Grad School Advice

[Rain Sova]

I have read hundreds of “lcsw vs psyd” threads…. It appears you can't delete threads and my last one was misunderstood and highjacked. Please bear with my slightly unique (I think) situation..

When I was 14, I decided I would be a Clinical Psychologist. But then, I had been set on becoming an LCSW since I had one at 19 as a teen mom.

I am passionate about *teen mothers* and *children with ptsd* as well as faith-based ministry.

The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog is one of my favorite books thus far.

I am now 33, my husband and I have six kids. He is in construction. Now, with my Behavioral Health undergrad, I am looking into masters to psyd or msw to lcsw. Of course I could have saved time with the BSW to MSW track. But here I am. I am aware transgenderism will come up again so I don’t want this to become the focus of my post – it is just background. I worked at a state- run non-profit for mentally disabled adults and absolutely *loved* it but I had to take a higher paying job to make ends meet and I was crushed.

I did look at Wheaton College psyd for a cool 45k a year.

It sounds like MSW to LCSW is the “Easiest route” (although it is still of course work and internships, an exam etc, they don't just hand out MSWs and Licenses) but my heart is in psychology specifically. I would like to be able to do testing (I paid about 1200 to have my son’s psychological testing done and there was a six month waiting period. That is the extent of my experience with it).

I am terrible at math, I love writing and have won contests and such… I also wonder if a funded PhD, should I be accepted, would be more math-heavy than PsyD. I know we all must do stats and such.

What would you do? I am older, it is a huge commitment and I hate to settle because unlike others I may not have time for a “second career”.

My kids are my absolute world as well and people make it sound like a PsyD program is not just 8 hours a day but like 20 hours a day haha

I want to put the work in and be realistic. I also know that risk/reward (debt/salary potential) is a bigger concern for me with all these kids.

I truly appreciate any feedback.

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[Therapist4Chnge]

Of those options, the MSW to LCSW could work. You wouldn't be able to do assessment, but it would provide an opportunity to do most of what you want, and you wouldn't have to go deep into debt to do so. You may also have more flexibility with courseload (taking classes part-time v. full-time...the latter being required for doctoral training). It's important to consider that the time commitment isn't just the time in class, as there may be meetings and other things that also will require time, but a lot of masters programs are built around a part-time model. Please only consider in-person training and not online training, which a quick search would turn up a plethora of threads talking about why; it boils down to being poorly regarded, expensive, and too much of a risk to employers to hire someone w. an online degree when there are usually plenty of applicants from traditional programs.

You also mentioned "faith-based ministry", which is its own "sticky wicket". I'm not saying all training programs with a faith/religious influence are bad, but "Conversion Therapy" is a great example of how science and faith/religion really diverge and you want to make sure you are learning the best empirically validated treatments. It is more settled now, but 10-15 years ago it was much more accepted and problematic. More generally, there needs to be a real consideration about how personal beliefs can impact professional interactions; this should be covered in supervision and elsewhere in a training program bc it comes up across a range of topics. It's worth noting that a lot of clinicians have strong religious beliefs, but they make a conscious effort to be guided by their professional training and attend secular training programs. Counseling from a psychological perspective is different than "counseling" from a religious perspective, and you need to make sure that the psychological perspective is what you want to practice.

Once fully licensed and independant, you have control over who you see and don't see, so you can carve out your niche area(s). In training you likely will have experiences that aren't your preference, but are part of training. I liken it to rotating through OB/GYN for medical students. Some may not want anything to do with OB/GYN, but it is still an important aspect of training. Once on your own, you can limit your practice to whatever you want. Personally, I refuse to take referrals that involve child custody issues (very niche work that can get ugly) and pedophiles. I ended up seeing cases in training that involved child custody and pedophiles, but I knew that once I was out on my own...I could choose what cases I saw.

 

[Rain Sova]

Of those options, the MSW to LCSW could work. You wouldn't be able to do assessment, but it would provide an opportunity to do most of what you want, and you wouldn't have to go deep into debt to do so. You may also have more flexibility with courseload (taking classes part-time v. full-time...the latter being required for doctoral training). It's important to consider that the time commitment isn't just the time in class, as there may be meetings and other things that also will require time, but a lot of masters programs are built around a part-time model. Please only consider in-person training and not online training, which a quick search would turn up a plethora of threads talking about why; it boils down to being poorly regarded, expensive, and too much of a risk to employers to hire someone w. an online degree when there are usually plenty of applicants from traditional programs.

