Half URM advantage?

[Maybedoc1]

Hey, hi, hello,

Question for people who would know the answer to this. How does being half URM affect admissions? I know there is an advantage given to URM’s, but is that extended to people who are not 100%?

A little background: my mom is white and my dad is black. I’m sort of like the kid on the textbook. I’m racially ambiguous, although most people don’t think I’m white when they see me. They know somethings up. I’ve been asked if I’m Brazilian, Latino, etc. I’m like Rashida Jones kind of. Just cuter.

I grew up in one of (if not the) whitest states in the country in a nice small ruralish suburb, which means I don’t “act black”. Growing up I was definitely told that I wasn’t “actually black” numerous times, usually by very pale people. However I’ve identified as black for as long as I can remember. It’s only been recently that i’ve been identifying as white and black. My whole life I have wished I was a bit less ambiguous and looked a bit more black, although I’ve gotten over that now.

I intend to check white and black on my application, but I was curious if the advantage is still there? I have good grades, a semi unique story, etc. but I’ll take all the help I can get with this whole process. I’d even like to write about my biracial experience on secondaries if there’s a place for it.

As an aside skin color genetics are weird. One of my favorite musicians is black and his wife is white. One of his sons looks mixed, while his other son has blondish hair, blue eyes and really light skin.

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[Goro]

It can count. If you have evidence of service to communities of color, even better.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Well my good friend who has a pretty similar background to you had a 3.2/503 and got 6 MD interviews and is now an MD student. So yeah I would say it gives a significant advantage. Use it.

 

[efle]

The school gets to report you as part of their diversity stats. The usual careful phrasing is something like "X% of our students self-identify with a non-white ethnic or racial group" and students who check white + another box will be included. So yeah, you will get the boost.

 

[mydogmolly]

Nobody is cuter than Rashida Jones.

 

[LizzyM]

Is Barak Obama black? Discuss.

 

[efle]

Is Barak Obama black? Discuss.

Would a med school count him as non-white in their diversity office newsletter? Yes. End of discussion!

 

[dr_kateb]

Seems like AMCAS needs a “lightskin” category huh?

 

[Maybedoc1]

Well my good friend who has a pretty similar background to you had a 3.2/503 and got 6 MD interviews and is now an MD student. So yeah I would say it gives a significant advantage. Use it.

Did he have anything amazing about his application to make up for the lower stats? (Disadvantaged? Cured cancer? Lead the raid that killed Osama?) Or was the URM advantage that high?

 

[Maybedoc1]

It can count. If you have evidence of service to communities of color, even better.

I don’t have anything right now, although I’ve been thinking about volunteer opportunities and what I want to do. I’m gonna do the standard hospital volunteering, but I’ve also thought about volunteering for a suicide crisis hotline or a sexual assault crisis hotline. I do live closer to a big city now though so I should see if there’s some opportunity there to volunteer with communities of color.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Did he have anything amazing about his application to make up for the lower stats? (Disadvantaged? Cured cancer? Lead the raid that killed Osama?) Or was the URM advantage that high?

Cookie cutter ECs. It was because he was URM (For the record I’m not someone who has an issue with this). I don’t know why this is a shock, the data published shows this.

 

[LizzyM]

Cookie cutter ECs. It was because he was URM (For the record I’m not someone who has an issue with this). I don’t know why this is a shock, the data published shows this.

Living as a black man in America is an "experience" that is highly valued by adcoms.

 

[Maybedoc1]

Living as a black man in America is an "experience" that is highly valued by adcoms.

Could you elaborate more on this by chance? How is it valued?

Adcoms are obviously not one monolithic creature so there’s probably some variation in the way they view race in America, however some people think racism went the way of the dinosaur. Hopefully adcoms don’t think this way and realize just how difficult of an experience it is.

To be honest, I don’t even fully understand the full experience of being a black man in America, and I’m half black. I just don’t quite look it.

 

[Goro]

Could you elaborate more on this by chance? How is it valued?

