Gratitude - Reflections of a disgruntled ER doctor

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dozitgetchahi said:
I was gonna say…I know a number of chemical, mechanical, biotech engineers from college. None of these people are making $300k a year. Some aren’t even making six figures.
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In 2008-2010 my dad, who is a chemical engineer, was making 200k with bechtel. Before that he was in pakistan making $1200/month 🤣

Starting salaries back in 2012 were around 100-120k from top tier schools. I dropped out of chemical engineering and switched to biochemistry so i know a bunch of them.

My chemical engineering ex gf makes a lot more than 300k as the VP of an energy company - but that’s probably more because of her Harvard mba.

My knowledge is out dated now, but i doubt 300k is anywhere near ‘average’ for chemical engineering.
 
cyanide12345678 said:
My chemical engineering ex gf makes a lot more than 300k as the VP of an energy company - but that’s probably more because of her Harvard mba.
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It’s not because of her Harvard MBA, it’s because she’s the VP of a company. Also, at that level she’s a chemical engineer in name only. Like a CMO who doesn’t see patients anymore is basically a physician in name only.

At many energy companies, mainly do to their location, an MBA from A&M or Texas would likely benefit you than one from an Ivy.
 
Most of my college friends that are engineers make 200-300k a year. One dude has his own company and makes way more than that.
 
Porfirio said:
One dude has his own company and makes way more than that.
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I’d say the average engineer doesn’t own their own company.

Nobody said there aren’t engineers out there that don’t make good money so all these anecdotes are pointless. Physicians are typically high achievers so there’s a better chance their peer group will also be relative high achievers in their field.

My non-medical friends could get into a discussion with someone who says the average EM physician pay is $X then they’d say they know somebody who makes $X+Y. Either fact doesn’t change the other.
 
My spouse does well in electrical engineering (specifically microchips, now dabbling in AI). I don’t know enough about engineering on the whole to say where that falls among all engineers.

ETA: job structure is appealing as well. Plenty of opportunities to WFH, structure your schedule around other things going on in your life (“as long as the work gets done”), etc… No one field has it all, but from where I stand it’s not terrible.
 
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Out of all the computer engineers that I remained friends with I am making the most right. I live in a nice neighborhood where I have met pharma reps, NPs, etc but have not met an engineer yet. Again this is all my experience and anecdotal. Every ER doctor I have met was making atleast 300k. Every Engineer (multiple spouses of attendings, friends, extended family, friends of wife who even worked in automotive as engineers) that I met maxed out at 150k without going into management which really doesn't become engineering anymore. Unless you went to the top 10 Ivy schools and got recruited for SWE I think this would be the norm. I even worked with chemical engineers at Georgia pacific in Wisconsin who had a starting pay from 70-90k. It's like saying every computer engineer is developing chips for NVDA which isn't true.

SWE 90% approaches this
1768135533429.png

Here it is for computer engineers
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And here it is for ER docs
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So our part-time makes what the 90% tile makes for SWE. The 1 mil plus ER physician does exist but is working 80 hours a week. I have approached close to that number purely working before too.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
It’s not because of her Harvard MBA, it’s because she’s the VP of a company. Also, at that level she’s a chemical engineer in name only. Like a CMO who doesn’t see patients anymore is basically a physician in name only.

At many energy companies, mainly do to their location, an MBA from A&M or Texas would likely benefit you than one from an Ivy.
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There actually is a benefit for IVY leagues. A few of my friends and I looked at this and the difference between a MBA from UM, Stanford, Harvard, got you better jobs, more money, etc. The data supports it too.
1768136204175.png


Can you get upward mobility without it, sure but Harvard MBA definitely carries more power than an MBA from University of Florida.

Bain & Company, McKinsey & Company, and Boston Consulting Group (BCG) love recruiting from the top tier MBA programs as well. Won't even give us normies a chance most of the time unless we did something big.
 
