Graduate Medicine in Aus instead of UK

[pointodr]

Hi all

I am 34yo and work in finance in the UK. I have been accepted to UK grad med in the past but then got married and had kids and had to delay for a couple of years.

The plan has always been to return to grad med a year or two from now. Some friends moved to Australia a couple of years ago and absolutely love it. We visited and also fell in love with the lifestyle. Is it possible to do graduate Medicine here?

I've done a bit of research. Here are my main questions.

1. Given my age and my 12y career experience would it be possible to become a PR before applying, and therefore receive a CSP? Or are there other criteria (like X years residency prior to application) that I wouldn't meet? Being classified as an international student would be a non starter.

2. I am reading that specialty training is becoming much more competitive. Would my age and nationality be an impediment to my competitiveness?

3. What are the lifestyle and hours like for a junior doctor in Aus vs the UK?

4. What is the career outlook like for medicine in Aus in terms of supply / demand and regulation?

Thanks all!

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[marble30]

Hi all

I am 34yo and work in finance in the UK. I have been accepted to UK grad med in the past but then got married and had kids and had to delay for a couple of years.

The plan has always been to return to grad med a year or two from now. Some friends moved to Australia a couple of years ago and absolutely love it. We visited and also fell in love with the lifestyle. Is it possible to do graduate Medicine here?

I've done a bit of research. Here are my main questions.

1. Given my age and my 12y career experience would it be possible to become a PR before applying, and therefore receive a CSP? Or are there other criteria (like X years residency prior to application) that I wouldn't meet? Being classified as an international student would be a non starter.

2. I am reading that specialty training is becoming much more competitive. Would my age and nationality be an impediment to my competitiveness?

3. What are the lifestyle and hours like for a junior doctor in Aus vs the UK?

4. What is the career outlook like for medicine in Aus in terms of supply / demand and regulation?

Thanks all!

Pretty much the answer to all your questions is that "it depends", which everyone hates to hear, but is nevertheless true...

1. If your occupation is on the long term SOL (MLTSSL) then yeah, you probably would qualify for PR though that process can take from anywhere from months to more than a year depending on what occupation you're in and how rural you're willing to go.
To my knowledge, there is no residency criteria for med school admissions though CSP spots are notoriously difficult to get (heck, even domestic FFP are hard to get these days).

2. Depends on the specialty. For example, if you're aiming for any surgical specialty or derm, then yes it definitely is.

3. UK (junior) doctors generally come to Australia to relax at work, because they find our workload so much lighter in comparison (and with better compensation too!). Have had this confirmed by at least 2 colleagues from the UK.

4. Depends on the specialty and what your goals are. If you're okay doing ED RMO/Registrar locums for the rest of your career, then yeah, there are plenty of spots. If you want to do derm, then be prepared for a long hard slog for extremely limited training and consultant positions. Same with surgery.

 

[Florentine]

Pretty much the answer to all your questions is that "it depends", which everyone hates to hear, but is nevertheless true...

1. If your occupation is on the long term SOL (MLTSSL) then yeah, you probably would qualify for PR though that process can take from anywhere from months to more than a year depending on what occupation you're in and how rural you're willing to go.
To my knowledge, there is no residency criteria for med school admissions though CSP spots are notoriously difficult to get (heck, even domestic FFP are hard to get these days).

2. Depends on the specialty. For example, if you're aiming for any surgical specialty or derm, then yes it definitely is.

3. UK (junior) doctors generally come to Australia to relax at work, because they find our workload so much lighter in comparison (and with better compensation too!). Have had this confirmed by at least 2 colleagues from the UK.

4. Depends on the specialty and what your goals are. If you're okay doing ED RMO/Registrar locums for the rest of your career, then yeah, there are plenty of spots. If you want to do derm, then be prepared for a long hard slog for extremely limited training and consultant positions. Same with surgery.

Thanks for sharing. You mention that derm/surg is competitive but what about something like psychiatry?