Adcoms are obviously not one monolithic creature so there’s probably some variation in the way they view race in America, however some people think racism went the way of the dinosaur. Hopefully adcoms don’t think this way and realize just how difficult of an experience it is.

To be honest, I don’t even fully understand the full experience of being a black man in America, and I’m half black. I just don’t quite look it.

Admissions to med school is merit based (except for legacies). The road travelled is a form of merit, to the great dismay of hyperachievers.

 

[Jaigantic]

Admissions to med school is merit based (except for legacies). The road travelled is a form of merit, to the great dismay of hyperachievers.

(And except for non-domestic applicants)

 

[Med Ed]

Could you elaborate more on this by chance? How is it valued?

Adcoms are obviously not one monolithic creature so there’s probably some variation in the way they view race in America, however some people think racism went the way of the dinosaur. Hopefully adcoms don’t think this way and realize just how difficult of an experience it is.

To be honest, I don’t even fully understand the full experience of being a black man in America, and I’m half black. I just don’t quite look it.

I once had a conversation with one of my co-residents about the experience of being pulled over. He asked me how long it had been since I got stopped for something. At that time is was about 7-8 years, and I was let off with a warning. He told me that he got pulled over almost every month. I'm a white doctor. He's a black doctor. I still think about that conversation when I hear the phrase "post-racial society."

 

[LizzyM]

Could you elaborate more on this by chance? How is it valued?

Adcoms are obviously not one monolithic creature so there’s probably some variation in the way they view race in America, however some people think racism went the way of the dinosaur. Hopefully adcoms don’t think this way and realize just how difficult of an experience it is.

To be honest, I don’t even fully understand the full experience of being a black man in America, and I’m half black. I just don’t quite look it.

Being a black man in America is a rare experience among pre-meds. It is a not uncommon experience in America (proportion of US population that is black and male). Black men add an otherwise absent perspective in the classroom and on clinical teams and more easily gain the trust of black patients than do non-black clinicians. For these and other reasons, adcoms are very interested in interviewing (and admitting) qualified black male applicants.

 

[Goro]

Being a black man in America is a rare experience among pre-meds. It is a not uncommon experience in America (proportion of US population that is black and male). Black men add an otherwise absent perspective in the classroom and on clinical teams and more easily gain the trust of black patients than do non-black clinicians. For these and other reasons, adcoms are very interested in interviewing (and admitting) qualified black male applicants.

In addition to this, only some four hundred African American men applied to medical school last year. This is about the same it was one or two decades ago

 

[NicMouse64]

In addition to this, only some four hundred African American men applied to medical school last year. This is about the same it was one or two decades ago

wow my school, for a non-HBCU, is doing pretty well on the URM side of things.

 

[Skeletorr]

In addition to this, only some four hundred African American men applied to medical school last year. This is about the same it was one or two decades ago

Is that number similar for hispanic urm men?

 

[Goro]

Is that number similar for hispanic urm men?

Don't know.

 

[gyngyn]

Is that number similar for hispanic urm men?

The AAMC does not distinguish between Hispanics with regard to their relative under-representation.
Schools do, though.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

I once had a conversation with one of my co-residents about the experience of being pulled over. He asked me how long it had been since I got stopped for something. At that time is was about 7-8 years, and I was let off with a warning. He told me that he got pulled over almost every month. I'm a white doctor. He's a black doctor. I still think about that conversation when I hear the phrase "post-racial society."

Or he speeds more than you...

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

Or he speeds more than you...

Brah, you for real? he's caught speeding at least once a month and you think they'd let him keep his drivers license?


OP, I'm sure you'll get more points if you are actively serving your URM community.

Best of luck to you!

 

[MacBee]

Brah, you for real? he's caught speeding at least once a month and you think they'd let him keep his drivers license?

You walked right into the troll trap

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

You walked right into the troll trap

dang it!!!

 

[Toutie]

dang it!!!

