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To my shock and awe, it happened to me the other day.

Our team was visiting somebody on the oncology service with CML. Of course they have all these contact precautions. The nurse (I think she was just a regular RN) sees two of us with our short white coats and starts trying to pimp us on immunosuppression!

I almost laughed out loud, but decided against it and proceeded to give her a detailed explanation, including molecular mechanisms that she obviously had no clue about. After I went on about 5 minutes, covering stuff that she had obviously never heard before because they dont cover it in nursing school, she finally mumbled something about needing to check on a patient and left. I should have rang a school bell and said "class dismissed"

I've got no problem with nurses in general, and they can be a valuable resource. But its not her place to pimp me. Hell I get punked all day by attendings and residents the last thing I need is for some uppity nurse to think that its her responsibility to "train" me as if she's qualified to be my superior.

Nurses can run circles around me in terms of knowing the logistics of hospital operations, or the finer points of administering medications, but I will school them on pathophysiology any day of the week.
 

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Maybe she was asking for her benefit or because she wanted to make sure you knew that you were supposed to follow contact/reverse contact precautions.

One more fine example why nurses think a lot of physicians have an ego.
 

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MacGyver said:
To my shock and awe, it happened to me the other day.

Our team was visiting somebody on the oncology service with CML. Of course they have all these contact precautions. The nurse (I think she was just a regular RN) sees two of us with our short white coats and starts trying to pimp us on immunosuppression!

I almost laughed out loud, but decided against it and proceeded to give her a detailed explanation, including molecular mechanisms that she obviously had no clue about. After I went on about 5 minutes, covering stuff that she had obviously never heard before because they dont cover it in nursing school, she finally mumbled something about needing to check on a patient and left. I should have rang a school bell and said "class dismissed"

I've got no problem with nurses in general, and they can be a valuable resource. But its not her place to pimp me. Hell I get punked all day by attendings and residents the last thing I need is for some uppity nurse to think that its her responsibility to "train" me as if she's qualified to be my superior.

Nurses can run circles around me in terms of knowing the logistics of hospital operations, or the finer points of administering medications, but I will school them on pathophysiology any day of the week.

Way to be a team player. You can learn from anyone... patients, nurses, techs, etc... I think you should stop assuming you are smarter or better than anyone else and try to get the most out of your rotation.
 
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bah, don't listen to 'em Mac, I'm with ya. You have enough to worry about without nurses pimping you. Most nurses are great, but the irritating ones that want to try and get off on showing up a medical student deserve to be fed their hat
 

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Although there is a lot of interaction between nurses and doctors, educationally, we are on completely separate tracks. I agree that as a student you can learn from anybody, but if a nurse asks u a question and for some reason or another you don't know the answer in front of a senior resident or attending, that looks horrible. There is no reason for that type of behavior. There was one time in my school where the nurse, while in front of our senior resident asked him a question on OB. When he didn't know the answer, she told him he should 'quit med school and try pharmacy' Statements like that are just uncalled for, and I completely agree that it is not the nurses place or any other health professional's place to pimp a medical student.
 

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It's called etiquette. People should not be pimping you unless they are directly in charge of your supervision. A nurse definitely has no place in doing any of that. When they do something like that, they are just trying to make themselves feel as if they have more power than they really do. It's just a way to make themselves feel better.

When I was on my 3 month surgery rotation, even the 4th year surgery resident would never pimp me in front of the attending due to etiquette. You just dont do that kind of stuff on someone elses territory.

If that was me, I'd be tempted to tell her that she has no place in pimping me, though I don't know if I'd have the balls to actually say something like that. But it would be nice to actually get snippy with all the nurses that gave me a hard time during 3rd year for no reason at all, except to make themselves feel more powerful than they really are.






MacGyver said:
To my shock and awe, it happened to me the other day.

Our team was visiting somebody on the oncology service with CML. Of course they have all these contact precautions. The nurse (I think she was just a regular RN) sees two of us with our short white coats and starts trying to pimp us on immunosuppression!

