GPR vs. associate right out of school

[nug]

What are the advantages of doing a GPR right out of school compared to working as an associate? For those of you that decided to do a GPR, why did you do one, and would you recommend that a new grad do one? Does the experience outweigh the loss of income?
Thanks

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[groundhog]

OK, here is one reason to go GPR. You and your spouse are in the same dental school. You just graduated but your spouse has one year to go and may want to specialize. So, you match to a local GPR and make a living while waiting for your spouse's future to become more clear.

 

[unlvdmd]

OK, here is one reason to go GPR. You and your spouse are in the same dental school. You just graduated but your spouse has one year to go and may want to specialize. So, you match to a local GPR and make a living while waiting for your spouse's future to become more clear.

Yeah, cause that happens a lot! Jk Good luck with that!

 

[Biogirl361]

to go along with the original question, do you think doing a gpr/aegd for a year or two would give you enough practice to just start up on your own rather than associating?

 

[shopaholic]

to go along with the original question, do you think doing a gpr/aegd for a year or two would give you enough practice to just start up on your own rather than associating?

It all comes down to confidence. When you graduate and get your license, you know how to do everything. Your speed will come. If you feel like you want the safety net of doing a residency, then go ahead. But you can just start out on your own.

 

[12YearOldKid]

When you graduate and get your license, you know how to do everything.

 

[kenniemd]

It all comes down to confidence. When you graduate and get your license, you know how to do everything.

 

[shopaholic]

I guess it all depends on where you graduate from.

 

[koobpheej]

I guess it all depends on where you graduate from.

no matter where you graduate, you are within a few steps of barely competent. whether you are 2 steps or 5 steps ahead of barely competent may depend on the school (so you may be slightly better than barely competent). if you think you know everything when you graduate, i feel sorry for your patients.

 

[shopaholic]

no matter where you graduate, you are within a few steps of barely competent. whether you are 2 steps or 5 steps ahead of barely competent may depend on the school (so you may be slightly better than barely competent). if you think you know everything when you graduate, i feel sorry for your patients.

Obviously you keep learning new stuff, but you should know the basics of comprehensive care. If a tooth is restorable, you should be able to it. You'll get faster and more efficient, but how much more is there to know about an ideal prep? Plus didn't you ever shadow other dentists? They go so fast that their quality is probably worse than when they first left school. Thousands of dentists start practices right out and their patients are doing just fine. The only patients I feel sorry for are those we see during our junior year.

 

[drben]

Obviously you keep learning new stuff, but you should know the basics of comprehensive care. If a tooth is restorable, you should be able to it. You'll get faster and more efficient, but how much more is there to know about an ideal prep? Plus didn't you ever shadow other dentists? They go so fast that their quality is probably worse than when they first left school. Thousands of dentists start practices right out and their patients are doing just fine. The only patients I feel sorry for are those we see during our junior year.

It is true that you know the "basics" (eg. whether or not a "tooth is restorable") but you don't have the experience to provide COMPREHENSIVE dental care. Comprehensive care is more than just filling holes, and placing "caps"...The sad thing is that there are dentists who have been out for 15+ years that haven't yet realized this

 

[lnn2]

It is true that you know the "basics" (eg. whether or not a "tooth is restorable") but you don't have the experience to provide COMPREHENSIVE dental care. Comprehensive care is more than just filling holes, and placing "caps"...The sad thing is that there are dentists who have been out for 15+ years that haven't yet realized this

True! That's why it's not unusual to see screwed up cases from private practices showing up in dental school.
Dschool only gives you a (strong/good) foundation for you to build upon. Much of the learning happens when you're practicing. It's up to you to improve your technical, diagnosis, tx plan...skills.

 

[shopaholic]

It is true that you know the "basics" (eg. whether or not a "tooth is restorable") but you don't have the experience to provide COMPREHENSIVE dental care. Comprehensive care is more than just filling holes, and placing "caps"...The sad thing is that there are dentists who have been out for 15+ years that haven't yet realized this

When I said comprehensive care, I meant knowing your limits...ie when to refer.