You also mentioned "faith-based ministry", which is its own "sticky wicket". I'm not saying all training programs with a faith/religious influence are bad, but "Conversion Therapy" is a great example of how science and faith/religion really diverge and you want to make sure you are learning the best empirically validated treatments. It is more settled now, but 10-15 years ago it was much more accepted and problematic. More generally, there needs to be a real consideration about how personal beliefs can impact professional interactions; this should be covered in supervision and elsewhere in a training program bc it comes up across a range of topics. It's worth noting that a lot of clinicians have strong religious beliefs, but they make a conscious effort to be guided by their professional training and attend secular training programs. Counseling from a psychological perspective is different than "counseling" from a religious perspective, and you need to make sure that the psychological perspective is what you want to practice.

Once fully licensed and independant, you have control over who you see and don't see, so you can carve out your niche area(s). In training you likely will have experiences that aren't your preference, but are part of training. I liken it to rotating through OB/GYN for medical students. Some may not want anything to do with OB/GYN, but it is still an important aspect of training. Once on your own, you can limit your practice to whatever you want. Personally, I refuse to take referrals that involve child custody issues (very niche work that can get ugly) and pedophiles. I ended up seeing cases in training that involved child custody and pedophiles, but I knew that once I was out on my own...I could choose what cases I saw.

This is extremely helpful. I definitely am not referring to conversion therapy but point taken. In order to become licensed in my state you absolutely must do in person hours for MSW. Social work is a bit cliquey and a bit political, not sure of the culture with psychologists but I know of a few Christian clinical psychologists in the area that do testing and therapy with children that I look up to I suppose. It may be an unrealistic academic path with all the kids I have.

 

[summerbabe]

I’d also explore other masters level pathways to licensure besides the MSW (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor, Licensed Mental Health Counselor). Perhaps one of these fields may be a better fit.

The biggest barrier to a doctorate is time (besides admissions ). You’ll likely need to spend some time getting research experience + 4-6 years on campus study + 1 year predoctoral internship + 1 year postdoctoral fellowship or informal supervised hours before you’re free to independently practice.

At a standard retirement age, that may be less than 2 decades of full practice (not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that).

 

[Rain Sova]

I’d also explore other masters level pathways to licensure besides the MSW (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor, Licensed Mental Health Counselor). Perhaps one of these fields may be a better fit.

The biggest barrier to a doctorate is time (besides admissions ). You’ll likely need to spend some time getting research experience + 4-6 years on campus study + 1 year predoctoral internship + 1 year postdoctoral fellowship or informal supervised hours before you’re free to independently practice.

At a standard retirement age, that may be less than 2 decades of full practice (not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that).

Thank you, all valid points.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

My kids are my absolute world as well and people make it sound like a PsyD program is not just 8 hours a day but like 20 hours a day haha

I think this is a really important point. Doctoral programs are definitely more than an 8 hour per day commitment. I think it would be extremely hard to balance parenting 6 kids with the workload. One of my classmates got a dog and ended up re-homing it because she did not have enough time for a dog with her grad school responsibilities.

Don't mean to be discouraging. I'm sure you will find a good outlet for your passions, but I personally would not advise the clinical doctorate. Good luck to you.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I think this is a really important point. Doctoral programs are definitely more than an 8 hour per day commitment. I think it would be extremely hard to balance parenting 6 kids with the workload. One of my classmates got a dog and ended up re-homing it because she did not have enough time for a dog with her grad school responsibilities.

Don't mean to be discouraging. I'm sure you will find a good outlet for your passions, but I personally would not advise the clinical doctorate. Good luck to you.

Good to see you back!

 

[Rain Sova]

I think this is a really important point. Doctoral programs are definitely more than an 8 hour per day commitment. I think it would be extremely hard to balance parenting 6 kids with the workload. One of my classmates got a dog and ended up re-homing it because she did not have enough time for a dog with her grad school responsibilities.

Don't mean to be discouraging. I'm sure you will find a good outlet for your passions, but I personally would not advise the clinical doctorate. Good luck to you.