 

[pointodr]

Pretty much the answer to all your questions is that "it depends", which everyone hates to hear, but is nevertheless true...

1. If your occupation is on the long term SOL (MLTSSL) then yeah, you probably would qualify for PR though that process can take from anywhere from months to more than a year depending on what occupation you're in and how rural you're willing to go.
To my knowledge, there is no residency criteria for med school admissions though CSP spots are notoriously difficult to get (heck, even domestic FFP are hard to get these days).

2. Depends on the specialty. For example, if you're aiming for any surgical specialty or derm, then yes it definitely is.

3. UK (junior) doctors generally come to Australia to relax at work, because they find our workload so much lighter in comparison (and with better compensation too!). Have had this confirmed by at least 2 colleagues from the UK.

4. Depends on the specialty and what your goals are. If you're okay doing ED RMO/Registrar locums for the rest of your career, then yeah, there are plenty of spots. If you want to do derm, then be prepared for a long hard slog for extremely limited training and consultant positions. Same with surgery.

Thanks very much!

What are the criteria looked at for CSP spots?

I am mainly interested in emergency medicine and intensive care. How competitive are these?

Thanks

 

[marble30]

Thanks very much!

What are the criteria looked at for CSP spots?

I am mainly interested in emergency medicine and intensive care. How competitive are these?

Thanks

Both fields are undersubscribed so you definitely won't be having any trouble getting a job in those fields as a junior doc. In fact, I'd say at least 40% of locum spots are ED jobs.
However, to my knowledge, most hospitals are cutting down on the number of consultant spots for those 2 specialties.

 

[marble30]

Thanks for sharing. You mention that derm/surg is competitive but what about something like psychiatry?

It's not that competitive, though I have known applicants that the psych training college has rejected so it's not like it's a sure thing.

 

[pointodr]

Both fields are undersubscribed so you definitely won't be having any trouble getting a job in those fields as a junior doc. In fact, I'd say at least 40% of locum spots are ED jobs.
However, to my knowledge, most hospitals are cutting down on the number of consultant spots for those 2 specialties.

Ok thanks. Youve been incredibly helpful. I hope you don't mind if I ask a couple more questions.

1. Ok so it's not unreasonable to assume a Jr doc could train in ER at a non rural location for their whole training and not having to move around (I have a family)?

2. Would being older and not an Australian citizen (PR instead) hurt your competitiveness for a CSP spot? If so, is this explicit or an unwritten law?

3. Same as #2 but for training places in EM and other specialties.

4. How are CSP places allocated and how competitive are they? Do they just look at GPA and GAMSAT or are there other criteria? Are gradmed applicants less likely to get one of these spots?

Again, thanks !

 

[pitman]

1. Not unreasonable, since ED training is all in metro and regional centres. Just don't expect a specific metro centre.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Schools get allocated CSP numbers by the feds in negotiation with the states, but they have their own admissions criteria. Competitiveness depends on the med school (UQ as one example: extremely competitive for GAMSAT and GPA, in part because there's no interview, in part because they reserve about 1/3 the class for *top* high school grads who were guaranteed a spot so long as they get a science uni degree with reasonable grades, while another 1/3 is reserved for full-fee int'l students). CSP spots are extremely competitive at any of the older/traditional schools, less so for the ones established over the past decade or so. Generally, all are far more competitive than for int'l student spots.

 

[Andology]

There are two categories of applicants to apply for Aus schools:

Domestic student (Australian PR, citizens and NZ citizens), it is very hard to get into medical schools. Stats are getting crazier every year: GPA 6.8/7 and GAMSAT 68 (92 percentile) to just get an interview, after that you have 60% of getting in. Once you are an Aus PR, you will always be considered a domestic student and it might be impossible to get into med school with average stats.

International student (non-PR), it is quite easy to get into medical schools, stats for internationals are way lower. The only thing is the tuition fees are high, lowest is Griffith at $64k (~£34k) per year.

So if your stats are average, GAMSAT<68 and GPA is not at least first class and you do not have the money to apply as an international, do medical schools in the UK then come to Aus after graduation. You just need to find a job and work for one year as a RMO to gain registration, no tests.

