Great jobs in pathology (new)

[2121115]

Yeah What positions? Doggie Style......or maybe something with a future like the dirty sanchez.. you decide ( I had to, that one was too easy)

Post of the year, IMO! Ha! I'm still laughing at this one.

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[Psychopathology]

I love path. Couldn't pay me enough to become a radiologist, anesthesiologist, or surgeon (although I've got friends in all fields who love what they do). But, ouch. The side by side academic salary comparison is shocking. We train hard for many years like our colleagues and I'd like to have the same sort of lifestyle as they have.

 

[v112233s]

Thanks exPCM! Excellent posts for the young to see. 5+ years of training for $100k, thousands of dollars in loan. No wonder a pathology senior attending I worked with told me after tumor board that if he were to do residency again, he would pick radiology ?!!! What a pity....

Well, seeing these figures, I guess he has good reasons.... a 4x difference in salary! From your list, it looks like a director of surgical path is ~$140k, and associate professor is $110k, and many are not IMGs. Am I right?

To be honest, one can also notice the difference in lifestyle between academic attendings of high paying vs low paying specialties in a hospital. For example, I have seen radiology & surgery attendings drive nicer cars, have maids at home to clean/cook, dress better, going out to nice lunches (paying for the students who tag along), while some pathology attendings bring their own lunch from left over home cooked food the night prior. Of course you can say all these are superficial, but they could very well be indications of terrible salary. The funny thing is this senior attending actually encourages students to go into pathology, but he himself would rather do something else. Isn't that something? BTW, on the tax forms, the radiologists reportedly work 40 hours, while the pathologists work 50.

Apparently, pathology department can make a lot of money for the hospital. How can that translate into your paycheck? Can pathologists negotiate? Why can't the pathologists bargain for more? I sometimes get the hunch that academic pathologists feel inferior/insecure when compared to attendings from other specialties (maybe salary has something to do with it?). They seem to feel the need to prove themselves or prove that their job is important. Does this lack of confidence affect your ability to negotiate for more income? I am asking here b/c I don't think student can ask this type of questions during your rotation.

 

[v112233s]

Comment: 129K starting pay in Boston - sweet! Dr. Remick: With all this talk of great jobs what is the starting salary for a new pathologist in your department in Boston?.[/B]

I assume all Boston programs offer comparable salary figures, so whatever is offered at BU is probably a good indication of what's offered at the other institutions. Right?

 

[Gyric]

http://www2.kumc.edu/pathology/faculty.html

Look carefully at this screen capture from the Form 990 (These form 990s are Public Records - I found them posted on the internet after hearing about them from a vascular surgeon at the hospital where I worked earlier this year) to see the salaries of the five highest paid pathologists other than the directors in the public record form 990.
We see salaries down to 106k for the "highest paid".

Curious that the cytogeneticist is the highest paid member of the Kansas pathology department? I am wondering if that only accounts for partial salaries and only for some members of the department? We need a local to comment; I agree the disparity is absurd even if the average pathologist is at 250, but those numbers seem too low to believe. In my area starting surgical pathologists (ast profs) are close to 200 after a typical 15-30k bonus and the professors are around 300.

 

[KeratinPearls]

http://www2.kumc.edu/pathology/faculty.html

Look carefully at this screen capture from the Form 990 (These form 990s are Public Records - I found them posted on the internet after hearing about them from a vascular surgeon at the hospital where I worked earlier this year) to see the salaries of the five highest paid pathologists other than the directors in the public record form 990.
We see salaries down to 106k for the "highest paid".

Wow that is seriously sad. What is even sadder are those that take these jobs. BTW I ran into a few pathologists the other day in an alley.

One of the former fellows from MGH.

Former Chair of Stanford Path

Penn resident who couldnt find a job after finishing residency
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_orkXxp0bh...ASsM/JM29NxTwH_I/s1600/090524-homeless-10.jpg

 

[LADoc00]

LMAO@Dr. M. Cunnigham...106 for 40hrs/week? WTFFF. That maybe the worst hourly wage I have EVER heard of. My local Porsche mechanic, born in Jalisco Mexico, with a GED makes more!! My plumber OWNS this entire group. I wouldnt even pay a locums provider this little.

Dr. Cunningham I would strongly advise you to look into the "Cash for Clunkers" program, good $ for you. bwhahahaha.


Where are you getting all these returns? Is there like a central database somewhere??

Im not joking, you would haven been FAR FAR better off saving the $$ from college/medical school and opening a 7-Eleven/Quickie Mart in Kansas City. LOL.

Oh my, Im really laughing here all embarassing myself with the neighbors because my window is open..

 

[v112233s]

Wow that is seriously sad. What is even sadder are those that take these jobs.

I indeed feel sorry for those who take these jobs. I was thinking along the same line that some higher paid supermarket managers (without the degree & loan) are paid close to 100k.

Even sadder.... I think some of those are mudphuds, probably attracted to pathology b/c of "research potential." Some are indeed AMGs trained at top fellowship programs.....

