gpa vs. mcats - your choice

[doctorFred]

what say you?

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[JayQuah]

MCAT fo sheeze

 

[jebus]

gpa - shows a long-term ability to succeed at a high level.

 

[doctorFred]

it's interesting.. to me, i think very high mcat but very low gpa means extremely intelligent, but not that hard working, while high gpa and low mcat means very hard working, but not overly brilliant. and, to be honestly, i think med schools would rather have someone who's more hard-working than smart, versus the converse.

 

[BerkeleyMD]

My 3.7 and 29 worked out, so I'd go with GPA>MCAT.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

IMO only 3.8 with 28 MCAT + great ECs has the best chance out of those three. 3.00 + 40 MCAT just shows the guy's brilliant, but doesn't have the dedication/perseverance. 3.30 + 31 MCAT still lacks in the GPA department.

 

[SailCrazy]

I understand the need for a simplfied poll, but more detail would help. What is the undergrad school? Is the GPA consistent all the way through or very low initially and then sky-high later on? Those factors can dramatically alter the quality of the GPA.

I went with the high MCAT, but all of the given options will get you in somewhere, which is the most important thing afterall!

 

[Gatewayhoward]

What about less than stellar GPA and MCAT but stellar interview and volunteer work and/or experience in the healthcare field? what say you?

 

[QofQuimica]

Everyone will want what they don't have. No one is able to gain admission to every medical school they want, no matter what their stats are. In my case, I can't blame it on my MCAT, so I'll look to my GPA. Other people have great GPAs and average MCATs like your third example, and they'll write it off as having too low of an MCAT. I don't think that this poll is really all that helpful, and I agree with Sail that people with all three of those stat combos would be able to get into med school SOMEWHERE.

 

[tacrum43]

I voted for 3.8/28, but I really don't think that the poll options are equivalent. For example, a 3.0 GPA is much more "bad" than a 28 MCAT. Far more people get in with a 28 than a 3.0.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

I'll take the 3.8 please. Graduating with "the highest honors" (summa cum laude or whatever) is a nice bonus. Meanwhile you could retake the MCAT easily to bring that score up, but bringing up a GPA? That's a pain in the neck.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

What about less than stellar GPA and MCAT but stellar interview and volunteer work and/or experience in the healthcare field? what say you?

Probably not good enough... IMO solid GPA + MCAT score are like the most basic requirements for med school students. I think you can still make it w/ crap ECs but stellar GPA + MCAT if you excel in your interviews. If you have low GPA/MCAT you won't even get an interview in the first place.

 

[SailCrazy]

What about less than stellar GPA and MCAT but stellar interview and volunteer work and/or experience in the healthcare field? what say you?

If the lower GPA & MCAT haven't prevented you from receiving the interview invite, then a stellar interview will probably seal the deal for you. Getting the interview that would be the big challenge... You can't exactly list (great interviewee) as and AMCAS attribute!

 

[doctorFred]

i guess i probably should have specified "all other things being equal" in the initial poll.. also, i'd probably change the middle option to something closer to a 3.4 gpa. but mostly, the poll was about seeing if people (put in a situation where they had to choose between the two) would rather have a high gpa/low mcat or low gpa/high mcat.

 

[tigress]

It's really a hard (impossible?) question. I think personally I'm going to get rejected from a number of schools more due to GPA than anything, so part of me would go with the GPA. But on the other hand, something about my pride or arrogance would make it extremely hard for me to settle for a 28 on the MCAT (I'm not saying this is a bad score; my best friend got into her top choice with a 28, and I know she's smart; she also had a 3.9).

Hmm...so I guess GPA probably does win out. I also agree that people with any of those three combinations should be able to get into a med school as long as the rest of their application is adequate.

 

[Will Ferrell]

The 40/3.0! you have to be real smart to score that high and there's so many 3.9s running around that a high GPA isnt amazing. A 40 is rare and something to be real proud of. The high mcat kid knows his/her stuff much better than the 28, but the 3.8/28 will have a much easier time getting into medical school.

