Harvard vs. UPenn Full Ride

[Clarissa]

Hello,

Since these posts are getting popular, I decided to add another to the list. Gaye Sheffler called me on Friday and said that there's a real strong chance that I could get my scholarship at Penn increased from a half to full tuition.
Before then, I had barely decided on HMS as a school to go to, based on the idea that there would be more opportunities there for me.
Now, I still maintain that there are more opportunities for me there, but how much are those opportunities worth? Is the 120K in debt going to be worth it?
I'm having a tough time making a decision, and I'm wondering what you guys think. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks!

C

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[Scooby Doo]

Go to Penn...Penn is amazing...And that much money couldn't even make me go to Harvard (ps...i am speaking without seeing Harvard...but once you get in those top 3 to 10 schools..it becomes harder to distinguish and you should look at other factors: city, money, and curriculum)..

 

[rpames]

Harvard is nice but does it really make a difference besides the name. No one will know where you went after you get out anyway. Besides how in their right mind would thumb their nose at Penn?

Wouldn't it be nice to not have to worry about paying back $120,000?

 

[Esco]

Wow...why is this even a question??????!!!!! (unless you have family in the area) I THINK Penn can offer anything Harvard can...except for $120,000.

 

[The Fly]

Clarissa-

A good friend of mine had the exact same problem as you -- received the full tuition from Penn and (of course) nothing from HMS. After a week or so of deliberations (back in March), she decided that the absolute best way to go was Penn and we're both going to be there in the fall.

Before thinking about this any more read the following article <a href="http://http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/04/28/interview/index.html" target="_blank">Horrible Harvard</a>

My interview there was almost as big a debaucle. Read it and tell us what you think!

PENN PENN PENN!!!!! :wink:

 

[ValleyGal]

I would love to read the article but it doesn't exist!!! (And I would go to penn -- the two schools are comparable, but one is free!!!!)

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by GG16:
•Clarissa-

A good friend of mine had the exact same problem as you -- received the full tuition from Penn and (of course) nothing from HMS. After a week or so of deliberations (back in March), she decided that the absolute best way to go was Penn and we're both going to be there in the fall.

Before thinking about this any more read the following article <a href="http://http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/04/28/interview/index.html" target="_blank">Horrible Harvard</a>

My interview there was almost as big a debaucle. Read it and tell us what you think!

PENN PENN PENN!!!!! :wink: •••••That article didn't prove much to me (from when I read it a long time ago). She just is a whiner who had a rough time. She was egotistical etc etc...

 

[Clarissa]

Thanks for all of the replies.

I have no doubt that the quality of Penn's medical education is the same as HMS, but my concerns with opportunities are with regards to opportunities outside of medicine.

At HMS, for instance, the lax schedule allows you to do things outside of class, either in the lab, in the community, or wherever you please. Also, you have the chance to take classes at any of the other institutions affiliated with Harvard, so you can take classes at the divinity school, business school, public health, etc...

At Penn, they don't have many of those opportunities, in that their public health school is in its nascent stages, there is no divinity school, and there's not a great policy school either. Plus, given the schedule, it's tough to do much outside of school. In talking to students there, their afternoons are pretty much all taken up, even when they are supposed to be free.

I am not sure what precisely my career path will be, but I am pretty sure that it will go beyond medicine. I love medicine, but I see it as a platform to bigger and better things.

Basically, the bottom line as I see it is a question between money and opportunity. How does one value life chances and potential?

Let's keep the discussion going,

C

 

[nap]

I think for people for whom money is not an issue, as in, theyll be paying for med school without loans, then having a scholarship should factor less into your decision. From my understanding, Harvard has a much easier schedule and you will have a lot more time to do other things outside of school. So, if you dont care about the money so much, then go to Harvard,if it suits you more, and it sounds like it does. I dont think turning down Penn's full ride is worth it if youre going to have to pay back 150,000 in loans for Harvard.