 

[v112233s]

LMAO@Dr. M. Cunnigham...106 for 40hrs/week? WTFFF. That maybe the worst hourly wage I have EVER heard of. My local Porsche mechanic, born in Jalisco Mexico, with a GED makes more!! My plumber OWNS this entire group. I wouldnt even pay a locums provider this little.

Dr. Cunningham I would strongly advise you to look into the "Cash for Clunkers" program, good $ for you. bwhahahaha.


Where are you getting all these returns? Is there like a central database somewhere??

Im not joking, you would haven been FAR FAR better off saving the $$ from college/medical school and opening a 7-Eleven/Quickie Mart in Kansas City. LOL.

I wonder if Dr. Cunningham (and his group) come here... Maybe the academic attendings should visit this site more for a reality check. Note, Dr. Madan is not mentioned b/c he is taking home $7000 more.

 

[exPCM]

Curious that the cytogeneticist is the highest paid member of the Kansas pathology department? I am wondering if that only accounts for partial salaries and only for some members of the department? We need a local to comment; I agree the disparity is absurd even if the average pathologist is at 250, but those numbers seem too low to believe. In my area starting surgical pathologists (ast profs) are close to 200 after a typical 15-30k bonus and the professors are around 300.

These are total compensation figures as reported to the IRS.
The department chairs will make more money but I did not cut and paste the chair salaries because I wanted to show an apples to apples comparison of the more junior and mid-level attendings.
For example these are the director level salaries at Stony Brook Rads:

If somebody wants to go through and cut and paste all the chair and director salaries that is fine. However the point remains that path salaries are much lower than their gas, rads, and surgery colleagues in general. I would be very surprised to find any full-time radiology faculty member working for 106K as I have shown for 2 pathologists (1 each at Kansas and Stony Brook) in a quick search. The reason that they can get by with paying pathologists so poorly is due to the oversupply of pathologists. v112233s has given an excellent analysis in a post above. What is even worse is that these are the "highest paid". This means that there are likely pathologists at these institutions who are being paid even less!

 

[Dermbound00]

LMAO@Dr. M. Cunnigham...106 for 40hrs/week? WTFFF. That maybe the worst hourly wage I have EVER heard of. My local Porsche mechanic, born in Jalisco Mexico, with a GED makes more!! My plumber OWNS this entire group. I wouldnt even pay a locums provider this little.

Dr. Cunningham I would strongly advise you to look into the "Cash for Clunkers" program, good $ for you. bwhahahaha.


Where are you getting all these returns? Is there like a central database somewhere??

Im not joking, you would haven been FAR FAR better off saving the $$ from college/medical school and opening a 7-Eleven/Quickie Mart in Kansas City. LOL.

Oh my, Im really laughing here all embarassing myself with the neighbors because my window is open..

LMAO great post! Seriously, if you are full-time and getting paid 120K or below, you deserve to be crapped on.

The problem also is that we have a lot of FMGs in our field who have no clue what salary they should be getting, and are accepting jobs for 100K and below for private practice. Meanwhile the head of the group is making over 500K and doing half the work and there is a retired pathologist sitting at home watching Family Feud making 200K.

When I was interviewing for pathology residency 6 years ago, a resident told me there are plenty of jobs in pathology, just very few good jobs. There are plenty of private practice groups looking to take advantage of a newly trained graduate. Good jobs are very hard, if not impossible to find, unless you have some incredible connections. There are plenty of bad jobs out there like I described above, but you might as well be a PA (get paid the same but do not have the same risk of putting your name on the line and getting sued).

 

[v112233s]

The problem also is that we have a lot of FMGs in our field who have no clue what salary they should be getting, and are accepting jobs for 100K and below for private practice. Meanwhile the head of the group is making over 500K and doing half the work and there is a retired pathologist sitting at home watching Family Feud making 200K.

Maybe this is true for some IMGs in private practice, but not all. I've met a path IMG who had amazing stats/record (USMLE in high 250-260s and 3 first author pubs, a record that's far better than mine), and she said the only reason she aspires to working in the US is b/c of the research potential here. That is, she wants a lab, and a high-profile one. As a matter of fact, she clearly stated that IMGs who make it to the top programs here are usually selected for certain reasons. For her, she said her income would be higher back home (factor in GDP, buying power, and the amount of $ she can save, I believe), and she will have no problem hiring a full time maid, nanny, and possibly even a driver. On the other hand, her income here won't even allow her to buy a nice abode in more urban cities back home, not to say she won't be able to afford having nannies, etc, here.

From what I see, she is very far from being clueless, and she certainly understands what type of salary is acceptable in the US. However, when you are looking for academic jobs, I think young trainees have very little bargain power in the academia. That is, she can only take whatever is advertised or offered in the dept. I wouldn't blame poor academic salary on some IMGs being clueless. Something else must be done. The academic salary is bizarrely low for path, even when compared to other specialties that traditionally have many IMGs (neurology, IM, FM, psychiatry etc). I think young pathologists need to take more active steps in demanding for better compensation, esp since pathology is a money-making dept in the hospital. I don't see why pathologists don't deserve more.

