Harvard NP vs HST vs Full ride to UMich

[solitude]

Ah yes, but one assumption that you're making is that you can get grant money independent of institution. I agree that your individual reputation is linked to creative ideas, publishing and grant dollars. But being able to carry this out and actually get this done is inherently linked to the institution you do it at. One of the key factors in junior faculty grants or starting grants (R01s, K08/K23 awards) is what facilities are available to you to do your research - things like research space, biostatistical support, information technology infrastructure, specialty centers of excellence. If you put in a grant on the pharmacogenomics of cardiovascular drugs at an institution without a genomic center or any established genomic testing facilities, chances are you're not going to see those dollars come in, regardless of creative ideas or publishing lists. Harvard excels at providing this kind of academic infrastructure, both for research and for clinical training. It's not coincidental that they are the highest NIH funded medical center in the country. I propose that it is due to the institution - on both reputation and on facilities. Any of the K awards require that having qualified mentors is critical to receiving the award. An institution with tons of NIH awards/dollars already being granted will likely have more qualified NIH mentors. I have no doubt in my mind that Harvard - by nature of it's reputation and its facilities - gives you a better chance at receiving grant money.

Harvard opens doors. It's cozy and warm to think that Harvard vs other top-tier schools are the same, but I really don't think so.

Well put. The last two sentences sum up the issue here. As for the OP, if you don't want go into academics, this is all a moot point.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TriniToDeBone]

Is this post meant to make us drool - or do you really want advice? (just kidding)

I've heard UMich is very good so take the free ride. Unless of course Harvard can meet you half way - then I'll say think of the connections that you can make and the doors that will open up easier by just being a "Harvard Doctor".

 

[Orthodoc40]

When I read research articles or attend conferences I don't pay attention to the institution a given researcher comes from. In fact, I have no idea where a given scientist was educated. The only thing I know is whether he/she is an expert in the field because his/her research speaks for itself. When you and your colleagues are all at top-tier institutions name recognition is not such a significant factor as many on here would lead you to believe. Opportunities and collaboration abound at and between all the top schools.

But if you want to impress grandmama, the next door neighbor, and the dog down the street, Harvard will certainly do that for you.

That's just it. If you find the cure for cancer, or HIV or the secret to immortality, are people going to blow you off because you didn't go to Harvard?!!

 

[SailCrazy]

I'd say definitely go to Harvard. You'd be a fool not to do so...











... and hopefully some of that scholarhip money you give up will find its way over to me!
(aka, see you in Ann Arbor! Are you coming for 2nd look weekend?)

 

[infiniti]

No doubt that Harvard is a ridiculously prestigious school. But if you guys are arguing about the quality of research, I do be careful to say Harvard is superior to every school in the nation. It is a fact to say some schools have shaped medical science more than havard in the past few decades. Gone are the days when harvard holds a monopoly on medical research in the United States.

The great thing about living in the U. S of A is that the quality of medical education is just through the roof. There isn't much variation in the quality of medical education between American schools. Now research is another thing. Top schools generally have much better research than other schools. Differentiating between quality of research between most of the top schools is very tricky. For instance, Harvard recieves a lot more than other schools but grant/faculty is much lower than that of some other top schools. Harvard also includes grants recieved through joint afiliations in the calculation of its total grant money.

On the other hand, some relatively smaller institutions are pulling in ridiculous amounts of grant money and the per faculty grant is very high. I do say most of the top schools will get you wherever Harvard can get you. The only added bonus you get from Harvard is the name recognition and that is limited to lay people as some schools are just as recognized in medicine as that of Harvard's.

That being said Harvard is an awesome institution and no one should try to take away from that. You just have to decide if going to Harvard is worth 120K to you.

I also agree with Q about Oxford and Cambridge being the most prestigious institutions in the world. Most kids around the world inspire to those schools. As someone who grew up all over the place, I can tell you that Oxford and Cambridge are mentioned than Harvard. In terms of quality, these schools are all great, but I would choose Harvard over the other two.

I was in almost the same situation a few months ago. I was deciding between Harvard, UCSF, Penn and UCLA. I eliminated Harvard from my list first because I just didn't see myself in Boston. I also didn't like their teaching style. I know any of the remaining three schools will get me where I need to be. Try basing your decision on what you like, not what others think of the school (especially if the schools you are considering are well recognized in the medical field).