 

[Will Ferrell]

But on the other hand, something about my pride or arrogance would make it extremely hard for me to settle for a 28 on the MCAT (I'm not saying this is a bad score; my best friend got into her top choice with a 28, and I know she's smart; she also had a 3.9).

Yea, really. If I had a 3.9, I wouldn't settle for it and i'd retake the test as many times as possible. I wouldn't want to be viewed as an overachiever.

 

[cfdavid]

The 40/3.0! you have to be real smart to score that high and there's so many 3.9s running around that a high GPA isnt amazing. A 40 is rare and something to be real proud of. The high mcat kid knows his/her stuff much better than the 28, but the 3.8/28 will have a much easier time getting into medical school.

I agree. That 40 will really turn some heads. I think it'll get you in the door, and then it's up to you to explain away a less than ideal GPA.

 

[45408]

I'd take the lower MCAT. You can always re-take the MCAT, and even if you couldn't, you can explain it away a lot more easily, IMO. The danger is that the school might think your classes must have been really easy.

 

[FictionalGirl]

TO THOSE OF YOU WHO PICKED A 3.8 AND A 28 , LET ME TELL YA SOMETHING

I have a 3.8 and a 28S MCAT and got rejected almost everywhere, only two interviews, and only one school to hear back from. sad sad sad. and a 4.0 in my sciences!!! you want that mcat!

 

[QuantumMechanic]

GPA is just too arbitrary to give too much importance too. Some schools dont do the plus/minus system which would dramatically alter some people's gpas. One could easily avoid hard professors and find pushovers that give A's to anyone willing to kiss enough ass and study hard enough. Easy state schools make gettting a 4.0 about as easy as getting drunk at the office christmas party with an open bar. The MCAT is an objective test that can distinguish one more than a great GPA. A 40+ on the mcat is so much more rare than a 4.0 gpa. Like it or not, a bad mcat can keep you out of medical school despite maybe not indicating one's ability to put in the effort to succeed in med school like gpa's may indicate.

 

[jebus]

Whatever, FG, I've got a 3.4 and 36 and I have no interviews. I'd kill for your GPA. I'm tired of killing... urge to kill falling.
I think Q hit the nail on the head: We all want what we don't have. For instance, I also want a pop out set of platinum teeth because I don't have one. Hello, Santa, can you hear me? He doesn't listen to us non-christians, does he? Ah, maybe next year.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

I voted for the 3.8... A 3.0 is really low and would be weeded out by most schools even with a 40. If it had been a 3.2, I would have voted for the 40. If the 3.8 had been a 3.7, I probably would have voted for the 40 as well.

 

[Spooner]

I voted for the 3.8... A 3.0 is really low and would be weeded out by most schools even with a 40. If it had been a 3.2, I would have voted for the 40. If the 3.8 had been a 3.7, I probably would have voted for the 40 as well.

Beside, it will take longer to recover a bad GPA than a bad MCAT.

 

[hannahx]

While I agree with the majority that a 3.8 is a better indicator of your dedication to academics rather than a 3.0. That said, I still think that a 40 on your MCATs opens more doors which could allow you to explain your lower GPA.

But really, what can we do? Hope for the best, work really hard for top notch numbers.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

While I agree with the majority that a 3.8 is a better indicator of your dedication to academics rather than a 3.0. That said, I still think that a 40 on your MCATs opens more doors which could allow you to explain your lower GPA.

But really, what can we do? Hope for the best, work really hard for top notch numbers.

That's true, although the opposite could be said: It would be just as easy to explain one bad test day than 4 years-worth of below-average grades...and I do think you would be given more chances for "explaining" with a 3.8 than 3.0, regardless of MCATs. I agree, though, in real life nobody will be "choosing" from any of the above

 

[Shredder]

intelligence dwarfs work ethic as a personal trait. even janitors and trash men are hard working. intelligence has the option of crushing hard work but hard work never has the option of beating intelligence, assuming circumstances that mandate hard work. thats why i loved kumar in harold and kumar, in spite of his shortcomings. innate talent is everything