 

[Dermbound00]

Maybe this is true for some IMGs in private practice, but not all. I've met a path IMG who had amazing stats/record (USMLE in high 250-260s and 3 first author pubs, a record that's far better than mine), and she said the only reason she aspires to working in the US is b/c of the research potential here. That is, she wants a lab, and a high-profile one. As a matter of fact, she clearly stated that IMGs who make it to the top programs here are usually selected for certain reasons. For her, she said her income would be higher back home (factor in GDP, buying power, and the amount of $ she can save, I believe), and she will have no problem hiring a full time maid, nanny, and possibly even a driver. On the other hand, her income here won't even allow her to buy a nice abode in more urban cities back home, not to say she won't be able to afford having nannies, etc, here.

From what I see, she is very far from being clueless, and she certainly understands what type of salary is acceptable in the US. However, when you are looking for academic jobs, I think young trainees have very little bargain power in the academia. That is, she can only take whatever is advertised or offered in the dept. I wouldn't blame poor academic salary on some IMGs being clueless. Something else must be done. The academic salary is bizarrely low for path, even when compared to other specialties that traditionally have many IMGs (neurology, IM, FM, psychiatry etc). I think young pathologists need to take more active steps in demanding for better compensation, esp since pathology is a money-making dept in the hospital. I don't see why pathologists don't deserve more.

Absolutely. My statements were not meant to be all inclusive. Obviously, there are some outstanding FMGs who go on to great jobs and are successful. However, I have seen the situation far too often where an FMG accepts a private practice position and is grossly underpaid, at least from what is told to me. When I spoke to a few of them, they even admitted to me that they were clueless about the job market.
When going to the boards this past year, I met a couple of FMGs who did not even have a clue what the Lefkowich Anatomic Pathology Board Review question book was. Not a clue. Somewhere along the way, whether you read the books or not, you have to pick up some basics. One of the basics I would imagine is what are the standard books used in both training, board preparation, and for practice.

I agree. I believe academic pathologists need to be paid more. Most people that chose academics over private practice take a 50 percent pay cut with very little other benefits (sure maybe you get a little more time off of service, some more traveling etc., but in general nothing close to make up for the cost difference). I feel that in this environment of continued decreasing reimbursement and Obama's healthcare plan, that if academics can get their acts together, and put together better packages, they may be able to stop the hemorrhage of trainees into private practice.

 

[LADoc00]

I actually didnt realize the differential between Rads and Path is approaching 4:1 or MORE.

This is beyond the pale. The path salaries here are actually BELOW starting pay for Kaiser HMO Primary Care physicians.

I realize this isnt all about money but at these wages I would rather sleep in and find a new career personally, maybe "hobby" pathology on my time off.


The Kansas City group should load up on:

....because after dropping say 1500/mo on med student loans, another 1000/mo perhaps on undergrad


Net Monthly Pay for the good Dr. Cunnigham: 9000/mo
Federal withholding: 2600/mo
State withholding: lets say another 800/mo
Med student loans: 1500/mo
Undergrad loan debt: 1000/mo
--------------------------------------
4000 dollars post fixed debt costs and taxes. LMAOOOOOOOOOO!

enough to get a 200,000 home mortgage and make a payment on a honda civic and perhaps go out on a date 2-3/mo?


At that salary this would be your Pathologist pad in KC (actually listing, so I looked this up):

This would be the pad of the average Radiologist in KC:

interior Radiology house pic:

Found the link for the Kansas Path group:
http://www2.kumc.edu/pathology/faculty.html

Holy CRAP: Dr. Cunnigham is the DIRECTOR of Heme. At 108/year FT. I f'ing literally cant fathom that.

 

[v112233s]

I believe academic pathologists need to be paid more. Most people that chose academics over private practice take a 50 percent pay cut with very little other benefits (sure maybe you get a little more time off of service, some more traveling etc., but in general nothing close to make up for the cost difference). I feel that in this environment of continued decreasing reimbursement and Obama's healthcare plan, that if academics can get their acts together, and put together better packages, they may be able to stop the hemorrhage of trainees into private practice.

Agree 100%


However, how do you assume this can happen? I can't imagine senior residents going to the recruiting chair, and say, "err.... I am interested in your job offer, but can you pay me more?"


My unanswered question... How come pathologists (besides the chair) don't get the proper share of income? It seems that hospitals are making tons of money from the path dept. So what's going on?


