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Grades Needed for Residency Matches

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by SurgeonS4, Mar 28, 2002.

  1. SurgeonS4

    SurgeonS4 Member
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    Hey . . . I was wondering what kind of grades are needed during the pre-clinical years for a general surgery spot or an invasive cardiologist spot(now I know thats an internal med and then a fellowship). Im just a little worried about my grades . . . cause well surgery is my first choice and dream where as the other is my second. Everyone also says that people who do surgery have no life . . . but i grew up in a surgeons home and my father was around ALL the time . . . anyway . . . whats up with the grades for those two positions?
     
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  3. johnM

    johnM Senior Member
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    SurgeonS4, what kind of surgeon was your father? did he work in an acamedic or community setting? I have little personaly expereince like you do, but everyone seems to think that surgeons work 100+ hours/week. maybe this is only during residency?
     
  4. SurgeonS4

    SurgeonS4 Member
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    my father was a CT surgeon now recently retired. He worked long hours during residency, but then afterwards we worked from about 9 to 7 everyday during the week. On the weekends, he had half days . . . so he would be home by 1. I dont think that schedule is too bad. My brother is also a CT surgeon and he usually has call everyother week . . . but he usually has weekends off. So I think what is hitting people hard is the fact about residency work hours and years in training.
     
  5. johnM

    johnM Senior Member
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    that doesn't sound to bad, but would he ever take weekends off? or how about vacation time, how does a doctor determine how much time he can take off in a year? I definitely don't mind working my a$$ off, but I also like taking time to travel, etc. ya know, like work hard, play hard...
     
  6. Pilot Doc

    Pilot Doc SDN Angel
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    Interventional Cardiology: preclinical grades irrelevant. Your residency and fellowship track record will eclipse anything you did during all four years of med school.

    General Surgery: This is a great time to train as a surgeon. For two years in a row 50+ categorical spots have not matched. Last year, only 75% of the spots were filled by american grads. If you're the least bit personable and competent, you can get a general surgery spot. Some programs are quite competitive, but most are not right now. Preclinical grades are a minor issue. Mostly B's and some C's should not be a problem. If the report card has mostly C's or some D's/F's, that will raise eyebrows. However, it can all be redeemed with Step I, Step II and your clinical grades.

    As for the hours, residency is the killer. You work very long hours (100+/wk) and you have very little flexibility in your schedule. After that, you can do whatever you want. There are tradeoffs -- you will not live in a fantastic location and make $500K on a fascinating and widely varied case load while working 35 hours a week and taking 12 weeks vacation per year in your very own solo practice. But you can find a practice that has any one of those characteristics, and probably several if you're lucky.
     
  7. rad

    rad Member
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    "you will not live in a fantastic location and make $500K on a fascinating and widely varied case load while working 35 hours a week and taking 12 weeks vacation per year in your very own solo practice"

    I know you are not talking about radiology <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
     
  8. johnM

    johnM Senior Member
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    thanks a lot Pilot.

    do radiologists really have it that plush??
     
  9. Pilot Doc

    Pilot Doc SDN Angel
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    Not quite, but where the a surgeon will pick the 1 or 2 things on that list he has to have, the radiologist will pick the one he can do without :)
     
  10. task

    task Senior Member
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    General Surgical fellowships, other than Plastics, are not all that difficult to match into if you do the right things -- letters, research and such. From what I understand, there are more spots than applicants for CT fellowship each year. Given the general downswing in people going into Gen Surg due to lifestyle, you gotta figure there are fewer people going into the tougher lifestyle fellowships (CT, Surg Onc) than ever before.

    If you're thinking about going the route of your Dad and brother, then one other thing you need to think about is the fact that interventional Cardiac procedures are advancing at a rapid clip to the point that in many cases they are supplanting or replacing the need for people to go under the knife at all. My dad is an internist, and 2 of his CT surg buddies specifically counseled me away from CT surg, if what I wanted to do was in the heart. Specifically, they told me that if I liked hearts, the future would be in Cardiology, not CT Surg. Don't get me wrong, there will always be a need for talented, capable CT surgeons who can do the job well. It's just that the evolution of the care of patients with heart disease, whether it be coronary or valvular, more and more is evolving toward the least invasive way to deal with things. Some interventionalists at Harvard already do percutaneous bypass experimentally, and there will one day be valves deployable by catheter. One of dad's buddies lamented the fact that as interventionalists get more and more aggressive, there were fewer cases for him to take to the OR.

    One other thing -- getting "invasive" Cards is different than interventional. Invasive guys do diagnostic cath, but not intervention. Interventionalists do PTCA, stent, rotablator, laser myomectomy, peripheral intervention, etc. etc. If you still need a knife, you could always do EP and implant AICDs and pacemakers. Indications for those procedures are exploding faster than there are EP docs to do them.

    Getting interventional Cards is probably the toughest thing to get as an IM subspecialist -- there are so few spots it's crazy and doesn't even meet the demand. My philosophy -- go to the best IM program you can get into, then the best Cards spot, and so on and so forth. To that end, it's definitely more competitive than Gen Surgery, or even CT to the extent that there are always open CT surg spots, but no interventional Cards spots.

    I don't know what year of med school you're in, but focus more on figuring out what you like and dislike about each rotation during third year, and realize that there's a lot of overlap (e.g. procedural IM subspcialties or more "cognitive" surgical subs like Trauma/CC). Find what fits you best.
     
  11. task

    task Senior Member
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    Oh, I should mention that from what I understand the most difficult Gen Surg fellowship to get is Pediatric Surgery.

    Also, if the S4 at the end of your name indicates the kind of car you drive, schweeeet! I have a Black/Black '01.
     
  12. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SurgeonS4:
    <strong>my father was a CT surgeon now recently retired. He worked long hours during residency, but then afterwards we worked from about 9 to 7 everyday during the week. On the weekends, he had half days . . . so he would be home by 1. I dont think that schedule is too bad. My brother is also a CT surgeon and he usually has call everyother week . . . but he usually has weekends off. So I think what is hitting people hard is the fact about residency work hours and years in training.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I think that schedule sounds pretty rough. But that's just me. I am more of a 9-5 guy, no weekends. That's why I would mainly be interested in path, derm, and perhaps ER. But I am thinking path sounds good for now...but what do I know, I'm not in med school yet.
     
  13. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pilot Doc:
    <strong> If you're the least bit personable and competent, you can get a general surgery spot.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does this bother anyone else???
     
  14. bigfrank

    bigfrank SDN Donor
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    Yes, it bothers me too, but I think we all know a little better than that. Surgeons are still among the most respected physicians in the world. Why? Because they work harder than anyone else and deserve people's respect. That fact, along with the inherent desire of many medical students to do surgery, will keep the field at least relatively competitive for many, many years.

    Lifestyle isn't everything to everyone.
     
  15. theD.O.C.

    theD.O.C. Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Firebird:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pilot Doc:
    <strong> If you're the least bit personable and competent, you can get a general surgery spot.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does this bother anyone else???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't sweat it. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and it usually stinks when other people go showing theirs off. The only thing that matters is if you like your career choice or not.
     
  16. joeski12

    joeski12 New Member

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    So if the field of surgery is becoming less desirable....what chance does an osteopathic student who has not taken the USMLE have of getting a allopathic surgery residency???
     

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