Gunman kills 3 including therapist and psychologist

[DynamicDidactic]

Not sure if anyone else has seen this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/shots-fired-veterans-home-northern-california-n85

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[MAClinician]

Saw this. Gunman had been kicked out of the program by the director according to news reports. But there seems to be conflicting info. Very sad.

 

[foreverbull]

It's terribly sad and I'm sure more details will emerge. I'm concerned that folks will more strongly associate mental illness with violence and stigma will increase. Per some research I've been reviewing for a class I teach, the majority of folks already do believe that mental illness leads to violence even though most people with mental illness do not engage in a violent act (there is some research showing an increase overall, but a few disorders like substance use disorder can skew the data upward).

I wish the media would portray these issues more sensitively and accurately in terms of mental health and the actual statistics and pull in experts from our field when the words "mental illness" start getting thrown around.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Not sure if anyone else has seen this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/shots-fired-veterans-home-northern-california-n85

Remember the neuropsychologist killed at the El Paso VA. It's very tragic and we don't have a lot of details at this point. But, working as a therapist in VA, one thing that disturbs me is the institution's (and society's) tendency to preach all day and all night to the veterans how victimized they are by society, how powerless they are, and--by implication--how seriously aggrieved they should justifiably feel. Think about how this message 'lands' in the minds of people who may--by virtue of their particular diathesis--be vulnerable to psychological processes of extreme suspicion (even paranoia), lack of trust (associated with PTSD), problems with intimacy, isolation, feeling unsafe, and who--on a daily basis--experience very real frustrations and roadblocks in terms of getting their needs met. When I was in training for CPT, I had a veteran offer to me the very acronym I use to remember the five major 'stuck point' areas characteristic of PTSD: the acronym is 'S.P.I.T.E.' or, Safety, Power/control, Intimacy, Trust, and Esteem (self- and other-).

I work with veterans every day in the post-deployment clinic whose main presenting issue (the one that brings them into clinic) is anger. We are all familiar with the states of mind and cognitive distortions characteristic of anger. It is extremely common for these folks to be abusing drugs/alcohol as well, which only exacerbates the dysfunctional mental processes leading to anger and hostile actions towards others which, obviously, creates for them a reality of a 'hostile' world (in reaction to their hostility). At a systemic and societal level, we need to stop feeding the beast and we need to support an approach that helps individual veterans find their individual truths (some of which may involve actual victimization and unfair treatment) and how to proceed with dignity and efficacy in their efforts to live meaningful lives, even lives filled with appropriate levels of responsibility, suffering, and struggle...and, above all, meaningful lives free of preoccupation with victim status.

 

[erg923]

Remember the neuropsychologist killed at the El Paso VA. It's very tragic and we don't have a lot of details at this point. But, working as a therapist in VA, one thing that disturbs me is the institution's (and society's) tendency to preach all day and all night to the veterans how victimized they are by society, how powerless they are, and--by implication--how seriously aggrieved they should justifiably feel. Think about how this message 'lands' in the minds of people who may--by virtue of their particular diathesis--be vulnerable to psychological processes of extreme suspicion (even paranoia), lack of trust (associated with PTSD), problems with intimacy, isolation, feeling unsafe, and who--on a daily basis--experience very real frustrations and roadblocks in terms of getting their needs met. When I was in training for CPT, I had a veteran offer to me the very acronym I use to remember the five major 'stuck point' areas characteristic of PTSD: the acronym is 'S.P.I.T.E.' or, Safety, Power/control, Intimacy, Trust, and Esteem (self- and other-).

I work with veterans every day in the post-deployment clinic whose main presenting issue (the one that brings them into clinic) is anger. We are all familiar with the states of mind and cognitive distortions characteristic of anger. It is extremely common for these folks to be abusing drugs/alcohol as well, which only exacerbates the dysfunctional mental processes leading to anger and hostile actions towards others which, obviously, creates for them a reality of a 'hostile' world (in reaction to their hostility). At a systemic and societal level, we need to stop feeding the beast and we need to support an approach that helps individual veterans find their individual truths (some of which may involve actual victimization and unfair treatment) and how to proceed with dignity and efficacy in their efforts to live meaningful lives, even lives filled with appropriate levels of responsibility, suffering, and struggle...and, above all, meaningful lives free of preoccupation with victim status.