I got the hunch that academic pathologists seem to suffer low self-esteem, likely due to a > 4x salary gap compared to their colleagues in other depts, why wouldn't this be enough incentive for the dept to fight for salary increase? Who sets these salary standards? Fine, I am very superficial. I was super interested in pathology, but it makes me feel terrible looking at the academic path attendings dress so poorly, drive such run-down cars, living in such terrible houses (according to the photos I saw in their office), and bringing really not so yummy left over food to work! Even worse, telling students that they can't afford much vacation (no vacation time and not much money), and that if they were to do it again, they would go for radiology. It makes me think, "do I want to be like this in front of my colleagues from other dept and old med school friends when I am in my 40s?"


Radiology had similar problem of oversupply a decade ago, but they were able to slash residency slot and keep the market healthy. What's the pathology dept doing about this?

Too much complaints for a weekend, I guess.

 

[v112233s]

I actually didnt realize the differential between Rads and Path is approaching 4:1 or MORE.



Net Monthly Pay for the good Dr. Cunnigham: 9000/mo
Federal withholding: 2600/mo
State withholding: lets say another 800/mo
Med student loans: 1500/mo
Undergrad loan debt: 1000/mo
--------------------------------------
4000 dollars post fixed debt costs and taxes. LMAOOOOOOOOOO!

enough to get a 200,000 home mortgage and make a payment on a honda civic and perhaps go out on a date 2-3/mo?

This is amazing. This is the exact type of lifestyle I see in my path attendings. Really old Corolla or Honda Civic (BTW, far worse than my car now), a house <250k, and PROBABLY no date, definitely not much vacation.

 

[v112233s]

One of the former fellows from MGH.

Former Chair of Stanford Path

Penn resident who couldnt find a job after finishing residency
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_orkXxp0bh...ASsM/JM29NxTwH_I/s1600/090524-homeless-10.jpg

Can't see the images.

Edit: strange, I could see the images now after I submitted a response to your post.

 

[LADoc00]

Bwhahaha I just spit my 50 dollar Chardonnay on my keyboard when I saw the Penn fellow's sign "Ninjas killed my family, need money for kung-fu lessons" LOL!! keep it coming!

 

[LADoc00]

Just in:

Octomom's little rugrats now earn more than University of Kansas Pathologists:

Each of Suleman's children will earn $250 per day according to the contracts (pending a judge's approval); over three years

bwhahahaha!

4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 4 years of residency, 1 year of fellowship, 5 years as junior faculty

Born yesterday....

WIN: baby.

OMG, this may soon be the funniest thread of all time.

 

[2121115]

I was super interested in pathology, but it makes me feel terrible looking at the academic path attendings dress so poorly, drive such run-down cars, living in such terrible houses (according to the photos I saw in their office), and bringing really not so yummy left over food to work! Even worse, telling students that they can't afford much vacation (no vacation time and not much money), and that if they were to do it again, they would go for radiology. It makes me think, "do I want to be like this in front of my colleagues from other dept and old med school friends when I am in my 40s?"

Posts like this make my day. Dude, the path attendings at my program dress like a 1980's movie and eat cheap bread and water for lunch. One of the them really drives a 1991 corolla. No lie. I had to seriously laugh out loud at this post because just the other day I was like "I can't believe our attendings roll like this" Unreal.

 

[v112233s]

Just in:

Octomom's little rugrats now earn more than University of Kansas Pathologists:


bwhahahaha!

4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 4 years of residency, 1 year of fellowship, 5 years as junior faculty

Born yesterday....


WIN: baby.

OMG, this may soon be the funniest thread of all time.

agree....

If you noticed, our Dr. Cunningham graduated from med school 20 years ago, is in his mid-40s (at least), and probably has to pay to send kids of college. This whole academic pathology thing is simply crazy!

And this is not just U of Kansas. I have suspicion that many academic institutions offer similar salary figures.

 

[LADoc00]

Just in as well:

 

[KeratinPearls]

Posts like this make my day. Dude, the path attendings at my program dress like a 1980's movie and eat cheap bread and water for lunch. One of the them really drives a 1991 corolla. No lie. I had to seriously laugh out loud at this post because just the other day I was like "I can't believe our attendings roll like this" Unreal.

Path attendings are a different breed of ppl. Most are nerds. One attending in my dept. barely showered and brushed his teeth. Here he is...

 

[raider]

I am sick, sick and sick of this nonsense.

The facts pointed out by ex-PCM are well known to everyone who has been in practice for some years. THE PATHOLOGY JOB MARKET NEEDS A MAJOR OVERHAUL: CUT THE RESIDENCY SPOTS IN HALF, CREATE A SHORTAGE SO THAT CANDIDATES CAN HAVE JOBS ON THEIR OWN TERMS INSTEAD OF CREATING A SURPLUS SO THAT THEY CAN BE EXPLOITED BY UNIVERSITIES AND PRIVATE PRACTICE .

Thanks ex-PCM for being the "VOICE OF REALITY" . KEEP UP THE EXCELLENT EFFORT.

 

[2121115]

In my area starting surgical pathologists (ast profs) are close to 200 after a typical 15-30k bonus and the professors are around 300.

Where is your area? That seems really high. PM me if you'd rather not post it.