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In regards to job structure alot of the WFH friends are getting called back. Good buddy just laid of from Amazon after years of working there under the last round of cuts. Good SWE with good exp under her belt. Alot of WFH flexibility is being reeled back in now too. Grass isn't any greener.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
In regards to job structure alot of the WFH friends are getting called back. Good buddy just laid of from Amazon after years of working there under the last round of cuts. Good SWE with good exp under her belt. Alot of WFH flexibility is being reeled back in now too. Grass isn't any greener.
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My grass is still well fertilized

As long as I bring in the millions no one seems to care about how/when I work

The cog only knows it is well-greased
 
AlmostAnMD said:
My grass is still well fertilized

As long as I bring in the millions no one seems to care about how/when I work

The cog only knows it is well-greased
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That's great to hear. I did the PA program for a little while (started it at my place). CMO decided to bring people back in, I quit. I mention it because I know that's what you got into and then moved up. Good to hear about your exit.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
There actually is a benefit for IVY leagues. A few of my friends and I looked at this and the difference between a MBA from UM, Stanford, Harvard, got you better jobs, more money, etc. The data supports it too. View attachment 413853

Can you get upward mobility without it, sure but Harvard MBA definitely carries more power than an MBA from University of Florida.

Bain & Company, McKinsey & Company, and Boston Consulting Group (BCG) love recruiting from the top tier MBA programs as well. Won't even give us normies a chance most of the time unless we did something big.
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Great research but I wasn’t talking about in general, I was talking about energy companies who aren’t usually headquartered on the coasts. If I’m aiming for a c-suite position at an energy company headquartered in Texas, my network through A&M or Texas will likely be much more valuable than a network through an Ivy with minimal energy industry contacts.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
Great research but I wasn’t talking about in general, I was talking about energy companies who aren’t usually headquartered on the coasts. If I’m aiming for a c-suite position at an energy company headquartered in Texas, my network through A&M or Texas will likely be much more valuable than a network through an Ivy with minimal energy industry contacts.
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  • Darren Woods (ExxonMobil): Electrical Engineering (Texas A&M) + MBA (Kellogg, Northwestern).
  • Anders Opedal (Equinor): Petroleum Engineering background, leading energy transition.
  • Lynn Jurich (Sunrun): Stanford undergrad + MBA (Stanford GSB), focusing on renewables.
  • Mike Wirth (Chevron): Engineering background, overseeing energy transition efforts.
  • Joe Gorder (Valero): Business Administration + MBA (Our Lady of the Lake University).
Marathon's guy got it from University of Dayton. A&M doesn't have the magical power it once possessed. I think there use to be the connection to Texas and oil money staying local but doesn't apply as broadly as it once did. Darren Woods for his MBA left for Kellogg eventhough he did his undergrad at A&M. Kind of funny there.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
Bain & Company, McKinsey & Company, and Boston Consulting Group (BCG) love recruiting from the top tier MBA programs as well. Won't even give us normies a chance most of the time unless we did something big.
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If you become partner at the big 4 or even some smaller, yes you will make $1M+. But I can not think of a worse job from two people I know well, one partner and one director (one step away). The partner's work life balance is miserable, never home, wife hates life, kids have little relationship, dude is a shell of himself when I met 12 yrs ago.

The director is my niece who tells me her daily job is like 8am-10pm/mn 5/6 dys a week and then days off she is always available on call. She has no interest in stepping up to partner and actively interviewing for other jobs.
 
emergentmd said:
If you become partner at the big 4 or even some smaller, yes you will make $1M+. But I can not think of a worse job from two people I know well, one partner and one director (one step away). The partner's work life balance is miserable, never home, wife hates life, kids have little relationship, dude is a shell of himself when I met 12 yrs ago.

The director is my niece who tells me her daily job is like 8am-10pm/mn 5/6 dys a week and then days off she is always available on call. She has no interest in stepping up to partner and actively interviewing for other jobs.
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Absolutely agree with you. For that income I would rather work 80 hours in the ED a week instead of being a partner. I did my time with consulting back in the day. Not a fan. One of my friends is a director at PWC currently and it is a miserable existence.
 
I got my degree in EE, have family/friends in engineering so I feel I have a good sense of their income/lifestyle. Yes, there are people who are minorities who hit it big via Stock options or now in the VP+levels who outperform docs. BUT this is a small minority. The vast majority do not make as much as the vast majority of ER docs. It is not even close. We don't talk money but you can tell by their money stress/lifestyle. Let me be clear, The vast majority of engineers DO NOT make 300K+/yr.

