GPA <3.0 and MCAT > 525

[Ebb908]

Does this happen often? What do adcoms think about these students? If I were one I would assume the student is smart but lazy, especially if they barely have an upward trend. With a strong upward trend I would see it as a comeback. What do you think? Do people even get accepted with these stats without doing a post bacc?

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[rufflev]

Does this happen often? What do adcoms think about these students? If I were one I would assume the student is smart but lazy, especially if they barely have an upward trend. With a strong upward trend I would see it as a comeback. What do you think? Do people even get accepted with these stats without doing a post bacc?

I agree that this could be viewed as a come back as the last 60 hours of your undergraduate education is more indicative of your current self (and respective study habits) than you four years ago. That being said, these students can be accepted at some schools, but many schools have GPA cut offs implemented as a pre-screening method, so at these schools, these students wouldn't even have a shot - and even if they did, it'd be really difficult for MD and most DO schools.

 

[libertyyne]

There were 23 students who meet these critieria in aamc table a-24.4 . 6 students matriculated. We can't tell if the ones who matriculated were actually students from smp programs had linkage post bacs or strong upward trends from the data . It is a bad strategy. Stay in school and study.

 

[Lawpy]

Does this happen often? What do adcoms think about these students? If I were one I would assume the student is smart but lazy, especially if they barely have an upward trend. With a strong upward trend I would see it as a comeback. What do you think? Do people even get accepted with these stats without doing a post bacc?

"Smart but lazy" is a bad phrase that's spread across SDN for some reason. People with sub-3.0 GPA have that for various reasons such as tragic history, personal problems, external factors etc. they usually did not think of medical school at that time and when they did consider, they weren't aware that all grades are factored into GPA.

So they begin to attack their coursework and have a massive upward trend. They are usually smart and so can demolish the MCAT with 520+. Their GPA profile becomes misleading that they are given terrible advice to apply to SMP, when sustained upward trends show otherwise. In these cases, they can apply with their GPA from recent years of coursework and enjoy a cycle similar to that of a 3.9+/520+.

 

[Turkishking]

It can definitely happen. The poor GPA + Stellar MCAT in most cases suggests that the individual is smart, but he/she is lazy. Stellar GPA + poor MCAT can usually mean inflated GPA, not a rigorous institution, or poor study habits.

 

[markovchn123]

This is so rare, it's more likely that someone with a sub 3.0 GPA will not do good on the MCAT because they did not do well in their coursework, which is the foundation for MCAT preparation

 

[Turkishking]

This is so rare, it's more likely that someone with a sub 3.0 GPA will not do good on the MCAT because they did not do well in their coursework, which is the foundation for MCAT preparation

indeed, but it can happen.

 

[markovchn123]

indeed, but it can happen.

Lighting can also strike twice in the same place and I could win a million dollars in the lottery today. These stories shouldn't be used as inspiration because they are exceedingly rare

 

[gyngyn]

Perceived reasons for this disparity include
1. medical problems
2. psych problems
3. family problems
4. other inter-personal (relationship)
5. drugs
6. economic problems
7. all (or any of) the above with poor counseling
8. all the above with failure to listen to good counseling
9. legal problems related to above

 

[mimelim]

I'm so glad that adcoms take this kind of stuff into account! /s (we all know they don't)

I'm so glad that pre-meds realize that medical school admissions is not all about them.

 

[Semmelweiser]

By no means can I claim a 525, but I did apply with a 518 and a sub 3.0 GPA. In my situation the typically perceived reasons were correct: a combination of physical and mental health factors contributed to major lapses in performance. While I owned those lapses and discussed them openly (so they didn't have to speculate), at no point did admissions convey a view of perceiving me as lazy.

It's not fair to say that admissions committees don't consider the context associated with disparate application numbers. If that was the case, I wouldn't be where I am today.

 

[Goro]

A number of Ds and Fs in the FR and/or SO year can crater a cGPA, even with 2-3 years of subsequent stellar performance. That's why we look at GPA trends, and not mere numbers. There are med schools that do reward reinvention.