At least it wasn't a speed trap, or you would have gotten a ticket for sure!

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

At least it wasn't a speed trap, or you would have gotten a ticket for sure!

thank you for the morning giggles

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

Did he have anything amazing about his application to make up for the lower stats? (Disadvantaged? Cured cancer? Lead the raid that killed Osama?) Or was the URM advantage that high?

I'm Biracial (black/white) and I got into D.O school with 495 and 3.3. With nothing too crazy for E.C (Turned down offer) URM must be powerful stuff.

 

[Jaigantic]

Being a black man in America is a rare experience among pre-meds. It is a not uncommon experience in America (proportion of US population that is black and male). Black men add an otherwise absent perspective in the classroom and on clinical teams and more easily gain the trust of black patients than do non-black clinicians. For these and other reasons, adcoms are very interested in interviewing (and admitting) qualified black male applicants.

Admissions to med school is merit based (except for legacies). The road travelled is a form of merit, to the great dismay of hyperachievers.

While I totally agree that the road traveled and the experiences gained from it is a form of merit, is this the only consideration when it comes to giving URM advantage though? Take for instance a premed who is technically URM (lets say half black, half white) but hasn't necessarily gone through that rare experience of being a black (or any other URM race) person in America among premeds. They don't have that otherwise absent perspective. By this logic, such applicants would not receive any sort of boost when applying, even if they have demonstrated involvement in those communities of color, because allegedly it's the experience itself of being URM that's coveted. But we all know that that's not completely true and that it's very common for URM applicants who do not have those unique experiences or perspectives to still get the admissions boost for the following reason:

The school gets to report you as part of their diversity stats. The usual careful phrasing is something like "X% of our students self-identify with a non-white ethnic or racial group" and students who check white + another box will be included. So yeah, you will get the boost.

That's not exactly a meritocracy.

 

[efle]

That's not exactly a meritocracy.

Did someone tell you medical admissions was a meritocracy?? Hell, there are thousands of people every year who are only going to be MDs because they happened to be from a lucky state with accessible, instate-favoring public schools. Merit takes a back seat to some other considerations

 

[Jaigantic]

Did someone tell you medical admissions was a meritocracy?? Hell, there are thousands of people every year who are only going to be MDs because they happened to be from a lucky state with accessible, instate-favoring public schools. Merit takes a back seat to some other considerations

Um, yes. See Goro's post I quoted in my previous comment. And I know "merit based" is different from "meritocracy" but I'm actually curious to know if the points of "gaining new insights and perspectives as a product of the road you traveled as a URM" that @LizzyM and @Goro are emphasizing are the only factors at play when it comes to this. Because it seems like that's not the case.

But yeah, I agree with you entirely. Merit does not seem to be the only or sometimes even the main consideration.

 

[Goro]

Um, yes. See Goro's post I quoted in my previous comment. And I know "merit based" is different from "meritocracy" but I'm actually curious to know if the points of "gaining new insights and perspectives as a product of the road you traveled as a URM" that @LizzyM and @Goro are emphasizing are the only factors at play when it comes to this. Because it seems like that's not the case.

But yeah, I agree with you entirely. Merit does not seem to be the only or sometimes even the main consideration.

Merit won't get one anywhere if they can't handle medical school. So yeah, it's one part of the package.

 

[LizzyM]

Um, yes. See Goro's post I quoted in my previous comment. And I know "merit based" is different from "meritocracy" but I'm actually curious to know if the points of "gaining new insights and perspectives as a product of the road you traveled as a URM" that @LizzyM and @Goro are emphasizing are the only factors at play when it comes to this. Because it seems like that's not the case.

But yeah, I agree with you entirely. Merit does not seem to be the only or sometimes even the main consideration.

If you are living as a black person in America, even if -- or perhaps especially -- if you are living in an area that is overwhelmingly white, you are having the experience of living as a black person. When we talk about what besides GPA and MCAT gets you through the door, one of the things is "experience" and the more rare the experience, the more likely it will set the applicant apart when a school is seeking to diversity its student body.

