GPs average annual income

[chrisdds]

When people say GP's average income of $120,000, does that mean net income after excluding all those taxes?

Does anybody know what the average annual income for a general dentist graduating out of dental school is?

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[UBTom]

Heya,

Well, the U.S. Department of Labor statistics for the entire country says the national average for a dentist is $75,000.

That's the national average though-- I'm sure at busier practices such as those in affluent urban/suburban areas you will gross lots more than that.

HTH!

 

[CraigWVU]

LOTS MORE!!!!!! I know a lot of dentists and not one makes under 100,000/year and they all work max 4 days/week!

I know of some dentists that make over 250k/year.

It all depends on how much you are willing to work, and how fast you can do the work!


C

 

[Supernumerary]

Gross refers to doctor production/collection. Net refers to the portion of gross collection that the doctor takes home. Net is almost always reported before taxes are taken out. So figure Uncle Sam gets to keep ~30-40% of whatever number is being reported. (Unless the Dems take over in the next election; then you'll be lucky to keep half of what you earn. )

On another note, I would be leery of those on these boards who insist that the majority of dentists are netting $200k+. Many of us will make that much at some point in our careers, but you are only setting yourself up for dissappointment if you're not going to be happy being a dentist for $80-95K.

I know there are a lot of people who disagree with me on this, but I have seen a whole lot of pie-in-the-sky -- I know a dentist who makes 7 figures -- if you do your own ortho you'll for sure hit 500K -- the statistics are all grossly under-reported -- etc... -- etc... on these boards. Come on. Approach this realistically. Compare the dentist making 80-90k with the school teacher making 60k. The dentist pays 12-15k for his family's health insurance, another $10-20k minimum has to be set aside for retirement. All these things are provided for the school teacher as benefits. And all this while the dentist is paying more in taxes. The only area where the dentist wins out in this thing is that he gets to be a dentist while the school teacher is stuck with 30 bratty teenagers all day.

In short, don't do this for the money.

P.S. I didn't mean to cast aspersions on your intentions, chris; just thought I'd speak my mind before all the crazy talk begins. Whenever the topic of money comes up on these boards, people just get plain irrational.

 

[CraigWVU]

Supernumerary, not to say you don't know whats going on but come on. You must have a family member that is a teacher because we all know why people teach, and you DO NOT make just as much as a dentist as you do a teacher unless it takes you an hour to cut a class 1 ideal amalgam prep. If I don't clear over 60k a year, why wouldn't I go into something else and not spend my 8 years in school doing this?

I know many dentists, many in my family, and not one CLEARS, less than 100k a year.

The people who teach usually don't like the hassle of keeping everything lined out (insurance, orders, paydays, etc....) or they can't work fast enough to make a good profit.

So in short chris, look to make around 100-110k a year. If you work on being fast on your preps and endo work, but still stay above average level, you have the potential to make a lot more in this profession.

Starting out as an associate, you will only make around 75-85k a year, but this is where the majority of your experience comes from!

 

[ItsGavinC]

Craig is right on the money. Besides, where do teachers make 60k, other than in Connecticut?

Remember that those US DoL stats are a bit skewed. There are LOTS of dentists who are 60 or older and work only 1 day a week.

The average net of a GP is more like $170,000. Not ironically, when taxes and everything else are removed from that, it comes down to $120,000, which is what most GPs will bring home on a daily basis.

And of course, you shouldn't go into dentistry for the money, but there really are few realistic professions that can generate revenue better. Sure, NBA players, high-powered execs, actors, but how many of us can do that?

Dental medicine is where it is at, my friends.

 

[chrisdds]

Supernumerary, thanks for the info.

Just wanted to tell you that I've always been interested in dentistry since my freshman year in high school, and definitely not for the money. If it was for the money, I would have figured that out already (incomes and all that kind of stuffs). My dream came true after all those years, and I'm finally going to dental school this fall.

I did not pay too much attention on the money side, and now that I know I'll have to pay back $250K once I graduate, I wanted to sort out things for the future so I know what to expect later.

Anyway, I appreciate your concern.

 

[augustdds]

Someone asked this question on dentaltown and responses ranged from an ass rippin' to some straight answers. I think this is a fine question and is definately one that should be asked and is usually sidestepped.

Instead of asking, "How much does a GP make?" You should ask "How much do you want to make?"

