Harvard MD/PhD vs Columbia MSTP

[Ulysses]

What would you choose in you were in my shoes?

1) Harvard Medical School. I get to choose either MD (4 years) or MD/PhD (8 years+), but there's no funding for the medical school in either case, so I get to graduate with 100-150K debt.

Or

2) Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, M.S.T.P. fully funded by NIH (tuition + stipend) for seven years?

Comments, opinions and ideas are appreciated.

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[scudrunner]

Columbia, it's a no-brainer dude (or dudette).

 

[BNSN]

Turing down Harvard is difficult (not that I was given that opportunity), but Columbia is a fantastic school. If you were comparing a lesser-regarded school versus Harvard, I might be tempted to say Harvard. But you're dealing with Columbia. Take the fellowship and don't look back.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'd go Harvard MD only unless you're dead set on PhD. 4 years of physician salary > 150k in debt.

 

[boggvir]

MSTP. Columbia is an excellent school. You have no debt plus you'll have some money coming in, and you'll have a PhD, if you want to be a researcher.

If you don't want to go into research, go Harvard MD only.

 

[135892]

Are you debating MD vs MD/PhD? Or MD/PhD at Harvard vs Columbia MSTP? If its the latter, this is a no brainer... Columbia all the way. If you're debating the former, then its completely a personal call, as no one can really help you decide what you want out of your career. If you haven't already done so though, you should go check out the PhD forum here on SDN.

 

[shindotp]

I'd go Harvard MD only unless you're dead set on PhD. 4 years of physician salary > 150k in debt.

Heck, 4 years of research salary > 150k.

Get an MD and do a post-doc for 2 years and you'll end up at the same place you would with and MD/PhD from Columbia, but 2 years ahead (unless you would have done a post-doc after your MD/PhD which many choose to do). By the way, you'll most likely spend more than 3 years getting your PhD if you go to Columbia.

 

[redlight]

well isnt this a md[harvard] vs md phd [harvard] vs mstp [columbia]? figure out if you want to do md or mdphd/mstp... then if doing md phd/mstp, i say go with columbia. free ride plus stipend is too tempting, but then again idk how much you'll get out of a Hahvahd md and phd (prestige, networking, w.e.) in your field of choice.

 

[drbetty]

Go for the Columbia MSTP. You can continue research throughout your medical career as a plain old MD, and will get plenty of research under your belt with the MSTP. You'll feel better in the end with the money and time saved when the end point is similar. Both institutions will give you excellent connections and a superb medical education.

 

[orrghead16]

Comparing MD/PhD programs is very different that comparing MD programs. As such, you are asking the wrong board. The pre-allo kids couldn't compare two MD/PhD programs any better than they could compare the two med schools alone. Which is certainly the wrong approach.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=32

But really, it is a no brainer. If you want to be a researcher 150 grand (and arguably NOT at one of the top MSTPs) is not worth the label you get from Harvard. That is, unless you think you would be happier.

 

[Ponger]

What is up with all the XXXXXX vs Columbia threads? Was Columbia no one's outright top choice?

 

[Katatonic]

Columbia MSTP, no doubt. Why would you willingly induce $150K of debt when you could get fully funded?

 

[drizzt3117]

Columbia MSTP, no doubt. Why would you willingly induce $150K of debt when you could get fully funded?

because even with the time value of money the four extra years you'll work will be much more than $150k. The fact that the OP is considering MD only makes it seem like they're not totally set on MD/PhD.

 

[Red Leader]

Harvard MD/PhD > Columbia MSTP.

As a prospective MSTP, I'd choose Harvard...even if I had to pay and wasn't MSTP. I'd probably check out the departments your interested in and see who has more famous people.

IMO the brand counts for a lot.

 

[StIGMA]

Both programs will take you where you want to go. What decision will you regret more in 4, 8, 12 years? 16 years from now when you are finishing your fellowship, will still having to pay off your med school debt add to your stress or influence your future career options or affect your decision of whether or not to start a family? Do not pick the school just for the H name or you could really regret to choice. Unless you are extremely shallow, it will not matter. Each school is extremely reputable, and again, will prepare you for the top residencies in any field. Unless you absolutely despise Columbia for whatever reason (I am also accepted MSTP here, it is a fantastic program), it is the choice that you will likely prefer long-term.