I know of a program that recently was offering new Asst Prof's $85k, seriously with a straight face.

 

[2121115]

Net Monthly Pay for the good Dr. Cunnigham: 9000/mo
Federal withholding: 2600/mo
State withholding: lets say another 800/mo
Med student loans: 1500/mo
Undergrad loan debt: 1000/mo
--------------------------------------
4000 dollars post fixed debt costs and taxes. LMAOOOOOOOOOO!

enough to get a 200,000 home mortgage and make a payment on a honda civic and perhaps go out on a date 2-3/mo?

Holy CRAP: Dr. Cunnigham is the DIRECTOR of Heme. At 108/year FT. I f'ing literally cant fathom that.

Actually, those student loan payments come out post-tax. If I am ever forced to practice pathology for 108k I will quit and go back to pharmacy school or dental school.

 

[v112233s]

Actually, those student loan payments come out post-tax. If I am ever forced to practice pathology for 108k I will quit and go back to pharmacy school or dental school.

or.... jump boat to a different specialty fast


But you mentioned about the 85k offer. It seems that 85-108k range is pretty real for academic pathologists.


With all these posts, what is the actual possibility of increasing academic pay? How could that be done?

LADOC/exPCM, do you have any suggestions?

 

[v112233s]

I am sick, sick and sick of this nonsense.

The facts pointed out by ex-PCM are well known to everyone who has been in practice for some years. THE PATHOLOGY JOB MARKET NEEDS A MAJOR OVERHAUL: CUT THE RESIDENCY SPOTS IN HALF, CREATE A SHORTAGE

How to do so?

For the universities, can they increase the pay? They don't need to cut residency slots. They just need to increase the pay per faculty hire. The path depts are MAKING $, so I don't understand why this can't be done. Offering good pay to academic pathologist can also help relieve a flood of trainees into private practice.

 

[exPCM]

I am sick, sick and sick of this nonsense.

The facts pointed out by ex-PCM are well known to everyone who has been in practice for some years. THE PATHOLOGY JOB MARKET NEEDS A MAJOR OVERHAUL: CUT THE RESIDENCY SPOTS IN HALF, CREATE A SHORTAGE SO THAT CANDIDATES CAN HAVE JOBS ON THEIR OWN TERMS INSTEAD OF CREATING A SURPLUS SO THAT THEY CAN BE EXPLOITED BY UNIVERSITIES AND PRIVATE PRACTICE .

Thanks ex-PCM for being the "VOICE OF REALITY" . KEEP UP THE EXCELLENT EFFORT.

Raider,
Thanks for the encouragement. I have always found your posts here to be excellent.
Sometimes I feel like banging my head against the wall as I read the posts of those who I term "blind optimists" here. These are the type of people who think they will always get a good job no matter what. It seems like they think that only bad or mediocre pathologists can't get good jobs. What exactly is a mediocre pathologist? If there are so many mediocre pathologists out there then why are the residency programs not weeding them out? In what other field of medicine is the job market for residency trained and board certified physicians as poor as it is in pathology?

I saw the same blind optimism among my realtor/investor friends a couple of years ago. They were saying things like "real estate never goes down in value" and "you better buy now before you are priced out forever". Now some of these people are so far underwater on their mortgages that they are really upset.

Many of the blind optimists here will accuse us of having some nefarious motives for posting the sad facts. My prime motivation is to spur action. I am fortunate to have a pretty good paying position but I do not like to see med students and residents being told that everything is just rosy.

 

[exPCM]

or.... jump boat to a different specialty fast


But you mentioned about the 85k offer. It seems that 85-108k range is pretty real for academic pathologists.


With all these posts, what is the actual possibility of increasing academic pay? How could that be done?

LADOC/exPCM, do you have any suggestions?

You cannot just nullify the forces of supply and demand. If you can get someone to do a job for 100K then there is no need to pay them 200K.

The answer to the problem is exactly as stated by Raider. Residency positions should be slashed and some SERIOUS workforce planning initiated. IMHO we do not need any more speeches by Dr. Fred Silva or Powerpoints by Dr. James Crawford. Just talk to any physician recruiter at Merritt Hawkins or another major firm. The recruiters can verify that the pathology job market sucks. The problem as I see it is that many leaders in pathology are involved with residency programs and they want to preserve the pipeline of cheap resident labor (funded by CMS) rather than hiring PAs.
Look at this survey: http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/mha-2008-incentive-survey.pdf
Pathology is not even on the map as far as physician searches and recruiting.
Let us also not forget the ASCP survey (flawed as it may be) where 20% of residents reported starting salaries less than 100K: http://www.ascp.org/pdf/ResidentCouncilFellowshipJobMarketSurvey.aspx

 

[v112233s]

The answer to the problem is exactly as stated by Raider. Residency positions should be slashed and some SERIOUS workforce planning be intiated. IMHO we do not need any more speeches by Dr. Fred Silva or Powerpoints by Dr. James Crawford. Just talk to any physician recruiter at Merritt Hawkins or another major firm. The recruiters can verify that the pathology job market sucks. The problem as I see it is that many leaders in pathology are involved with residency programs and they want to preserve the pipeline of cheap resident labor (funded by CMS) rather than hiring PAs.

