Harvard NP vs HST vs Full ride to UMich

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tamale

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I got into both Harvard New Pathways and Harvard HST. They aren't giving me any merit scholarships just loans. UMichigan is giving me a full ride for all four years. Which should I choose? I know that Harvard has a better reputation but I will be coming out with close to $120,000 in loans. Is it worth it? And secondly, is New Pathways better than HST? While I do enjoy research and a very science oriented curriculum, I have been told that HST students are too stressed out. Thanks.

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tamale said:
I got into both Harvard New Pathways and Harvard HST. They aren't giving me any merit scholarships just loans. UMichigan is giving me a full ride for all four years. Which should I choose? I know that Harvard has a better reputation but I will be coming out with close to $120,000 in loans. Is it worth it? And secondly, is New Pathways better than HST? While I do enjoy research and a very science oriented curriculum, I have been told that HST students are too stressed out. Thanks.

You should go to UMichigan(full scholarship).
just my 2 cents :luck:
 
I don't know what the two classifications for Harvard are but all things being equal (will you be able to accomplish YOUR goals at either fine institution?) I would say take the full ride-just my opinion its worth what you paid for it
 
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UMich is an awesome schooll, so I would take the full ride there over Harvard any day.
 
When I interviewed at Harvard, all the NP people seemed to have a lot of fun and really enjoy their classmates, but commented that they didn't ever see the HST people because they were stressed out and busy. I would probably take the full ride, but I guess it depends more on what you hope to do one day.
 
Harvard is the only school that I would have gone to over a full-ride at another top school...so I'd say Harvard. I've posted why I was so impressed with Harvard on another thread that was comparing Mich, Harvard and I think JHU. Just my 2 cents.
 
beefballs said:
I don't know what the two classifications for Harvard are but all things being equal (will you be able to accomplish YOUR goals at either fine institution?) I would say take the full ride-just my opinion its worth what you paid for it
I agree. There would have to be some really major extenuating circumstance to convince me to give up a full ride to a school like U Mich and take on six-figure debt elsewhere. Just to be clear: I thought Harvard was great, and I'd love to go there....for residency, when THEY would be paying ME. ;)
 
tamale said:
I got into both Harvard New Pathways and Harvard HST. They aren't giving me any merit scholarships just loans. UMichigan is giving me a full ride for all four years. Which should I choose? I know that Harvard has a better reputation but I will be coming out with close to $120,000 in loans. Is it worth it? And secondly, is New Pathways better than HST? While I do enjoy research and a very science oriented curriculum, I have been told that HST students are too stressed out. Thanks.


I'm sorry but you'd have to be a fool not to take a full ride. Seriously, are you even contemplating this? Medical schools teach you pretty much all the same stuff. You take the same tests. Going to Harvard won't make you a better doctor. Not having any debt when you get out will make your life way more prosperous. Take the money.
 
michigan has a sterling reputation, particularly among residency directors. they also have top notch research opportunities. i think that in comparing the schools themselves, harvard is not worth the extra $120,000. if you have other reasons for preferring harvard though, such as location or particulars about the people or curricula, then it's a little trickier.

if you are super leaning toward harvard though, i have several friends in the NP program who love it and say they have plenty of free time to enjoy life...i know one person in the HST program, and he hates it - thinks it's the worst of MD and PhD together (being hardcore like MD/PhD but paying for it and not getting the extra degree). i think it depends on your personality type and what your end goals are. if you only want to be a clinician, i think the HST program is overboard. ut if you're really into quantitative stuff and think it would help out your career, then it's worth considering.

i also suggest that you revisit both places and see if you are way more obsessed with harvard...if not, go to michigan! :)
 
There should be no question in your mind between Michigan and New Pathways (both pretty standard programs). Follow the money. HST is another question. Their program is a lot different from pretty much anywhere else. My medical school will give me a terrific shot (connections and all that) at the residencies I want, but I probably would have picked HST if I had a choice. Obviously, it's not for everyone. If their system really appeals to you, then go for it. If not, you'd be a fool to turn down the cash.
 
two small considerations: HST kids do get a scholarship for half of tuition and they do pretty much get their pick of the litter in terms of residency.... though, i wouldn't recommend it to any non-engineering major, the math and science involved are pretty intense..
 