 

[deleted446889]

By no means can I claim a 525, but I did apply with a 518 and a sub 3.0 GPA. In my situation the typically perceived reasons were correct: a combination of physical and mental health factors contributed to major lapses in performance. While I owned those lapses and discussed them openly (so they didn't have to speculate), at no point did admissions convey a view of perceiving me as lazy.

It's not fair to say that admissions committees don't consider the context associated with disparate application numbers. If that was the case, I wouldn't be where I am today.

Great job. Did you have a big upward trend or post-bacc work?

Also I agree that the "smart but lazy" label isn't fair. If they were really smart, they would know better than to let their GPA go down the drain, and if they were lazy, they would never score that high on the MCAT. No one just walks in and scores 520+, especially if they didn't do well in the pre-reqs!

 

[Dox4lyfe]

According to the assistant dean of admissions at jhu, even a very high mcat cannot make up for a low gpa.

You would either need an extraordinary upwards trend or take a fifth year or post -bac and kill it. You basically need to prove to them that you have the brains to succeed in med school.

 

[ScreenName23]

According to the assistant dean of admissions at jhu, even a very high mcat cannot make up for a low gpa.

You would either need an extraordinary upwards trend or take a fifth year or post -bac and kill it. You basically need to prove to them that you have the brains to succeed in med school.

Yes well jhu keeps a tight leash on GPAs. A 3.7 GPA would be at a significant disadvantage applying to jhu. This doesn't reflect the general practices of most medical schools that may take into account extraneous factors that contribute to gpa and give students a second chance.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

"Smart but lazy" is a bad phrase that's spread across SDN for some reason. People with sub-3.0 GPA have that for various reasons such as tragic history, personal problems, external factors etc. they usually did not think of medical school at that time and when they did consider, they weren't aware that all grades are factored into GPA.

So they begin to attack their coursework and have a massive upward trend. They are usually smart and so can demolish the MCAT with 520+. Their GPA profile becomes misleading that they are given terrible advice to apply to SMP, when sustained upward trends show otherwise. In these cases, they can apply with their GPA from recent years of coursework and enjoy a cycle similar to that of a 3.9+/520+.

More often than not it is laziness. Sure there are some cases where something tragic might happen but saying it's all external factors and nothing to do with their own shortcomings is just making excuses. And more often than not people with a low GPA don't have the MCAT either. This is an exception.

 

[Peach Newport]

It's extremely rare that an MD program will consider a candidate with a sub-3.0. It virtually never happens. When they do, it's virtually always a URM. Even a perfect MCAT score won't save you from a sub-3.0.

I applied (stupidly) to 40 MD schools (very "bottom heavy") with a 34 mcat and a 3.2 GPA. My major was a "hard science" major from an Ivy League school. I had incredibly meaningful clinical and volunteering, and glowing letters of recommendation. I had an upward trend in GPA, with my last years being 3.5 and 3.6. Zero interviews.

I had a close friend who had a similar GPA and managed a 41. She had 6 first-author publications. She applied bottom-heavy and also got zero interviews.

The only person I know who got an an MD school with a GPA below 3.1 was a guy who got into his state MD school because he was from a very wealthy and politically connected family. Not "my mom knows the dean" connected. More like "My dad singlehandedly decides the outcome of the governor's election" connected.

 

[Semmelweiser]

Great job. Did you have a big upward trend or post-bacc work?

I completed a DIY post-bacc that amounted to 16 credits (though only 8 were completed at the time of application), while also having approximately 30 credits from a masters of public health program. My trend certainly wasn't upward, but followed a sort of cyclical pattern between semesters where I demonstrated high achievement (near perfect 4.0s), and low achievement (0.0's, withdrawals, 1.5's, etc). It's the kind of record that probably lead to them asking "will he be able to consistently engage with the material" more than "can he handle the material".