But who is going to listen to the residents/young faculty?

It seems that the leaders in pathology can simply ignore the reality/concerns of the young and move on with their lives/personal agenda.

What are some concrete steps? Maybe independent assessment of this profession? Also, how was radiology able to do it?

 

[v112233s]

some reference from the radiology colleagues....

http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/display/article/113619/1183762


"This year's results mark the continuation of a 10-year trend established by the 1997 Balanced Budget Act, said Dr. Allen D. Elster, chair of the division of radiologic sciences at Wake Forest University, which forced cutbacks of more than $5 billion in Medicare payments to the major teaching hospitals through 2002.

The cuts have so far not affected the overall quality of radiology education, despite imperiling some residency programs, according to a 2006 study published in the Journal of the American College of Radiology (J Am Coll Radiol 2006 Mar;3[3]:207-212).

Demand from would-be entrants continues to far exceed the supply of available resident slots, Elster said. Although matches were not found for 17 radiology slots on Match Day, all were quickly filled soon after the results were announced."

 

[Gyric]

Unfortunately, there are no quick solutions to the oversupply of pathologists likely to come our way (unless perhaps as a side effect of the health care bill changing GME in favor or primary care).

While I am in favor of reducing pathologist oversupply, in part because it will create better job opportunities and more professional respect, the larger reason is because it will reinvigorate our specialty, which I believe will result in better recruits and better residency programs (though less of them) and ultimately in better patient care.

The good news is that the service we provide could not be more vital to patient care and requires a skill set no mid-level provider is likely to acquire; therefore it is primarily a supply issue. With enough likeminded young pathologists we can change the course of our specialty, but it will require a bold and coordinated effort on multiple fronts and it will take time.

Simply put, we need to decrease the number of new pathologists and increase retirement.

To decrease the number of new pathologists we need to reduce GME funding for pathology slots, forcing only the most dedicated and largest programs to remain viable. The best way to do this is to pressure local and federal legislators. This can be done individually, especially if you have political connections, or through our specialty societies. To convince CAP (which has a PAC), we will need supportive data and an unbiased leadership (and perhaps an insider on the PAC committee).

A supportive approach would be to make it more expensive to hire a resident to do all your grossing than it is to hire a PA and so it would not hurt to increase the supply of PA’s, thereby putting downward pressure on their compensation. If we had support from ACGME inspectors we could also force better educational opportunities for residents onto programs, again decreasing their value as cheap labor.

We can push for a more rigorous board exam; for example, given the level of dissatisfaction with recent trainees (that has been published), we could push for an oral exam component, administered by private practice pathologists, which, among other skills, would ensure a minimum competency in communication and, if the pass rate were more like 50%, could quickly separate out those “mediocre and poor pathologists.”

Another route would be to take advantage of ABP’s poor reputation and form a separate certifying body that actually ensured competence (and thereby had some impact on a pathologist’s marketability). Given their tax return, there is obviously a lot of money to be made in this market; a little competition would be good I think.

We should push for a lengthening of pathology training back to 5 years, maybe even six, formally mandating a fellowship as part of the training years.

We need to also encourage turn-over of senior pathologists, who are well past retirement age. One way to do this is to push mandatory recertification for reimbursement, many would just give up I suspect.

Finally, we must be proactive about incorporating new technology that adds value and drives demand for our service even higher.

 

[LADoc00]

I have a better solution to the path job market. Having just played Call of Duty: World at War, we should have the entire CAP:
1.) join the Red Army circa Seelow Heights, Germany 1945
2.) Push ontowards Berlin, 90% of us die
3.) job market now open
4.) ???
5.) Profit

 

[Dermbound00]

You all bring up good ways to better the job market. However, the problem is that physicians and particularly pathologists just take it. They have let the government come in, lawyers come in, businessmen come in, and dictate to us what are services are worth, how much we should be paid, the structure of our practice, and basically just crap all over us. We just take it! Where are our leaders who are suppose to be protecting our field? They are busy looking for ways to test us even more, and line their pockets. All of this testing, recertification, PAP proficiency testing is utter garbage, but I agree a nice way to make money and put up the facade that this produces better quality. In general, people don't give a crap unless it affects their pockets. So if I am making 300K a year, why should I care that a significant percentage of the workforce is making 140K and below (like poor Dr. Cunningham who has to live in Kansas, put his name on the line every single day, probably has significant student loan debt, and is making absolutely nothing)? Everything is great as far as I am concerned.

 

[paleman]

there is something fishy going on here - just does not add up.
tax officials should be smelling a rat in kansas pathology associates IMHO

 

[v112233s]

My questions are:

1) Who are the personnel involved in setting these low academic salary numbers?