 

[jdmd]

It all comes down to confidence. When you graduate and get your license, you know how to do everything. Your speed will come. If you feel like you want the safety net of doing a residency, then go ahead. But you can just start out on your own.

if you were to change the word everything to nothing, then that statement might be alittle more accurate. Talk to ANYONE who has finished school, and they will be of the same opinion. Nevertheless, thats got to be the single handed most uninformed comment I have seen on this website (and this website is FULL of misinformation).

 

[airvent]

Even if you open a practice immediately after you graduate it still takes time to build a patient base(1-2 years depending on location). So it may be a good idea to work as an associate a few days a week as you build your practice. Working as an associate will pay more than what you would make as a fresh new office.
ALso, it helps to see how an office is run. There is alot to running an office. There are difficulties that you won't know until you experience them.
So i would say work as an associate...enjoy your fat check, with no headaches while you research opening an office.

 

[shopaholic]

if you were to change the word everything to nothing, then that statement might be alittle more accurate. Talk to ANYONE who has finished school, and they will be of the same opinion. Nevertheless, thats got to be the single handed most uninformed comment I have seen on this website (and this website is FULL of misinformation).

Please. I just finished school, and I know enough to get out there and work. Maybe I don't know exactly how to do complicated perio or endo procedures, but I do know when something is out of my comfort zone, and I do know how to refer. All of my classmates are competent enough to do ops, remo, fixed, oms, etc. I feel so sorry for you all who have the confidence level of a monkey. If you honestly don't feel like you can cut it out there in the real world then maybe you should reconsider your career. I have friends who did GPR's and it's not like they hold your hand. You're treating patients from day one on your own. You are a dr. Start acting like one.

 

[Geezer99]

if you were to change the word everything to nothing, then that statement might be alittle more accurate. Talk to ANYONE who has finished school, and they will be of the same opinion. Nevertheless, thats got to be the single handed most uninformed comment I have seen on this website (and this website is FULL of misinformation).

I graduated last year and have been practicing in private practice for the past year. Obviously you don't know "everything" when you graduate, but you definetely (if you halfway paid attention and worked in the clinic) have the ability to provide comprehensive care to your patients. I'm sure that there are some of you out there who only study off the test files, and do the absolute minimum in clinic and yes, you will probably be putting your patients at risk when you graduate....post-graduate study might be good for you. (except if you are that lazy, then you probably can't get into any residency anyway). Maybe GPR's and AEGD's should accept the lowest GPA applicants instead of the highest. Point is, don't be afraid that you are going to be incompetent when you graduate and that post graduate study is a necessity. It was difficult at first to trust my instincts, and make all the decisions on my own, but I survived...and so did my patients!

 

[ISU_Steve]

The only way I'll do a GPR is if it's a licensure requirement (like it is becoming in a few places from what I've read).

 

[grant555]

What are the advantages of doing a GPR right out of school compared to working as an associate? For those of you that decided to do a GPR, why did you do one, and would you recommend that a new grad do one? Does the experience outweigh the loss of income?
Thanks

Actually, completing a GPR does have some advantages. In New York, for instance, a GPR can be substituted for the NERB exam. See here: http://www.op.nysed.gov/dentlic.htm#dentres

Most general dentists I have encountered have never completed a residency, but I know some that have. In all, it seems to be an individual decision to determine if you are reasonably trained after graduation and whether or not completing a residency is necessary or in some cases financially feasible. A dentist I shadowed in Dallas, a Baylor grad, said no one in her graduating class completed a GPR or an AEGD, and it seemed to be only a reason to put off practicing for a year. This is one person's opinion, but reasonable given the high clinical competency of the average Baylor graduate. Take care and GOD Bless.

 

[ISU_Steve]

Honestly, I don't see any difference between the general dentists I have worked with and the one I know who completed a GPR.

As Grant's friend said, it's just a way to keep you from getting out and making a living for a year.