I fully acknowledge that my case is a relative outlier (with what could be classified as 10ish years of application recovery, albeit indirect), but I am glad to serve as a counterpoint to the "Adcoms are number crunching automatons", "it's impossible to get into an MD school with 0.0's/withdrawals/serious academic lapses on your record", "you have to be <demographic/social trait> to get in" chatter that can sometimes overtake these boards.

 

[JB50]

By no means can I claim a 525, but I did apply with a 518 and a sub 3.0 GPA. In my situation the typically perceived reasons were correct: a combination of physical and mental health factors contributed to major lapses in performance. While I owned those lapses and discussed them openly (so they didn't have to speculate), at no point did admissions convey a view of perceiving me as lazy.

It's not fair to say that admissions committees don't consider the context associated with disparate application numbers. If that was the case, I wouldn't be where I am today.

We were almost classmates... I think WMED has one of the most in-depth applications with everything you had to do just to get an interview there. I wonder how many interviewees get in.

 

[Lawpy]

It's extremely rare that an MD program will consider a candidate with a sub-3.0. It virtually never happens. When they do, it's virtually always a URM. Even a perfect MCAT score won't save you from a sub-3.0.

I applied (stupidly) to 40 MD schools (very "bottom heavy") with a 34 mcat and a 3.2 GPA. My major was a "hard science" major from an Ivy League school. I had incredibly meaningful clinical and volunteering, and glowing letters of recommendation. I had an upward trend in GPA, with my last years being 3.5 and 3.6. Zero interviews.

I had a close friend who had a similar GPA and managed a 41. She had 6 first-author publications. She applied bottom-heavy and also got zero interviews.

The only person I know who got an an MD school with a GPA below 3.1 was a guy who got into his state MD school because he was from a very wealthy and politically connected family. Not "my mom knows the dean" connected. More like "My dad singlehandedly decides the outcome of the governor's election" connected.

I think applying too low is the culprit. Low tiers yield protect against applicants with strong MCAT scores regardless of GPA. Someone with a 3.4/40+ has a better chance getting into WashU/NYU/Penn/Pritzker than NYMC/Drexel/Albany etc.

 

[freak7]

I have had atypical nontrads candidates who had near 3.0 and great MCATs. usually these are ones who truly screw up in the first attempt at college, drop out, go on to do something else, go back to school and excel. This kind of disparity is the type that must be mentioned in the PS but usually is part of a unusual life story that it makes for a compelling read.

Ahhhh you got me.

 

[cactusman]

There were 23 students who meet these critieria in aamc table a-24.4 . 6 students matriculated. We can't tell if the ones who matriculated were actually students from smp programs had linkage post bacs or strong upward trends from the data . It is a bad strategy. Stay in school and study.

Just to clarify, that's 23 students with a sub-3.0 and 39-45. I doubt any had above a 525 because a vanishingly small number of people with any GPA score that high.

 

[libertyyne]

I think applying too low is the culprit. Low tiers yield protect against applicants with strong MCAT scores regardless of GPA. Someone with a 3.4/40+ has a better chance getting into WashU/NYU/Penn/Pritzker than NYMC/Drexel/Albany etc.

Should have still gotten some love from state schools and a 34 is not a 40. 3.4 , 34 = lm 68

 

[Lawpy]

Should have still gotten some love from state schools and a 34 is not a 40. 3.4 , 34 = lm 68

Yeah true. I wasn't referring to them in particular but it's just an example of the dangers of applying to too many low tiers. I consider state schools a separate category from low tiers (usually referring to private schools), but yeah that's always the best option. No idea whether they're from a state with good state schools to apply to though.

 

[libertyyne]

Just to clarify, that's 23 students with a sub-3.0 and 39-45. I doubt any had above a 525 because a vanishingly small number of people with any GPA score that high.

Si.

 

[SkiBum8]

I'll add my two cents. I certainly don't have a 525 MCAT, but I applied with a <3.0GPA and a 518 MCAT.