I was always somewhat afraid of this type of thing when working at the VA. In about 4 years, police had to be called probably a dozen times to my clinic because of threats of violence toward the providers.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I was always somewhat afraid of this type of thing when working at the VA. In about 4 years, police had to be called probably a dozen times to my clinic because of threats of violence toward the providers.

One of the sickest double-binds that (otherwise) well-trained and well-intentioned psychologists face is the absolute moratorium on the truth that is implicitly enforced within the organization. I mean the truth about many veteran's problems being more due to personality disorders and/or substance abuse rather than PTSD, per se. I mean the truth that not every veteran enters the consulting room ready to be plugged into a scripted, time-limited protocol and 'cured' in 12 sessions. I mean the truth that we receive excellent 'rollout' training in Motivational Interviewing (MI) that preaches, among other things, not to give in to the temptation of 'the righting reflex' (the natural tendency to assume responsibility for 'fixing' the patient, his pathology, or his life) while, simultaneously, being preached at by the VA organization about how important it is that we push the medical model and rapid treatment and recovery to every patient who enters therapy and how it, literally, is our job to 'fix' them in a limited time frame. With many veterans, the most important therapeutic tool or asset I have is my track record with them of my BEHAVIOR actually matching my WORDS. There is no greater leverage-point in therapy with veterans that can be utilized to foster their recovery than their observation of your behavior, over time, matching your words with them. None. And, to me, this is to be preserved at all costs. Without it, you don't have engagement/trust and, without engagement/trust, you don't have a prayer of implementing ANY intervention, no matter the literature supporting it.

 

[PsyDr]

It's terribly sad and I'm sure more details will emerge. I'm concerned that folks will more strongly associate mental illness with violence and stigma will increase. Per some research I've been reviewing for a class I teach, the majority of folks already do believe that mental illness leads to violence even though most people with mental illness do not engage in a violent act (there is some research showing an increase overall, but a few disorders like substance use disorder can skew the data upward).

I wish the media would portray these issues more sensitively and accurately in terms of mental health and the actual statistics and pull in experts from our field when the words "mental illness" start getting thrown around.

For violence, alcohol abuse and marijuana abuse have odds ratios which are multiples of/far exceed that of mental illness.


@Fan_of_Meehl : Timothy Fjordbank was a prescribing psychologist. There is a scholarship in his honor now. Don’t forget that another medical/prescribing psychologist Ed Caraveo was murdered in the nadall hasan shooting.

 

[futureapppsy2]

For violence, alcohol abuse and marijuana abuse have odds ratios which are multiples of/far exceed that of mental illness.


@Fan_of_Meehl : Timothy fjordbank was a prescribing psychologist. There is a scholarship in his honor now. Don’t forget that another medical/prescribing psychologist ed Caraveo was murdered in the nadall hasan shooting.

The only mental illness (besides antisocial PD and conduct disorder, which, IMO, don't count because they have lawbreaking and callous disregard in their criteria) that has been linked to increased violence perpetration is substance use disorder, and it's debatable whether or not that's mental illness per se. People believe strongly that mental illness causes violence when the data consistently show that people with mental illness are not more likely to commit violence and that most people who commit violence are not mentally ill. We've studied this again and again and again and consistently found the same thing, but people just ignore it, because scapegoating marginalized populations is convenient.

One thing I've heard from multiple psychologists who have worked in VAs is that a subset of veterans use the negative perception of VAs in general public to basically bully providers into giving them whatever they want, even if its not appropriate or necessary. I also think, like others have said, there's a lot of awful, inaccurate social messaging around trauma and PTSD that portrays it as this thing we don't understand and can't treat when it is in fact one of the most treatable disorders out there. I worked with a big-name researchers who studied PTSD tx in people with comorbid SMI (MDD, bipolar, or schizophrenia), and he said one of the refreshing things about PTSD for both clinicians and patients is that in most cases, we can actually cure it, not just manage it.

