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has med school gotten alot easier to get accepted into?

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by godfather, Dec 7, 2001.

  1. godfather

    godfather Member
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    Man i don't know whether i'm jealous or not but after talking to some people and reading some threads in the premed site it seems like getting accepted into med school is a whole lot easier than it was 4 years ago. I've noticed a number of people claiming to get into schools with like 3.3s and basically 8's on the mcat. Hell the DO schools seem like they basically have no standards any more. I mean i kid you not i know a number of people with like 3.0's and 20 - 24's combined scores on the mcat that aren't minorties that are getting like multiple acceptances into DO schools this year(and it's not like 1 or 2 people but like a substanial number). Its almost like if you have a pulse you can get into a DO school. I'm not saying these guys are going to make poor physicians(they're probably going to be excellent) it's just that i kind of resent that i had to work so hard and still my admission was no gurantee yet all these guys have to do is like basically apply and they're getting in. I mean when i applied i had a 3.9 and like 11, 11, 10 and i only got 1 interview the first time and only 3 interviews the second time with 1 acceptance(and that was after being waitlisted all summer). Oh well i guess i should be happy because i know how crummy i was feeling when i couldn't get any interviews so i guess i should wish everybody the best no matter what they're scores are. But still mcat averages of 5's and 6's, i mean don't you get that just for writing in your name. I don't know what do you guys think.
     
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  3. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    All you have to do is look at the numbers of applicants. I don't have them in front of me but <a href="http://www.aamc.org" target="_blank">http://www.aamc.org</a> will tell you exactly how many people applied to medical school last year. The high 4 years ago was around 47,000 or so (I might be off a few thousand) which I understand to be substantially higher than the numbers these days. Therefore, you CAN get in with lower numbers than just a few years ago.

    Pretty typical pattern - applications to medical school rise and fall every few years.
     
  4. Orthodog

    Orthodog Junior Member
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    Godfather,
    What the hell is up with that Minority comment? Why does everybody assume that minorities always have lower scores than there white counterparts. Your statement just goes to show that whites are just as equal to their minorty peers. I am a fourth year medical student (at an MD school) and my med school grades are better than 85% of the entire class. Race has no bearing on outcome as a physician. :mad:

    As for your question at hand? Getting admitted to a medical school in the United States isn't getting easier. Most medical schools are looking for more well rounded individuals to fill their slots. This explains the overll increase in the average age of the first year med student to 25. Ninety percent of the applicants to medical school are excellent students, but probably a smaller percentage are excellent people. Any physician will tell you that the practice of medicine isn't all academic. Other factors are included in the students selection (ie volunteerism, employement, interest, etc.). All these tell the committee that you will be a good fit into their institution. :D
     
  5. Sandpaper

    Sandpaper Member
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    Granted, anecdotal evidence isn't scientific, but at my school, it's the minority folks who are struggling and extending. I don't think godfather means to offend, but I've noticed that he has the tendency to ramble into tricky territories. Certainly, there are outstanding minority students individually (such as Orthodog there), but taken as a whole, I am willing to stake that minority folks has lower standardized exam scores. This is an irrefutable fact if someone cares to look into it without the fear of being labeled a bigot. Hey, there's a lot of politics in medicine.

    As for Orthodog's view that medical school is looking for more well-rounded people, I think it's a mistake to place premium emphasis on it. My school, the bastion of PCness, has tried such tactics only to see its "well-rounded" students struggle and fail classes. In medicine, what matters is academic abilities. Not to downplay the humanity side of medicine, but if you're sick, you'd want a capable doctor, not someone who can hold your hand. A village idiot can do that.
     
  6. e2k

    e2k Member
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    I know what you mean, godfather.

    I don't mean to brag but my scores were better than that, and I had similar luck applying.

    However, I'm very happy where I am, so I'm not complaining.

    As for MCAT scores relating to physician ability: I see it both ways. If you're going to be a surgeon, pediatrician, or other speciality where that kind of linear MCAT thinking is not necessary, then it's not important. For medicine, you have to know your basic sciences COLD. And MCATs are a good predictor of academic outcome of the first two years.

    ERIC
     
  7. Soupbone

    Soupbone Member
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  8. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    To paraphrase: those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. I will not argue that medical schools are getting better at choosing students with stellar qualities other than academic. HOWEVER, they've been doing this for YEARS. Today's applicants do not have lower numbers than those a few years ago because schools are now seeing the benefits of picking applicants with great extracurriculars (at the expense of gpa and MCATS) but rather a simple law of supply and demand. There are fewer applicants: when you have fewer than 2 applicants per spot you are less choosy than when you have 3+ per spot.

    I do not believe that today's students are any less qualified or will be less successful as physicians than those who've gone before them. Just wanted to reiterate the FACT that medical school applications cycle - every 5 years or so the numbers of applications drops as does the average MCAT and gpa of the accepted students. For the last 20 years or so this has had very little, if anything to do with schools desiring a more well rounded student body.
     
  9. godfather

    godfather Member
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    orthodog and anybody else on these forum i'm very sorry if i offended you in my last post because it was clearly not my intention. The only reason i put in my post that nonminorities were getting in with low numbers was because most people believe when people with low numbers get in, it must be some minority(which is obviously wrong), and i just wanted to highlight how it's much easier for EVERYBODY(especially in some of the DO Schools) to get in than 4 years ago when i applied. your absolutely right when you say that alot of minorities have very high numbers and get accepted. Although AA does sometimes help borderline candidates get in, i have no problem with this (i actually believe there is a role for AA, but would rather see it be applied on an income basis because i feel all poor people begin disadvantaged, furthermore this way it would still help minorities more since they are more likely (i know not always but more often than not) to come from a lower socioeconomic status. Anyways i hope you accept my apology and all of you guys that do get accepted, regardless of your numbers congradulations, i'm sure everybody struggled in thier own way. For those of you that want to become doctors now is the time apply.
     
  10. brownman

    brownman Member
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    guys,

    Let's address everypoint here. First of all, sandpaper is a bad ass. I love people who are bold. I'm defending godfather because he and I went to the same med school, and unfortunately the make it a very evident point to tell us that they are reviewing our application and putting them into different peer groups (which is my gentle way of saying they profiled their standards based on your race). I was screwed as an Indian, because everyone of my countrymen ends up being a doctor or an engineer; and they all so happen to be over achieving asian kids. Who cares about race frankly...if you can make it through med school...you're a doctor. If you can't, you won't be a doctor. RACE DON'T MEAN DINK...if you can't hack it. So the admissions committee (as bold as they were in telling us they were racially profiling), is crippling anyone who doesn't have a fighting chance by admitting based on lower standards (by the way, if you think that providing lower admission standards to other races doesn't happen, and isn't significant enough to be statistically significant...than...I'll be bold enough to come out and say you're a jackass. You have not been living in the same world the rest of us have, and you need to leave your mom's basement and join us in sunshine. It works the other way too...indian kids with high scores don't get in. It sucks all the way around...this isn't a race argument, it's just that schools have made it one...by going out of their way to admit it as part of their acceptance standards. MY BELIEF IS THAT IF YOU GIVE SOMEONE A CHANCE IT SHOULD BE DUE TO POVERTY OR NEED, NOT RACE. BECAUSE IT AIN'T A BLACK THING, OR A WHITE THING OR A HISPANIC THING...OPPORTUNITY FOR BETTER EDUCATION IS FUNDAMENTALLY AVAILED TO THE WEALTHY. So if you can show that in your formative educational years your parents made dink for salary and that you had a horrid educational foundation, then you should be helped. Otherwise..the rest of it is bullshiz). Nuff said.

    Ok, as far as med school admission...Kimberli is dead on. Supply and demand. RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE TO KILL SOMONE TO GET INTO BUSINESS SCHOOL. Everyone is applying. Two years ago, they were taking syphlitics with GMAT's of 600 at Stanford. Now you need a reco. letter from Jesus, and you might still have to have an interview. In the end, our scores are irrelevant. If you can make it through med school, you can be a doctor...period. THE ONLY THING WE HAVE THAT OTHERS DON'T IS PERSISTENCE. Otherwise, we're just as smart as any other intelligent person. WE JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE A HIGH THRESHOLD FOR PAIN AND NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD OUTSIDE OF OUR SPHERE. Godfather...congratulations...you'll be a physician. The rest is up to you.

    WAR PRIVATE PRACTICE. I'm out!
     
  11. SimulD

    SimulD Senior Member
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    What baffles me about the original post is that the average MCATs and GPAs to get into MD schools is HIGHER now than ever before, based on the AAMC's web page statistics.

    So, if that is the case, I'd say self-selection is pretty evident, if the applicant #s go down, and the stats go up. I don't have stats on DO schools, so I wouldn't know. If you don't believe me, just check the AAMC website, they have a nice chart showing the progression of MCATs and GPAs. But, this year's class (2005) definitely tapered off, looking at their numbers.

    Simul
    Tulane Med '05
     
  12. lilycat

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    I wouldn't rely too much on anecdotal evidence in the pre-allo forum. :rolleyes:

    If you look at the AAMC data, the MCAT scores have stayed fairly constant -- I think VR is down by .1 from 1997, and both PS and BS are up slightly since that time. The average GPA for matriculants has gone up since 1997. Although the overall number of applicants has gone down, there are still over twice as many applicants as there are spots in medical school -- the schools can still afford to be very choosy about who they accept. Most admissions offices have stated as much -- although the overall number of applicants has gone down, the caliber has gone up.
     
  13. LR6SO4

    LR6SO4 Senior Member
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    It's interesting that business schools are hard to get into right now while med school apps have fallen. I'm guessing that the market for MBA's right now sucks whereas physicians are either in demand or way oversupplied depending on what source you read/specialty/area of the country, etc.

    My guess is that med school apps will increase greatly this next cycle due to the economy (or mabye not because it's not THAT bad right now, if you don't watch the news anyways...)
     
  14. proffit

    proffit ovary mcnugget
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  15. This year about 40% of the students accepted into <a href="http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/admissions/tucominfo.htm" target="_blank">Touro University's class of 2005</a> were from the University of California (UC) system. The class of '05 also had students who got their Bachelor's at Cornell, Stanford, and Brown University.

    The UCs had 5 schools (UC Berkeley, UCLA, UC San Diego, UC Davis, and UC Irvine) <a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/natudoc/natudoc_pubs.htm" target="_blank">ranked in the top 10 of the nation's public schools</a> according to US News & World Report. UC Berkeley was ranked as the top public school in the nation. Including all the schools in the nation (public and private), <a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc.htm" target="_blank">the UCs had six schools ranked in the top 50</a> (UC Berkeley, UC San Diego, UCLA, UC Irvine, UC Davis, and UC Santa Barbara). UC Berkeley, UC Davis, and UCLA were the schools with the most matriculating students into TUCOM.

    At TUCOM, applicants who do not have both a 3.0 and a 24 on the MCAT are automatically rejected without a secondary. <a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/dir-med/admis_04147.htm" target="_blank">The average statistics of TUCOM students are: GPA: 3.5 and MCAT: 9.0 (V-8.3, P-9.4, B-9.3).</a> While the average statistics have remained the same, the caliber of the undergraduates has increased.

    I am sure that there are people who have been accepted with low GPAs and MCATs, but then there must've been people with stellar GPAs and MCATs to balance them out for the average GPAs and MCATs that you see listed. I don't think that a few anecdotal examples say as much as averages do.

    I have seen examples of people with very low scores who have been accepted. This is not exclusive to osteopathic schools. I feel that all medical schools should have a minimum for applicants. I think a 3.0 and a 24 sounds reasonable and perhaps they should even have a passing score for the MCAT like they do for the USMLE/COMLEX. It has been my experience that the people with crappy GPAs and MCATs that do get accepted into DO school usually have connections. I have found nepotism to be more prevalent in DO schools than MD schools, just as it is with MBA and some JD programs. There aren't many of these students, but they do in fact bring down the averages at DO schools. If your dad went to CCOM or teaches there, chances are that you will probably get in too.

    There is no disputing the fact that allopathic schools do have higher average MCATs and GPAs than their osteopathic counterparts. However, if you take away the top 50 allopathic schools such as Harvard, UCSF, UCLA, Pritzker, Baylor, WashU, Yale, Stanford and so forth, with their stellar GPA and MCATs, you will find that the statistics of the remaining 75 allopathic medical schools are not dramatically different from many of the students at osteopathic medical schools.

    Since I applied in 1997, I have found that the caliber of students at both Touro and Western has increased. I don't know what's going on with the individual DO schools outside of CA, but the statistics I've seen overall has shown a slight increase in both GPA and MCAT scores despite a decreasing number of applicants.

    As with any graduate degree program, there will be ones that are easier to matriculate into than others. Touro is by no means the DO school with the highest GPA and MCAT scores. However, I think you should judge a school by its individual merits rather than make a blanket statement about the whole field. While Harvard, UCSF, South Carolina, and Howard all grant the MD degree, some would say that there is great variance amongst the quality of matriculants; The same holds true for the DO schools as well.
     
  16. Slingblade the Surgeon

    Slingblade the Surgeon Senior Member
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    Hehehe backpedalling is fun to watch.
     
  17. Sandpaper

    Sandpaper Member
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  18. bustinbooty

    bustinbooty Senior Member
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    Whether your "bold" words stem from the power of anonimity or not, this same anonimity is no excuse to lose your maturity and professionalism when posting. I have a strong feeling that these two qualities would be more strongly displayed in face-to-face conversations
     
  19. brownman

    brownman Member
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    "Whether your "bold" words stem from the power of anonimity or not, this same anonimity is no excuse to lose your maturity and professionalism when posting. I have a strong feeling that these two qualities would be more strongly displayed in face-to-face conversations"

    OK...BUSTINBOOTY (which seems like a pretty professional screen name to me...DR. BUSTINBOOTY...PLEASE REPORT TO THE OR STAT), I don't think Sandpaper is lacking in maturity or professionalism. He's stating his opinion, and then defending himself subsequent to being called a "hate monger" for listing statistical evidence. As long as people on both sides think that this is a race issue and not a wealth issue, the problem will never be solved. AND THIS STATEMENT, COMING FROM ME A COLORED PERSON WHO WAS SEARCHED AT THE AIRPORT FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES BECAUSE I FIT THE DESCRIPTION IS A "bold" statement. The point is not black people aren't as smart or white people are smarter...the point is there is a statistical outlay that has been INTERPRETED by those in higher education to show that people of certain races have a prediliction to poorer performance, when the reality is...THAT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SKIN COLOR. But admittedly, med schools have basically shown by statement or action, that this is how they chose to interpret these figures...USING RACE AS THE DIVIDE. I don't see how then it can be viewed in anyother way. AND IT'S THOSE PEOPLE WHO SIT THERE AND STATE.."YOU ARE SUCH A RACIST, HOW CAN YOU SAY THESE THINGS...BLACKS, HISPANICS, AND INDIANS DON'T HAVE LOWER SCORES AND STILL GET IN. THAT IS A FALSEHOOD...are utterly ignorant". We have set up this system to allow those people an opportunity...BUT NOT BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN, BUT BECAUSE ANCESTRALLY THEY HAVE BEEN DENIED THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AT A BETTER EDUCATION. And by the way...every idiot who makes the point of calling it racist, instead of need based (which is what it really is)...IS DOING THE PEOPLE WHO STRUGGLED, MAY HAVE GOTTEN LOWER SCORES...GOT IN AND BECAME QUALITY PHYSICIANS...a bad name. Affirmative action is racist...only because we bring race into it. SO LET'S LEAVE THAT OUT...or at least recognize that though the statistics are based on race...WE MED STUDENTS DIDN'T DETERMINE THAT METRIC. I know as a med student..i wouldn't have been the least bit offended if someone who was offereded less opportunity in life got my position at school with lower scores. BUT I WOULD BE OFFENDED IF SOMEONE OF SIMILAR MEANS GOT MY POSITION BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN...AND I WOULDN'T BE THE LEAST BIT RETICENT IN TELLING THEM THAT THIS POLICY IS RACIST...FOR BY DEFINITION IT IS. And that is all sandpaper is stating. That, due to politics beyond his control, studies have been presented that show that scores of certain races are lower than others. We never based it on economic means...so until that metric exists or is used...race is the only way we can state it. If that's true...though the truth hurts...it is what it is. IN THE END, I DON'T CARE...WHATEVER YOUR RACE, COLOR OR CREED...IF YOU BECOME A COMPETENT PHYSICIAN...IT IS ALL GOOD IN MY BOOK. Just don't be afraid in this life to say what you feel...and be ready to except the consequences. Sandpaper was being bold...which makes him quality in my book. Regardless of whether I agree with what he says...I respect the fact that he says it...BECAUSE IT IS NOT THE PC THING TO SAY BUT IT IS THE CORRECT MANIFESTATION BASED ON AVAILABLE INFORMATION.

    Whatever...everybody do what you want. I'm tired...I'm going home. Good luck killing yourself over this minutia...in the end...it just doesn't matter.
     
  20. brownman

    brownman Member
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    I'm sure sandpaper would be willing to have this conversation in a street alley somewhere...BUT THAT JUST ISN'T VERY PROFESSIONAL..so let's hope it never comes to that shall we?
     
  21. FlameBoy

    FlameBoy Flameboy
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    Stories on SDN are trash-talking. If you believe the stats quoted by these fools, you should be baking cookies for Santa right now. :mad:
     
  22. realruby2000

    realruby2000 Senior Member
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  23. Thewonderer

    Thewonderer Senior Member
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  24. Soupbone

    Soupbone Member
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    Brownman,

    I think you articulated your stance pretty well.
    I cannot disagree with almost all of what you wrote. Seems like you have really objectively thought about this issue.

    You are correct in saying that your opinion is not PC, but I believe is the most objective and fair. As an URM med student from a disadvantaged background, I was reading your impressed with your level of objectivity into the issue. Alot of people, including myself, have a tendency of importing alot of bias into this arguement.

    S0upb0ne
     
  25. lotus

    lotus Junior Member
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    Getting back to the original question...

    I agree with the idea that as applications drop, the standards for average gpa/mcat have to drop as well.

    One thing I'm curious about is whether the drop in applications apply to osteopathic programs as well. It seems like a lot of people who in the past would have applied to allopathic programs, now apply to osteopathic schools, as the latter's popularity grows.

    Just personally, I didn't even know about osteopathy a few years ago, and would have applied to allopathic schools because it was how you became a doctor. Once I learned about osteopathy, I only applied to those schools, and was wondering if such a trend has contributed to the decline in AMCAS applications?
     
  26. mpp

    mpp SDN Moderator
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  27. Sandpaper

    Sandpaper Member
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    Browndude, thanks for the props bro. A well-said piece of dissertation. Sometimes methinks you spend too much time on these here forums. Heheh.

    As for the airport searches, I feel your pain. Haven't made it clean through once yet. Is it my skin? Heheh. I don't feel so bad because one time those fools took ten minutes to search this little white old lady. Sometimes one wishes they would racially profile a bit more efficient. Ooooo...another controversial topic.
     
  28. TUCOM used to publish on its website that the minimum GPA and MCAT was 3.0 and 24 respectively to receive a secondary. I haven't been to the website recently, but I did just now. They have updated the website to read as follows:

    "TUCOM is one of the few medical schools that performs a screening prior to sending out the supplemental application. The qualifying bar is reviewed every year; sometimes during an actual admissions cycle."

    Therefore, I guess now it is possible to receive a secondary with a MCAT of 23. However, there are very few applicants who are actually accepted who have a MCAT score less than 24. I know the adcom tries hard to keep the average GPA and MCAT at 3.5 and 27. I believe that there are plenty of applicants with significant life experiences and/or interest in osteopathic medicine who have such qualifications.
     
  29. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud
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    I have a friend who was accepted to TUCOM off the wait list last year with a GPA of 3.9 and an MCAT score of 20. Significant clinical and research experience. Had a couple of great letters of rec from an MD and DO.
     
  30. hndrx1a

    hndrx1a electric medical haze
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    I SAY BOTH SANDPAPER AND BROWNMAN ARE ELOQUENT BADASSES
     
  31. I think the original poster who started this hot dog on a stick for mutts should never have been accepted to med school and shot at point blank range. Why? Because he uses the word like in every single sentence as if he has spent most of his life smoking pot. I can't believe they let that guy in med school. His ramblings are obviously drug induced. He is an embarassment to us all.
     
  32. Hedwig

    Hedwig Senior Member
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    Godfather,

    There's a post somewhere in the osteopathic or pre-osteopathic forum made up of people with 30+ on the MCAT who've been rejected from DO school this year. Last time I looked, there were quite a few posters on there.

    While I appreciate your frustration (well, sort of), I'm afraid that your facts aren't exactly accurate.

    DO school is like a world unto itself. I have a 3.97 GPA, stellar stats and extracurriculars (editor-in-chief of college newspaper, etc.), and yet this summer I'm going to be volunteering in an urban ER because without more clinical/life experience there's not a chance in hell that I'm going to be able to get into the non-primary-care-oriented osteopathic schools (specifically PCOM, UMDNJ). Yet if I wanted to go to MD school I could pretty much sit on my a$$ on the beach next summer, apply to my state schools, and probably not have much of a problem based on my great numbers.

    Pathetically, this is probably the 50th time I'm writing this phrase on SDN: DON'T MAKE STRATOSPHERIC DECLAMATIONS ABOUT THINGS YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT!!!!! :mad:

    Half of applicants matriculate into allopathic and osteopathic medical schools these days. Fine. But remember, the other half still does not. And I've never met a student who purposely slacked off as an undergraduate because it's not as difficult to get into medical school these days. People still work as hard as you did.

    <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" />
     

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