I also wanted to say - a 3.0 is NOT a bad GPA. To everyone saying "These are the folks who are dropping out, have medical problems, are doing drugs, etc," you are just wrong. You can graduate with a 3.0GPA by consistently getting straight Bs. Yes, when viewed through the lens of Medical school, a 3.0 is very low, but compared to the general population, you're doing just fine!

For me, I chugged along at school, did the work, but I was never purely focused on the academics. I was involved with and led many demanding activities that accounted for much of my time, and were outside the academic scope. I'm what you'd call a "well-rounded" applicant.

I think I had success with my application because virtually every other aspect of my application was strong, with my MCAT leading the way. I did an actual post-bac in which I did poorly, and then a DIY post-bac (5 years later) where I got straight As in my three courses.

So I'm honestly biased, but I think a high MCAT can make up for a lot more than you give it credit for...

 

[JB50]

I'll add my two cents. I certainly don't have a 525 MCAT, but I applied with a <3.0GPA and a 518 MCAT.

I also wanted to say - a 3.0 is NOT a bad GPA. To everyone saying "These are the folks who are dropping out, have medical problems, are doing drugs, etc," you are just wrong. You can graduate with a 3.0GPA by consistently getting straight Bs. Yes, when viewed through the lens of Medical school, a 3.0 is very low, but compared to the general population, you're doing just fine!

For me, I chugged along at school, did the work, but I was never purely focused on the academics. I was involved with and led many demanding activities that accounted for much of my time, and were outside the academic scope. I'm what you'd call a "well-rounded" applicant.

I think I had success with my application because virtually every other aspect of my application was strong, with my MCAT leading the way. I did an actual post-bac in which I did poorly, and then a DIY post-bac (5 years later) where I got straight As in my three courses.

So I'm honestly biased, but I think a high MCAT can make up for a lot more than you give it credit for...

You're a hell of a standardized test taker and thats what pulled you through. Congrats! See you in the field.

 

[libertyyne]

I'll add my two cents. I certainly don't have a 525 MCAT, but I applied with a <3.0GPA and a 518 MCAT.

I also wanted to say - a 3.0 is NOT a bad GPA. To everyone saying "These are the folks who are dropping out, have medical problems, are doing drugs, etc," you are just wrong. You can graduate with a 3.0GPA by consistently getting straight Bs. Yes, when viewed through the lens of Medical school, a 3.0 is very low, but compared to the general population, you're doing just fine!

For me, I chugged along at school, did the work, but I was never purely focused on the academics. I was involved with and led many demanding activities that accounted for much of my time, and were outside the academic scope. I'm what you'd call a "well-rounded" applicant.

I think I had success with my application because virtually every other aspect of my application was strong, with my MCAT leading the way. I did an actual post-bac in which I did poorly, and then a DIY post-bac (5 years later) where I got straight As in my three courses.

So I'm honestly biased, but I think a high MCAT can make up for a lot more than you give it credit for...

A high MCAT is probably the single most important part of an application. That being said, most schools don't end up with 10th percentiles above 3.3 by regularly accepting a large number of applicants with gpas below that. Your succuess might have to do more with the fact that you are quite removed from your ug gpa.

 

[Lawpy]

I'll add my two cents. I certainly don't have a 525 MCAT, but I applied with a <3.0GPA and a 518 MCAT.

I also wanted to say - a 3.0 is NOT a bad GPA. To everyone saying "These are the folks who are dropping out, have medical problems, are doing drugs, etc," you are just wrong. You can graduate with a 3.0GPA by consistently getting straight Bs. Yes, when viewed through the lens of Medical school, a 3.0 is very low, but compared to the general population, you're doing just fine!

For me, I chugged along at school, did the work, but I was never purely focused on the academics. I was involved with and led many demanding activities that accounted for much of my time, and were outside the academic scope. I'm what you'd call a "well-rounded" applicant.

I think I had success with my application because virtually every other aspect of my application was strong, with my MCAT leading the way. I did an actual post-bac in which I did poorly, and then a DIY post-bac (5 years later) where I got straight As in my three courses.

So I'm honestly biased, but I think a high MCAT can make up for a lot more than you give it credit for...