 

[PsyDr]

The only mental illness (besides antisocial PD and conduct disorder, which, IMO, don't count because they have lawbreaking and callous disregard in their criteria) that has been linked to increased violence perpetration is substance use disorder, and it's debatable whether or not that's mental illness per se. People believe strongly that mental illness causes violence when the data consistently show that people with mental illness are not more likely to commit violence and that most people who commit violence are not mentally ill. We've studied this again and again and again and consistently found the same thing, but people just ignore it, because scapegoating marginalized populations is convenient.

One thing I've heard from multiple psychologists who have worked in VAs is that a subset of veterans use the negative perception of VAs in general public to basically bully providers into giving them whatever they want, even if its not appropriate or necessary. I also think, like others have said, there's a lot of awful, inaccurate social messaging around trauma and PTSD that portrays it as this thing we don't understand and can't treat when it is in fact one of the most treatable disorders out there. I worked with a big-name researchers who studied PTSD tx in people with comorbid SMI (MDD, bipolar, or schizophrenia), and he said one of the refreshing things about PTSD for both clinicians and patients is that in most cases, we can actually cure it, not just manage it.

Delusional disorder is also associated with increased risk of violence, with a subset being the highest risk.

 

[erg923]

Adrian Raine | Department of Criminology

 

[futureapppsy2]

Delusional disorder is also associated with increased risk of violence, with a subset being the highest risk.

Citation? I’ve seen some stuff linking command hallucinations and extreme persecutory delusions to violence (which, as you said, is limited subset) but not delusional disorder as a whole.

 

[PsyDr]

Citation? I’ve seen some stuff like command hallucinations and extreme persecutory delusions to violence (which, as you said, is limited subset) but not delusional disorder as a whole.

Sure, remind me Monday?

 

[deleted106747]

One of the sickest double-binds that (otherwise) well-trained and well-intentioned psychologists face is the absolute moratorium on the truth that is implicitly enforced within the organization. I mean the truth about many veteran's problems being more due to personality disorders and/or substance abuse rather than PTSD, per se. I mean the truth that not every veteran enters the consulting room ready to be plugged into a scripted, time-limited protocol and 'cured' in 12 sessions. I mean the truth that we receive excellent 'rollout' training in Motivational Interviewing (MI) that preaches, among other things, not to give in to the temptation of 'the righting reflex' (the natural tendency to assume responsibility for 'fixing' the patient, his pathology, or his life) while, simultaneously, being preached at by the VA organization about how important it is that we push the medical model and rapid treatment and recovery to every patient who enters therapy and how it, literally, is our job to 'fix' them in a limited time frame. With many veterans, the most important therapeutic tool or asset I have is my track record with them of my BEHAVIOR actually matching my WORDS. There is no greater leverage-point in therapy with veterans that can be utilized to foster their recovery than their observation of your behavior, over time, matching your words with them. None. And, to me, this is to be preserved at all costs. Without it, you don't have engagement/trust and, without engagement/trust, you don't have a prayer of implementing ANY intervention, no matter the literature supporting it.

I think the VA varies widely in this regard - "when you've seen one VA you've seen one VA." In mine, Veterans do not have to fit into a scripted, time-limited protocol, nor are we expected to "fix" them medical model style. I do take issue with the three phone calls thing for no shows which is national.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Citation? I’ve seen some stuff linking command hallucinations and extreme persecutory delusions to violence (which, as you said, is limited subset) but not delusional disorder as a whole.

I'll have to find the citation as well but I did look up schizophrenia and violence. Most of the effect is due to substance use. Once you control for substance use almost all the violent outcomes are no more likely. However, there is still a small increase in homicide. I'll look for the citation when I get a chance.

 

[cara susanna]

One thing I've heard from multiple psychologists who have worked in VAs is that a subset of veterans use the negative perception of VAs in general public to basically bully providers into giving them whatever they want, even if its not appropriate or necessary.

That is very well put. I predicted that people would be saying after this "why was he discharged?" and, yes, they are already asking. Never mind that apparently he was there for two years and probably was discharged because he wasn't making progress or maybe was even being noncompliant or threatening staff.

And now I keep seeing comments about the VA not doing a good enough job treating veterans with PTSD. What do you expect us to do with patients that won't actually engage in treatment? Ugh. I feel like the public thinks we're miracle workers.