As for someone who mentioned about GPR being an alternative for a year as associate, I have no idea, but it would seem to be a comparable level of experience (a busy practice and a GPR) at least that's the way the one dentist I know who did a GPR put it (Quote, unquote "Don't bother with one if you're even passingly comfortable with your skills. Just find a busy practice to be an associate at. You'll be exposed to the same things.") Just as a side note, I have no interest in practicing on my own as a general dentist- if I have to remain one I'll be an associate. I don't want the added stress of running a business on top of treating patients- let someone else fool with that side of things.

 

[jdmd]

Please. I just finished school, and I know enough to get out there and work. Maybe I don't know exactly how to do complicated perio or endo procedures, but I do know when something is out of my comfort zone, and I do know how to refer. All of my classmates are competent enough to do ops, remo, fixed, oms, etc. I feel so sorry for you all who have the confidence level of a monkey. If you honestly don't feel like you can cut it out there in the real world then maybe you should reconsider your career. I have friends who did GPR's and it's not like they hold your hand. You're treating patients from day one on your own. You are a dr. Start acting like one.

Since you"just finished school," I'm sure you have a ton of real world experience. Either way, the only thing scarier than someone who doesnt know anything, is someone who doesnt know that they dont know anything.

P.S. FYI, when I said you graduate school knowing nothing I was using a literary tool known as sarcasm (I think it was lost on you). As someone who has been out for year (currently in a Perio program), i understand that a new grad has a basic understanding and ability to practice rudimentary dentistry....and in a clinic or medicaid environment, thats all you need. But if you ever aspire to be in a FFS or high-end practice, I assure you that you that recent grads know next to nothing....thats why its called the PRACTICE of dentistry, it takes YEARS to develop the knowledge and skills to practice that type of dentistry.

I see your in Oregon, go listen to Frank Spears, Dave Mathews and the Ortho guy (I forget his name) they practice with. I think they are in Seattle - maybe youve heard of them. One of their lectures on the Perio/Prost/Ortho relationship, and you'll realize how little you know.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Honestly, I don't see any difference between the general dentists I have worked with and the one I know who completed a GPR.

As Grant's friend said, it's just a way to keep you from getting out and making a living for a year.

As for someone who mentioned about GPR being an alternative for a year as associate, I have no idea, but it would seem to be a comparable level of experience (a busy practice and a GPR) at least that's the way the one dentist I know who did a GPR put it (Quote, unquote "Don't bother with one if you're even passingly comfortable with your skills. Just find a busy practice to be an associate at. You'll be exposed to the same things.") Just as a side note, I have no interest in practicing on my own as a general dentist- if I have to remain one I'll be an associate. I don't want the added stress of running a business on top of treating patients- let someone else fool with that side of things.

Steve,

I agree with you about the GPR thing, it is just a way for the government to get some cheap care for people. Sure you will learn some new skills and become more efficient but you would do that anyways.

So you don't want to go into practice for yourself. That is the MAIN reason why I am persueing dentistry. But then again, I will need a good associate to work for me. I will treat you well. How does 25% of collections minus all lab fees sound to you??

Good luck and it is always good to read your posts.

 

[mike05tusdm]

In the May 2005 ASDA newsletter, there was an editoral written by a 2004 graduate from New York(Dr. Joseph DiBernardo) saying that anyone going right into private practice is "Career suicide. There is far too much to learn, you are too slow and too limited in clinical procedures, and you are doing the public a disservice .... some say doing a year of residency is the equivalent of five years of clnical practice because of the close, one-on-one mentoring and sheer volume of procedures." I am quoting him directly from the article he wrote.

I am entering an AEGD program because I think that I'll be much better prepared for private practice after it. In dental school, there are many procedures(ie. molar endo) that I haven't done many of, and a program will give me more experience. It will also be an opportunity to learn different materials, techniques, etc that I haven't been exposed to in dental school

Just my $0.02.

 

[ItsGavinC]

The only patients I feel sorry for are those we see during our junior year.