 

[jack.bauer]

Don't go to a school just for the prestige, especially at the cost of $110 k in loans. Harvard itself doesn't open doors. Like they say at Harvard undergrad, the experience and opportunities are entirely up to you. If you go to Harvard with the expectation that life will somehow be easy and you will automatically get into your top residency choice and become a great doctor, then you are going for the wrong reason. I know of plenty Harvard educated doctors who aren't better than any other doctors and plenty of non Harvard educated doctors who are some of the best doctors in the world.
Go to 2nd look weekends and then decide from the following factors:

1) do you click with your classmates? (harvard picks certain people. do you think you would feel out of place with them?)
2) does the institution have the research resources (if you are interested in doing research there)?
3) the cost (will having loans stress you out?)
4) Do you like the curriculum? (NP is changing from last year, so it will be the first time for many faculty. UMich faculty has 4-5 yrs of experience, plus a crazy cool online histology lab. can't beat that anywhere!)
5) Do you like the location? Any relatives or friends there or will you be alone?
6) would you like to do residency in that location? (you will make connections at the hospitals during 3rd/4th year, and they can help you get into those hospitals for residency)
7) can you contribute something to the class?

Anyways, don't do it for the prestige. Your fellow doctors won't care (if anything, they will treat you with contempt rather than respect), and neither will your patients. Good luck, wish I could be in your position.

 

[Dr.MD]

Don't go to a school just for the prestige, especially at the cost of $110 k in loans. Harvard itself doesn't open doors. Like they say at Harvard undergrad, the experience and opportunities are entirely up to you. If you go to Harvard with the expectation that life will somehow be easy and you will automatically get into your top residency choice and become a great doctor, then you are going for the wrong reason. I know of plenty Harvard educated doctors who aren't better than any other doctors and plenty of non Harvard educated doctors who are some of the best doctors in the world.
Go to 2nd look weekends and then decide from the following factors:

1) do you click with your classmates? (harvard picks certain people. do you think you would feel out of place with them?)
2) does the institution have the research resources (if you are interested in doing research there)?
3) the cost (will having loans stress you out?)
4) Do you like the curriculum? (NP is changing from last year, so it will be the first time for many faculty. UMich faculty has 4-5 yrs of experience, plus a crazy cool online histology lab. can't beat that anywhere!)
5) Do you like the location? Any relatives or friends there or will you be alone?
6) would you like to do residency in that location? (you will make connections at the hospitals during 3rd/4th year, and they can help you get into those hospitals for residency)
7) can you contribute something to the class?

Anyways, don't do it for the prestige. Your fellow doctors won't care (if anything, they will treat you with contempt rather than respect), and neither will your patients. Good luck, wish I could be in your position.

I agree that it is up to the OP to decide what school is the best fit for him (even if that means it is not Harvard) and that you can get an excellent education at both schools, but I have a few proints:

1. Why would his fellow doctors treat a Harvard doctor with "contempt" just because he or she went there!? (Is it jealousy?)

2. $110 K in loans sounds like a monster amount at first (and may take a while to pay back), but you need to think of this as an investment. How many doctors have you heard about that had defaulted on loans?

3. I think although the patients wont say it, they would probably (even subconsciously) have much respect for a "Harvard doc".

 

[infiniti]

3. I think although the patients wont say it, they would probably (even subconsciously) have much respect for a "Harvard doc".[/QUOTE]

As they would have for someone who went to Johns Hopkins, Stanford, Yale and even Berkeley school of medicine.

Name most schools with a good football or basketball team, put school of medicine behind the name and I will guarantee you a lot of patients will respect them.

FACTS-

1)Most patients will respect their doctor regardless of where they went to school.

2) The vast majority of patients will never ask you or find out where you went to school. Even if this were the case, the place you did your residency is waaaaaaay more important than where you went to medical school.

 

[Dr.MD]

As they would have for someone who went to Johns Hopkins, Stanford, Yale and even Berkeley school of medicine.

Name most schools with a good football or basketball team, put school of medicine behind the name and I will guarantee you a lot of patients will respect them.

FACTS-

1)Most patients will respect their doctor regardless of where they went to school.

2) The vast majority of patients will never ask you or find out where you went to school. Even if this were the case, the place you did your residency is waaaaaaay more important than where you went to medical school.

I agree with #1 and #2, but Harvard is, in my opinion, in a league of its own. If it is any other brand name med school, I would rather take the scholarship. Also, there is no Berkeley school of medicine (if you are serious).

 

[satcool]

I think ultimately the decision should come down to your own preferences. Both schools train great physicians. If you are interested in going into academic medicine or ultra-competitive specialties, I don't think anyone can argue that Harvard's reputation is unparalleled. I was just looking up Harvard's match list-it is pretty incredible http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3463668&postcount=62

 

[evert]

wht the heck are you thinking??????GO TO HAVARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[lexy10]

Take the full ride....you can always go to Harvard for residency...and your full ride is at a GREAT school. I can say Harvard is my first choice for schooling, but I would rather be able to do what I want when I get out of school, than feeling pressured to take on a career that I am less interested in due to the amount in loans I'd be forced to take out. I have heard from so many current doctors "go to the cheapest school" and I have heard from a few who when to expensive schools that they were forced into specialties that paid more than to focus where their hearts lay.