Thank you for this. I was thinking about this last night. I WANT to be a Clinical Psychologist quite badly. It is a passion of mine. However, my children are my priority and I do have an especially large brood for where I live and not much support outside my husband. I may have to go for social work even if it is not what I want to study at all. I can still land in a therapist role. I see lots of commentors on here hone in on "what do you want to do" versus "who do you want to be" and I guess there is merit to that. Thanks again

 

[borne_before]

Thank you for this. I was thinking about this last night. I WANT to be a Clinical Psychologist quite badly. It is a passion of mine. However, my children are my priority and I do have an especially large brood for where I live and not much support outside my husband. I may have to go for social work even if it is not what I want to study at all. I can still land in a therapist role. I see lots of commentors on here hone in on "what do you want to do" versus "who do you want to be" and I guess there is merit to that. Thanks again

I just want to let you know that your experiences as a teen mom and mother of six will be a huge asset in whatever you decide to pursue. I work in a pediatric health setting. Most of the counselors we have here are LCSWs and they bring a strong set of case management and therapeutic skills that are, quite frankly, invaluable to our very low and diverse SES patient base. I am continually impressed by them. Being a clinical psychologist (I'm not one btw), or rather a psychologist in a clinical setting, isn't super glamorous. Personally, if I were in your shoes, and listening to your passions, I would go for the LCSW because it truly sounds like an area that your very special life circumstances would be most appreciated by your patients. Its also the better return on investment, and you might even be able to do it for free fifty free/loan forgiveness/etc.

The clinical psychology degree is mostly a research degree, and I don't hear that is a passion for you. The psyd, unless fully funded, is never a good idea.

It kinda of reminds me about the joke about a guy who is sitting on the roof of his house after a flood. He declines aid from the evacuation before the flood, and as the waters continue to raise, he eventually declines a rescue rowboat and helicopter because "God will save me." As the waters continue to raise. After he eventually drowns and goes to heaven, he's like "God, I'm a little miffed, I was so faithful to you and ended up dead. God replies, "Dude, I sent a warning, a rowboat, and helicopter..."

It sounds like the MSW to LCSW is calling to you, whether you like it the title or not!

Either way, I'm rooting for you!

 

[Rain Sova]

I think this is a really important point. Doctoral programs are definitely more than an 8 hour per day commitment. I think it would be extremely hard to balance parenting 6 kids with the workload. One of my classmates got a dog and ended up re-homing it because she did not have enough time for a dog with her grad school responsibilities.

I just want to let you know that your experiences as a teen mom and mother of six will be a huge asset in whatever you decide to pursue. I work in a pediatric health setting. Most of the counselors we have here are LCSWs and they bring a strong set of case management and therapeutic skills that are, quite frankly, invaluable to our very low and diverse SES patient base. I am continually impressed by them. Being a clinical psychologist (I'm not one btw), or rather a psychologist in a clinical setting, isn't super glamorous. Personally, if I were in your shoes, and listening to your passions, I would go for the LCSW because it truly sounds like an area that your very special life circumstances would be most appreciated by your patients. Its also the better return on investment, and you might even be able to do it for free fifty free/loan forgiveness/etc.

The clinical psychology degree is mostly a research degree, and I don't hear that is a passion for you. The psyd, unless fully funded, is never a good idea.

It kinda of reminds me about the joke about a guy who is sitting on the roof of his house after a flood. He declines aid from the evacuation before the flood, and as the waters continue to raise, he eventually declines a rescue rowboat and helicopter because "God will save me." As the waters continue to raise. After he eventually drowns and goes to heaven, he's like "God, I'm a little miffed, I was so faithful to you and ended up dead. God replies, "Dude, I sent a warning, a rowboat, and helicopter..."

It sounds like the MSW to LCSW is calling to you, whether you like it the title or not!

Either way, I'm rooting for you!

Thank you!! I so appreciate your response. I also grew up in DV, and my sister has BPD. I was always intrigued that untreated childhood ptsd seemed to present itself as BPD later in life. I also aided one of my sons through mental health challenges when he was really young and he is thriving. I think I always knew MSW to LCSW is the best path but I felt out of place in the culture. An example would be, I'm a Libertarian, the NASW always endorses Democrats, and so on. Plus I want to perform psychological testing but you can't have everything. Thank you for your feedback - it is very encouraging.