Go where you are happiest, whether that depends on $$ or not.
 
These threads are sucking the life out of me!
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Brainsucker said:
So don't read them.
HAHA...too bad there isn't an option to filter any threads in the forum list that contain "vs." in their name. :laugh:
 
I'd choose the new car behind door #4.

Just my $0.02 :thumbup:
 
Mateodaspy said:
two small considerations: HST kids do get a scholarship for half of tuition and they do pretty much get their pick of the litter in terms of residency.... though, i wouldn't recommend it to any non-engineering major, the math and science involved are pretty intense..

Thanks guys. Looks like most people lean towards a free ride to Umich. And I think I do get half of tuition paid for HST, but I'm still probably going to do 5 years there. As for residency matches, Harvard does really, really well. Everyone gets Brigham, MGH, or Stanford which are some of the top hospitals in the country. UMich doesn't even compare with Harvard in terms of residency matching. I don't know how I'll compare with other med students, so having the safety net of a good residency from a Harvard education does sound tempting...but so does a monetarily worry-free residency out of Umich.
 
tamale said:
Thanks guys. Looks like most people lean towards a free ride to Umich. And I think I do get half of tuition paid for HST, but I'm still probably going to do 5 years there. As for residency matches, Harvard does really, really well. Everyone gets Brigham, MGH, or Stanford which are some of the top hospitals in the country. UMich doesn't even compare with Harvard in terms of residency matching. I don't know how I'll compare with other med students, so having the safety net of a good residency from a Harvard education does sound tempting...but so does a monetarily worry-free residency out of Umich.

i would agree that no one's match list could compare to harvard's really! but you have to take into account that there are many people from the midwest at michigan who choose to stay in the midwest for residency. so there's quite a self-selection factor there in terms of where people end up for their residencies. i think that if you wanted to be at a top hospital on one of the coasts, you have a solid chance at achieving that going to michigan.
 
tamale said:
Thanks guys. Looks like most people lean towards a free ride to Umich. And I think I do get half of tuition paid for HST, but I'm still probably going to do 5 years there. As for residency matches, Harvard does really, really well. Everyone gets Brigham, MGH, or Stanford which are some of the top hospitals in the country. UMich doesn't even compare with Harvard in terms of residency matching. I don't know how I'll compare with other med students, so having the safety net of a good residency from a Harvard education does sound tempting...but so does a monetarily worry-free residency out of Umich.
Smart people go to Harvard. If you're smart, you'd go to harvard, too. Only us dumb ones go to UMich. Do you really want to be around dumb people for the next 4 years? I don't think so. Just go to Harvard.
 
happydays said:
Smart people go to Harvard. If you're smart, you'd go to harvard, too. Only us dumb ones go to UMich. Do you really want to be around dumb people for the next 4 years? I don't think so. Just go to Harvard.

And since I got rejected from UMich, I must be really really dumb... :p

To the OP: I realize there's a magic to the Harvard name, but University of Michigan is still plenty prestigious.... I just don't think there's any way that taking all that extra debt out is worth it...
 
Obviously, it's your call. I would take UMich full ride in a heartbeat (that's a HOUSE when you think of how much it will cost when all paid back...)

But a few considerations:

If you're not sure UMich is for you, maybe it isn't. I wasn't super-wowed by Harvard (wowed, but not enough to trump money elsewhere), largely because the students there seemed to have chosen for name.

At my interviews I asked the usual "why'd you come here?"

Michigan: I LOVED it, everyone was great, etc. etc.
Harvard: For the name (EVERY student told me this!!! Nobody said anything else! WTF?!)

If you are swayed by the reputation, totally go for it ... but I wouldn't be. Also, why second guess yourself? You did great enough to get a full ride at Umich and to get into Harvard! Why wouldn't you do great enough to get the residency you want?
 
If you want to go into academics, you should do HST. If you want to go into private practice, you should go to UMich. That's my opinion.