 

[The Fly]

For me, the following made a great deal of sense
•••quote:••• from <a href="http://http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/04/28/interview/index.html" target="_blank">Horrible Harvard</a>•
I can't really blame Harvard, though. Mythic institutions often get by on their status -- playing by reprehensible rules because no one dares call them on it. Celebrated corporations often use their reputations as shields protecting them from culpability. And when a brand name becomes a refuge from which to misbehave, a motto of "veritas" turns into nothing more than a cheesy advertising slogan slapped on everything from brochures to sweat shirts to coffee mugs. But this sense of entitlement -- this inflated sense of self-importance -- can be terribly dangerous. Because once you buy into it, you, too, must live in the realm of hypocrisy. •••••

I think that if you examine the appeal of harvard that a lot of it is a mystique that can't be readily quantified. I think that for some it's a perfect fit -- but for others (and just as many may fall into this group), HMS is selected merely because of the name that it confers -- a validation that some people need for any variety of reasons. The reality is that with their very independent curriculum, the student that does well at HMS is one who doesn't need that much supervision/lecture time and who is ready for all the SDL (Self directed learning) that goes on there. . .

 

[The Fly]

Oh, let's not forget that Penn has their entire campus within blocks of the hospital/medical school. At HMS, you're orphaned in Boston -- a little bit of a trek ( &gt; 30 min on the 'T' or the less-than-dependable shuttle they offer) to Cambridge. And, honestly, outside from the MFA and the mediocre undergrad institions in the immediate area (e.g. Simmons, Wentworth, Northeastern), there isn't much going on in the Longwood area -- it's kinda barren -- few restaurants, etc.

Although west philly isn't the west village, there is a lot more to do there than in the longwood area. Believe me!

 

[omores]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Clarissa:
•
I am not sure what precisely my career path will be, but I am pretty sure that it will go beyond medicine. I love medicine, but I see it as a platform to bigger and better things.

Basically, the bottom line as I see it is a question between money and opportunity. How does one value life chances and potential?

•••••You've made some excellent points about the opportunities that Harvard offers you, but don't underestimate the opportunities that a heavy level of debt will take away from you as well. Debt has an insidious way of getting you to rethink your plans and scale back your dreams. Before long, financial payoff becomes a big factor in the future you envision for yourself.

I've overheard several conversations among residents at the hospital here. Even though they'll likely all earn salaries that will allow them to pay off their loans eventually, you'd never know it from the way they talk. They seem to be struggling under enormous burdens, and it makes them value earnings potential over quality of life -- theirs or their patients'.

And I've seen it in myself, too. When I opened the envelope telling me I'd gotten a free medical education, I began to completely rethink my future career. I realized I could practice in fields or locations that might not be so rumunerative but would suit me better. I began to think that it would be possible to explore that synergy between visual art and medicine after all. I began to envision a totally different kind of medical practice for myself.

And the scary thing was that all those dreams had been dormant until I got the scholarship letter. I hadn't realized the extent to which the notion of debt had made me rein in my imagination.

 

[Clarissa]

[/qb][/QUOTE]You've made some excellent points about the opportunities that Harvard offers you, but don't underestimate the opportunities that a heavy level of debt will take away from you as well. Debt has an insidious way of getting you to rethink your plans and scale back your dreams. Before long, financial payoff becomes a big factor in the future you envision for yourself.[QB][/QUOTE]

Omores,

You make a great point, and it's something that I have considered as well. You are right--too often, dreams and career plans must be reconsidered due to financial restrictions. The "opportunity" to not have debt would be a considerable one.
If this is one of your deciding factors, are you sure what you want to do once you get out of medical school? If you are not, how do you plan to explore various fields to see where you will fit in? I understand how the lack of debt would let you try different career paths, but I am having difficulty imagining how I would know which career path to go down.
If I knew exactly what I wanted to do, it would be a simple choice. But how do you, and others similar to you, (if you don't know what you want to do with your lives), plan to figure it out? My fear is that I would blindly go in one direction, and then end up wasting time, energy, and money acquiring degrees that I wouldn't end up using. How are others hoping to deal with this concern?