I did a survey for Dentaltown magazine looking at practice overhead numbers so I can give you a range for solo practioners. When I started out with no experience on five days a week, I made 85k. so thats the low end. There are a few solo practicioners on DT that probably net (before taxes but after expenses) between $600-$800k on a 4-5 day week. There are some cosmetic dentists or just dentists with associates that make $1,000,000 plus.

The ADA's number is about $120K, which is a national average. I think for a nationwide average if you include faculty and just old timers that are "hobby" dentists and are doing it more for fun, I can understand this number.

I think someone posted $170k, thats about right. Someone else poo pooed the 200k plus. Actually in Los Angeles, I know many who are most likely doing that number (I would never ask, but from clues they give me).

So what are some secrets to net 200k plus?:

1. Experience: You most likely won't be doing these numbers out of the gate, more like 3-4 plus years out

2. Work! The more hours you work, the more procedures you do, the better you will get and thus be able to charge more. There is nothing worse in a capitalistic society than a high priced, low quality service. Get good at what you do, and charge accordingly.

3. Private practice: Nuff said! You will be a rarity if you make 200k plus working for someone else.

4. Procedures: As stated earlier, get good at stuff that many refer. And I mean good, I sound like a broken record, but you need to be as good as a specialist to do "speciality" type things. But a slow day can be turned into a very productive day by not refrring out.

5. Quality: Hard to measure, but give patients more than what they expect, and they will refer their friends. Over promise and under deliver, and you will be sitting on your hands.

Sorry for the rant


August

 

[NewNameForGoogleBot]

Thanks August. For those of you who haven't been over to dentaltown, there is all sorts of great discussion from REAL doctors (not pre-dents) on topics like this and others. I'm a chronic lurker at dentaltown!

 

[Supernumerary]

Supernumerary, not to say you don't know whats going on but come on. You must have a family member that is a teacher because we all know why people teach, and you DO NOT make just as much as a dentist as you do a teacher unless it takes you an hour to cut a class 1 ideal amalgam prep. If I don't clear over 60k a year, why wouldn't I go into something else and not spend my 8 years in school doing this?

Well, Craig, there is a very real possibility that I don't know what I'm talking about. Thanks for not saying it outright though. (And I wasn't accusing you personally of crazy talk; I actually started my post before you, but stopped halfway through to fix a sandwich. And when I came back and finished, I found that you had already posted.)

I'm just basing my assumptions on what the government has published, what my school has told me, and what my own personal dentist makes (yes, he came right out, volunteering the info, and told me that he makes about 80,000/yr). The feds say ~80k, my school says ~80k. My dentist says ~80k. Being the conservative type of guy that I am, I am going to expect to make ~$80,000/yr. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

You do sound pretty convincing though, and I know there are a lot of dentists who do bring home close to 200k, I just think it's silly for everybody to expect to make that much. From what I've seen posted before I have a feeling there are going to be some very dissappointed folks on these boards, and I'm just trying to be a voice of reason.

This is, however, one instance where I would LOVE to be wrong.

Gavin, I was assuming the teacher and dentist had similar education levels (master's or PhD in education.) Should have stated that, I guess.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by jaap
For those of you who haven't been over to dentaltown, there is all sorts of great discussion from REAL doctors (not pre-dents) on topics like this and others.

Ahh, real doctors, the horror!

DT is great -- I started making the transition over there last month.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by Supernumerary

Gavin, I was assuming the teacher and dentist had similar education levels (master's or PhD in education.) Should have stated that, I guess.

Nah, you're cool. No biggy.

 

[ItsGavinC]

And super, by the way, I think you *will* be surprised. If you are close to your dentist then get a look at his billing details and see how much he bills for each procedure.

I suspect you will find that they grossly underbills, or doesn't spend as much time in the clinic as you may think.

Also, how many assistants/hygenists does he have with him? Those guys can REALLY speed up the pace and production (but they increase overhead). Also, how many chairs does he have?

If you assume that your dentist only works 200 days a year (which is quite a few days off) then to make exactly 80k (before overhead) he would only have to generate $400 a day! For hypothetical reasons, we can say he needs to make $160,000 to pay off overhead and everything else. But that only equates to him billing/collecting $800 a day!

As you can see, that is relatively simple, especially if he runs an efficient office and has a good patient base. In all honesty, he could bill $2400 a day and only work two months of the year and STILL bring home $80,000 after spending a total of $80,000 on taxes, overhead, etc.