I almost laughed out loud, but decided against it and proceeded to give her a detailed explanation, including molecular mechanisms that she obviously had no clue about. After I went on about 5 minutes, covering stuff that she had obviously never heard before because they dont cover it in nursing school, she finally mumbled something about needing to check on a patient and left. I should have rang a school bell and said "class dismissed"

I've got no problem with nurses in general, and they can be a valuable resource. But its not her place to pimp me. Hell I get punked all day by attendings and residents the last thing I need is for some uppity nurse to think that its her responsibility to "train" me as if she's qualified to be my superior.

Nurses can run circles around me in terms of knowing the logistics of hospital operations, or the finer points of administering medications, but I will school them on pathophysiology any day of the week.
 

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I wasn't there, but maybe she asked you because of a thirst for knowledge. If that's the case, then you need to stop looking down your nose.
 

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Ah, so many good physicians in the making. Keep up the good work and remember to keep the lowers in their places; we wouldn't want to foster mutual relationships for fear of disrupting the universal order of the healthcare hierarchy.

Just remember that the key to successful integration is to perpetuate the cycle. And don't ever believe that anyone knows more than you do... because we all know that's just silly-speak.

Also be sure to never help the house staff clean up because they surely don't know as much pathophys as you do. Maybe stop by the pediatric floor and beat up some sick children instead.

-kir
 

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That sounds like fun. /lol bullies....

keeping-it-real said:
Also be sure to never help the house staff clean up because they surely don't know as much pathophys as you do. Maybe stop by the pediatric floor and beat up some sick children instead.

-kir
 
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Guys she didnt ask me because she honestly was curious and didnt know, she asked because she wanted to pimp us and try to show off her (vastly limited and inferior) knowledge on the subject.

I can tell the difference between somebody asking an honest question and somebody trying to pimp
 

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Like I said, I wasn't there. So this was one of those Dr. hating nurses? I have seen those before when I worked as a phleb, though they're thankfully rare enough. They are the ones that constantly complain about a (usually one particular) physician and question the physician's competence.

Note: The above is NOT sarcasm.



MacGyver said:
Guys she didnt ask me because she honestly was curious and didnt know, she asked because she wanted to pimp us and try to show off her (vastly limited and inferior) knowledge on the subject.

I can tell the difference between somebody asking an honest question and somebody trying to pimp
 

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I love all the people on their high horses telling you to get off your high horse. You're all going to be horrible doctors, because you don't bow down to the nurses, who obviously have a crapload of more experience and knowledge than you. Sarcasm btw
 

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I have been pimped by a fourth year Sub-I before. During surgery, in front of the resident and attending. I had no choice but to meekly answer her questions, but all the while I was thinking, WHY are you pimping me???
 
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MacGyver said:
Guys she didnt ask me because she honestly was curious and didnt know, she asked because she wanted to pimp us and try to show off her (vastly limited and inferior) knowledge on the subject.

I can tell the difference between somebody asking an honest question and somebody trying to pimp
maybe if you can give us a direct quote of the pimp it will help to clear things up.
 

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a five minute talk on immunosuppression, especially given on the spot, is pretty impressive. i had no idea other medical students were capable of this.

i've gotten questions asked by others before. usually it's because they don't know. rarely i've gotten asked in a pimping manner. as a medical student you have to learn to choose your battles or you're going to get a lot of enemies. i remember this one time a nurse was giving me a hard time about contact precautions way early in the morning and i didn't have time for that BS but i just said ok thanks for letting me know. it was a good thing too because all the residents i worked with respected that nurse a lot, and bad vibes from that nurse could have made my month miserable by not only getting all the nurses against me but all the residents too. hope that helps.
 

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I heard from a classmate that while on a rotation as a fourth year a third year on his first rotation tried to pimp him and another fourth year in front of the residents. The fourth years and residents reportedly just laughed and walked away.
 

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I'm doing a medicine sub-I right now, and I told the junior students that if they ever catch me pimping them that they should pimp slap me! I'll jokingly pimp them, but they know I'm not being serious.

Pinner Doc said:
I have been pimped by a fourth year Sub-I before. During surgery, in front of the resident and attending. I had no choice but to meekly answer her questions, but all the while I was thinking, WHY are you pimping me???
 