Just like most ER docs do not make 600K+/yr. I can name many many ER docs who make 1M+/yr, I can actually name you about 30+ easily BUT we did not make it working shifts just like these high flying Engineers did not make it "engineering".

Like a Venn diagram, there is a very small overlap in income and I am confident in saying that if you took 100 engineers and 100 ER docs randomly, you may get 5 engineers that overlaps.

Plus, I have seen a few engineers lose their jobs recently and good luck finding something remotely similar at age 40+. They are essentially screwed. ER docs can find similar paying jobs tomorrow.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
Absolutely agree with you. For that income I would rather work 80 hours in the ED a week instead of being a partner. I did my time with consulting back in the day. Not a fan. One of my friends is a director at PWC currently and it is a miserable existence.
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I just smirk when I see people say how great/easy it is to make bucks at the big 4. #1 it is HARD. #2 There is a buy in #3 it takes time to reach $1M as a partner #4 the road is HARD #5 The road is HARDER when you hit partner #6 imagine residency with travelling and having to kiss butt for the rest of your life.
 
emergentmd said:
I just smirk when I see people say how great/easy it is to make bucks at the big 4. #1 it is HARD. #2 There is a buy in #3 it takes time to reach $1M as a partner #4 the road is HARD #5 The road is HARDER when you hit partner #6 imagine residency with travelling and having to kiss butt for the rest of your life.
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The butt kissing is the hardest part. I can be who I want here and still have job (obviously without being extreme). In consulting jobs trying to get your managers to like you for your bonus/promotions was always a pain. One person who dislikes you can mess your career mobility in the company up. HR isn't a friend in corporate either like people think.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
  • Darren Woods (ExxonMobil): Electrical Engineering (Texas A&M) + MBA (Kellogg, Northwestern).
  • Anders Opedal (Equinor): Petroleum Engineering background, leading energy transition.
  • Lynn Jurich (Sunrun): Stanford undergrad + MBA (Stanford GSB), focusing on renewables.
  • Mike Wirth (Chevron): Engineering background, overseeing energy transition efforts.
  • Joe Gorder (Valero): Business Administration + MBA (Our Lady of the Lake University).
Marathon's guy got it from University of Dayton. A&M doesn't have the magical power it once possessed. I think there use to be the connection to Texas and oil money staying local but doesn't apply as broadly as it once did. Darren Woods for his MBA left for Kellogg eventhough he did his undergrad at A&M. Kind of funny there.
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I’m not sure what this list is supposed to show. Is it supposed to show that there are people from the Ivies in the energy industry? If so, nobody said there wasn’t. Now it’s just the engineer making $300k argument.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
I’m not sure what this list is supposed to show. Is it supposed to show that there are people from the Ivies in the energy industry? If so, nobody said there wasn’t. Now it’s just the engineer making $300k argument.
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Oh boy you are in the mood to just argue for the sake of it. It points out that A&M doesn't rule the energy sector leadership like you claimed and IVY leagues do hold weight in the fortune 500 leadership area. That's the only point. I don't think there is anymore use beating this dead horse if you're gonna keep changing the goal post.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
Oh boy you are in the mood to just argue for the sake of it. It points out that A&M doesn't rule the energy sector leadership like you claimed and IVY leagues do hold weight in the fortune 500 leadership area. That's the only point. I don't think there is anymore use beating this dead horse if you're gonna keep changing the goal post.
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I think you've pretty much skimmed all of my posts because all of your posts have been refuting points that I haven’t been making:

"I was talking about energy companies who aren’t usually headquartered on the coasts. If I’m aiming for a c-suite position at an energy company headquartered in Texas, my network through A&M or Texas will likely be much more valuable than a network through an Ivy with minimal energy industry contacts."

I haven't said anything about Fortune 500 companies. I've mentioned energy companies not headquartered on the coast. There are likely hundreds of them that you haven't heard of with significant assets. Some are public but most are likely private. I haven't said any particular university has a monopoly on the energy sector. The point you're trying to make has no bearing on what I've been talking about. I'll re-state it again. If you want to move up the chain in the energy industry I've mentioned, you're likely better off getting an MBA from a Texas school over an Ivy because of the network that provides. That has nothing to do with the quality of the MBA or the average pay of an MBA from a certain institution. My friends in the O&G industry would agree.
 