 

[FMLizard]

Not that I should really divulge this, but since it is purely anonymous from the standpoint of the sample, here goes:

I have been working in mortgage lending this summer and am privy to the innermost financial dealings of thousands of families from all backgrounds, and a decent number of dentists from all over America. I have seen salaries range from about 75K to well over 300K. The mean seems to be somewhere around 130-150K, which is right in line with both BLS (government agency) and ADA estimates for GPs. The data from both of these sources is dated by a couple years, and is likely higher. BLS seems to underestimate most other jobs, while the ADA is a tad optimistic. Specialists make 30-100% more on average.

The absolute best way to find income is to look at job listings. An offer to actually pay a certain amount is better than hearsay or exaggeration. Besides, if a practice owner is looking to pay an associate 90K, you can be damn sure that he is making at least 120 to support the demand for a 2nd dentist. Nobody hires an associate who makes more than they do, and since 75K is a pretty weak associate contract, I would say that owners making less than this are a rarity. Heck, a lot of hygenists report making 50-75K. This is not exactly an outlier, but a fairly common thing. The state of Michigan just raised the pay for prison dentists to 124K per year, plus cushy state benefits because they couldn't find anyone to take the jobs. If everyone were making 75 (and half were making less), these jobs would be fought over like crazy.

I would say that it is a fairly safe assumption that you will be making 100K+ within your first 2-3 years, if not your first day. This may vary depending on your practice choice early on, but will level out for everyone eventually. If you have any sort of business skill, personality, and aptitude, there is no reason why you cannot make this amount.

Also, people have inflated ideas of what others make in this country. A college degree means very little these days. Everyone has one, and the jobs are leaving in droves for the educated in America. Worse yet, you are far more likely to be in poverty if you are under 30 than in any other age group. The "global workforce" of cheap labor is about to trounce white-collar American jobs, and highly skilled trades such as dentistry are the safest havens from this revolution. Managers, lawyers, engineers, salespeople, etc. are just a disposable commodity, to be bought and sold like wood, metal, or fuel in the new economy. Those with skills that must be performed face to face in regulated industry by the highly educated will fare the best. I would be mortally afraid of using my business degree to try and make any future. If you are successful, the corporate raiders will just slash your career and life away as soon as you make too much money. As a dentist, you can aspire to and revel in your success with nothing hanging over your head.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Nice post. My sentiments exactly regarding the current condition of our workforce/education in the US.

 

[dc-10]

what was the average physician making?

 

[ItsGavinC]

Since 1999, the average physician has been making LESS than the average dentist. In 1999, the difference was $6,000. I'm not sure what the difference is now, but my guess would be at least 10-15k.

 

[Leukocyte]

Originally posted by ItsGavinC
Since 1999, the average physician has been making LESS than the average dentist. In 1999, the difference was $6,000. I'm not sure what the difference is now, but my guess would be at least 10-15k.

I am switching to dentistry.

 

[acrunner]

i hope md's income doesn't continue to decline as folks seem to think, as my wife will be one in less than two years

 

[ItsGavinC]

acrunner,

The decline isn't anything inherant in the profession, but is a factor that is associated with HMOs and organized healthcare, which IS now inherant to the profession.

Perhaps the salaries will bottom out and then rise back up. Most likely they will continue to decline for several more years and then probably become static.

 

[shootin4par]

I think that for many of us we need to remember that worrying about the exact dollar amount is pretty pointless. Please let me expound on this.

I have known a handful of dentists and physicians and all of them do well. No matter what, you can expect a 6 figure income. Both sides of medicine enjoy the benefits of hard work. I have seen Gen Dentists with 2 million dollar homes and a 650k hatteras, and surgeons with the same. Im not saying that this is average etc, but you must remember that depending on the type of dentistry/medicine you practice, where you practice, and how you practice will determind a lot more than what any statistical average will report.

Besides isn't the saying that "95% of all statistics are made up"?

 

[shootin4par]

In regard to medicine and money, I was talking to my friend's father who is an orthopedic surgeon, and he said that medicine is a pendulum. He told me that by the time I got into the practice of medicine things should be comign out of the trouble they have been in for the last so many years. THis was abt 5 yrs ago. Today he is still a surgeon, and pulling in more than before.

jsut a lil side note......hoep it helps.