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as an m4 i tend to pimp the m3s a lot but always in private or in the setting of group didactic sessions lead by me and away from other residents. it's always with the intent of teaching. i don't think it's bad because i don't grade them nor do i ever comment to others about their fund of knowledge. i tend to think this is helpful to the m3s and they seem to like it.

anyway i've never seen an m3 pimp. i don't think anyone in my school is that foolish.
 
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See, you do it in a place where they won't look like idiots in front of the people that decide their grades. I think that's beneficial because they will learn from the experience rather than just feel like a moron.
 

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keeping-it-real said:
Ah, so many good physicians in the making. Keep up the good work and remember to keep the lowers in their places; we wouldn't want to foster mutual relationships for fear of disrupting the universal order of the healthcare hierarchy.

Just remember that the key to successful integration is to perpetuate the cycle. And don't ever believe that anyone knows more than you do... because we all know that's just silly-speak.
-kir
:laugh: Nice. Pimping is a fascinating behavior to me, actually. Much like the way peacocks fan their feathers or gorillas beat their chests. It's all very primitive posturing, but interesting to observe behavior so instinctual and obviously necessary as to make its way even into the most intellectual societal echelons.
That is to say, will we ever evolve past this Bullsh*t?
 

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automaton said:
as an m4 i tend to pimp the m3s a lot but always in private or in the setting of group didactic sessions lead by me and away from other residents. it's always with the intent of teaching. i don't think it's bad because i don't grade them nor do i ever comment to others about their fund of knowledge. i tend to think this is helpful to the m3s and they seem to like it.
Definitely a nice way of doing it. Probably not technically "pimping" then.
 

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Hopefulmeds said:
Although there is a lot of interaction between nurses and doctors, educationally, we are on completely separate tracks. I agree that as a student you can learn from anybody, but if a nurse asks u a question and for some reason or another you don't know the answer in front of a senior resident or attending, that looks horrible. There is no reason for that type of behavior. There was one time in my school where the nurse, while in front of our senior resident asked him a question on OB. When he didn't know the answer, she told him he should 'quit med school and try pharmacy' Statements like that are just uncalled for, and I completely agree that it is not the nurses place or any other health professional's place to pimp a medical student.
Do you mean ask a question as in pimping, or ask a question as in "looking for info."? Because if someone doesn't know the answer to an honest question, I don't think any less of that person. You can't know everything.

I don't see nurses pimping students, but the hosp. I work in is just a small teaching facility, so this may be a phenom. of larger univ. hospitals. It's wrong, no matter what.
 

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MacGyver said:
Guys she didnt ask me because she honestly was curious and didnt know, she asked because she wanted to pimp us and try to show off her (vastly limited and inferior) knowledge on the subject.

I can tell the difference between somebody asking an honest question and somebody trying to pimp
Sorry, I responded before I got to this post.
 
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automaton said:
a five minute talk on immunosuppression, especially given on the spot, is pretty impressive. i had no idea other medical students were capable of this.

i've gotten questions asked by others before. usually it's because they don't know. rarely i've gotten asked in a pimping manner. as a medical student you have to learn to choose your battles or you're going to get a lot of enemies. i remember this one time a nurse was giving me a hard time about contact precautions way early in the morning and i didn't have time for that BS but i just said ok thanks for letting me know. it was a good thing too because all the residents i worked with respected that nurse a lot, and bad vibes from that nurse could have made my month miserable by not only getting all the nurses against me but all the residents too. hope that helps.
Contact precautions BS? Whoa. You do know that hospital acquired infections are usually related to staff not following proper precautions, don't you? Maybe you were being grilled because you weren't following those precautions, and maybe this nurse was trying to protect her other patients and you. You're not bulletproof--you can get sick, too.

Maybe there's a good reason why so many residents respect her.
 

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keeping-it-real said:
Ah, so many good physicians in the making. Keep up the good work and remember to keep the lowers in their places; we wouldn't want to foster mutual relationships for fear of disrupting the universal order of the healthcare hierarchy.

Just remember that the key to successful integration is to perpetuate the cycle. And don't ever believe that anyone knows more than you do... because we all know that's just silly-speak.

Also be sure to never help the house staff clean up because they surely don't know as much pathophys as you do. Maybe stop by the pediatric floor and beat up some sick children instead.

-kir

This is a truly beatific piece of sarcasm. I am speechless.

But not speechless enough to agree wholeheartedly with the implication.

Why so defensive when someone who's not your superior pimps you? If you really were as smart and confident as you would have us believe, MacGyver, you wouldn't have acted like an [email protected]# and spouted off 5 minutes of molecular immunology to prove your superior intelligence. You would have politely answered her question and moved on. And you certainly wouldn't have followed up by broadcasting your bad behavior on the internet.
 

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Brickhouse said:
:laugh: Nice. Pimping is a fascinating behavior to me, actually. Much like the way peacocks fan their feathers or gorillas beat their chests. It's all very primitive posturing, but interesting to observe behavior so instinctual and obviously necessary as to make its way even into the most intellectual societal echelons.
That is to say, will we ever evolve past this Bullsh*t?

I hope not. It's a time-honored method of teaching (back to Plato, in fact). When done well it's an excellent learning tool. It's hardly primitive, unless you call the great classical scholars primitive.

If people can drop the egos for half a second (the great challenge of third year), they might see what a great chance to learn pimping offers. I know I never remember the right answer better than when I've been pimped and gotten an answer WRONG.
 

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fab4fan said:
Contact precautions BS? Whoa. You do know that hospital acquired infections are usually related to staff not following proper precautions, don't you? Maybe you were being grilled because you weren't following those precautions, and maybe this nurse was trying to protect her other patients and you. You're not bulletproof--you can get sick, too.

Maybe there's a good reason why so many residents respect her.
you're right it's no BS per se but a simple reminder could have done the trick. instead i got some lecture about porous gloves. basically the patient was on standard icu precautions, basically universal gloving. i put on the gloves but the nurse was like, you gotta wash your hands before and after AND put on the gloves. i'm like ok dude, maybe you are right in theory but if i was wearing a long coat i would not be getting that same lecture.
 

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sophiejane said:
I hope not. It's a time-honored method of teaching (back to Plato, in fact). When done well it's an excellent learning tool. It's hardly primitive, unless you call the great classical scholars primitive.

If people can drop the egos for half a second (the great challenge of third year), they might see what a great chance to learn pimping offers. I know I never remember the right answer better than when I've been pimped and gotten an answer WRONG.

Can we agree there is a difference between the teaching methods of our respected scholarly ancestors :)barf: ) and the technique of "pimping" which really only calls attention to the insecurity of the pimper? I have no issue being questioned and having my knowledge tested constantly - but I think the term "pimp" has different connotations. Maybe?
 

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sophiejane said:
I hope not. It's a time-honored method of teaching (back to Plato, in fact). When done well it's an excellent learning tool. It's hardly primitive, unless you call the great classical scholars primitive.

If people can drop the egos for half a second (the great challenge of third year), they might see what a great chance to learn pimping offers. I know I never remember the right answer better than when I've been pimped and gotten an answer WRONG.
There's socratic method and then there's "pimping." Pimping involves asking questions, but getting asked questions isn't necessarily pimping.

The primary goal of pimping isn't education, its humiliation and maintainence of hierarchy.

I'm pleased to say that very little pimping goes on at my institution...phew...
 

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velo said:
There's socratic method and then there's "pimping." Pimping involves asking questions, but getting asked questions isn't necessarily pimping.

The primary goal of pimping isn't education, its humiliation and maintainence of hierarchy.

I'm pleased to say that very little pimping goes on at my institution...phew...

thanks velo for being more articulate than I and I'm glad you are in a primarly pimp free environment. :oops: all I've done is primary care so far and my attendings have been just wonderful, and I'm learning A LOT, hope it continues!
 

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MacGyver said:
Guys she didnt ask me because she honestly was curious and didnt know, she asked because she wanted to pimp us and try to show off her (vastly limited and inferior) knowledge on the subject.

I can tell the difference between somebody asking an honest question and somebody trying to pimp
So if her knowledge had been vastly superior to yours, that would have made it better?

Maybe this nurse was rude. You say so. But the arrogance and self-importance drips from every line of your posts, so I think a lot of us take you with a grain of salt when you complain of being ill-treated.
 