Oh, and yes, the no show calls drive me bananas.

 

[MAClinician]

That is very well put. I predicted that people would be saying after this "why was he discharged?" and, yes, they are already asking. Never mind that apparently he was there for two years and probably was discharged because he wasn't making progress or maybe was even being noncompliant or threatening staff.

And now I keep seeing comments about the VA not doing a good enough job treating veterans with PTSD. What do you expect us to do with patients that won't actually engage in treatment? Ugh. I feel like the public thinks we're miracle workers.

Oh, and yes, the no show calls drive me bananas.

CNN reported he had been discharged for threatening one of the women killed. But the source is quoted anonymously and doesn't say what type of threat. So take it with a grain of salt for now. Especially since a previous report had one of the psychologists ages as 29 but graduated from her PsyD program in 2003.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

That is very well put. I predicted that people would be saying after this "why was he discharged?" and, yes, they are already asking. Never mind that apparently he was there for two years and probably was discharged because he wasn't making progress or maybe was even being noncompliant or threatening staff.

And now I keep seeing comments about the VA not doing a good enough job treating veterans with PTSD. What do you expect us to do with patients that won't actually engage in treatment? Ugh. I feel like the public thinks we're miracle workers.

Oh, and yes, the no show calls drive me bananas.

I have said that the (real) VA logo out in front of the facility should read, "Blame Providers First." It seems to be the value system of the higher-ups (if you watch their actual behavior, if not their words).

 

[Kadhir]

But, working as a therapist in VA, one thing that disturbs me is the institution's (and society's) tendency to preach all day and all night to the veterans how victimized they are by society, how powerless they are, and--by implication--how seriously aggrieved they should justifiably feel.

I mean the truth about many veteran's problems being more due to personality disorders and/or substance abuse rather than PTSD, per se. I mean the truth that not every veteran enters the consulting room ready to be plugged into a scripted, time-limited protocol and 'cured' in 12 sessions.

Incredibly validating and a nice summary of my major frustrations working with this population in the VA. I see so many individuals treating these folks as, essentially, a different species. But then, they don't really seem to understand how personality or personality disorders work.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Incredibly validating and a nice summary of my major frustrations working with this population in the VA. I see so many individuals treating these folks as, essentially, a different species. But then, they don't really seem to understand how personality or personality disorders work.

I've also just implicitly assumed that anyone with any ounce of sophistication understood that holding people accountable for their behavior (and expecting that they will generally behave in a civil--or, at least, non-violent manner) is actually a form of respect. To me, sending an adult the message, "It's okay, you're entitled to act in any way you want, you just can't help yourself, we (society) did this to you" is a *profoundly* disrespectful and invalidating message to send to a person. The proper approach is to befriend and nurture (and encourage) the adaptive sliver of the person's personality and put the monster within them on an extinction schedule.

 

[cara susanna]

So many people in the VA talk about how they love working there because it allows them to serve our veterans. I dunno, I just see them as people. I respect them, but I don't worship them or anything. I always feel different in that way.

There's a lot of exceptionalism, too. A lot of the problems with the VA are the same or worse in other healthcare systems, but in the VA they're considered unacceptable.

 

[deleted106747]

I've also just implicitly assumed that anyone with any ounce of sophistication understood that holding people accountable for their behavior (and expecting that they will generally behave in a civil--or, at least, non-violent manner) is actually a form of respect. To me, sending an adult the message, "It's okay, you're entitled to act in any way you want, you just can't help yourself, we (society) did this to you" is a *profoundly* disrespectful and invalidating message to send to a person. The proper approach is to befriend and nurture (and encourage) the adaptive sliver of the person's personality and put the monster within them on an extinction schedule.

Or, you could call him a hero with demons, or that he isn't to blame because of war, as I saw in a recent article.
This man shot three women, one of them seven months pregnant, and killed them. What does he have to do to be held accountable for his actions??

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Or, you could call him a hero with demons, or that he isn't to blame because of war, as I saw in a recent article.
This man shot three women, one of them seven months pregnant, and killed them. What does he have to do to be held accountable for his actions??