Price is a consideration, and I believe many overestimate your earning capacity in certain specialties. I speak from experience. My father (a transplant surgeon) didn't pay off his schooling (undergrad plus medical from in-state in Texas) until his mid-forties. That is (needless to say) a high paying field of medicine.

Another consideration is WHERE you want to practice when all is said and done. You will NOT make a lot of money in Boston or another "prestigious" medical center. They pay you in prestige (again saw this play out with my father's professional life and heard it from other doctors in Boston at MGH, Brighams, and Tufts NEMC).

Just food for thought.

My vote is full ride.

 

[jjmack]

I haven't read the whole threat, but I have a few questions. What do yoiu plan on going into? If it's a high paying speciality then I'd go to harvard. Paying off loans won't be a big deal then (however, granted I understand your career path may change.) Also is money a big issue? ie will parents or rich relatives help pay if you don't take the full ride? Don't under estimate how the location and feel you have are important. Med school is hard enough you don't want to be in a place you aren't happy. Sometimes the small things make school more bareable.

 

[Art]

The point has been raised that the Harvard name has greater prestige than Michigan. This is certainly true among the general public. However, in the field of academic medicine both Michigan and Harvard have tremendous prestige. If you desire a career in academic medicine, both schools will provide the prestige factor. For example, the head of the Human Genome Project, Francis Collins, was recruited from Michigan.

With regards to resources for doing research, both schools offer excellent options. As an individual student you will only be working in one lab with one mentor. It is important to be at a major research institution, but you will not have access to all of Harvard's 1.171 million dollars of research money, just as you will not have access to all of Michigan's 315 million dollars. Both institutions are well funded and both have excellent core facilities, outside speakers etc.

 

[Medikit]

In your shoes I would definitely do HST, but since you're not certain I'm not sure that's the best thing for you. I say go to U Mich.

 

[huknows00]

By the fact that Harvard is usually one of only two school on this forum seen mentioned in the sentence "... vs. full ride to Michigan (Wash U, Columbia, insert amazing school here", and that so many people bother to click on the link and read/post on this thread, proves that the decision is not as trivial as some would suggest.

Obviously the debt situation cannot be overlooked, but sometimes it is talked about in a hand-waving manner here. HST, for example, will give you two RA stipends worth ~13k each, decreasing your debt from the maximum of ~96K to ~70k. Now, that's still a lot of money but will be what people will shell out for a nice CAR - a realistic option for professionals like ourselves after we enter the workforce for a while. For me, I'd rather slap a Harvard sticker on my Honda Accord and tell the guys driving Mercedes SLK to kiss my ass. Joking aside though, the HST curriculum and the option to stay in Boston would make the "sacrifice" well worth it.

For some people, it may not be worth it. For the OP, the fact that you're even entertaining the idea of paying extra 100K to go to Harvard over another amazing school means that there is something special about Harvard (be it prestige, location, curriculum or whatever) for you. I'd say go with your gut, and remember a Mercedes can last 15 years, but going somewhere you will be happy lasts a lifetime.

 

[MoxieDO]

I got into both Harvard New Pathways and Harvard HST. They aren't giving me any merit scholarships just loans. UMichigan is giving me a full ride for all four years. Which should I choose? I know that Harvard has a better reputation but I will be coming out with close to $120,000 in loans. Is it worth it? And secondly, is New Pathways better than HST? While I do enjoy research and a very science oriented curriculum, I have been told that HST students are too stressed out. Thanks.

Damn!!! you must be smart, good job!

as a person who is deeply in debt, I would suggest that you take a full ride. About all you are going to loose out on is a sweatshirt that says "Hi, I went to Harvard." and will be 120,000 richer. as long as you do well at your full ride school you will more than likely get into an awesome residency. going to a big name school wont help you get into a great residency, only your performance there will. best of luck

 

[huknows00]

There is truth to what the above poster said, but don't forget a tuition "full ride" dosen't include living expenses, books, health insurance etc. The OP is going to have debt even if he/she goes to Michigan, and considering Harvard (NP and HST) maximum unit loan burden is 24,000 for this entering class, the OP probably has previous debt contributing to the 120K figure. So, the difference is not 120k vs zero, the actual difference can be a lot smaller (esp. with HST).

Michigan has its merits, and Harvard is definitely not a free pass to success, but don't choose solely based on money.

 

[pslee]

if you graduate from harvard med, you could pay all the debt within one year with your salary. Just go to harvard, you won't regret.