2) About supply and demand.... Some academic centers are offering ~100k to their job candidates right now, and these places usually recruit from those who graduate from top training programs with research potential, not the small programs w/little education value. Therefore, I am not sure how eliminating the small programs would affect the 100k offered by academic centers. They are not the same candidate pool.

I assume the only way this would work is if you factor the private practice market in. That is, the academic centers have to make better offers to keep a good candidate, is this right? However, I am not sure if this would happen. It seems that some academic centers are having a really hard time finding good candidates already now (presumably b/c of low pay), but I don't see them raising the salary to attract candidates. They would rather wait around so that they can get someone cheap? I thought academic dept can negotiate with the hospital and university for the type of offer they give. Why can't path do this?


Offering a salary in the 85-106k range is really an insult to your field.

 

[v112233s]

This can be done individually, especially if you have political connections, or through our specialty societies.

Anyone to write to?

convince CAP (which has a PAC), we will need supportive data and an unbiased leadership (and perhaps an insider on the PAC committee).

what type of data? How to convince CAP? Where do you find unbiased leadership?

we had support from ACGME inspectors we could also force better educational opportunities for residents onto programs, again decreasing their value as cheap labor.

How to get support from ACGME?

can push for a more rigorous board exam

no problem. But how?

....take advantage of ABP's poor reputation and form a separate certifying body that actually ensured competence

This doesn't seem easy. Who would be interested in doing this?

should push for a lengthening of pathology training back to 5 years

not sure if I agree. 5 yr training is too long. IM training is jut 3 years!

mandatory recertification for reimbursement, many would just give up I suspect.

all for it, but who is going to make this change?

we must be proactive about incorporating new technology that adds value and drives demand for our service even higher

It seems that other fields are already preying on or at least eyeballing the new technology that should belong to pathology (ie molecular dx, etc).

 

[LADoc00]

there is something fishy going on here - just does not add up.
tax officials should be smelling a rat in kansas pathology associates IMHO

Eh? Like what? They have significant other sources of income not being reported?

The IRS is fairly strict on this so I would tend to doubt a University program, especially a state-run one would engage in significant fraud.

I would have guessed that some of these academic path people might have RO1 grant income, perhaps on the order of 80-90K additional BUT the hours listed are FT, 40hrs/week and a cursory glance through google shows these individuals are not grant holders.

The big question I have is, the guy is an associate professor, probably mid to late 40s, perhaps with 15+ years of experience and heads a whole division. What was his initial salary when hired out of training? $7.15/hr?? LOL.

Actually this is a fairly big mystery. We need a SDN poster at the UKansas to give us the scoop!!

 

[v112233s]

The big question I have is, the guy is an associate professor, probably mid to late 40s, perhaps with 15+ years of experience and heads a whole division. What was his initial salary when hired out of training? $7.15/hr?? LOL.

Actually this is a fairly big mystery. We need a SDN poster at the UKansas to give us the scoop!!

But I don't think this is U of kansas specific. It looks like the Stony Brook folks are doing just equally well, that is, you also see 106k there.

 

[exPCM]

Eh? Like what? They have significant other sources of income not being reported?

The IRS is fairly strict on this so I would tend to doubt a University program, especially a state-run one would engage in significant fraud.

I would have guessed that some of these academic path people might have RO1 grant income, perhaps on the order of 80-90K additional BUT the hours listed are FT, 40hrs/week and a cursory glance through google shows these individuals are not grant holders.

The big question I have is, the guy is an associate professor, probably mid to late 40s, perhaps with 15+ years of experience and heads a whole division. What was his initial salary when hired out of training? $7.15/hr?? LOL.

Actually this is a fairly big mystery. We need a SDN poster at the UKansas to give us the scoop!!

I did just find one bit of information when I looked him up at the ABMS website. He is listed as double boarded in hemepath and CP. No AP boards listed.
The other KS five "highest paid" members are listed as:
AP + cytogenetics
AP/CP + heme
AP
AP/CP + cytopath.

For the Stony Brook "highest paid" five I found the following board cert status:
AP/CP
AP/CP
AP/CP
AP/CP
AP/CP + heme

P.S. I am incredulous that we have posters who cannot accept the numbers and therefore imply that they must be fraudulent. Remember the 2008 ASCP survey (again flawed as it may be) where 20% of residents reported starting salaries less than 100K.

 

[2121115]

there is something fishy going on here - just does not add up.
tax officials should be smelling a rat in kansas pathology associates IMHO

I hope very much that this is the case. I hope there is some funky tax sheltering going on there.

On a side note, my friend is finishing internal medicine residency with no fellowship and is going to a partnership-tract practice in a nice city that guarantees him 190K the first year and pays off his med school loans. Try finding that in pathology.

 

[paleman]

Eh? Like what? They have significant other sources of income not being reported?