People are going on and on about the money. I wouldn't worry about it. It's only money, and you will pay off those loans no matter what path you pursue. Choose the school that will make you happiest and best fit your career goals.
 
First off,

Happy Days you are too cute with your posts and always make me laugh when you post your sarcasm about Umich. :p

Second off,

In the situation you are in, I'd go to UMich. Realize that both are top 10 schools although UMich's rankings have fallen slightly in the previous year. At any rate, they are both very very very very well known medical schools with a great reputation and great educational programs. Seeing that both are nearly on par as being on the same level, I wouldn't think that there would be a significant reason why not to go to UMich.

I have a family friend who's a 3rd year at UMich, transferred from another school, and she loves it from what I've been told. Since both are on par, I don't think that going to HMS is going to hold that much of a significant difference over Umich in terms of getting residency opportunities of choice.
 
I know HMS has a name and its a great place but a full ride to Umich...that choice for me is simple...Umich is right up there with Harvard and its in a less pretentious environment so take the scholarship graduate debt free and use that 100,000+ to buy yourself a boat...or whatever it is that really hits the spot with you...
 
I'm a third year med student. Take the full ride. UMich is plenty plenty good for research and clinical stuff. Also unless you really thrive on cutthroat intensity most people I've met seem happier there.

Being debt free is a nice freedom when you start choosing your career. Which is not to say debt won't be paid off -you're guaranteed a good job- but it's a huge pain in the a ss.
 
solitude said:
If you want to go into academics, you should do HST. If you want to go into private practice, you should go to UMich. That's my opinion.

People are going on and on about the money. I wouldn't worry about it. It's only money, and you will pay off those loans no matter what path you pursue. Choose the school that will make you happiest and best fit your career goals.

You can easily go into academics by going to Umich. That should not be a reason to go to HST over umich at all.
 
i'd like to be the lone dissenter here and say that the harvard name is worth more than $120k. at the end of the day, you're debts will be paid off, but going to hms means the rest of your lineage gets to go to harvard...that would be worth $120,000 to me. but then again, it might be this attitude that has kept me from having to have the privilege of picking between two awesome schools...
 
GasGuy2010 said:
You can easily go into academics by going to Umich. That should not be a reason to go to HST over umich at all.


Yeah, you can go into academics by going to UMich. But the connections gained by studying medicine at the most prestigious research institution in the world will go a lot farther. Name recognition goes a long way in academia. Harvard has it with everybody. UMich has it with some.

In my opinion, if you want to go into academia then the connections from Harvard will help a lot. They are invaluable. The choice of the OP is really one of money. It's only money. Do what will benefit your academic career the most, if that is your goal. If you are only planning on private practice, the Harvard connections will not be helpful, and are not worth the money.
 
etf said:
i'd like to be the lone dissenter here and say that the harvard name is worth more than $120k. at the end of the day, you're debts will be paid off, but going to hms means the rest of your lineage gets to go to harvard...that would be worth $120,000 to me. but then again, it might be this attitude that has kept me from having to have the privilege of picking between two awesome schools...

Seems most people here are saying the Harvard name is no where near the price of $120k. I'd agree with the most. I've met and worked with many HMS students & they basically teach themselves because profs are unavailable and disinterested. How's that worth $120k? A reputation? Pu-leez! As if going to UMich isn't going to get a person an excellent residency or something?

Guys, grow up here. Don't split hairs about "getting a great residency" - you're all going to do just fine. It isn't like going to Harvard gets you "the best" residencies and going anywhere else doesn't, and so your career and your life are then over because you didn't go to Harvard... Chill!

Take the free ride and be like Izze on Grey's Anatomy - no debt to worry about as you go through that great residency later on.
 
yeah, i agree that someone coming out of michigan won't have a problem getting into any residency, and that people in your field (other docs) really won't care. i'm just saying that the harvard name would afford you (and your progeny) some benefits that have nothing to do with medicine, because again, within the field no one's gonna care anyway...personally, that is worth a lot more than $120k...
 
solitude said:
But the connections gained by studying medicine at the most prestigious research institution in the world will go a lot farther. Name recognition goes a long way in academia. Harvard has it with everybody. UMich has it with some.
I'm guessing that people who went to medical school at places like, oh, say, OXFORD or CAMBRIDGE, which were famous research universities with medical schools long before Harvard even existed, might take issue with this statement. ;) FYI, Harvard is not the "most prestigious research institution in the world."
 