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SeekerOfTheTree said:
Out of all the computer engineers that I remained friends with I am making the most right. I live in a nice neighborhood where I have met pharma reps, NPs, etc but have not met an engineer yet. Again this is all my experience and anecdotal. Every ER doctor I have met was making atleast 300k. Every Engineer (multiple spouses of attendings, friends, extended family, friends of wife who even worked in automotive as engineers) that I met maxed out at 150k without going into management which really doesn't become engineering anymore. Unless you went to the top 10 Ivy schools and got recruited for SWE I think this would be the norm. I even worked with chemical engineers at Georgia pacific in Wisconsin who had a starting pay from 70-90k. It's like saying every computer engineer is developing chips for NVDA which isn't true.
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yeah, probably true. My husband has two ivy degrees, so I suspect he’s among the higher earners.

ETA: the stock options are a nice perk.
 
I lol at the 300k posts in engineering posts you have to be at a top school and luck out in the interview process. Medschool you just have to perform well academically and you have a 300k job. I went to a state school and did well but because I went to a state school I doubt these engineering jobs would give me a serious consideration.

Its far easier to make more in EM all you have to do is just work more shifts. Hell you can go to a sleepy ER in nowhere and do a bunch of 24 hour shifts as a locums and make 1 million.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
I think you've pretty much skimmed all of my posts because all of your posts have been refuting points that I haven’t been making:

"I was talking about energy companies who aren’t usually headquartered on the coasts. If I’m aiming for a c-suite position at an energy company headquartered in Texas, my network through A&M or Texas will likely be much more valuable than a network through an Ivy with minimal energy industry contacts."

I haven't said anything about Fortune 500 companies. I've mentioned energy companies not headquartered on the coast. There are likely hundreds of them that you haven't heard of with significant assets. Some are public but most are likely private. I haven't said any particular university has a monopoly on the energy sector. The point you're trying to make has no bearing on what I've been talking about. I'll re-state it again. If you want to move up the chain in the energy industry I've mentioned, you're likely better off getting an MBA from a Texas school over an Ivy because of the network that provides. That has nothing to do with the quality of the MBA or the average pay of an MBA from a certain institution. My friends in the O&G industry would agree.
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Fair point.
 
My Dad is a retired mechanical engineer. 30+ years in the industry, most of it working in the mideast. Worked as an engineer in Canada during the last few years of his career, before the company shut down its plant and moved to the US. He was making about 70k. I don't know a single engineer cracking six digits on his annual income.
 
bravotwozero said:
My Dad is a retired mechanical engineer. 30+ years in the industry, most of it working in the mideast. Worked as an engineer in Canada during the last few years of his career, before the company shut down its plant and moved to the US. He was making about 70k. I don't know a single engineer cracking six digits on his annual income.
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Extremely unusual.

My electrical engineer brother was making 70k equivalent when he was literally doing an internship at Intel as a junior.

My chemE dad was making 150k with worley parsons and then 200k with bechtel AFTER immigrating back to the US after 25 years of being an engineer in Pakistan.

And that was in the 2008 recession and he was 60 years old at the time. Most companies are looking for younger more tech savvy talent.

His entire resume was pakistan based except for back in the 80s when he worked in the US and did his masters from Vanderbilt.
 
cyanide12345678 said:
Extremely unusual.

My electrical engineer brother was making 70k equivalent when he was literally doing an internship at Intel as a junior.

My chemE dad was making 150k with worley parsons and then 200k with bechtel AFTER immigrating back to the US after 25 years of being an engineer in Pakistan.

And that was in the 2008 recession and he was 60 years old at the time. Most companies are looking for younger more tech savvy talent.

His entire resume was pakistan based except for back in the 80s when he worked in the US and did his masters from Vanderbilt.
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Perhaps because of his experience. This is the range for a current posting. Granted it is better than what was offered in 2005.