 

[Jaigantic]

If you are living as a black person in America, even if -- or perhaps especially -- if you are living in an area that is overwhelmingly white, you are having the experience of living as a black person. When we talk about what besides GPA and MCAT gets you through the door, one of the things is "experience" and the more rare the experience, the more likely it will set the applicant apart when a school is seeking to diversity its student body.

Ok, but what is it about that "experience" that is desired by schools?

 

[LizzyM]

Ok, but what is it about that "experience" that is desired by schools?

If you can't understand this point, you may be too obtuse to attend medical school.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Well you can choose your gender these days so I identify as a lesbian black female. I'll just slip my 490 MCAT and 3.1 GPA application under your door, and when can you get that acceptance to me? Thanks in advance.

On a serious note I agree with the above poster.

Just by having darker skin doesn't prove to me that you've had any certain experience. Now if you grew up impoverished? Sure.

If growing up in an area as a minority that is predominantly white is favored, how about growing up as a white person in an area that is predominantly non white?

 

[Lawpy]

If you can't understand this point, you may be too obtuse to attend medical school.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I myself understand the point. "Blacks have it much harder in this country, white privilege, etc". I just believe this is bs.

There is wealth privilege. Always has been always will be.

Many blacks (and other minorities) have been generationally screwed by slavery and other injustices, which affects their descendants today.

However, correlation does not equal causation. There is a common factor- most slaves in America were black, and many descendants of slaves are struggling from those injustices.

There are outliers. Some slaves' descendants still managed to get ahead financially due to America's wealth mobility, and some blacks ancestors weren't even here during slavery. Take my coworker for instance- he is a very wealthy Nigerian that came here 4 years ago.


Better question- why not just make it about poverty and that be the end of it? No more judging someone’s life experience off of their color, but something more tangible. I guarantee you every single impoverished person has experienced hardship.

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

I myself understand the point. "Blacks have it much harder in this country, white privilege, etc". I just believe this is bs.

There is wealth privilege. Always has been always will be.

Many blacks (and other minorities) have been generationally screwed by slavery and other injustices, which affects their descendants today.

However, correlation does not equal causation. There is a common factor- most slaves in America were black, and many descendants of slaves are struggling from those injustices.

There are outliers. Some slaves' descendants still managed to get ahead financially due to America's wealth mobility, and some blacks ancestors weren't even here during slavery. Take my coworker for instance- he is a very wealthy Nigerian that came here 4 years ago.


Better question- why not just make it about poverty and that be the end of it? No more judging someone’s life experience off of their color, but something more tangible. I guarantee you every single impoverished person has experienced hardship.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re just trolling or not. But ok, I’ll bite.

They are talking about the experience of being a young black man or woman in this country. So just because you have never experienced discrimination because of your white skin, does not mean it doesn’t happen to POC. And no, these experiences have nothing to do with their bank account or “wealth”. No one asks to see your W2 before deciding if they should treat you like dirt!!!

I’m a POC and while living in the mainland US: I’ve had patients refuse my care until I tell them if my “family immigrated to America legally”. I’ve had little old ladies ask for my “legal papers to work”. Lol!!! I’ve been forbidden to enter patient rooms because I’m “a ***back nurse” and they preferred the “blonde angels” (my coworkers). I’ve been denied housing, refused service at restaurants and bars, and even asked on several occasions to leave our neighborhood park with my kids because we “looked suspicious” (yes, we lived in a predominantly white community).

My experiences had nothing to do with wealth and more to do with the color of my skin. But that’s nothing compared to what some of these folks go through on a daily basis because of their skin color. I can only imagine...

You’re a nurse, compassion should be second nature to you even if you are obviously unaware of the plight suffered by others.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[RNtoMD87]

You think I’ve never been discriminated against because I’m white? I literally had a black nurse coworker that I thought I was pretty cool with the other day say “One day I wanna start a school for poor kids. Especially black kids. That’s my life dream.” Then she looks dead at me, and says “you cool and all, no offense, but I only really care about black people getting ahead, no offense I guess I’m a little racist but oh well.”