Thanks,

C

 

[Incendiary]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Clarissa:
•
Omores,

You make a great point, and it's something that I have considered as well. You are right--too often, dreams and career plans must be reconsidered due to financial restrictions. The "opportunity" to not have debt would be a considerable one.
If this is one of your deciding factors, are you sure what you want to do once you get out of medical school? If you are not, how do you plan to explore various fields to see where you will fit in? I understand how the lack of debt would let you try different career paths, but I am having difficulty imagining how I would know which career path to go down.
If I knew exactly what I wanted to do, it would be a simple choice. But how do you, and others similar to you, (if you don't know what you want to do with your lives), plan to figure it out? My fear is that I would blindly go in one direction, and then end up wasting time, energy, and money acquiring degrees that I wouldn't end up using. How are others hoping to deal with this concern?

Thanks,

C•••••I wouldn't be so concerned about "wasting time" pursuing other degrees and stuff. Extra knowledge and life experiences will only help you in whatever other endeavors you choose. Also, life isn't a race to the top, so don't worry about spending more time doing other stuff that won't necessarily be related to what you'll be doing in the future. Energy, from the sound of it, you have plenty of to spare as well. And money? If you go to Penn, you won't need to worry about that (as much) for a little while.

One thing I'm starting to realize in my discussions with others who have been faced with this and similar choices is that there's no blanket "right answer." It's a highly individual decision to make, and for some people, the better thing is to go with the money. For others, the better choice is to go with the "more prestigious" school.

However, it seems to me that the general consensus is that while debt will play a factor in your future career path, it won't be so terrible that you can't pursue what you're most passionate about. And while the "better" school will sound nicer to some people, you'll be able to go anywhere you want regardless of which school you choose. So basically, pick the school that you think you'll enjoy most, for whatever reason(s). (Don't pick Harvard just because you think it will enable you to take Divinity School classes, though. The Div School is VERY far away. Unless you've been set on taking those classes for your whole life, I can guarantee you that you will never take a single class there in your time at HMS.)

 

[Hopkins2010]

Penn and Harvard are comparable quality schools. This is a no-brainer in my opinion. Penn all the way.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Are you paying for this Clarrissa? or are you taking out loans? This might help a little if you tell us this...

I am not sure about this, but "free time" is equal to "not learning as much"...is this not true?

"free time" = Time NOT in lecture where you NEED TO SPEND YOUR OWN TIME LEARNING!!!
SCREW THAT! I would much rather spend 8 hours in lecture, go home, get wasted, and not worry about other stuff. I am assuming you are talking about the NP program at Harvard. Don't kid yourself. Free time doesn't really mean free time. It means "independent study"....you aren't going to have Free "FREE TIME"...it's going to be Lock Down "free time"...

 

[omores]

Clarissa:

No, I really have no idea what I will end up doing once I finish. I'm in a state of contented confusion -- and the financial situation helps, since I don't feel I have to nail something down immediately. The exploring just seems to happen as I go -- I can't say what's guiding me, but I'm definitely swimming towards something rather than floundering aimlessly (most of the time). If pressed, I'd say that what's influencing me is not ready-made opportunities I've taken advantage of but rather the people around me.

Medical school is going to offer you a wealth of things to explore: there will be all kinds of people doing all kinds of things, and you will naturally gravitate toward some and away from others. Just make sure to pay attention to your reactions.

Yes, it's valuable to have concrete options, like the existing affiliations Harvard has with other schools. But I think it's even more important to be in an environment that's conducive to exploration. For me, this would mean an open-minded administration and a critical mass of creative, iconoclastic students. That would probably be all I needed to start forging my own opportunities. What would it be for you?