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First of all let me say that I hate the term "pimping", it sounds, well, really awful. But I don't mind when someone asks me a questions, because nothing sticks better to my head than when I don't know the answer and I am going to looking it up... I am never going to forget anemia of chronic disease vs iron deficiency anemia, and myelodysplastic syndrome, vs myeloproliferative disease. So anyway, nurses have a lot to over and teach us, especially the ICU ones, but I have my issues with some of them, as soon as they see the short coat, they are like the lion that just saw the gazzelle, and they just attack! :(
 

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Arista.MD said:
First of all let me say that I hate the term "pimping", it sounds, well, really awful. But I don't mind when someone asks me a questions, because nothing sticks better to my head than when I don't know the answer and I am going to looking it up... I am never going to forget anemia of chronic disease vs iron deficiency anemia, and myelodysplastic syndrome, vs myeloproliferative disease. So anyway, nurses have a lot to over and teach us, especially the ICU ones, but I have my issues with some of them, as soon as they see the short coat, they are like the lion that just saw the gazzelle, and they just attack! :(
If you wanna see something similar google Lions vs. hyenas, You can decide who are the hyenas.
 
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velo said:
There's socratic method and then there's "pimping." Pimping involves asking questions, but getting asked questions isn't necessarily pimping.

The primary goal of pimping isn't education, its humiliation and maintainence of hierarchy.

I've always understood "pimping" (I also hate the term!) to mean anytime you get asked a question (other than something like, "what was her sodium today?") on rounds. Being asked what the major risk factors for peritonitis in a liver patient doesn't feel like someone is trying to humiliate me. If I don't know, I learn it then and there.

When I get asked questions on rounds, it's not in the spirit of humiliation, and the questions are not unreasonable. They are used as a starting point for teaching. I don't take it personally when they say I'm wrong.
 
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You've never really been pimped then. I haven't myself, but I've witnessed a few pretty ugly episodes. It definitely is a learning experience, but not the good kind.
 

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automaton said:
as an m4 i tend to pimp the m3s a lot ...

...anyway i've never seen an m3 pimp. i don't think anyone in my school is that foolish.
Doesn't anyone else find this hilarious? These 2 statements are actually contradictory when you consider that an M4 barely knows any more than an M3. And since when did M4s start feeling empowered enough to hold a "teaching session" with other students?

That just really struck me as funny.
 

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toofache32 said:
Doesn't anyone else find this hilarious? These 2 statements are actually contradictory when you consider that an M4 barely knows any more than an M3. And since when did M4s start feeling empowered enough to hold a "teaching session" with other students?

That just really struck me as funny.
after 5 months of surgery including 3 subinternships months i disagree that i barely know more than m3s on their first month of surgery. surgery isn't really well taught during the first two years in my opinion. i don't see anything wrong with teaching people how to tie knots, treat hyperkalemia, approach renal failure, or common things like that. plus they have oral topics for which teaching sessions are helpful. not that i have to justify myself or anything. apology accepted.
 

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toofache32 said:
Doesn't anyone else find this hilarious? These 2 statements are actually contradictory when you consider that an M4 barely knows any more than an M3. And since when did M4s start feeling empowered enough to hold a "teaching session" with other students?

That just really struck me as funny.
A kindly M4 friend of mine took an hour to explain the basics of ward medicine to me on my first day of my first rotation. It wasn't rocket science, but it helped get me up to speed much quicker than me just stumbling around, and I was deeply thankful for what he did. I do think the difference between an M4 and M3 at the beginning of the year is huge, and M4s have an obligation to help the M3s when they can, just like the residents have an obligation to teach the interns.
 

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During my sub-I, without any warning signs I suddenly got pimped by an MS3, and in front of the senior resident to boot!
 

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Adcadet said:
I heard from a classmate that while on a rotation as a fourth year a third year on his first rotation tried to pimp him and another fourth year in front of the residents. The fourth years and residents reportedly just laughed and walked away.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

he deserved it. what a fool. getting cocky before he's even at the finish line.
 

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sophiejane said:
When I get asked questions on rounds, it's not in the spirit of humiliation, and the questions are not unreasonable. They are used as a starting point for teaching. I don't take it personally when they say I'm wrong.
Yeah that's why that's not pimping.

the term gets thrown around a lot and gets used incorrectly. If its a reasonable question about knowledge that you should have its not "pimping" its "teaching."
 