What about my sophomore year? Heh, my first patient procedure was removing an cervical amalgam patch on #30 that was apical to a gold crown. Drilled out the amalgam and sure enough, there was lots of decay. I couldn't get great access to get all of the decay so I took the electrosurge and removed 1.5 mm of facial gingiva, then noticed a small pulpal exposure, so I placed Dycal and then covered the entire thing up with IRM until the patient can get back in to have me remove the existing crown, clean up all of the decay, and provisionalize.

Yeah, I feel bad for her also. That was my FIRST patient procedure.

 

[ItsGavinC]

if you were to change the word everything to nothing, then that statement might be alittle more accurate. Talk to ANYONE who has finished school, and they will be of the same opinion. Nevertheless, thats got to be the single handed most uninformed comment I have seen on this website (and this website is FULL of misinformation).

I agree with this, for the most part, which is why I always find it funny when the predents want to know "which schools are clinical schools?"

 

[ItsGavinC]

As for someone who mentioned about GPR being an alternative for a year as associate, I have no idea, but it would seem to be a comparable level of experience (a busy practice and a GPR).

No way, at least not in my opinion. A busy practice and a brand new associate means you're slow handle the minimal cases.

A good hospital-based GPR gives you exposure to critical care patients, maxillofacial trauma patients, anesthesia rotations, etc.

Very different experiences in my book.

 

[ISU_Steve]

No offense, and this question stems solely from some confusion on my part, but why would a general dentist need to be exposed to critical care patients or even serious maxillofacial trauma patients for that matter? Those would both seem to be beyond the normal scope of practice for the field- kind of like myself in my current position as a respiratory therapist scrubbing into first assist on a mitral valve replacement (interesting experience, but it doesn't make me better in my day to day work). Am I missing something here?

 

[HITMAN]

Since you"just finished school," I'm sure you have a ton of real world experience. Either way, the only thing scarier than someone who doesnt know anything, is someone who doesnt know that they dont know anything.

P.S. FYI, when I said you graduate school knowing nothing I was using a literary tool known as sarcasm (I think it was lost on you). As someone who has been out for year (currently in a Perio program), i understand that a new grad has a basic understanding and ability to practice rudimentary dentistry....and in a clinic or medicaid environment, thats all you need. But if you ever aspire to be in a FFS or high-end practice, I assure you that you that recent grads know next to nothing....thats why its called the PRACTICE of dentistry, it takes YEARS to develop the knowledge and skills to practice that type of dentistry.

I see your in Oregon, go listen to Frank Spears, Dave Mathews and the Ortho guy (I forget his name) they practice with. I think they are in Seattle - maybe youve heard of them. One of their lectures on the Perio/Prost/Ortho relationship, and you'll realize how little you know.

Whether or not he has "a ton of real world experience" has nothing to do with this conversation. We're talking about dental skills here, not life experience. Even if it were pertinent, he's not going to have much more life experience a year later after doing a GPR. And if you "understand that a new grad has a basic understanding and ability to practice rudimentary dentistry", then why are you arguing with this guy? Shopaholic was using a literary tool known as "exaggeration" when he said "you know how to do everything" (Clearly, it was lost on you). He knows that he doesn't literally know everything, which is why he said "Obviously you keep learning new stuff, but you should know the basics of comprehensive care." He never said he "aspired to be in a FFS or high-end practice", especially not right out of dental school, and you have no reason to infer this. For someone who supposedly has a JD, your arguments are self-defeating and your logic skills are terrible. You didn't crack the top tier, did you?

P.S. Stop name-droping.

 

[airvent]

Whether or not he has "a ton of real world experience" has nothing to do with this conversation. We're talking about dental skills here, not life experience. Even if it were pertinent, he's not going to have much more life experience a year later after doing a GPR. And if you "understand that a new grad has a basic understanding and ability to practice rudimentary dentistry", then why are you arguing with this guy? Shopaholic was using a literary tool known as "exaggeration" when he said "you know how to do everything" (Clearly, it was lost on you). He knows that he doesn't literally know everything, which is why he said "Obviously you keep learning new stuff, but you should know the basics of comprehensive care." He never said he "aspired to be in a FFS or high-end practice", especially not right out of dental school, and you have no reason to infer this. For someone who supposedly has a JD, your arguments are self-defeating and your logic skills are terrible. You didn't crack the top tier, did you?