I was in shock, it really put me on the spot, and I imagined what would have happened if the roles had been reversed.

I deal with this kind of bs on an almost daily basis because “well white people run stuff”, Uh I don’t run jack. My family was dirt poor before my dad who was middle class, and I am now upper middle class because I worked my ass off.

All to be disrespected to my face often and it’s socially acceptable.


Not to mention, I had a girl I dated that was very poor (this is 10 years ago, both broke ass college students right out of high school) and lived in a predominantly black rough area of town. Every time I came and visited her, she had several guys that would follow her aggressively pursuing her, as well as asking me “what the f I was doing around there”.

In my OWN neighborhood I live in right now (Midcity BR) I can’t go for a walk down MY street without people flipping me off and cussing me out when I politely nod at them.


Racial discrimination happens both ways.

I’ll add- I can understand if you have a GOOD story of why being a POC challenged you, but it irks me that it’s just blanketly accepted “oh you’re black, man you’ve sure had a hard time here ya go”

I guarantee you that you can’t accurately assume how difficult someone’s life is based on skin color.

 

[2021Doctor]

Sad that we cannot get beyond this garbage. We are all members of the same race which is the human rsce. Any other divisions are artificial constructs. A prime example is Meghan Markle. Some people artificially classify her according to their own biases. There are no scientific criteria backing this. There is no gene or cluster of genes that identify someone as "black" or "white".

 

[LizzyM]

This isn't about any of you and it isn't about wealth, poverty or 'hardship". It is about patients and their need for physicians of color, for future medical students to see that people like them can rise to through the ranks to professorships and attending physician roles.

You think I’ve never been discriminated against because I’m white? I literally had a black nurse coworker that I thought I was pretty cool with the other day say “One day I wanna start a school for poor kids. Especially black kids. That’s my life dream.” Then she looks dead at me, and says “you cool and all, no offense, but I only really care about black people getting ahead, no offense I guess I’m a little racist but oh well.”

That must have been difficult to hear and respond to in the heat of the moment but rather than make it about you and others like you, why not hear that your coworker has compassion for poor kids, particularly kids of color and wants to start a school. Could you acknowledge and praise that dream based on the fact that it comes from a place of wanting to help vulnerable kids who struggle to make it? Don't let a coworker bait you into an argument about race... defuse the argument by telling her what a great idea that is and how great she is to care about poor kids who need good schools.

 

[RNtoMD87]

This isn't about any of you and it isn't about wealth, poverty or 'hardship". It is about patients and their need for physicians of color, for future medical students to see that people like them can rise to through the ranks to professorships and attending physician roles.



That must have been difficult to hear and respond to in the heat of the moment but rather than make it about you and others like you, why not hear that your coworker has compassion for poor kids, particularly kids of color and wants to start a school. Could you acknowledge and praise that dream based on the fact that it comes from a place of wanting to help vulnerable kids who struggle to make it? Don't let a coworker bait you into an argument about race... defuse the argument by telling her what a great idea that is and how great she is to care about poor kids who need good schools.

That’s the thing, she wasn’t trying to start an argument, we get along well, and I wasn’t even in the conversation she was having, I was siting next to her charting on a patient. This is far from a rare occurrence, and I feel like it’s unacceptable.

I just looked at her, and then looked away. How come in that instance we should focus on the positive, but if a white person says something like “wow that black person talks white (honestly another pet peeve of mine. I’ve heard whites and blacks both say this), we should tell them it’s wrong right there?

I just don’t like the double standard. Either it’s okay or not okay to discriminate about race. I strongly feel that it isn’t okay.