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

intelligence w/ out work ethic is NOTHING. i'm sick of seeing talented people who just waste their lives doing nothing because they have no work ethic. i have a friend who I KNOW is about as smart as I am (33 MCAT) but he had problems keeping up w/ his grades (3.3ish GPA) and he got rejected from every school that he applied to. His laziness got him nowhere and I feel terrible for him but it clearly showed that intelligence w/ out hard work won't get you anywhere.

even if people aren't too intelligent, just think how much more productive the world would be when you have people who are dedicated/motivated. i'd have more respect for an uneducated janitor who is hard-working than a genius who simply drinks his life away.

a med school student should have BOTH intelligence and dedication. i guess it's pretty meaningless to have a poll like this actually because i think people lacking in either one better have a good explanation or else they're toast.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

just some food for thought. A high GPA and average MCAT can lead to the appearance of grade inflation (the school attended gives higher grades than it should etc.) I had a friend who had a 3.9 and scored a 29. He applied to numerous schools and only got one interview. He was pointedly asked why his GPA was so high but his MCAT was not. It can be hard to explain that away while a high MCAT with a lower GPA may be a little easier to deal with. Its so subjective though.

 

[tigress]

TO THOSE OF YOU WHO PICKED A 3.8 AND A 28 , LET ME TELL YA SOMETHING

I have a 3.8 and a 28S MCAT and got rejected almost everywhere, only two interviews, and only one school to hear back from. sad sad sad. and a 4.0 in my sciences!!! you want that mcat!

I know somebody with a 3.6 and a 36 who got rejected everywhere, too. I mean, there are always going to be examples. Here's mine: as I said, my best friend had a 3.9 and a 28, and she got into her first choice school (which happens to be a top-40 USNews school), as well as both of her state schools. That is, she got into every school she interviewed at; after receiving those first acceptances she cancelled all her other interviews!

So what I'm saying is that a 28 doesn't necessarily hold you back. There's a lot more to the application, and I certainly know people who've done very well with relatively low MCAT scores. As a matter of fact, I know another person at a USNews ranked school (however important that is to you, it does say something about admissions) with a MCAT score of 27 (and I think a 3.9 or 4.0 GPA). Both of these people had good research, ECs, and great LORs.

And then you can find those examples of people with good GPAs and MCAT scores who still don't get in on their first try. So who knows? After thinking about it, though, I'd still stick with the 3.8 and 28, probably (although I'd probably re-take the MCAT )

 

[ballsbreaker]

me too! I have a 3.8 and 28Q and only one interview. i think high mcat with average gpa is better as it can get you an interview and you can explain away your gpa. plus wouldn't it depend on what type of classes you take...how hard/easy they are?

TO THOSE OF YOU WHO PICKED A 3.8 AND A 28 , LET ME TELL YA SOMETHING

I have a 3.8 and a 28S MCAT and got rejected almost everywhere, only two interviews, and only one school to hear back from. sad sad sad. and a 4.0 in my sciences!!! you want that mcat!

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

The smartest person in the world couldn't get through med school without a work ethic. It's not your intelligence that will wake you up at 5 and get you through a 14 hour rotation. Plus, since when did the MCAT become an intelligence test?

In my experience, a lot of 4.0-range students have these grades because they had little else going on during college. IMO anyone could get a 4.0 if they had 10 hours every night to study and obsess. If you have no real EC's on your app, you're going to need a good MCAT score to bail you out...

 

[Sinbadthesailor]

Plus, since when did the MCAT become an intelligence test? QUOTE]
If mcat is not in fact an intelligence test, then perhaps someone doing well on it also shows a good work ethic, just like someone getting a 4.0gpa??

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Plus, since when did the MCAT become an intelligence test? QUOTE]
If mcat is not in fact an intelligence test, then perhaps someone doing well on it also shows a good work ethic, just like someone getting a 4.0gpa??

Um, ill re-phrase that: There are a lot more ways to measure intelligence than someone's performance on a math and science test. Granted, a 40 is definitely an indicator that you are smart, but a 28 definitely does not mean you have "low intelligence"...