QofQuimica said:
I'm guessing that people who went to medical school at places like, oh, say, OXFORD or CAMBRIDGE, which were famous research universities with medical schools long before Harvard even existed, might take issue with this statement. ;) FYI, Harvard is not the "most prestigious research institution in the world."

Harvard is the most prestigious research institution in the world. Period. I have no connections to Harvard but if you travel, you'll know that that is the one name that stands out both among the public and in academia. The institutions in Britain are older, sure, but that has nothing to do with present-day prestige.
 
I'm in the same sitution, minus the HST option. Are you sure HMS isn't giving you any need-based money? They do have the unit-loan thing, but it depends on your EFC and still will be more expensive than UMich w/ scholarship...

I'll be revisiting both schools, and right now I'm very impressed with both of them. I have plenty of personal reasons in favor of Michigan that likely don't apply to you, so I'll focus on those that may matter: concerns over classmates, opportunities during medical school, residency options, and access to academic medicine.

As I haven't revisited, I can only go on what I've noticed at the interviews and through email w/ a very small minority of the class, but both seem to have awesome students. Interests outside of medicine, diverse backgrounds, really motivated and yet know how to have fun, etc. This is a big deciding factor for me, and should be for you as well. Revisits will help you with this more than anything else could.

Most people have covered all the "opportunities." HMS may have some that won't be available at UMich, but not many. You could easily fill your time at UofM with Galens, other student groups, an international trip, research for a summer or a year, shadowing physicians, relaxing in AA or at football games, etc. and still have plenty of things you didn't do but could have.

Match lists are hard to read. If your heart is set on an MGH or other east coast residency, go to HMS. If its set on a west coast residency, go to a school on the west unless you don't have that option, in that case go to HMS. If you simply think you'd "prefer" a coastal residency, but don't have your heart set on it, UMich can get you there. Especially more likely for you since you've already proven yourself w/ the scholarship offer. And as another said, ~50% of the UMich class is made of Michigan residents, and many of the others will be other midwesterners. A high percentage of them WANT to stay in the midwest (I have no problem with it, for example). They match into amazing specialties still, and may have had the option to go to a coastal residency, but they wanted to stay in the midwest. Those that do leave have gotten into good residencies on the coasts, check out the match list for yourself if you want. Basically, the desires of the students at each school are different. HMS will, I'll agree though, give you a better shot at top residencies. You (and I) have to decide if that insurance is worth the extra cash.

Academic medicine is a big goal of mine, and I know both schools can get you into it. On one hand, I realize HMS is going to be better at doing this. Students there simply have the opportunity to make more connections, associate with more leaders, get better LORs, and work with "better" researchers. This is where HMS shines, in my opinion. But I do think it's hard to compare just how big that difference is, you'd have to talk to someone who's spent 1+ years at BOTH schools to get that information, I'd think. And one thing I'm thinking is that not only will the decreased financial burden of Michigan make it easier to stick to the academic path (take a lower paying job), but also allows more freedom to seek those "extra" opportunities in med school (year-out research, international trips, maybe an MPH) that would be hard to do knowing the interest will just keep growing while you're taking longer to finish school.

PM me if you want more information or just to chat about the pros/cons of either choice again. Hope we'll see you at second look(s)!
 
no brainer-take the free ride at mich. do well there, get any residency, and save 150k. to an experienced internist like myself, it seems simple and obvious.
 
QofQuimica said:
I'm guessing that people who went to medical school at places like, oh, say, OXFORD or CAMBRIDGE, which were famous research universities with medical schools long before Harvard even existed, might take issue with this statement. ;) FYI, Harvard is not the "most prestigious research institution in the world."