Additionally, from what I have heard from people facing the option of Johns Hopkins MD-PhD vs MSTP at another program, they usually choose the MSTP (search the forums for this).

 

[orrghead16]

I'd probably check out the departments your interested in and see who has more famous people.

If only grad school was as simple as that... . Point is MD/PhD program selection is based on a variety of things. Things like location, avg. graduation time (which is higher at Harvard...), coordination of program, specific area of research-interest. Things that are far more subjective and not so cut and dry. Obsession with name will make you just another bitter product of the system.

Putting one or the other or any other 'top' MD/PhD program over another before interviewing is rather naive.

I have heard that the Harvard MSTP is a rather ungreased machine, with a dark room they throw their grad students in and then let them finally find their way out ofter 5 years. But who knows... Maybe it is all it is cut up to be and worth 150 grand. I would have no idea since I am not in the OP's shoes and have barely set a foot in Cambridge.

because even with the time value of money the four extra years you'll work will be much more than $150k. The fact that the OP is considering MD only makes it seem like they're not totally set on MD/PhD.

It has been discussed at length that monetary reasons alone should never justify MD/PhD. A straight MD approach blows it out of the water every time. If the ultimate debate is MD v. combined degree, then it is up to the OP to decide which career path he is up for. But it is not as simple as thinking you can do a 2 year post-doc and then start a lab, especially at the current state of funding and competition within academia. Sure it is plausible. At some point you need basic science training if that is what you are interested in and (IMO) it is ultimately easier to do w/ doctoral training. It would SUCK getting paid on postdoc (only slightly more than MD/PhD stipend) salary for 3 years with debt looming over your head knowing that you could potentially achieved a similar career path in an MSTP. But that is largely a matter of opinion and quite dependent on the research (if you even are) you are interested in doing.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Well, under no circumstances should you choose the unfunded MD/PhD. That's the worst position because you will graduate with the most debt because it will accumulate while you do the PhD, and Harvard MD/PhDs tend to spend a long time in training. I guess you need to ask yourself if the PhD is important to you, but more important than the idea of turning down Harvard for Columbia is sacrificing another 3-5 years of your life. That sacrifice v. gaining the extra degree and skills should be driving your decision, not the school, IMHO.

 

[Evergrey]

What is up with all the XXXXXX vs Columbia threads? Was Columbia no one's outright top choice?

Columbia unfortunately occupies the liminal space between the top of the list and the middle of the list, making it a secondary option both average students (too high) and exceptional students (a bit too low).

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Mods, move this thread to the Physician Scientists forum please

 

[Red Leader]

If only grad school was as simple as that... . Point is MD/PhD program selection is based on a variety of things. Things like location, avg. graduation time (which is higher at Harvard...), coordination of program, specific area of research-interest. Things that are far more subjective and not so cut and dry. Obsession with name will make you just another bitter product of the system.

Putting one or the other or any other 'top' MD/PhD program over another before interviewing is rather naive.

I have heard that the Harvard MSTP is a rather ungreased machine, with a dark room they throw their grad students in and then let them finally find their way out ofter 5 years. But who knows... Maybe it is all it is cut up to be and worth 150 grand. I would have no idea since I am not in the OP's shoes and have barely set a foot in Cambridge.

The OP here is choosing between NY and Boston. Both big cities, I'd probably prioritize my lab/PI over location when the location is not a huge factor.

Second, by no means was I suggesting an obsession with name. Upon mentioning of joining Harvard for their excellent professors many tend to stop reading right after "Harvard" and ignore the rest. Perhaps they are the ones more obsessed with the name?

Branding is very important. I am a lowly undergrad on the totem pole, but I have seen grad students from different labs, some famous, some not, and seen some progress directly to professorships upon graduation, and others destined to be professional postdocs for the rest of their lives. There is a very big contrast when I speak with them side by side and hear their stories.