The IRS is fairly strict on this so I would tend to doubt a University program, especially a state-run one would engage in significant fraud.

yeah i agree. i am just clutching at straws here. i would prefer to hear this place is less-than-legit rather than that associate professors are getting hosed this badly.

 

[paleman]

I
On a side note, my friend is finishing internal medicine residency with no fellowship and is going to a partnership-tract practice in a nice city that guarantees him 190K the first year and pays off his med school loans. Try finding that in pathology.

are you kidding me? not sure about the loans deal but in my experience deals similar to that and better are pretty COMMON in pathology

 

[Parts Unknown]

http://www2.kumc.edu/pathology/faculty.html

Look carefully at this screen capture from the Form 990 (These form 990s are Public Records - I found them posted on the internet after hearing about them from a vascular surgeon at the hospital where I worked earlier this year) to see the salaries of the five highest paid pathologists other than the directors in the public record form 990.
We see salaries down to 106k for the "highest paid".

Interesting, but I note that the total number of other employees paid over $50,000 is "2." Are we to believe that aside from the directors, KUMC employs seven pathologists? (Click here for the answer.)

Furthermore, the total revenue (line 12) is $3,595,235, which is a pretty paltry sum for a university pathology department. Moreover, the total compensation paid by the organization (line 25a) is $778,863; again, a pretty paltry amount of money.

So, if you want anyone to swallow this, you're going to have to explain 1.) how UPA is affiliated with the KUMC Department of Pathology, and 2.) if the compensation figures listed represent the entire annual earnings for each person listed.

 

[paleman]

So, if you want anyone to swallow this, you're going to have to explain 1.) how UPA is affiliated with the KUMC Department of Pathology, and 2.) if the compensation figures listed represent the entire annual earnings for each person listed.

someone please tell us there is more gold out there on rainbow blvd that dr cunningham and dr da zhang are cleverly leaving off this tax form.

 

[exPCM]

Interesting, but I note that the total number of other employees paid over $50,000 is "2." Are we to believe that aside from the directors, KUMC employs seven pathologists? (Click here for the answer.)

Furthermore, the total revenue (line 12) is $3,595,235, which is a pretty paltry sum for a university pathology department. Moreover, the total compensation paid by the organization (line 25a) is $778,863; again, a pretty paltry amount of money.

So, if you want anyone to swallow this, you're going to have to explain 1.) how UPA is affiliated with the KUMC Department of Pathology, and 2.) if the compensation figures listed represent the entire annual earnings for each person listed.

It is posters like this who make me want to quit this board. You really need to learn how to read a financial statement. The section that lists only 2 other employees over 50K does not include the directors/officers.

Now get out your calculator and you will see the 778,563 is the total salaries for the three officers (Pres - Dr. Thomas, VP - Dr. Tilzer, Secretary - Dr. Fang)

The ~3.6 million clearly is the professional and management fees as well as "miscellaneous" and interest. (Do you understand CPT coding - technical and professional fees? Do you understand Medicare Part A fees for lab management?)

I am done cutting and pasting on this thread. It is sad to me that we have some medical students and residents who are not well versed in the business side of medicine.

 

[2121115]

are you kidding me? not sure about the loans deal but in my experience deals similar to that and better are pretty COMMON in pathology

Common? Isn't that what this thread is all about? It seems like a pretty sweet deal compared to the aforementioned Dr. Cunningham, director of hemepath at the University of Kansas.

If deals like that are indeed common then I am relaxing a little bit here.

 

[paleman]

Common? Isn't that what this thread is all about? It seems like a pretty sweet deal compared to the aforementioned Dr. Cunningham, director of hemepath at the University of Kansas.

If deals like that are indeed common then I am relaxing a little bit here.

look, if 190 and partnership in pp is what will relax you, relax! just my experience but for me Cunningham is a real abberation. frankly, i am shocked. i know there is a small % starting out on around 100, but they are invariably in academics, usually held by the short and curleys based on visa restrictions, and/or are somehow brainwashed into thinking they should work for nothing based on the medical ctr's prestige etc.

if cunningham is just some normal associate professor and he is pulling in this salary, things are much worse in academics than what i have personally seen.

 

[Parts Unknown]

The section that lists only 2 other employees over 50K does not include the directors/officers.

Which is precisely why my question was this: "Are we to believe that aside from the directors, KUMC employs seven pathologists?"

Now get out your calculator and you will see the 778,563 is the total salaries for the three officers (Pres - Dr. Thomas, VP - Dr. Tilzer, Secretary - Dr. Fang)

The ~3.6 million clearly is the professional and management fees (do you understand CPT coding - technical and professional fees? Do you understand Medicare Part A fees for lab management?)

So we have the three officers and $3.6 million cleared up. How about the rest of the Department?

I am done cutting and pasting on this thread. It is sad to me that we have some medical students and residents who are not well versed in the business side of medicine.

You post some woefully incomplete information and proceed to get pretty pissy when someone asks a few questions. If you know what is going on, how about taking some time to explain it to those of us who are not blessed with your vast business expertise?