 

[Med Ed]

You think I’ve never been discriminated against because I’m white? I literally had a black nurse coworker that I thought I was pretty cool with the other day say “One day I wanna start a school for poor kids. Especially black kids. That’s my life dream.” Then she looks dead at me, and says “you cool and all, no offense, but I only really care about black people getting ahead, no offense I guess I’m a little racist but oh well.”

Yeah, that's totally the same as being asked about your immigration status, asked for your papers, refused service, and denied housing.

A large number of your "contributions" to this forum are essentially boring anecdotes about your own life. Perhaps you should unplug for awhile and go read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander... or something. Anything.

 

[MacBee]

A large number of your "contributions" to this EVERY forum are essentially boring anecdotes about your own life.

Fixed that for you

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yeah all of those things you listed are illegal. Simple- someone does those things, you get evidence and report it. I’ve toyed with the idea of doing that at my workplace when someone says something racist to me. We all have recorders on our phones these days.

It amazes me how blind people are to the double standard. It’s okay for some races to want to further their race, but when others do it, it’s prejudice. By letting anyone do it, you’re making the case for all. Which is ridiculous. We’re all people. Like jk said, it’s sad that we’re still on and on about race as human beings, makes me realize how simple creatures we really are.

 

[tradkeke]

I think using URM as part of the admissions process is great, but I wish there was the same push to recruit/accept applicants from low-SES as well. On average I am shocked at how bad most privileged kids, regardless of race, are at communicating with poor/undeserved/uneducated populations.

 

[LizzyM]

I think using URM as part of the admissions process is great, but I wish there was the same push to recruit/accept applicants from low-SES as well. On average I am shocked at how bad most privileged kids, regardless of race, are at communicating is poor/undeserved/uneducated populations.

Have you applied yet? There is a section to describe childhood disadvantage and even if you don't self-identify as such, your application will be assessed and tagged if your parents attended school in the US but did not attend college or they attended college but work in clerical jobs.

 

[Jaigantic]

If you can't understand this point, you may be too obtuse to attend medical school.

I understand the point just fine. I even stated that I do view it the same way as you. I do see the merit of the experience of being a premed person of color. I think the URM boost is legitimate for the same reasons you posited.

But it seems like you're, perhaps intentionally, ignoring or not understanding my point because you've ignored the main question I've had in all of my posts. The "experience" of being a black or mexican or native american or whatever other URM applicant is not the same for every individual across each of those racial groups. There is no one size fits all trajectory in life for every person of color or minority. That's why I asked you what is it about the experience that is desirable. It's a vague generalization you're making.

This isn't about any of you and it isn't about wealth, poverty or 'hardship". It is about patients and their need for physicians of color, for future medical students to see that people like them can rise to through the ranks to professorships and attending physician roles.

^This is the point I'm addressing. The main point of that URM boost is because populations of color need someone who they can relate to and identify with. Again, I am a supporter of this notion. But again, what if the experiences of that physician are entirely distinct from that of those minority populations? How can they empathize or relate then? What if a white person has spent more time in those communities, understands their cultural background and practices, and can relate with them on a much deeper, personal level? Purely from a pragmatic perspective, in the case of the former, the patients or future medical students would not be able to identify at all with the physician. If anything they would feel even more isolated because these "people like them" are only people like them insofar as their skin color (if that; not all people of color are actually of color). But not their life perspectives or experiences, which we've established is the important consideration. But we also know that the latter example of the white applicant would not be given those same advantages that URM applicants receive, because schools also want to "diversify" their students bodies. I know I'm posing all of these examples as hypotheticals but they are still often the case in reality.


I feel like I need to emphasize that I am not anti-URM. I am a strong proponent of this boost given to those applicants due to their unique EXPERIENCES. But you're making the system seem much more holistic and flawless than I see it. And I want to know why. I'm not saying my opinions are absolutely right and I will prove you wrong at all costs. You are part of academic administration so I cede that your opinions may be more informed than mine, and I want to learn. Which is why I'm asking you. If you think I'm obtuse, why not explain more in depth and answer my questions to educate me, rather than curtly brushing my points aside?