The ivory tower we often hear about certainly exists, and it is not a large circle. If you are in, then you are in. But if you are not in that circle it is very difficult to gain access. The best and easiest way to gain access is to study under such a reknowned PI perhaps a NAS member, NAE member, or Nobel laureate.

And by no means does choosing a big name lab mean you will be neglected. Prejudice against a whole institution of program based on hearsay will not help you.

Just my 2 cents for the OP here. I'm not saying anything negative about Columbia, but rather, just to place more weight on the career aspect of things when making a choice. And finally, congrats on getting into both these great schools.

 

[scarletgirl777]

The OP here is choosing between NY and Boston. Both big cities, I'd probably prioritize my lab/PI over location when the location is not a huge factor.

Second, by no means was I suggesting an obsession with name. Upon mentioning of joining Harvard for their excellent professors many tend to stop reading right after "Harvard" and ignore the rest. Perhaps they are the ones more obsessed with the name?

Branding is very important. I am a lowly undergrad on the totem pole, but I have seen grad students from different labs, some famous, some not, and seen some progress directly to professorships upon graduation, and others destined to be professional postdocs for the rest of their lives. There is a very big contrast when I speak with them side by side and hear their stories.

The ivory tower we often hear about certainly exists, and it is not a large circle. If you are in, then you are in. But if you are not in that circle it is very difficult to gain access. The best and easiest way to gain access is to study under such a reknowned PI perhaps a NAS member, NAE member, or Nobel laureate.

And by no means does choosing a big name lab mean you will be neglected. Prejudice against a whole institution of program based on hearsay will not help you.

Just my 2 cents for the OP here. I'm not saying anything negative about Columbia, but rather, just to place more weight on the career aspect of things when making a choice. And finally, congrats on getting into both these great schools.

I don't think the dark room comment is too far from truth. Definitely some people unhappy with the amount of time their PhD is taking.

 

[Red Leader]

I don't think the dark room comment is too far from truth. Definitely some people unhappy with the amount of time their PhD is taking.

I've seen many people say this, but can you back up your statement? Describe what you mean by "dark room." It sounds ominous but what exactly is it?

A PhD is not about someone holding your hand, or even showing you the ropes. Your PI will probably not be giving you ideas. You will come up with your own ideas, write your own papers, and your PI's job is to sell youR* stuff if he deems it worthy. Finally, why would you choose a PI that is notorious for holding their grad students for many years or have 8 year average graduation times?

*edit

 

[AggieSean]

I can't believe anyone would suggest you turn down a free medical school education, ESPECIALLY from Columbia. You do realize that saying Harvard's name carries more weight than Columbia's is like saying every time you get out of the ocean its water level drops because of the water clinging to you? Technically it's true but it's INSIGNIFICANT. These are both fantastic schools, you should leap at the free opportunity to go to P&S.
As a married medical student who already has debt (and going to school in Texas isn't THAT expensive) I can tell you that it sucks and will be delaying our future family planning.
These people saying that 150k of debt isn't a big deal probably haven't had that kind of debt. With 6% interest on that puppy it'll get out of hand really quickly, sucking up your income. That's another thing, everyone says you can pay it back quickly with your high income. We have no idea what physician income is going to look like in the ~10-12 years when you'll be out.
Please, PLEASE take the safe road and go to Columbia for free. If anyone tries to tell you seriously that it's somehow a step down from Harvard, ignore them. They clearly don't know what they're talking about.

 

[AggieSean]

Columbia unfortunately occupies the liminal space between the top of the list and the middle of the list, making it a secondary option both average students (too high) and exceptional students (a bit too low).

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

What would you choose in you were in my shoes?

1) Harvard Medical School. I get to choose either MD (4 years) or MD/PhD (8 years+), but there's no funding for the medical school in either case, so I get to graduate with 100-150K debt.

Or

2) Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, M.S.T.P. fully funded by NIH (tuition + stipend) for seven years?

Comments, opinions and ideas are appreciated.