It's still very early in the investigation and I think it's fair to say that none of us 'know why' what happened occurred--although I think it's fair to consider it a tragedy (all the way around). I don't think we'll ever get to the point of eliminating tragedies from life. What concerns me the most is the apparent zeal and ardor with which people are posting online blaming the mental health professionals (and/or their program) for 'kicking him out' or 'not fixing him' or 'not helping him.' Similar comments are being made regarding the recent school shooting perpetrator with people commenting that the professionals involved should have 'done something' to prevent what happened. As we all know, it ain't that simple. Not only is it incredibly difficult to accurately predict very low-frequency events, your predictions will always be extremely asymmetrical (i.e., over-predicting occurrence of low-probability events). Moreover, what--exactly--should have been done earlier? Hospitalization doesn't cure homicidal risk or even address the conditions giving rise to it (certain situations excepted including things like acute mania, of course). I think these sorts of tragedies represent a sort of end point of a 'final common pathway' of causes and the best we can do is try to understand the relevant contributors and address them as best we can. I see much of the public outcry as representing a sort of immature, low-resolution, or fantastically ignorant view of the power of mental health professionals to prevent tragedies from ever occurring in high-risk populations. What if thoracic surgeons were held to the same sort of standards? That high-risk cardiac patient? If you let him die on the table, we want your head/license. You should have stopped the tragedy...he died...therefore you are to blame. Makes the prospect of trying to step in and help high-risk populations all the more daunting. If these societal trends to blame mental health professionals (or systems) for every single tragedy that befalls the population continue, I see a mass exodus from the front lines which won't exactly help. We can only be held accountable for providing standard of care / standard of practice within our field and to strive to reconcile competing duties within a reasonable ethical framework. We're neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

 

[deleted106747]

It's still very early in the investigation and I think it's fair to say that none of us 'know why' what happened occurred--although I think it's fair to consider it a tragedy (all the way around). I don't think we'll ever get to the point of eliminating tragedies from life. What concerns me the most is the apparent zeal and ardor with which people are posting online blaming the mental health professionals (and/or their program) for 'kicking him out' or 'not fixing him' or 'not helping him.' Similar comments are being made regarding the recent school shooting perpetrator with people commenting that the professionals involved should have 'done something' to prevent what happened. As we all know, it ain't that simple. Not only is it incredibly difficult to accurately predict very low-frequency events, your predictions will always be extremely asymmetrical (i.e., over-predicting occurrence of low-probability events). Moreover, what--exactly--should have been done earlier? Hospitalization doesn't cure homicidal risk or even address the conditions giving rise to it (certain situations excepted including things like acute mania, of course). I think these sorts of tragedies represent a sort of end point of a 'final common pathway' of causes and the best we can do is try to understand the relevant contributors and address them as best we can. I see much of the public outcry as representing a sort of immature, low-resolution, or fantastically ignorant view of the power of mental health professionals to prevent tragedies from ever occurring in high-risk populations. What if thoracic surgeons were held to the same sort of standards? That high-risk cardiac patient? If you let him die on the table, we want your head/license. You should have stopped the tragedy...he died...therefore you are to blame. Makes the prospect of trying to step in and help high-risk populations all the more daunting. If these societal trends to blame mental health professionals (or systems) for every single tragedy that befalls the population continue, I see a mass exodus from the front lines which won't exactly help. We can only be held accountable for providing standard of care / standard of practice within our field and to strive to reconcile competing duties within a reasonable ethical framework. We're neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

I have seen constant critiques based on no information regarding him being kicked out for treatment. It is infuriating - stepping awfully close to victim blaming if not already there.
Amen to everything you said.

 

[foreverbull]

I agree that I'm tired of people blaming mental health practitioners for not preventing things that we either weren't involved with or couldn't have prevented due to confidentiality and/or following our ethics code appropriately. The ignorance of the public about the power we do and don't have to "save" people and/or "fix" them astounds me. This is why media representation is so important for our field...they need to bring in spcyhologists to discuss the challenges with these issues rather than let lawmakers and people who have no understanding just talk about it off the cuff and try to pass regulations with zero psychologist input.