I'm curious to know where you got accepted because if your MCAT is above the 90th percentile of the school you got accepted, you managed to convince the adcoms to take you in and avoid yield protection thanks to other parts of your application.

 

[JB50]

I'm curious to know where you got accepted because if your MCAT is above the 90th percentile of the school you got accepted, you managed to convince the adcoms to take you in and avoid yield protection thanks to other parts of your application.

What? the GPA doesn't warrant yield protection in the least bit.

 

[Lawpy]

What? the GPA doesn't warrant yield protection in the least bit.

Right but the MCAT can and probably does. Schools yield protect based on MCAT scores, not so much on GPAs.

 

[JB50]

Right but the MCAT can and probably does. Schools yield protect based on MCAT scores, not so much on GPAs.

There's no way they yield protect someone with a 3.0 gpa. Are you serious or kidding with me?

 

[Lawpy]

There's no way they yield protect someone with a 3.0 gpa. Are you serious or kidding with me?

You think someone with a 3.0 and 520+ won't get yield protected by schools like Albany/NYMC/Drexel? Because while this is totally anecdotal, the people with these stats tend to get shut out completely by these schools and yet somehow often gets interviews at schools like Pitt, NYU, Mayo, WashU etc.

 

[JB50]

You think someone with a 3.0 and 520+ won't get yield protected by schools like Albany/NYMC/Drexel? Because while this is totally anecdotal, the people with these stats tend to get shut out completely by these schools and yet somehow often gets interviews at schools like Pitt, NYU, Mayo, WashU etc.

No I don't unless they are URM. While I'm not an ADCOM, just on the basis of what yield-protection is, there's no reason for them to protect against a single attribute that's high when another one is so low.

 

[Lawpy]

No I don't unless they are URM. While I'm not an ADCOM, just on the basis of what yield-protection is, there's no reason for them to protect against a single attribute that's high when another one is so low.

The reason is that the MCAT is standardized and the GPA is not. A sub-3.0 GPA is also misleading when people have last few years work of near-4.0 GPA performance but screwed up badly early on when they weren't thinking about medicine.

 

[JB50]

The reason is that the MCAT is standardized and the GPA is not. A sub-3.0 GPA is also misleading when people have last few years work of near-4.0 GPA performance but screwed up badly early on when they weren't thinking about medicine.

ok you win lawper geez

 

[libertyyne]

I was in a similar situation as this poster,although not as extreme, and I was not yeild protected at lower tier schools . Making a school list is difficult with high MCAT and low gpa.

 

[Lawpy]

I was in a similar situation as this poster,although not as extreme, and I was not yeild protected at lower tier schools . Making a school list is difficult with high MCAT and low gpa.

Then something else in your application persuaded adcoms in those schools to interview/accept you. Low GPA/high MCAT combination is a difficult situation but the bigger problem has to do with the high MCAT than low GPA. The low GPA can be alleviated by sustained upward GPA trends.

 

[JB50]

I was in a similar situation as this poster,although not as extreme, and I was not yeild protected at lower tier schools . Making a school list is difficult with high MCAT and low gpa.

Dude you had a lizzy m of like 72-86

 

[TX1000]

By no means can I claim a 525, but I did apply with a 518 and a sub 3.0 GPA. In my situation the typically perceived reasons were correct: a combination of physical and mental health factors contributed to major lapses in performance. While I owned those lapses and discussed them openly (so they didn't have to speculate), at no point did admissions convey a view of perceiving me as lazy.

It's not fair to say that admissions committees don't consider the context associated with disparate application numbers. If that was the case, I wouldn't be where I am today.

Your post is inspiring to me I am about to enter my senior year with just about a 3.0 GPA and a 2.7 sGPA, but have a 520 MCAT score. I am hoping to keep up my upward trend, and graduate with a GPA slightly higher, but yeah - people in the "really low GPA - high MCAT" boat do exist....gotta do our best to make it across, and not drown!!