I have to disagree with you. As a child of three generations of university professors (most in biomedical research), I have spent a lot of time around academia and I can tell you that the average academic considers the research at Harvard to be of higher quality than that at Oxford and Cambridge. I agree that Oxford and Cambridge are older and have obviously been doing research for a longer interval, but the research coming from these venerable institutions is not equal to that of Harvard. Oxford and Cambridge are, arguably, particularly weak in the sciences in the modern day (I'm talking the last 20 years or so). Medical research is particularly weak at Oxford and Cambridge relative to Harvard. Part of this has to do with HMS's huge size, but part of that is simply that medical care and medical research is of higher quality in the United States.

The bottom line is that the research at Harvard is not only better than that at any other institution in the world, but that the average academic considers it to be the most prestigious research institution in the world. Admittedly Cambridge has produced a lot of Nobelists. But in today's academia, Harvard trumps Cambridge.
 
solitude said:
I have to disagree with you. As a child of three generations of university professors (most in biomedical research), I have spent a lot of time around academia and I can tell you that the average academic considers the research at Harvard to be of higher quality than that at Oxford and Cambridge. I agree that Oxford and Cambridge are older and have obviously been doing research for a longer interval, but the research coming from these venerable institutions is not equal to that of Harvard. Oxford and Cambridge are, arguably, particularly weak in the sciences in the modern day (I'm talking the last 20 years or so). Medical research is particularly weak at Oxford and Cambridge relative to Harvard. Part of this has to do with HMS's huge size, but part of that is simply that medical care and medical research is of higher quality in the United States.

The bottom line is that the research at Harvard is not only better than that at any other institution in the world, but that the average academic considers it to be the most prestigious research institution in the world. Admittedly Cambridge has produced a lot of Nobelists. But in today's academia, Harvard trumps Cambridge.
Ah, so the disagreement here is because we aren't talking about the same thing. I was responding to the statement that Harvard is the most PRESTIGIOUS research university in the world, not that it is currently the TOP RATED research university in the world. (Even that is up for argument, because some of the world rankings do have Harvard in the top spot, while others don't. But all of them certainly rank it in the top ten.) I would argue that an institution's prestige is based upon more than just its current rank; if this were not so, then why is Wash U not more "prestigious" than say, Yale? I think a strong case can be made that legacy is a major component of prestige. Although Harvard is old and illustrious by American standards, it is a newcomer compared to the top European universities. And that is why I say that they are more "prestigious," even if we agree that their current ranking right now is below that of Harvard.
 
It is hard to believe, but it's so true that half of these beeeatchas on SDN can get bought out. In that case I'll give all you punkers 150,000 a year to sit in my backyard and take care of my crickets and ants. Sold! Busters.

Yo, Big hot tamale, put some sauce on yo' self and let it rip, go with gut, the heart, the soul, and der spirit--you big hot tamale, Let it rolll...


Social Kapital is priceless. homeboy! Think bout' da't!
 
Mr PluM said:
It is hard to believe, but it's so true that half of these beeeatchas on SDN can get bought out. In that case I'll give all you punkers 150,000 a year to sit in my backyard and take care of my crickets and ants. Sold! Busters.

Yo, Big hot tamale, put some sauce on yo' self and let it rip, go with gut, the heart, the soul, and der spirit--you big hot tamale, Let it rolll...


Social Kapital is priceless. homeboy! Think bout' da't!

:laugh: One of the funniest posts I've ever read!
 
Mr PluM said:
It is hard to believe, but it's so true that half of these beeeatchas on SDN can get bought out. In that case I'll give all you punkers 150,000 a year to sit in my backyard and take care of my crickets and ants. Sold! Busters.

Yo, Big hot tamale, put some sauce on yo' self and let it rip, go with gut, the heart, the soul, and der spirit--you big hot tamale, Let it rolll...