Are you really, really, interested in research? I.e. you will not drop the PhD no matter how hard/nasty it becomes (because it will)? If so, then Columbia MSTP. No brainer.

If you have any doubts about research, I would do the Harvard MD and ignore the PhD, leaving research for after residency, if ever.

Under no circumstances would I do a non-funded MD/PhD at Harvard. PhDs at Harvard are notoriously hard - students are thrown on projects that are high risk and left to sink-or-swim by their mentor. Mentors are world leaders in the field and always busy or away. The MSTP at Harvard (are they at least backing you up, even if they're not funding you?) is notorious for not having a well-integrated program. People have been finishing up in 9-11 years much more so than 7-9 years.

Ultimately, I suspect you're going to find it hard to pass up the MD/PhD at Harvard, just because it's the most prestigious of the three options, and MD/PhD applicants/students are very entrained in prestige. However, I think this is the worst option for multiple reasons, as outlined above.

Also, it might help if you let us know what field you are interested in. For some fields, Columbia is every bit as good as Harvard - most notably neuroscience.

 

[Neuronix]

Mods, move this thread to the Physician Scientists forum please

Aw, do I have to?!?! Tell me this thread isn't an April Fools joke on ME.

Anyways, pick Columbia. The reasons are obvious and are all over this thread.

 

[Calf]

Columbia all the way.

 

[chirpingmobiles]

Know that if you choose Harvard, there will be a significant chance that you decide to drop the PhD later. You will get exposed to a lot of opportunities in med school that might make you second guess the PhD, especially if you are not funded and facing debt. Of course, this may be a good thing if you are at all uncertain about MD/PhD.

As for funding, there is the 2nd cycle process at Harvard that makes it fairly likely you will be funded after the first 2 years, but it is far from certain. So, Harvard might give you, say, a ~70-80% chance of 75K of debt vs 20-30% of 150K of debt (made up the numbers, so don't hold me to them). If I were in your shoes, I'd probably choose the full ride at Columbia, but ultimately it's a personal choice depending on finances, location, career goals, potential PIs, etc. Also, as for length/difficulty of PhDs at Harvard, it really depends on your mentor, what you want out of a PhD and, of course, some luck. Harvard is not the well-greased machine that some other programs are, but I'm not sure Columbia is that different.

 

[dynezxice]

I don't understand. I thought Harvard's MD/PhD program was NIH funded?

 

[marctam86]

I don't understand. I thought Harvard's MD/PhD program was NIH funded?

it is. OP's decision is between paying to do the MD+PhD separately at harvard, or getting paid to get the same degrees at Columbia.

what's in a name? if your answer is "a couple hundred thousand dollars", then go to harvard.

ugh. i can't believe you'd consider that though. maybe i'd understand if you wanted to be in Boston for personal reasons, but really? hundreds of thousands of dollars just for a name? do you really want to dig yourself into that big a hole? going into that much debt would probably undermine a career in research.

good luck with the decision, but it should be an easy one. oh, and columbia's great.

 

[Evergrey]

Are you being sarcastic?

Sort of. I wrote that on a study break from writing my undergrad humanities major thesis =)

 

[dmblue]

columbia....then you get to say you turned down harvard

 

[Tradewind]

Is this a real scenario? I find it very hard to believe that Harvard Medical School has accepted you as a medical student but is unable to fund you as an MD/PhD student. Harvard has one of the better endowments. I guess anything's possible with the current economy, though. Alternatively, maybe Harvard isn't convinced you'd stick with the PhD portion...

If this is a real scenario, and you prefer Harvard (as is implied, since you'd consider paying for medical school even though you'd be an MD/PhD student, which is telling), I would present Harvard with your Columbia offer and see if they can offer you at least some funding during medical school.

If you really want both degrees and Harvard won't fund you, go to Columbia.

Personally, I would not start an MD/PhD program if I knew I wouldn't be funded through medical school.

 

[Neuronix]

Is this a real scenario? I find it very hard to believe that Harvard Medical School has accepted you as a medical student but is unable to fund you as an MD/PhD student. Harvard has one of the better endowments. I guess anything's possible with the current economy, though. Alternatively, maybe Harvard isn't convinced you'd stick with the PhD portion...

Yes, this is a common scenario. Harvard and Hopkins are two programs that do take unfunded students. There are only a few other MSTPs in this same catagory, so it is rare. Seems strange doesn't it? Harvard's affiliates may combine to make over $1 billion in research funding. Hopkins med school may have the most funding of any med school. But somehow WashU and Penn find more money to have much larger programs and fund all of their students. I don't mean to say anything negative against Hopkins/Harvard, only to tell the strange truth.

Personally, I would not start an MD/PhD program if I knew I wouldn't be funded through medical school.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Yes, this is a common scenario. Harvard and Hopkins are two programs that do take unfunded students. There are only a few other MSTPs in this same catagory, so it is rare. Seems strange doesn't it? Harvard's affiliates may combine to make over $1 billion in research funding. Hopkins med school may have the most funding of any med school. But somehow WashU and Penn find more money to have much larger programs and fund all of their students. I don't mean to say anything negative against Hopkins/Harvard, only to tell the strange truth.

I have read that this is because MD/PhDs are not particularly special at these places, because allegedly everyone is doing such amazing things. Somewhat doubtful of that. I really don't think the average Harvard med student is that much better than the average Penn or WashU student.

Honestly, though, the Harvard name is so thoroughly engrained in the public consciousness that I bet if Harvard refused to fund ANY MD/PhD's, they'd still be able to recruit an excellent class.

 

[JHopRevisit]

Yes, this is a common scenario. Harvard and Hopkins are two programs that do take unfunded students. There are only a few other MSTPs in this same catagory, so it is rare. Seems strange doesn't it? Harvard's affiliates may combine to make over $1 billion in research funding. Hopkins med school may have the most funding of any med school. But somehow WashU and Penn find more money to have much larger programs and fund all of their students. I don't mean to say anything negative against Hopkins/Harvard, only to tell the strange truth.

You know you guys have private funding, right? So does WashU. The NIH gave us 12 slots. They gave you 12 slots. Then, someone gave you lots and lot of money, specifically for your program. No one has given us lots and lots of money. So you have 24 slots. And we have 12.

We give more than 12 kids the option to come here. Usually, they have MSTP funding somewhere else, and we tell them to go and take it. Sometimes, they're loaded, or their sick uncle lives in Maryland, or they grew up reading Ben Carson books or learning about William Osler. So they come here anyway. A very strange truth indeed. You've made this criticism a bunch of times, but I really don't get it. We just don't have the money for more than 12 spots (with the economy we're strapped for the amount we have right now). But giving a few kids who just barely missed out the chance to come if they have special circumstances seems like a good thing, right? We just say "Hey, if you have funding at another MSTP we totally understand if you take it, but if for some special reason you really want to come here go on ahead, you're smart." What else do you want us to do?

Not to mention, you consistently criticize MD-PhD programs nationally, and state that they don't actually train more physician-scientists. So it's a little hypocritical to ding Harvard for not pumping more money into it, no?

 

[JHopRevisit]

I have read that this is because MD/PhDs are not particularly special at these places, because allegedly everyone is doing such amazing things. Somewhat doubtful of that. I really don't think the average Harvard med student is that much better than the average Penn or WashU student.

Not really. It's because no rich alum or company has given us gobs and gobs of money for the MD-PhD program specifically. You're right, I don't think there's too much difference in the students or whatever. Everything always comes down to $$$.

Honestly, though, the Harvard name is so thoroughly engrained in the public consciousness that I bet if Harvard refused to fund ANY MD/PhD's, they'd still be able to recruit an excellent class.

Yep, every year lots of students choose to go the Harvard MD route over other MSTPs. They're the only school that seems to do that consistently. They do a better job than most of integrating scientific principles into the medical curriculum, although I think people give their curriculum too much credit. An MD is not a PhD, no matter how well done.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Eh, above poster overestimates the importance of specific MD/PhD endowments in funding MD/PhD programs. Sure there are examples like Ross Perot at UTSouthwestern, but I see lots of non-NIH funded slots being funded by direct alllocation from the Dean's office or similar entity. This means slots are paid by tuition, indirect costs from other investigator's grants, or the state.

Point being, the Dean of Harvard or the Dean of Johns Hopkins could spend more of their pot of money allocated from the school budget on the MSTP to fully fund students, or they could spend it on something else. They chose to spend it on something else.

 

[JHopRevisit]

Eh, above poster overestimates the importance of specific MD/PhD endowments in funding MD/PhD programs.

I believe WashU and UPenn, the two largest programs, have both received large private donations in the past. I don't know what % of their program those endowments fund. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right though, all institutions could expand their MD-PhD programs if they so chose. Honestly, I'm glad they don't, I think 10 a year or so is a good number, although I can see some advantages to a big number as well. However, I believe you're even more vocal than Nix about saying that MD-PhD programs are not effective in their stated mission of training physician scientists, correct? So you would prefer most programs not expand their size, right?

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I believe WashU and UPenn, the two largest programs, have both received large private donations in the past. I don't know what % of their program those endowments fund. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Olin Foundation supports WashU's MSTP to the tune of about $20 million or so), and Uncle Perot gave UTSW $32 million. I don't know about Penn. But consider that in order to support a single student, the cost at a private school is about $50,000/year, suggesting an endowment to support a single student over eight years of training at $8,000,000. (In comparison named chairs go for about $1,500,000.)

You're right though, all institutions could expand their MD-PhD programs if they so chose. Honestly, I'm glad they don't, I think 10 a year or so is a good number, although I can see some advantages to a big number as well. However, I believe you're even more vocal than Nix about saying that MD-PhD programs are not effective in their stated mission of training physician scientists, correct? So you would prefer most programs not expand their size, right?

Eh, I'm not saying programs are effective or ineffective, considering the dearth of evidence for either conclusion. What I would suggest is that money should flow to programs that definitively create investigators, and less to others that don't, and similar integrated research programs need to be implemented in residency, especially in those residencies popular with graduates.

 

[Neuronix]

A very strange truth indeed. You've made this criticism a bunch of times, but I really don't get it.

I'm not criticizing. I'm just telling Tradewind how it is.

Not to mention, you consistently criticize MD-PhD programs nationally, and state that they don't actually train more physician-scientists.

I never said that. Of course they train physician-scientists. Even if only 1/4 of your MD/PhD program graduates go on to be 80/20 research/clinical, that's a far greater number than the fraction of a percentage of MD students who do this. I like to talk about why 100% of MD/PhD students don't go on to be primarily researchers. I don't think students are starting programs without having a love for research, but the system requires tremendous sacrifices for those who choose a mostly research lifestyle. I think that makes scientific careers seem unappealing, and a majority of MD/PhDs bail on research at one point or another. Did I ever go so far as to say MD/PhD programs should thus be scrapped? Never.

 

[Ariodant]

Many schools provide additional funding to their MSTPers in addition to the NIH money, epecially at places where the cost of living is high. We just accepted an internal applicant to our class, and his funding will come entirely from the Dean's office. Being a public university in a nearly bankrupt state, I doubt our funding situation is any better than that of Harvard or Hopkins. I think it is mostly a matter of choice, not means.

 

[Tradewind]

Well, we haven't heard back from the OP, yet, but now I see how this could actually be true. And now I know why a recent MD/PhD student I interacted with kept emphasizing how he had a "fully funded MSTP spot" (like there are other varieties?)

Anyway, to the OP- just because Harvard is Harvard, don't let them treat you badly. i.e, Don't accept the MD/PhD minus med school funding and become their doormat. I think the choice should be Columbia MD/PhD v Harvard MD only. Were it me, I'd pick Columbia's MSTP. But if you're unsure about the PhD and really want to go to Haavahd and/or live in Boston, go to HMS. You'll make some people on this forum happy.

 

[BobA]

What I want to know is when did Harvard only cost 150K?

Living in Boston? Are you kidding? It's got to be closer to 200K.