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Barry Otter said:
During my sub-I, without any warning signs I suddenly got pimped by an MS3, and in front of the senior resident to boot!
Did you promptly bitchslap his ass with information? :idea:
 

MirrorTodd

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Barry Otter said:
During my sub-I, without any warning signs I suddenly got pimped by an MS3, and in front of the senior resident to boot!
Would it be ok to laugh hysterically and walk away? Or since you've been asked the question, are you expected to answer it? Whatever happened to comraderie and team spirit?
 

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toofache32 said:
Doesn't anyone else find this hilarious? These 2 statements are actually contradictory when you consider that an M4 barely knows any more than an M3. And since when did M4s start feeling empowered enough to hold a "teaching session" with other students?
I disagree with this. When I was MS3 I valued the MS4s on service. They not only helped me write my first progress note in a real chart and interpret labs, but they helped me look good for the residents by having certain things done.

When I am on service with younger students I make it a point to help them out as much as possible, particularly when they are brand new to the hospital and experience of rotations (such as they are this time of year).

It sounds funny but some MS3s really need to learn how to be a medical student in the hospital. Older students on service can certainly help with that.

Do I think its appropriate for an MS4 to pimp an MS3? No, especially not in front of others. But I have on several occassions asked MS3s if they had any questions about their patients or if they had any questions about what information to present on rounds. I want my fellow students to look good in front of the residents and attendings...it makes for a better team dynamic I suppose.

But maybe being an MSV I feel a bit more "empowered".

:cool:
 

toofache32

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I'm all for helping out the new guys and showing them the ropes and explaining how the system works. The poster I was referring to made it sound like he was scheduling lectures for the 3rd years to attend as if he was actually their superior. But maybe I misinterpreted it.
 

automaton

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toofache32 said:
I'm all for helping out the new guys and showing them the ropes and explaining how the system works. The poster I was referring to made it sound like he was scheduling lectures for the 3rd years to attend as if he was actually their superior. But maybe I misinterpreted it.
nah dude whenever i'm sitting around doing jack sh.. and i see them sitting around doing the same i'm like what do you want to learn, let's go over an oral topic then run through a scenario. nothing too formal. besides, formal teaching sessions require work and let's face it, i'm an m4, i don't like work anymore
 

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velo said:
Yeah that's why that's not pimping.

the term gets thrown around a lot and gets used incorrectly. If its a reasonable question about knowledge that you should have its not "pimping" its "teaching."

But who is to say what the knowledge we should have is? For example,on surgery I got "pimped" a lot on anatomy. Should I remember every little vessel and what it looks like soaked in peritoneal fluid and covered in fat? Might be unreasonable to expect of a 3rd year. But I DID learn it once, although it looked pretty different in Netter...

My point is that I've never heard anyone distinguish a difference between being asked questions on rounds and being "pimped." Maybe it's a regional difference, I don't know. I think you can do it in a mean-spirited way or an educational way, but to me it's all pimping.
 

velo

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sophiejane said:
But who is to say what the knowledge we should have is? For example,on surgery I got "pimped" a lot on anatomy. Should I remember every little vessel and what it looks like soaked in peritoneal fluid and covered in fat? Might be unreasonable to expect of a 3rd year. But I DID learn it once, although it looked pretty different in Netter...

My point is that I've never heard anyone distinguish a difference between being asked questions on rounds and being "pimped." Maybe it's a regional difference, I don't know. I think you can do it in a mean-spirited way or an educational way, but to me it's all pimping.
Pimping is like pornography...its hard to say exactly what it is but I know it when I see it.
 
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One thing about pimping in the right setting is that it gives the pimpee the chance to say what they do know. This makes them look good, and saves the pimper the time that would be used to teach that point. I think it's really about the attitudes of both the pimpee and the pimper.

And, yes, as an M4, I did ask M3s if they knew such-and-such. But not in front of a group, and not with the expectation that they would know the answer. It was a great way to initiate some teaching, which M4s SHOULD be doing. Of course, 95% of M4s teaching M3s is stuff like how to call for Path results or where the free food is...
 
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