In CA, because of a rumored suicide and grieving family that felt the need to "do something" (can't confirm for sure if this was what led to AB 89, but that was the cause per word of mouth) every single psychologist now has to get extra suicide training CEs when they renew licensure. As if we aren't the best-trained mental health professionals in this area already and as if that will stop suicide from happening at all when we force one (out of many types of mental health professionals) to get more training in something they've been trained in. This doesn't address any systemic issues of lack of access to care, lack of interest in therapy by some suicidal folks, etc., but at least we can hold psychologists even more accountable for human lives, right? Unfortunately, the CA Board of Psychology was completely on board with placing more responsibility on psychologists, despite being intimately familiar with the pitfalls of things like this.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I agree that I'm tired of people blaming mental health practitioners for not preventing things that we either weren't involved with or couldn't have prevented due to confidentiality and/or following our ethics code appropriately. The ignorance of the public about the power we do and don't have to "save" people and/or "fix" them astounds me. This is why media representation is so important for our field...they need to bring in spcyhologists to discuss the challenges with these issues rather than let lawmakers and people who have no understanding just talk about it off the cuff and try to pass regulations with zero psychologist input.

In CA, because of a rumored suicide and grieving family that felt the need to "do something" (can't confirm for sure if this was what lead to AB 89, but that was the cause per word of mouth) every single psychologist now has to get extra suicide training CEs when they renew licensure. As if we aren't the best-trained mental health professionals in this area already and as if that will stop suicide from happening at all when we force one (out of many types of mental health professionals) to get more training in something they've been trained in. This doesn't address any systemic issues of lack of access to care, lack of interest in therapy by some suicidal folks, etc., but at least we can hold psychologists even more accountable for human lives, right?

I'm already anticipating the sweeping 'reforms' that the VA system is going to be implementing in order to 'do something' in response to this tragedy. I predict MORE (and longer) forms, templates, mandated training, 'town halls,' a new formalized 'violence risk assessment,' a 'homicide/violence safety plan,' mandatory reporting of violent dreams, fantasies, thoughts to a 'violence prevention committee' (staffed, of course, by non-practicing expertologists), a mandated objective in everyone's Mental Health Suite plan covering homicide/violence risk, 'marches' to 'raise awareness' about violence risk, t-shirts with catchy slogans, a new position of 'violence reduction champion' to oversee all of this and...sigh...the list goes on and on. Of course, I'm not against encouraging providers to focus on relevant, reasonable, context (and case-) specific interventions that make sense. I have, in essence, created violence prevention plans with many of my clients in the form of, when X happens, what are your typical thoughts, emotions, and behavioral tendencies (responses) and how can we help you alter the trajectory of these events in order to get your needs met in an effective and safe manner? What I AM against is the slathering on of additional requirements (irrespective of the specific case) in order to enable administrators/politicians to publicly announce all the wonderful things they're 'doing' to 'prevent this type of horrific event from ever occurring again' (rolls eyes) and to 'win the war against pain and suffering' back home.

 

[cara susanna]

I saw comments complaining that the psychologist was too young for her position. Seriously?

I get that people love to bash the VA, but three staff members just died. I had to stop reading comments because it was making me feel sick.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Why not give psychologists guns and hold us even more accountable? /sarcasm

There needs to be large-scale changes in our MH and social systems....and society....and access to guns. What will happen instead....blame the providers and "the crazy people", even though both groups deserve better.

 

[PsychPhDone]

The comments are so horrific. So much victim blaming. l am trying so hard not to read them and failing. People are so cruel. I just wanted to share that I appreciate what's been said here - I feel less alone now.

 

[WisNeuro]

Not sure what people were expecting reading the comments section of any article that is even remotely political in nature. All you're going to get is the worst that humanity has to offer. Has anyone started claiming it was a "black flag" incident yet?

 

[erg923]

Not sure what people were expecting reading the comments section of any article that is even remotely political in nature. All you're going to get is the worst that humanity has to offer. Has anyone started claiming it was a "black flag" incident yet?

Are you suggesting Henry Rollins was behind all this?

 

[WisNeuro]

Oops, I meant "false flag." I need to go study up on my wackjob conspiracy theories and get myself over to Infowars for a refresher and to lose a few dozen IQ points.