Social Kapital is priceless. homeboy! Think bout' da't!
not a matter of "being bought" it is a matter of opinion whether 120k is worth the added prestige. In a lot of scenarios prestige and .99 cents will get you a cup of coffee. I think that you can do anything from either institution-congratulations and let us know what you decide to do I am curious as to how this will play out.
 
beefballs said:
not a matter of "being bought" it is a matter of opinion whether 120k is worth the added prestige.

i can't imagine the prestige is the only factor in the OP's decision-making. OP, what qualities are most important to you in a med school (only you know this which is why all our arguments are of limited value here)? which school fits best with those values?

the one suggestion i do want to make is that you check out the class threads for hms and umich. this thread has quite of bit of rhetoric going on... on the class threads you may be able to talk to people who are actually making decisions similar to yours. (for example, i'm giving up 30K/year at case for harvard)

in the end, they're both great schools, and i don't think you can make a bad choice. good luck!
 
zer0el said:
Harvard is the most prestigious research institution in the world. Period. I have no connections to Harvard but if you travel, you'll know that that is the one name that stands out both among the public and in academia. The institutions in Britain are older, sure, but that has nothing to do with present-day prestige.

But WHO CARES????!!! For pete's sake - this is the same stupid argument about whether a school is ranked #1 or #2 as if it is going to be some HUGE detriment to choose #2 if it makes the person happier??

What is going to matter in 10 years - your happiness or how many trophies you have on the wall? If you want the trophies to make you happy then go ahead and buy the Harvard naming rights cause that's what you'll be doing giving up a full ride to Michigan. Except you aren't a stadium, and ticket sales won't pay that back. :laugh:
 
Six-figure debt is nothing to sneeze at, but Harvard HST isn't either. I think all of these posters that try to simplify it to just a $$$ issue are giving short-sighted guidance.

If you are looking to get into an academic professorship, start your own lab, or go into industry, pedigree is deeply important (You think someone from Merck will say "Oooh and ahhh" equally to both institutions? Definitely not). Within the medical community and outside of it, Harvard carries far more weight. When you get up to give a presentation to a general audience, when the introducer says Harvard, it holds more cache - anyone who says otherwise is not in touch with reality. Those beyond the limited medical community will always recognize Harvard as a top-tier institution and as sickening as it may seem, this is an advantage in the real world. Clearly, I'm making the assumption that the quality of education is comparable (which I believe to be true), that geography means little to you, that all other things are considered equal or negligible. Consider seriously what kind of career you're going for. Thousands of doctors climb their way out of debt somehow - so too can you if you choose Harvard. If it were me, I'd take Harvard HST and shoot for the moon.
 
When I read research articles or attend conferences I don't pay attention to the institution a given researcher comes from. In fact, I have no idea where a given scientist was educated. The only thing I know is whether he/she is an expert in the field because his/her research speaks for itself. When you and your colleagues are all at top-tier institutions name recognition is not such a significant factor as many on here would lead you to believe. Opportunities and collaboration abound at and between all the top schools.

But if you want to impress grandmama, the next door neighbor, and the dog down the street, Harvard will certainly do that for you.
 
tbo said:
Six-figure debt is nothing to sneeze at, but Harvard HST isn't either. I think all of these posters that try to simplify it to just a $$$ issue are giving short-sighted guidance.

If you are looking to get into an academic professorship, start your own lab, or go into industry, pedigree is deeply important (You think someone from Merck will say "Oooh and ahhh" equally to both institutions? Definitely not). Within the medical community and outside of it, Harvard carries far more weight. When you get up to give a presentation to a general audience, when the introducer says Harvard, it holds more cache - anyone who says otherwise is not in touch with reality. Those beyond the limited medical community will always recognize Harvard as a top-tier institution and as sickening as it may seem, this is an advantage in the real world. Clearly, I'm making the assumption that the quality of education is comparable (which I believe to be true), that geography means little to you, that all other things are considered equal or negligible. Consider seriously what kind of career you're going for. Thousands of doctors climb their way out of debt somehow - so too can you if you choose Harvard. If it were me, I'd take Harvard HST and shoot for the moon.
I agree that there are significant differences between the HST and NP programs, including financial and curricular. But whether that's the best choice for the OP's career goals is precisely what we don't know. Does the OP even want a career in research? I don't get that impression, actually. When someone says they "enjoy" research, that's not the same as saying that this person is dedicated to a career in research. I "enjoy" practicing yoga, and I "enjoy" posting on SDN, but I'm not going to make a career out of doing those things, you follow? I also agree with autoimmunity that graduating from HST is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. If you have a lot of creative ideas, publish your work frequently, and get a lot of grant money coming in, those things are going to impress people in academia more than where you went to school.
 
etf said:
duh...that distinction belongs to berkeley :)

GO BEARS!