 

[mcataz]

Shootin4par just hit a hole in one. Average salary reports should be used to provide a starting point or indicator in regards to earning potential. But it doesn't by any means cap your earning potential or dictate what and what you cannot earn. There are so many factors that determine one's earning potential. It amazes me how so many educated people will allow some random salary number on a URL to dictate to them how much they will earn one day.

When did simple concepts like supply and demand, efficiency, risk and effort fail to enter the picture? Seriously people, just because some guy in LA is earning only 95K doesn't mean that is what you are destined to earn the rest of your life living in Dallas especially if you decide to work 5 days a week instead of 4 and you market yourself aggressively throughtout your career.

If you are so concerned about earning money, simply live in areas that have severe shortages of dentists. You don't have to live in Los Angelas or downtown San Francisco.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by shootin4par
In regard to medicine and money, I was talking to my friend's father who is an orthopedic surgeon, and he said that medicine is a pendulum.

ALL professions respond in this manner! Earnings typically cycle as does the economy, however this is no longer a valid model for the medical profession.

Organized healthcare has severely put a damper in the earnings of medicine and has effected nearly every specialty, with a few exceptions.

There are some earnings reports that report higher numbers for physicians than they did 5 years ago, however those reports don't tell the entire story. What they fail to mention is that those same physicians are now working 20 more hours a week in order to compensate for the huge hole that HMOs have run through their practices.

Medical salaries have not kept up with salary rise of other professions, nor will they. It simply is not possible for medical salaries to increase given the current state of our healthcare system.

The few exceptions to this would be specialties which encompass non-vital or cosmetic issues such as plastics or comestic dentistry.

 

[shootin4par]

Gavin,

You brought up a good point on medicine not keeping up with the earning potential of other professions. I think for the most part I agree with you, and being that I really didn't go into much detail it can be assumed that medicine is on the decline. However, keep in mind how large the medical lobby is in D.C. Medicine really won't keep going too far down. Right now I think its in the trenches, but realistically I think that things will turn around. Does that mean that the glorious days of the 1980's will return? Not likely, but I do believe that the profession will come back to some normality.

But with the way our healthcare system is set up you are right. However, if you look at physicians in NY and a few other state who are creating their own version of HMO's for their own patients, doctors are taking matters into their own hands. Granted this new method of practicing is still in its infancy, but i think that if things dont turn around with our healthcare system we can expect many physicians to join this practice of medicine.

Now another good point gavin brought up was the inability of earnings to continue to grow with exceptions extending to subspecialities and cosmetics. This is true, but again things are changing, and hopefully for the better.

I believe that the work in medicine will continue to be grueling. I agree that the statistics don't tell the entire story, but then again when has the entire story ever been told? I remember when everyone told me that going pre-dent was the wrong way, and I should just go I-banking or engineering because thats the way to make money.............like Gav said those are cyclical, and the medical profession is a little more protected from these hot and cold extremes of the economy......

just my thoughts.......always good to get points out, hopefully we all will benefit from it

 

[ItsGavinC]

Well said, well said.

 

[mcataz]

But right now, the trial lawyers and insurance companies keep raising malpractice premiums. And that is something dentists will never face because the nature of our work does not often include life or death related situations. That is why you can't say that dentistry will endure the same fate as medicine.

We keep talking about managed care but we fail to address physician's malpractice insurance which has skyrocketed. Many OB/GYN physicians pay 60K or more for malpractice per year. Many surgeons pay upwards of 40K per year. That is what has hurt physicians significantly. Their cost of doing business has increased. When you are paying close to 100K in malpractice insurance, that is going to take a huge chunk out of your earnings.

I just don't see medicine really improving. As strong as the medical lobby is, the trial lawyer lobby is far stronger. Lawyers are not going to allow their income to be affected. And they essentially control the legal industry. That is why tort reform has failed over the years. And the House didn't pass the most recent legislative effort to cap punitive damages in medical malpractice cases.

And Gavin is correct. Although average salaries have risen for physicians, they are actually earning less when adjusted for inflation and the number of hours worked. But I agree with Shootin4par's overall theme. Physicians are not starving by any means. It's not like they are suddenly earning 100K less than they did. Physicians still earn well into the six figures on average. Just go to any physician salary survey and you will see that with a few exceptions, most fields average 200K or more per year.