 

[MiamiMarmot]

penn, that's my vote.

 

[Peter Parker]

Clarissa,
I always root for the underdog and believe the perennial winner should be toppled every once in awhile. I favor Penn, because they value you more and they're the underdog trying to topple Harvard. The hallowed halls of Harvard are not worth a hundred thousand dollars. Be different.

 

[brickmanli]

This is such a difficult choice. I wish I was making it.

When I pick schools, I take the surroundings into consideration. I don't think the area around UPenn is as safe as Cambridge.

 

[sorrento]

Clarissa, you have a wonderful choice. I would go with Penn. They want you enough to double your scholarship, the students there are interesting and happy, and the whole university is open to you. If you're concerned about the lack of divinity school, remember that Penn has one of the best programs in Bioethics in the country (I know it's not the same as a divinity school, but it at least means there are people interested ethical/moral/spiritual issues as well.) Add to that world-class business, law, and nursing schools and a city rich with history that is also undergoing a great urban revival.

Sure, you will be sacrificing what you might have done at Harvard. But if you went to Harvard, you would be giving up the chance to do what you might have done at Penn, plus the financial freedom to pursue, without strings, whatever it is you find you love.

 

[The Fly]

I can just feel the PENN love in this forum! :wink:
(props to all your pro-penn posters)

Keep it going!

 

[UCSFallthway]

Hey Clarrisa,

I would go to Harvard. I think its the most beautiful campus I've seen from all my interviews...and the curriculum and the societies are amazing. The students all seemed really stress free, fun and energized. Boston is probably a much nicer place to live than Penn anyways....i never visited penn...but from what i hear, its not all that.

 

[The Fly]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by UCSFallthway:
•Hey Clarrisa,

I would go to Harvard. I think its the most beautiful campus I've seen from all my interviews...and the curriculum and the societies are amazing. The students all seemed really stress free, fun and energized. Boston is probably a much nicer place to live than Penn anyways....i never visited penn...but from what i hear, its not all that.•••••With all due respect, UCSFallthway, it doesn't sound like you've spent much time in either Boston or Philly; having spent a great deal of time in both (I now live in Boston), I can say with total confidence that while Boston may be a great place to do your undergrad -- it's not all that it's cracked up to be. It's a city that is 85% as expensive as NYC with 1/9th of the benefits -- a very socially conservative place where there is precious little diversity.

Granted HMS is a beautiful campus -- that cannot be disputed -- but there is very little to do in the immediate area except go to hospitals -- it is a socially dead place. Furthermore, like I said, it's a major trek to cambridge since the T is so damn awful as far as public transportation is concerned.

Phila is not as aesthetically pleasing as Boston, and not as glamourous -- this is also true -- but the cost of living is SO much better and you're very close to NYC (1-1.5 hrs by public transit).

The bottom line is after working at HMS for almost a year, I have been less than impressed -- the place tries to excuse mediocrity with its name and precedent and is less (or not at all) concerned with keeping people mentally healthy.

Remember that the medical school has had like 2-3 suicides per decade since the 70s -- in 1999 (may be have been '98 or '00) during commencement, one of the first year blew her brains out in Countway (the library). Maybe I am wrong, but you just don't hear about these things happening nearly as frequently at other schools . . .

 

[Coalboy]

•••quote:•••Remember that the medical school has had like 2-3 suicides per decade since the 70s -- in 1999 (may be have been '98 or '00) during commencement, one of the first year blew her brains out in Countway (the library). Maybe I am wrong, but you just don't hear about these things happening nearly as frequently at other schools . . . ••••Hmmm, there's an image I didn't need. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I would go to Penn. I liked it a lot when I interviewed, but was waitlisted. Can't say much of anything about Harvard, as I didn't apply.

 

[Peter Parker]

Have you settled for one or the other, Clarissa? Or are you taking it down to the wire until tomorrow? :wink: