I am an IMG and recently recieved scores of 186 on both steps. Is this bad that I can kiss dreams of general surgery goodbye? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Have I ruined my chances of General Surgery with my scores?
- Thread starter Jane Fox
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Unless you develop some connections with a particular program I would say yes you have ruined your chances.
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by Jane Fox:
•I am an IMG and recently recieved scores of 186 on both steps. Is this bad that I can kiss dreams of general surgery goodbye? 🙁•••••Those scores will pretty much keep you out of most residency programs, regardless of the field, with the exceptions of some unfavorable FP and IM programs.
•I am an IMG and recently recieved scores of 186 on both steps. Is this bad that I can kiss dreams of general surgery goodbye? 🙁•••••Those scores will pretty much keep you out of most residency programs, regardless of the field, with the exceptions of some unfavorable FP and IM programs.
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I don't think that's neccesarily so. You can always find empty prelim spots & parlay that into a categorical spot if you do an ok job.In addition, if you finish a prelim year & don't like it, you should be able to find an anesthesia job if you don't enjoy surgery. A categorical spot in the match might be a little harder as you would be competing against some FMG's with very good scores. If you have an oppurtunity, you might try some audition rotations your 4th year of med school.
Keep your chin up! 🙂
Keep your chin up! 🙂
I always enjoy it when knucklehead advice is offered in an attempt to squash dreams with such irrational alacrity.
If surgery is indeed your dream than go for it, and don't let anyone here tell you otherwise. You can and will obtain a spot if you are prepared to brave a rather rigorous and demanding path.
Surgery has become one of the least competitive specialties to match in with tons of empty prelim slots. Grab one of those spots and work your arse off. You need to demonstrate that a memory exam, I.E. the Usmle, is a poor predictor of clinical excellence. Do this by performing at a very high level wherever you end up.
It wont be easy, but it can certainly be done if you are determined.
K.P.
If surgery is indeed your dream than go for it, and don't let anyone here tell you otherwise. You can and will obtain a spot if you are prepared to brave a rather rigorous and demanding path.
Surgery has become one of the least competitive specialties to match in with tons of empty prelim slots. Grab one of those spots and work your arse off. You need to demonstrate that a memory exam, I.E. the Usmle, is a poor predictor of clinical excellence. Do this by performing at a very high level wherever you end up.
It wont be easy, but it can certainly be done if you are determined.
K.P.
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by Klebsiella:
•
Surgery has become one of the least competitive specialties to match in with tons of empty prelim slots. •••••I don't think that statement is entirely correct. Categorical spots still have only a relative handful of spots that are not filling, but some of the trends in the applicant pool are troubling. Prelim spots have never filled in great #'s, especially as many of today's anesthesiology residents look for easier intern years prior to starting clinical anesthesia.
On the flip side, there are more oppurtunities for those who didn't "shine" during their preclinical years who previously would not have had much chance to do surgery and the chance for FMG's to get a spot has never been better for them (although still not likely at most attractive positions)
•
Surgery has become one of the least competitive specialties to match in with tons of empty prelim slots. •••••I don't think that statement is entirely correct. Categorical spots still have only a relative handful of spots that are not filling, but some of the trends in the applicant pool are troubling. Prelim spots have never filled in great #'s, especially as many of today's anesthesiology residents look for easier intern years prior to starting clinical anesthesia.
On the flip side, there are more oppurtunities for those who didn't "shine" during their preclinical years who previously would not have had much chance to do surgery and the chance for FMG's to get a spot has never been better for them (although still not likely at most attractive positions)
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Honestly, that kind of scores if I am not mistaken, are just barely PASS!
I don't want to discourage you, but you would really have a tough time even getting interviews. In fact, I would not be surprised you would have a tough time at most primary care programs. Although the avg. score for matched applicants has been decreasing, I believe most applicants still would have scores above 200.
One suggested you can obtain a Anesth. spot after a prelim year, well, I would say good luck. Quality of Anesthesia applicants are definitely on the rise, and programs will become more and more selective.
I encourage you to explore opportunities in surgery and nothing is impossible, but you really need to prepare for different options.
I don't want to discourage you, but you would really have a tough time even getting interviews. In fact, I would not be surprised you would have a tough time at most primary care programs. Although the avg. score for matched applicants has been decreasing, I believe most applicants still would have scores above 200.
One suggested you can obtain a Anesth. spot after a prelim year, well, I would say good luck. Quality of Anesthesia applicants are definitely on the rise, and programs will become more and more selective.
I encourage you to explore opportunities in surgery and nothing is impossible, but you really need to prepare for different options.
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For Jamie Fox,
I was surfing the web one day after match day this year and I was on the University of Kentucky general surgery website and they actually published the scores of their matched new residents for 2002. it was 215. This is a solid program with a good regional reputation, but it would not be in peoples list of very competitive programs for this specialty, and it was still 215. I would never offer my suggestion to you of what to do because I don't know enough about surgery residency, but this number is a published fact. Check out the web. They might have taken it down after match day though. Anyone else who knows differently please speak up.
I was surfing the web one day after match day this year and I was on the University of Kentucky general surgery website and they actually published the scores of their matched new residents for 2002. it was 215. This is a solid program with a good regional reputation, but it would not be in peoples list of very competitive programs for this specialty, and it was still 215. I would never offer my suggestion to you of what to do because I don't know enough about surgery residency, but this number is a published fact. Check out the web. They might have taken it down after match day though. Anyone else who knows differently please speak up.
•••quote:••• I don't think that statement is entirely correct. Categorical spots still have only a relative handful of spots that are not filling, but some of the trends in the applicant pool are troubling.••••Obviously this is a somewhat vague point, but I believe there is compelling evidence that surgery is even less competitive than raw match statistics let on. Recruitment this past season was fierce, as program directors seem to have been on to the upcoming famine. What this means is that PD's simply filled a lot of spots with 'less qualified' bodies.
Remember, even the least popular specialties will fill most of their spots. Filling slots isn't a particularly good meter at all, as there is an ample supply of bodies outside this country ready to pounce. Almost all slots eventually fill in any given field. A much better meter analyzes the type of applicant that fills that seat. Any way you look at it, Surgery got clobbered, and the downtrend seems to be just beginning.
Thats my take.
K.P.
Remember, even the least popular specialties will fill most of their spots. Filling slots isn't a particularly good meter at all, as there is an ample supply of bodies outside this country ready to pounce. Almost all slots eventually fill in any given field. A much better meter analyzes the type of applicant that fills that seat. Any way you look at it, Surgery got clobbered, and the downtrend seems to be just beginning.
Thats my take.
K.P.
you'll get a spot somewhere. surgery is an easy match right now. the thing you have to remember is that most fmgs are older individuals who were practicing physicians in their countries, and although they'll take any residency they can get, they'd much rather do a short residency like im ,fp than a 5 year surgery residency. as far as 186 being too low(although this is a low score) that's not the case. at a respected university program in the m idwest i kid you not there are like 2 or 3 certifiable idiots that are fmgs (i think they're from jamaica) who had scores under 200 that matched(they're pgy 2 now) and were telling the med students on the service how they had multiple interviews. i kid you not these guys sucked, i mean never had thier work done, fund of knowledge was less than the 3rd year med students on the service, but still due to the desperate times matched into a categorical spot at what is a very good training program. this was 2 years ago and things have only gotten worse. you won't match at mass general but you'll get a spot somewhere, probably even a categorical spot. don't listen to all these clueless idiots, half of whom haven't even gone through the match but are speaking out of their asses. believe me i was in the same position last year, and these same clueless idiots were posting all of this bs about how hard it was to get into certain fields and yet after the match you realize how many brain dead idiots who's stats are anything but stellar actually matched into these fields. this was in particular true of er, optho, anasesthsia, and radiology. the only 2 fields that were as hard to get into as their stated reputation, were derm, and orthopedics. here i can confirm that only people with really high board scores and or great connections matched from my class.
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by godfather:
• at a respected university program in the m idwest i kid you not there are like 2 or 3 certifiable idiots that are fmgs (i think they're from jamaica) who had scores under 200 that matched(they're pgy 2 now) and were telling the med students on the service how they had multiple interviews. i kid you not these guys sucked, i mean never had thier work done, fund of knowledge was less than the 3rd year med students on the service, but still due to the desperate times matched into a categorical spot at what is a very good training program.•••••Umm that is disturbing. I guess there are bad doctors afterall...
• at a respected university program in the m idwest i kid you not there are like 2 or 3 certifiable idiots that are fmgs (i think they're from jamaica) who had scores under 200 that matched(they're pgy 2 now) and were telling the med students on the service how they had multiple interviews. i kid you not these guys sucked, i mean never had thier work done, fund of knowledge was less than the 3rd year med students on the service, but still due to the desperate times matched into a categorical spot at what is a very good training program.•••••Umm that is disturbing. I guess there are bad doctors afterall...
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godfather - i dunno if you got the private message i tried sending you, but in case it didn't go through here's my question again:
can you tell me about some of the gen surg and internal med programs in the detroit area? i'm specifically curious to know which gen surg program you were referring to because I myself (although not an FMG) do not have great scores but I'd like to match somewhere in Michigan/Detroit.
2nd question: what do you know about Henry Ford vs. Beaumont for IM. Which would you chose and why?
Thanks in advance.
can you tell me about some of the gen surg and internal med programs in the detroit area? i'm specifically curious to know which gen surg program you were referring to because I myself (although not an FMG) do not have great scores but I'd like to match somewhere in Michigan/Detroit.
2nd question: what do you know about Henry Ford vs. Beaumont for IM. Which would you chose and why?
Thanks in advance.
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Hey everyone, I wanted to know:
1) how Emergency medicine is so competitive when it required knowledge of every specialty, and also, since its basically primary care.
2) Is there a shortage of emergency physicians, specifically in the ny area.
3) How do you keep from getting low scores (like below 200) on the step exams.
Thanks a lot. Appreciate any info.
1) how Emergency medicine is so competitive when it required knowledge of every specialty, and also, since its basically primary care.
2) Is there a shortage of emergency physicians, specifically in the ny area.
3) How do you keep from getting low scores (like below 200) on the step exams.
Thanks a lot. Appreciate any info.
sorry jive turkey i didn't answer your questions right away. as far as im goes henry ford is clearly superior to beaumont. beaumont is in a posh area of town, and many people mistakenly choose to go there for this reason alone. however most of the attendings are private attendings and thus have no incentive to teach. usually there will only be 2 or 3 patients max that will be teaching patients on whom you round as a team and actually learn of. pathology is limited at this hospitol. hfh is better as it's in the city thus more pathology, however even though they have more teaching patients than beaumont, there still private patients you take care of, off of whom you get limited educational benefits. the best im program in my opinion in the city (and possibly the state) is the wayne state /dmc program. because it is a university program, you only take care of teaching patients. private patients tend to go to another service. didactics are plentiful, pathology in the city is unrivaled anywhere. also being a big university program, there is the full complement of fellowships and research opportunities available. there are actually 2 residents who are transferring from beaumont to the wayne state program. as far as the surgery programs, i'm referring to the wayne state surgery program, another decent program is the providence program. the surgeons in the wayne state program are litteraly world renowned(they might be retiring soon however). i mean they literally wrote the surgery books. as far as trauma surgery goes, you will be hard pressed to find a better program in the country and as matter of fact the mayo clinic sends all of their surgery residents to wayne state/ dmc program to get their trauma surgery training.
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