P.S. Stop name-droping.

Yes, whatever. you are clearly a troll. Your post history is more of this kind of crap.

Back to the OP. From what little I know of GPRs, I would say they are unnecessary if you have an associateship lined up. An experienced dentist can help you learn quite a bit. A GPR may be good if you were weak in your clinical skills. Another year of close supervision May help you get up to speed and feel more confident in your capabilites. I'm not sure but an AEGD may also help if you plan to go into a specialty if your app is weak, but i could be making that up.

 

[jdmd]

Whether or not he has "a ton of real world experience" has nothing to do with this conversation. We're talking about dental skills here, not life experience. Even if it were pertinent, he's not going to have much more life experience a year later after doing a GPR. And if you "understand that a new grad has a basic understanding and ability to practice rudimentary dentistry", then why are you arguing with this guy? Shopaholic was using a literary tool known as "exaggeration" when he said "you know how to do everything" (Clearly, it was lost on you). He knows that he doesn't literally know everything, which is why he said "Obviously you keep learning new stuff, but you should know the basics of comprehensive care." He never said he "aspired to be in a FFS or high-end practice", especially not right out of dental school, and you have no reason to infer this. For someone who supposedly has a JD, your arguments are self-defeating and your logic skills are terrible. You didn't crack the top tier, did you?


P.S. Stop name-droping.

Does anyone know what this guy is talking about?
When did I say anything about having a JD?
When did I say anything about life experiences - I am talking dental skills and knowledge?
I'm, sorry, I have to ask again, What the Hell are you talking about?
I think I speak for everyone when I beg you to go back under the rock you crawled out form under

 

[HITMAN]

Does anyone know what this guy is talking about?

The post was not difficult to understand, especially considering 1/3 of it was comprised of quotes obtained directly from your post.

When did I say anything about having a JD?

Your ID is JDMD. Did you enter the wrong profession?

When did I say anything about life experiences - I am talking dental skills and knowledge?

Right here:
"Since you "just finished school," I'm sure you have a ton of real world experience. Either way, the only thing scarier than someone who doesnt know anything, is someone who doesnt know that they dont know anything."

Real world expereince is life experience. You may have meant "dental skills", but you said "real world experience". "Real world experience" refers to experience obtained from all facets of life, and is not limited to the knowledge obtained by dental professionals. Next time think before you post.

I'm, sorry, I have to ask again, What the Hell are you talking about?

No need to apologize, I'll repeat myself. The post was not difficult to understand, especially considering 1/3 of it was comprised of quotes obtained directly from your post.

I think I speak for everyone when I beg you to go back under the rock you crawled out form under

How juvenile.

 

[HITMAN]

Yes, whatever. you are clearly a troll.

Whatever? Third graders don't even say that anymore.

P.S. Talk to the hand.

 

[groundhog]

A lot would depend on your future goals. A GPR might give you a leg up if you later decide to specialize in Pedo or OMS. A GPR could also give you an advantage if you apply for a GP position in a public health clinic (some can be quite competitive believe it or not). A GPR will also give you with real life hands on experience in treating those medical complication cases that you learned about but wished you could have deallt with more while in dental school.

 

[ISU_Steve]

I might (MIGHT) do one if it would give me a leg up in getting into a specialty if I don't get in the first time around.

 

[DrTacoElf]

I'm not planning on one. Assocaiteship for 2-3 for me with TONS of CE (also plan to take CE in year 4 of school). Would like to be competent in basic restorative, crown, bridge, dentures, cosmetic and endo and molar endo before going out on own.

 

[aphistis]

Whatever? Third graders don't even say that anymore.

P.S. Talk to the hand.

Whatever.