1768170766229.png
1768170798789.png

Based on his experience this report kind of more accurate. We are talking PhDs and 20 year exp in the report.

www.sunrecruiting.com

2025 Chemical Engineering Compensation Report - Sun Recruiting

This is a compensation report for US-Based Chemical Engineers for 2025. It is based on 1,761 unique data points taken via salary survey.
www.sunrecruiting.com www.sunrecruiting.com
 
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I don’t understand why this is even a disagreement. You take 100 full time Er docs and pull one out of the hat, 95 will be over 300k.

Do the same for any engineer (not management) and you may have 1or 2.

I will say some engineers who go into start ups may hit the jackpot if company goes public or sells. But hard w public/established companies.

Theee is a reason er docs avg over 300k and engineers are not even close
 
I am confused why we keep comparing a new grad Engineer to an attending doc. I feel like we forgot the residency years or even the medical school years. That’s 7 years of compound interest, 7 years of Engineer experience and yearly pay, and many firms would even pay for schooling (internships). By the time I finished residency my engineering friends had already built bridges/schools/oil platforms in the gulf/put in hundreds of miles of pipeline.
 
Porfirio said:
I am confused why we keep comparing a new grad Engineer to an attending doc. I feel like we forgot the residency years or even the medical school years. That’s 7 years of compound interest, 7 years of Engineer experience and yearly pay, and many firms would even pay for schooling (internships). By the time I finished residency my engineering friends had already built bridges/schools/oil platforms in the gulf/put in hundreds of miles of pipeline.
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It is because someone said that Engineers make as much as ER docs. This is just not true. If you want to talk about a 7 year head start, then we can have a real discussion. In all honesty, most would be better of going to trade school for 2 yrs after HS, and work hard to create their own business. The majority should never go to college and most degrees are useless.
 
While the job isn’t ideal, there aren’t many jobs outside of owning your own business that’s going to pay nearly 500k for 10-14 days of work a month
 
miamidoc101 said:
While the job isn’t ideal, there aren’t many jobs outside of owning your own business that’s going to pay nearly 500k for 10-14 days of work a month
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The fallacy is that those 10-14 days don't account for recovery as a result of circadian rhythm disruption, or the general dysphoria having to miss key life events working many holidays and weekends. Really when people talk about "only working 10-14 days" it continues to perpetuate the myth that EM is a lifestyle specialty.

Also who is making 500k working 10 shifts? Even 12-12's making 500k would be above average pay.
 
miamidoc101 said:
While the job isn’t ideal, there aren’t many jobs outside of owning your own business that’s going to pay nearly 500k for 10-14 days of work a month
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There aren't really a whole lot of owners like you mentioned out there. Yes, someone will chime in that they know someone who owns their own business and works 5 hours a week but that's the exception. Most business owners are small business owners and that typically comes with quite a bit of work as well as being available 24/7.
 
GatorCHOMPions said:
The fallacy is that those 10-14 days don't account for recovery as a result of circadian rhythm disruption, or the general dysphoria having to miss key life events working many holidays and weekends. Really when people talk about "only working 10-14 days" it continues to perpetuate the myth that EM is a lifestyle specialty.

Also who is making 500k working 10 shifts? Even 12-12's making 500k would be above average pay.
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Most people miss life events period a lot of jobs yeah there is circadian rhythm issues but you can work half as much and 12x12s for 275 which isn't that hard to get in the south or mid west is about 475k.

Even for a lot of kids games one of the parents have to be working. You can easily work 6 shifts a month as a locums. Most 150K+ jobs are not chill or lifestyle I don't know why people keep thinking this
 
It’s truly sad what EM has become. One of my best friends is an orthopod and I truly believe he would do ortho for free because he loves it so much.

I on the other hand won’t consider any em w2 job under $250/hr or locums under $350.
 
Major said:
It’s truly sad what EM has become. One of my best friends is an orthopod and I truly believe he would do ortho for free because he loves it so much.

I on the other hand won’t consider any em w2 job under $250/hr or locums under $350.
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Congrats to your buddy but the number of people in America who would do their job for free is exceedingly low.
 
Major said:
It’s truly sad what EM has become. One of my best friends is an orthopod and I truly believe he would do ortho for free because he loves it so much.

I on the other hand won’t consider any em w2 job under $250/hr or locums under $350.
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In Ortho you fix people. Restore mobility. Improve quality of life.