 

[doctorFred]

Um, ill re-phrase that: There are a lot more ways to measure intelligence than someone's performance on a math and science test. Granted, a 40 is definitely an indicator that you are smart, but a 28 definitely does not mean you have "low intelligence"...

i think "intelligence" is a very broad term. if you want to get technical, there are all sorts of factors that make up an individual's "intelligence"; even forgetting about formal iq tests, i think we can agree that it's comprised primarily of your attention span, your memory, and your problem solving/matrix reasoning skills. a lot of people have referenced "hard working" in this thread, but isn't it possible that "hard working" owes a lot to "attention span"?

in either case, there are certainly different qualities that lend to success on the mcats versus your overall gpa. i posted the poll initially because i'm somewhat (not as exaggerated) of an imbalance, with a 3.3 gpa and a 34, and was interested in what people thought of those sorts of disparities in general.

as someone mentioned above, my grades were hurt by my over-involvement in emergency medicine in college. i don't regret it, but it's given me something to explain during my interviews.

 

[JulioFly]

it's my personal opinion that a good MCAT and GPA will open doors for you (i.e. grant you interview invites) and the good extracurriculars will be what get you through it!

 

[shahalam]

intelligence w/ out work ethic is NOTHING. i'm sick of seeing talented people who just waste their lives doing nothing because they have no work ethic. i have a friend who I KNOW is about as smart as I am (33 MCAT) but he had problems keeping up w/ his grades (3.3ish GPA) and he got rejected from every school that he applied to. His laziness got him nowhere and I feel terrible for him but it clearly showed that intelligence w/ out hard work won't get you anywhere.

even if people aren't too intelligent, just think how much more productive the world would be when you have people who are dedicated/motivated. i'd have more respect for an uneducated janitor who is hard-working than a genius who simply drinks his life away.

a med school student should have BOTH intelligence and dedication. i guess it's pretty meaningless to have a poll like this actually because i think people lacking in either one better have a good explanation or else they're toast.

i agree with this person...that's all

 

[Orthodoc40]

It seems that far more people get accepted w/ so-so GPA's but solid MCAT scores, (3.3, 31) whereas the great GPA's and low scores don't as much (3.8, 25), and neither do the people with 40+ and bad GPA's (have you noticed the graphs in MSAR of accepted students drop off for those highest scores on the MCAT?). But a 28 is not a low score, even though people in these forums seem to think so.

 

[QofQuimica]

It seems that far more people get accepted w/ so-so GPA's but solid MCAT scores, (3.3, 31) whereas the great GPA's and low scores don't as much (3.8, 25), and neither do the people with 40+ and bad GPA's (have you noticed the graphs in MSAR of accepted students drop off for those highest scores on the MCAT?). But a 28 is not a low score, even though people in these forums seem to think so.

That's in large part because there are so few people who earn those extremely high scores. And I agree that 28 is not a "low" score. It's an "average" score. Average doesn't mean low or bad.

 

[Twitch]

That's in large part because there are so few people who earn those extremely high scores. And I agree that 28 is not a "low" score. It's an "average" score. Average doesn't mean low or bad.

Isn't the (national) average score actually lower than 28? It may vary each year though isn't it somewhere around 24 with ~8's in each of the section.

However on SDN the average I guess is 28

 

[NapeSpikes]

Isn't the (national) average score actually lower than 28? It may vary each year though isn't it somewhere around 24 with ~8's in each of the section.

However on SDN the average I guess is 28

yep, 24 for average of all takers, 27-28 for applicants.

35 for average SDNer.

 

[jebus]

Isn't the (national) average score actually lower than 28? It may vary each year though isn't it somewhere around 24 with ~8's in each of the section.

However on SDN the average I guess is 28

Average for applicants is 27. Average for matriculants is around 30.
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005mcatgpa.htm

And yeah, I've wondered why no one ever set up a poll to find the average (at least for respondents) here on SDN. We've had polls for every other stupid topic.

 

[QofQuimica]

Isn't the (national) average score actually lower than 28? It may vary each year though isn't it somewhere around 24 with ~8's in each of the section.

However on SDN the average I guess is 28

24 is the average for all test-takers. 27 is the average for applicants. It's a little higher, because of course many people who score very low won't apply.