 

[erg923]

Oops, I meant "false flag."

I dont know what that is.

 

[WisNeuro]

I dont know what that is.

Look up things like Sandy Hook and other tragedies and false flag if you really want to go down a rabbit hole of stupid/unhinged.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

The comments are so horrific. So much victim blaming. l am trying so hard not to read them and failing. People are so cruel. I just wanted to share that I appreciate what's been said here - I feel less alone now.

I just find it a fascinating spectacle of unhinged cognition that, somehow, the public consciousness is attempting to characterize the veteran as exemplifying the archetypes of 'the hero,' 'the victim,' and 'the perpetrator' all at the same time based on essentially zero actual facts being made available at this time.

 

[PsyDr]

Why not give psychologists guns and hold us even more accountable? /sarcasm

There needs to be large-scale changes in our MH and social systems....and society....and access to guns. What will happen instead....blame the providers and "the crazy people", even though both groups deserve better.

Why not encourage psychologists to report substance abuse and involuntary hospitalizations to the NICS as required by federal law? And made easier for over a decade.

Note: this is not covered in grad school.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Not sure what people were expecting reading the comments section of any article that is even remotely political in nature. All you're going to get is the worst that humanity has to offer. Has anyone started claiming it was a "black flag" incident yet?

I know better, but one was my colleague. Total "can't look away from the Trainwreck" incident.

 

[erg923]

Well, you guys broke me down and I finally went to some comments sections. Obviously, the usual collection of misinformed opinions and general bloviating.

One thing that did startled me a bit though was how so many people commenting seemed to "relate" to this guy and what he did. Various people commenting about both the VA and their own work environments to the effect of.... hes lucky he didn't work where I do, as he would have killed them all, etc. When did having homicidal ideations become so normalized and OK. Seriously, people really think that being treated unfairly justifies murder????

Consistent with what others have said in this thread, I dont give a flying **** how many "service medals" this dude had...he is a mass murdered and should treated and viewed as such.

 

[psychRA]

I have seen constant critiques based on no information regarding him being kicked out for treatment. It is infuriating - stepping awfully close to victim blaming if not already there.

This is the piece that worries me the most right now. Especially if the reports are true - that he was kicked out for threatening one of the women he eventually killed - his actions are confirmation that that decision was the correct one. We should not have to tolerate threats in our treatment settings, and people should not be allowed to bully their way into getting their needs met by threatening providers who set boundaries with them.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Well, you guys broke me down and I finally went to some comments sections. Obviously, the usual collection of misinformed opinions and general bloviating.

One thing that did startled me a bit was how so many people commenting seemed to "relate" to this guy and what he did. Various people commenting about both the VA and their own work environments to the effect of hes lucky he didn't work where i do, as he would have killed them all, etc. When did having homicidal ideations become so normalized and OK. Seriously, people really think that being treated unfairly justifies murder????

Consistent with what others have said in this thread, I dont give a flying **** how many "service medals" this dude had...he is a mass murdered and should treated and viewed as such.

Yup, I had a similar reaction. After reading post after post of commenters sympathizing with the veteran and his 'plight' (based on...zero actual knowledge of the circumstances?), I mused, 'Beyond shooting several unarmed women, one pregnant, in cold blood, just how much farther down the despicable scale would the perpetrator's behavior have to descend before we could agree that he's no longer a 'hero' but rather...something else? Would it have made a difference if he'd raped, tortured, or immolated them prior to killing them in cold blood or would he still be hailed as a 'hero' striking back against a 'system that failed him?'

 

[erg923]

Yup, I had a similar reaction. After reading post after post of commenter sympathizing with the veteran and his 'plight' (based on...zero actual knowledge of the circumstances?), I mused, 'Beyond shooting several unarmed women, one pregnant, in cold blood, just how much farther down the despicable scale would the perpetrator's behavior have to descend before we could agree that he's no longer a 'hero' but rather...something else? Would it have made a difference if he'd raped, tortured, or immolated them prior to killing them in cold blood or would he still be hailed as a 'hero' striking back against a 'system that failed him?'

The public's seeming perception that PTSD causes psychopathic behavior is beyond me.