 

[ItsGavinC]

No offense, and this question stems solely from some confusion on my part, but why would a general dentist need to be exposed to critical care patients or even serious maxillofacial trauma patients for that matter? Those would both seem to be beyond the normal scope of practice for the field.

It's only beyond your normal scope if you refer them out. That's the miracle of the general practioner. They're free to do as much or as little as they wish.

Further, those who go through good GPRs claim that they are huge confidence boosters as well as speed boosters; much more so than a year in an associateship.

 

[ISU_Steve]

It's only beyond your normal scope if you refer them out. That's the miracle of the general practioner. They're free to do as much or as little as they wish.

Further, those who go through good GPRs claim that they are huge confidence boosters as well as speed boosters; much more so than a year in an associateship.

I just don't see many serious facial trauma patients going to a dental office- normally it's whomever is on call for OMFS when they get admitted to the ER, and the same goes for critical patients. You don't see many hemodynamically unstable or respiratory failure patients in the course of general practice (of course I could be wrong, I'm just taking a some what educated guess).

I don't see a comparison between a sinus lift and someone who requires a coronal flap and lots of plates and screws. Yeah, any competent general dentist you come across could probably do the former, but I don't think anyone would view a general practitioner as being qualified to do it regardless of their having completed a GPR regardless. I wouldn't let a board certified reconstructive surgeon do that to a family member of mine let alone a general dentist.

I'm all for being a broadly qualified practice, but there is such a thing as getting in over your head. If it were anyone but you Gavin, I would be assuming that the person is just talking out of their head, believing that they can do anything within the very wide scope that is dentistry simply because you have a DMD or DDS after your name. However, because it is you, I do believe you're speaking from a very level headed, mature approach to things as you normally do, and only speaking of what you feel like you could reasonably expect yourself to be capable of. I do, however, respectfully disagree. Like I've stated before doing something a couple of times during training does imply that you should be handling incredibly complex cases and doing procedures that should be left to those that specialize in those very types of cases.

 

[airvent]

Well Steve GPRs are usually in a hospital setting and you would llikely see cases you would not see in private practice. Much of which could not be handled in a private practice anyway. I think most Dentist would refer cases they deem outside their scope of practice. I really don't think it is an issue in that in the real world it seldom happens. (besides OMS doing boob jobs...) I'm not saying it doesn't, but its hardly an epidemic.
But I do think that the seeing the broad and varied cases that you would see in a GPR can help you be a better Dentist. Its true that you likely won't see facial trauma in a private practice, but having experience treating such patients can improve your insight and understanding of dentistry

 

[kerrydds06]

The KEY in choosing whether or not to do a GPR depends on WHERE you want to practice. If you plan on going to some small town (which can be highly profitable) where you are the only gig in town, you may want to consider doing a reputable hospital based GPR, (there are some BS ones who just want the cheap labor so do your research). This will build a strong foundation due to lack of "refferring power" in these areas.

If however you will be in a location where you can easily refer, then utilize the specialist, they can be a great source of patients. (Why spend 2 hours looking for that 5th canal, when you could have done the exam, xrays, tx plan, hygiene check, 2 crowns and bleaching from that patient your endo buddy sent over in the same time?)
LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION!

PS. I'm already looking for an associate position starting next May, cause I'll learn more "usable" dentistry that will better serve my practice goals as a GP. I know a GPR will not give me enough stimulation. I hate being bored. I may gain some "insight" over the year, but I 'll gain more pertinent "insight" in private practice. Plus the stipend is a joke, I made much more as a tech.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Steve, you have very valid points. Perhaps some of those already in GPRs will post their thoughts. I don't have any more info than what I've already posted, but I also understand your side of the coin. I won't hesitate in saying that a GPR isn't for everybody--we all have different likes and interests and needs.

It's probably an excellent option for some and a non-so-excellent choice for others.

 

[ISU_Steve]

But I do think that the seeing the broad and varied cases that you would see in a GPR can help you be a better Dentist. Its true that you likely won't see facial trauma in a private practice, but having experience treating such patients can improve your insight and understanding of dentistry

I see your point. Well said.