Lighting can also strike twice in the same place and I could win a million dollars in the lottery today. These stories shouldn't be used as inspiration because they are exceedingly rare

That sentence makes me feel sorta special, even though this is a pretty bad situation to be in LOL.

You think someone with a 3.0 and 520+ won't get yield protected by schools like Albany/NYMC/Drexel? Because while this is totally anecdotal, the people with these stats tend to get shut out completely by these schools and yet somehow often gets interviews at schools like Pitt, NYU, Mayo, WashU etc.

Man...that would actually be pretty dope if I got interviews at ANY of those places with my stats (I'm planning to apply after my senior year is up). If all goes well my senior year, I'll hopefully have just around a 3.2 ish GPA with a 3.1 ish sGPA, with a 520 MCAT by application time. But chances seem sorta grim - browsing around in SDN on past forums, it seems that many applicants that did well with these stats seem to either A) have awesome life experiences (typically nontrad), like working in the military/peace corps and are many years removed from school or B) do a highly recognized SMP and get like a 3.8+. I fall in none of those categories haha. I'm a Texan resident, and knowing the GPA-heavy nature of these schools, I'm also wary of my chances of staying in-state with these stats.

The only thing I MIGHT have on my side is that I do attend a "top 10" school, but even that doesn't really seem to matter much for med admissions at all (searching the forums, the consensus is pretty wishy-washy it seems) . The only people that care about the so-called "prestige" are the finance/consulting companies which recruit from these campuses. The med schools look more for merit via GPA/MCAT regardless of where it comes (as they should, tbh....I'm just at the bottom now, so any leg up is a leg I appreciate, but not necessarily deserve )

 

[Walter Raleigh]

According to the assistant dean of admissions at jhu, even a very high mcat cannot make up for a low gpa.

You would either need an extraordinary upwards trend or take a fifth year or post -bac and kill it. You basically need to prove to them that you have the brains to succeed in med school.

Fail out your first year with a 0.0. Take a year off to do Americorps, and then come back and earn four straight years of 4.0, first at a community college and then at a four year school. Top it off with a 520+ MCAT, and you've got a very good story.

 

[Oncie]

It's extremely rare that an MD program will consider a candidate with a sub-3.0. It virtually never happens. When they do, it's virtually always a URM. Even a perfect MCAT score won't save you from a sub-3.0.

I applied (stupidly) to 40 MD schools (very "bottom heavy") with a 34 mcat and a 3.2 GPA. My major was a "hard science" major from an Ivy League school. I had incredibly meaningful clinical and volunteering, and glowing letters of recommendation. I had an upward trend in GPA, with my last years being 3.5 and 3.6. Zero interviews.

I had a close friend who had a similar GPA and managed a 41. She had 6 first-author publications. She applied bottom-heavy and also got zero interviews.

The only person I know who got an an MD school with a GPA below 3.1 was a guy who got into his state MD school because he was from a very wealthy and politically connected family. Not "my mom knows the dean" connected. More like "My dad singlehandedly decides the outcome of the governor's election" connected.

Sheesh...I hope it worked out for you though

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Now, I wonder if a couple years of 3.8+ in a DIY postbacc, several first-author pubs, and a 523+ MCAT can save you from a sub-3.0 GPA. @Goro, do you know of anyone that's not URM or veteran and managed to redeem themselves like this and earn admission to an MD school?

 

[radiculating spines]

Does this happen often? What do adcoms think about these students? If I were one I would assume the student is smart but lazy, especially if they barely have an upward trend. With a strong upward trend I would see it as a comeback. What do you think? Do people even get accepted with these stats without doing a post bacc?

Regardless of any anecdotes you might hear, this definitely does not happen often. A 525 on the MCAT is the ~99.9th percentile. About 50,000 people apply per year, so there are only about 50 applicants with MCATs over 525 per cycle. I imagine the fraction of them in a given year who also have a cGPA under 3.0 is ~0.

 

[Peach Newport]

Sheesh...I hope it worked out for you though

I did an SMP, got a 4.0, which earned me one (1) DO acceptance.