 

[ghostchild]

24 is the average for all test-takers. 27 is the average for applicants. It's a little higher, because of course many people who score very low won't apply.

Do these numbers include DO schools?

And no this isn't a knock, but it is true that they admit students with a much lower average MCAT score from around 21-24.

I'm curious because several students from my school, after performing poorly on the MCAT decided just to apply to DO schools.

 

[Shredder]

all of the people who change the world are intelligent, not just hard working. so if you have to choose between one or the other in a med student, intelligence matters a lot more. medicine isnt like janitorial or trash pickup where hard work matters more. brains matter much more.

MCAT is designed to measure premeds acumen in the mental skills required to succeed as a doc. grades arent designed for that. theyre just a general measure of study habits.

 

[lexy10]

TO THOSE OF YOU WHO PICKED A 3.8 AND A 28 , LET ME TELL YA SOMETHING

I have a 3.8 and a 28S MCAT and got rejected almost everywhere, only two interviews, and only one school to hear back from. sad sad sad. and a 4.0 in my sciences!!! you want that mcat!

I have a 3.9 and a 29 and have 3 acceptances, 6 interviews (including Harvard and Mayo)...there is more to it than GPA and MCAT!!!

 

[lexy10]

all of the people who change the world are intelligent, not just hard working. so if you have to choose between one or the other in a med student, intelligence matters a lot more. medicine isnt like janitorial or trash pickup where hard work matters more. brains matter much more.

MCAT is designed to measure premeds acumen in the mental skills required to succeed as a doc. grades arent designed for that. theyre just a general measure of study habits.

I simply have to disagree with you. Sorry, but intelligence in terms of the MCAT is simply a measure of a single kind of intelligence… Your ability to take a certain type of exam. It can't measure your ability to work with people or act as a clinician. You may be brilliant, but if that brilliance can't be translated to helping your patients and having them be able to understand and respond to you, all that brilliance is nothing.

Knowledge can be obtained but drive must come from within. What use is a lazy doctor? You simply can not change the world without drive. Plenty of people change the world who are not renound for their intelligence, but rather for their humanity. Take Rosa Parks, Mother Theresa, and Mohandas Gandhi for example.

 

[doctorFred]

I simply have to disagree with you. Sorry, but intelligence in terms of the MCAT is simply a measure of a single kind of intelligence… Your ability to take a certain type of exam. It can't measure your ability to work with people or act as a clinician. You may be brilliant, but if that brilliance can't be translated to helping your patients and having them be able to understand and respond to you, all that brilliance is nothing.

Knowledge can be obtained but drive must come from within. What use is a lazy doctor? You simply can not change the world without drive. Plenty of people change the world who are not renound for their intelligence, but rather for their humanity. Take Rosa Parks, Mother Theresa, and Mohandas Gandhi for example.

agreed. although your examples of people who changed the world are a little heavy handed.

the sats measure how well you take the sats; the mcats measure how well you take the mcats.

 

[Paperboy!]

gpa - shows a long-term ability to succeed at a high level.

yeah but that completely depends on what school you went to! god it pisses me off that schools are chucking my application because i went to a really freaking hard school and got a 3.2 science. i couldn't gone to freakin [insert school here] and gotten a 4.0.

ok i feel better.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

all of the people who change the world are intelligent, not just hard working. so if you have to choose between one or the other in a med student, intelligence matters a lot more. medicine isnt like janitorial or trash pickup where hard work matters more. brains matter much more.

MCAT is designed to measure premeds acumen in the mental skills required to succeed as a doc. grades arent designed for that. theyre just a general measure of study habits.

With the exception of Einstein and certain artists, I can't think of many people who "changed the world" and were more intelligent than hardworking. Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Mother Teresa, most presidents, even the Donald, are all more hard working than intelligent. Many of them have both, but would have been nothing without hard work, not the other way around. Even Einstein was obsessive about his work.

The MCAT really has very little to do with intelligence. Of course, it takes a certain level of intelligence to do well on any test, but I agree with the others...A good MCAT means you are good at MCAT's.

btw, I have not taken the MCAT yet, so I would like to think that I am not biased..