In EM...you panscan demented Grandma's and work up chest pain in 28 year olds
 
Major said:
So? That’s clearly not the point I was making and you know that.
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I guess that’d be my response to your post. So? I don’t know what a happy orthopod has to do with you not wanting to work for below market rates.

I’d pass on the average ortho job in a heartbeat.
 
Major said:
It’s truly sad what EM has become. One of my best friends is an orthopod and I truly believe he would do ortho for free because he loves it so much.

I on the other hand won’t consider any em w2 job under $250/hr or locums under $350.
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He loves it so much b/c he is prob making a butt load of money and likes his job. Take a 50% cut and he would be unhappy. I always liked EM and had a funny story in my first EM job.

SDG, was told pay is biweekly. 1st paycheck after taxes was like 7K.... I thought, this kind of sucks b/c that comes out to about 14K after taxes a month so about 18K pretax or about 215K. Was promised more but coming from a 30K/yr residency, still felt like I hit the jackpot.

Found out that the 1st 2 wk check was a small amount and the 2nd was determined after collections. Turned out to be about 14K so it was 300K/yr. I didn't dislike the job any less but I would say if they cut my 400K/yr job in half years later, I would be unhappy.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
If you ever feel ungrateful, head out to a rig location in West Texas wearing your scrubs and start complaining about how you have to work 130 hours a month including evenings, nights, weekends, and holidays and you only get a total comp of $500k. Decent chance you might get popped in the face before you even get to how much you make.
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It's funny that you say that because there was a poster in the premed/med school forums who used to work on rigs and always said that everyone was complaining too much sitting in their comfortable chairs in their climate controlled rooms. I believe he went to a do school but dropped out in 3rd year to go back to the rigs.
 
For the past 15 years, I have brought our 12' Christmas Tree up from basement storage up one floor. Comes in 8 pieces, heavy. Doing this when I was in my late 30s was doable and took probably 2 hrs. Last 5 years wears me out and legs sore til next morning. I am not out of shape, run 3 times a week and weights once a week. This year paid someone to lug/put it up.

I could not imagine doing a job like lawn care, HVAC, or roofing long term. I rather do 60 hrs in med school or 80 hrs in residency than 40 hrs/wk in lawncare/roofing.
 
A looooooooooooong time ago I worked with my dad at the phone company. I had my own phone truck, and split my time installing landline phones (a thing of the past) and collecting money from payphones (not sure kids even know what that is now).

Man, I had a blast. Pay was ass but probably the most fun I had, driving around the city fixing/installing phones and actually knowing how to get coins out of a payphone.

Sometimes simplicity truly is bliss.
 
emergentmd said:
For the past 15 years, I have brought our 12' Christmas Tree up from basement storage up one floor. Comes in 8 pieces, heavy. Doing this when I was in my late 30s was doable and took probably 2 hrs. Last 5 years wears me out and legs sore til next morning. I am not out of shape, run 3 times a week and weights once a week. This year paid someone to lug/put it up.

I could not imagine doing a job like lawn care, HVAC, or roofing long term. I rather do 60 hrs in med school or 80 hrs in residency than 40 hrs/wk in lawncare/roofing.
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HIT THE GYM WITH ME, BRO.
 
AlmostAnMD said:
Man, I had a blast. Pay was ass but probably the most fun I had, driving around the city fixing/installing phones and actually knowing how to get coins out of a payphone.
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Speaking of getting coins out, back in the days when I was kid I loved heading to the airport to drop off/pick up relatives. They still had the luggage carts that you needed to put coins into, that people would leave without returning the carts. I'd return the carts and get the coins, 20 bucks worth at a time. That was lot as a kid lol
 
Brigade4Radiant said:
Most people miss life events period a lot of jobs yeah there is circadian rhythm issues but you can work half as much and 12x12s for 275 which isn't that hard to get in the south or mid west is about 475k.

Even for a lot of kids games one of the parents have to be working. You can easily work 6 shifts a month as a locums. Most 150K+ jobs are not chill or lifestyle I don't know why people keep thinking this
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Most people keep thinking it because they've never worked a regular full-time job for more than a summer. Or they just forget. Some people need to get out and touch grass.
 
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