 

[pointodr]

There are two categories of applicants to apply for Aus schools:

Domestic student (Australian PR, citizens and NZ citizens), it is very hard to get into medical schools. Stats are getting crazier every year: GPA 6.8/7 and GAMSAT 68 (92 percentile) to just get an interview, after that you have 60% of getting in. Once you are an Aus PR, you will always be considered a domestic student and it might be impossible to get into med school with average stats.

International student (non-PR), it is quite easy to get into medical schools, stats for internationals are way lower. The only thing is the tuition fees are high, lowest is Griffith at $64k (~£34k) per year.

So if your stats are average, GAMSAT<68 and GPA is not at least first class and you do not have the money to apply as an international, do medical schools in the UK then come to Aus after graduation. You just need to find a job and work for one year as a RMO to gain registration, no tests.

Thanks for this.

After doing some research it seems you are spot on. It also seems that most graduate medicine programs don't accept people who studied over 10y ago.

So if I did UK med school and then wanted to train/practice in Oz what would be the best way to go about this? Move after F1 or F2? Would I be at a disadvantage not being from Oz in terms of training spots?

Thanks all

 

[sean80439]

It is exceptionally difficult to obtain a training spot as an intern if you trained outside of Australia. Easier if you are an RMO.

 

[pointodr]

It is exceptionally difficult to obtain a training spot as an intern if you trained outside of Australia. Easier if you are an RMO.

Thanks Sean

So this means you'd come after F1 or F2?

 

[sean80439]

I don’t know what that means. Is that # of post grad years?

 

[pointodr]

I don’t know what that means. Is that # of post grad years?

Yes in the UK you have two generalist years immediately post med school, called F1 and F2. Then you apply for specialist training.

 

[marble30]

Most of the UK grads I know come to Australia following F2 completion.

 

[pointodr]

Most of the UK grads I know come to Australia following F2 completion.

Thanks! Yes I've heard the same although it seems most are there for a year out and do locum work rather than continuing to train. Any idea if it's easy to continue training in Oz and if a UK grad PR would be at a disadvantage to an Oz grad citizen?

 

[marble30]

Thanks! Yes I've heard the same although it seems most are there for a year out and do locum work rather than continuing to train. Any idea if it's easy to continue training in Oz and if a UK grad PR would be at a disadvantage to an Oz grad citizen?

I don't think getting onto training is hard but most of them will do locum work as the UK year is about 5-6 months off as the clinical year in the UK finishes August whereas ours finishes Jan/Feb (depending on the state). So there's naturally a gap of a few months before the new clinical year starts.

The locum work may also be to get more australian experience before they can apply to the relevant colleges (such as to get references in that field I presume). I don't think there's a major disadvantage for Crit care/ED though.

 

[Andology]

Thanks for this.

After doing some research it seems you are spot on. It also seems that most graduate medicine programs don't accept people who studied over 10y ago.

So if I did UK med school and then wanted to train/practice in Oz what would be the best way to go about this? Move after F1 or F2? Would I be at a disadvantage not being from Oz in terms of training spots?

Thanks all

Technically, you can only move after completing F1 year (equivalent to the internship year in Australia) and gain general registration in the UK. Getting an internship (~ F1) in Aus as a non-local graduate is almost impossible now as they are reserved for local graduates (the same as FP is reserved for local UK graduates). But normally you must also complete F2 also to gain more experience before applying for RMO spot in Australia and also eligible for ST training in the UK as a backup.

You can apply for doing electives in Australia during your fourth year in medical school to have an understanding of what the system in Australia is like. There are many well-known places to do like USyd, Monash that have the best hospitals in Australia, albeit the price is not cheap but still manageable.

 

[pointodr]

Hi all

Sorry to revive this from the dead

I was wondering if it is difficult for an intl grad med student (ie a non oz resident who did grad med at an oz med school) to get a training spot competing vs domestic students?