It an interesting error though, because it both creates pity (misplaced empathy) and hugely stigmatizes vets at the same time. neither helps them.

 

[WisNeuro]

Talk with your feet, VA psychologists. Get a better paying job outside of the system. And, as an added benefit, you don't get constantly **** upon by your patients and public perception!

 

[cara susanna]

The public's seeming perception that PTSD causes psychopathic behavior is beyond me.

It an interesting error though, because it both creates pity (misplaced empathy) and hugely stigmatizes vets at the same time. neither helps them.

It's the "mental illness = violence" assumption. To the public's credit, I did see some people comment that they have PTSD and they haven't killed anyone.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

I know better, but one was my colleague. Total "can't look away from the Trainwreck" incident.

In the same boat with you

 

[cara susanna]

As a VA provider, I have to say it's pretty disheartening to know that the public will blame me if I get gunned down by a patient.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

It's the "mental illness = violence" assumption. To the public's credit, I did see some people comment that they have PTSD and they haven't killed anyone.

LOL, 'I have PTSD and I haven't killed anyone (yet).' I just had to chuckle at that one...it may have supplied me with my next 'measurable' treatment goal/outcome in Mental Health Suite: 'I will commit 0 murders in the next 6 months.' I apologize for the gallows humor...working with these issues is hard on us and the vets who suffer.

 

[erg923]

I'm sure Ted Bundy was wronged by a few people in his lifetime too. Haven't seen anybody rushing to his defense re: his subsequent actions.

But, he was a veteran, so of course he is put on some kind of ridiculous pedestal that excuses almost all his poor choices. The misplaced empathy and stigmatization is at work. Sad.

 

[psychRA]

The public's seeming perception that PTSD causes psychopathic behavior is beyond me.

It an interesting error though, because it both creates pity (misplaced empathy) and hugely stigmatizes vets at the same time. neither helps them.

I don't know how it made its way into collective awareness, but I really despise the message that choosing to commit violence is a symptom of PTSD. It's not. It's a volitional behavior, and pretending otherwise does such huge disservice to the veterans with PTSD who don't choose to harm others.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Well, you guys broke me down and I finally went to some comments sections. Obviously, the usual collection of misinformed opinions and general bloviating.

One thing that did startled me a bit was how so many people commenting seemed to "relate" to this guy and what he did. Various people commenting about both the VA and their own work environments to the effect of hes lucky he didn't work where i do, as he would have killed them all, etc. When did having homicidal ideations become so normalized and OK. Seriously, people really think that being treated unfairly justifies murder????

Consistent with what others have said in this thread, I dont give a flying **** how many "service medals" this dude had...he is a mass murdered and should treated and viewed as such.

I find it amusing (and rather telling) that the people posting such pro-homicide sentiments online are the same ones urging a 'zero tolerance' stance toward the expression of homicidal sentiments in the therapy hour. They are literally arguing for their own incarceration/ confinement.

 

[cara susanna]

I find it amusing (and rather telling) that the people posting such pro-homicide sentiments online are the same ones urging a 'zero tolerance' stance toward the expression of homicidal sentiments in the therapy hour. They are literally arguing for their own incarceration/ confinement.

See, I have a theory that the reason the public is reacting this way is also in part due to the gun control debate. This gives them more evidence that people who commit violence are mentally ill, and all that we (the mental health providers) have to do in order to prevent violence is "cure" them. If we don't do that, then it's our fault.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

See, I have a theory that the reason the public is reacting this way is also in part due to the gun control debate. This gives them more evidence that people who commit violence are mentally ill, and all that we (the mental health providers) have to do in order to prevent violence is "cure" them. If we don't do that, then it's our fault.

I think it's also because it's become trendy to be intellectually lazy and conspicuously virtuous in espousing simple, victimization narratives to explain complex, terrifying truths of existence, e.g., we could all be taken out at any time by a random, violent part of the universe (person or natural disaster) and, if we can find a scapegoat (e.g., lazy/ inept VA therapists) to blame it on, then we avoid both the cognitive work necessary to try to take a fair look at the complexity of the issue while simulaneously avoiding the existential realities implied by such tragedies. There's a surplus of adult developmental disorders and narcissism in the online and veteran populations.