Go bears... and I would say go to Haaaavard. How many times have you heard so and so doctor is "Harvard trained" (and I think it does help with his/her reputation). I think that may help your career a lot. Think of it as an investment.
 
QofQuimica said:
I agree that there are significant differences between the HST and NP programs, including financial and curricular. But whether that's the best choice for the OP's career goals is precisely what we don't know. Does the OP even want a career in research? I don't get that impression, actually. When someone says they "enjoy" research, that's not the same as saying that this person is dedicated to a career in research. I "enjoy" practicing yoga, and I "enjoy" posting on SDN, but I'm not going to make a career out of doing those things, you follow? I also agree with autoimmunity that graduating from HST is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. If you have a lot of creative ideas, publish your work frequently, and get a lot of grant money coming in, those things are going to impress people in academia more than where you went to school.

Ah yes, but one assumption that you're making is that receiving grant money is independent of institution. I agree that your individual reputation is linked to creative ideas, publishing and grant dollars. But being able to carry out your proposal and get it done is inherently linked to the institution you are at. One of the key factors in junior faculty grants or starting grants (R01s, K08/K23 awards) is what facilities are available to you to do your research - things like research space, biostatistical support, information technology infrastructure, specialty centers of excellence. If you put in a grant on the pharmacogenomics of cardiovascular drugs at an institution without a genomic center or any established genomic testing facilities, chances are you're not going to see those dollars come in, regardless of creative ideas or publishing lists. Harvard excels at providing this kind of academic infrastructure, both for research and for clinical training. It's not coincidental that they are the highest NIH funded medical center in the country. I propose that it is due to the institution - on both reputation and on facilities. Any of the K awards require that having qualified mentors is critical to receiving the award. An institution with tons of NIH awards/dollars already being granted will likely have more qualified NIH mentors. I have no doubt in my mind that Harvard - by nature of it's reputation and its facilities - gives you a better chance at receiving grant money.

Harvard opens doors. It's cozy and warm to think that Harvard vs other top-tier schools are the same, but I really don't think so.
 
QofQuimica said:
Ah, so the disagreement here is because we aren't talking about the same thing. I was responding to the statement that Harvard is the most PRESTIGIOUS research university in the world, not that it is currently the TOP RATED research university in the world. (Even that is up for argument, because some of the world rankings do have Harvard in the top spot, while others don't. But all of them certainly rank it in the top ten.) I would argue that an institution's prestige is based upon more than just its current rank; if this were not so, then why is Wash U not more "prestigious" than say, Yale? I think a strong case can be made that legacy is a major component of prestige. Although Harvard is old and illustrious by American standards, it is a newcomer compared to the top European universities. And that is why I say that they are more "prestigious," even if we agree that their current ranking right now is below that of Harvard.


I personally don't put a lot of stock in rankings, and I don't think that most people should. I know that the general public does, but as many many people have explained before, slight differences in ranking mean nothing. When I refer to Harvard as the most prestigious research institution, I mean that academics today respect the quality of research at Harvard moreso than they do at other universities, including Oxford and Cambridge. Yes it is a newcomer compared to the other top European universities, but, at least it is my opinion, the research is better and is more respected by academics. Thus, Harvard is the most prestigious university in the world. I bet that if you sampled 100 scholars, the majority of them would hold the research at Harvard in higher esteem than comparable research at Oxbridge.

In passing, I note that today, at least in the sciences, the higher prestige afforded Harvard than Oxford and Cambridge seems to be warranted. I can't remember the last time that I saw a breakthrough Nature/Science paper from one of those universities. In my opinion, the best biomedical research in Europe is coming out of Germany right now.
 
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