Having a crisis - feeling unproductive in lab and papers are just not coming out

[MacroPhagoCytosis]

So...I'm growing increasingly worried about applying this upcoming cycle and I'm struggling with feelings of unproductivity and stagnation in lab. This is more of a rant/vent, so thanks in advance for reading through this monstrosity if you do, but tldr: My projects are not going to be published anytime soon, I am very frustrated because there's nothing really I can do about it, and I feel like not having these papers will make me substantially less competitive for top MD/PhD programs. Should I be worried or am I just overthinking this?

I'm a junior that's worked in my lab since high school, and I love it, I love the people and the research. But coming into my junior year, I really expected (and thought) this year would be the year where everything started falling into place, in terms of tangible research accomplishments and productivity. I've been working my butt off on this one project since even before freshman year and it has been through so many ups and downs, and finally it's at a place where we have enough decent data to start writing. But the grad student that I've basically been collaborating on this project with (who is the one actually writing the manuscript) is defending soon and all her energy is going to be channeled into writing her thesis. This is a project that I've poured so much time and effort into over the past 3 years and it's getting to the point where it's incredibly frustrating that it's not already all coming together, and at a point where I feel like it's out of my hands and I can't do anything more or generate any more meaningful data. The plan is to polish up what we have and tie up some loose ends and write it over the summer. We were supposed to write this paper in Dec and I was really relying on it being at least submitted by the time I applied. And moving onnn from this project into something more independent.

There's another project that I had been working on more or less independently in sophomore year, that got sidelined by the pandemic, but I brought up the idea of publishing it in my school's undergrad research journal and my PI suggested putting the data together and publishing it in a "real" journal, which is exciting and unexpected because it's not a lot of data and what's there isn't very thrilling and I thought it was going to be a waste of a year's worth of work. I'm still not even sure if there's actually enough to put a paper together or if it's even worth it to do more, because I haven't been able to get into the weeds about it yet with my PI and the collaborating PI because my PI has been obsessively writing non-stop grants since November and it feels like there is no time to actually sit down and talk with her about it.

And of course there's my review paper that is partway written but is now so far on the backburner for my PI, who knows when that'll actually happen. My lab is i n c r e d i b l y slow with getting out papers in general, we are so behind in terms of how many years ago data was generated for papers that are coming out now.

But basically, I'm just very frustrated that none of these projects are coming to fruition, and while I believe sometime during my senior year at least one of these papers will eventually be published, I really wanted to have these in before I applied this cycle (and I thought there was a chance they could be). Especially because the amount of work and time I've put into these projects over so many years has not yielded any meaningful publications! I don't want someone to think why has this person been working in this lab for 3000 hours but only has a measly 4th author pub from 1.5 years ago that was barely even their own science and happened to get on it because of purely being in the right place at the right time. Or to think that I'm not as good of a scientist or don't have the potential to be a great scientist.

I know everyone says papers aren't everything, and yes, that is true, but at this point it's more about how I know I've put so much into this research that something should have come out of it by now, right? And I find it hard to believe that papers don't matter for those uber-competitive programs that of course I would love to (and want to) go to. I feel like I've done everything else I could in my journey thus far, I have a 4.0, I'm taking my MCAT soon but I've been scoring 520+ on practice FLs, I am incredibly passionate about lab and about the other extracurriculars I'm involved in, I've presented at like 14 conferences and won presentation/travel awards, I won the Goldwater. But these publications continue to evade me. I'm stressed out because I feel like I'm just sitting waiting for something to happen with these projects, and that I should be doing more, or working harder or something to get these papers out, but it's frustrating because they're mostly out of my hands.

And I know I could always take a gap year and then have these papers out by the time I apply, but I feel SO ready for grad school and med school and I just want to move on with my life and do more. But at the same time (especially because I come from a run-of-the-mill state school and don't have that academic inbreeding on my side), I want to give myself the best chance possible to get into the best programs possible and get that glossy academic career everyone dreams about.

Someone please tell me it's going to be okay and that this is just a normal part of science because I'm feeling pretty demoralized.

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[deleted819639]

Sorry to hear you're feeling frustrated and demoralized. FWIW, I was in almost exact same shoes as you; I worked in the same lab for four years in UG, but I couldn't get any publication(s) until I was nearly done with my application cycle during my gap year due to various reasons. Looking back, I suspect that being on a pub as an undergrad is more luck than anything (i.e. being in the right lab at the right time) because it is much harder to drive an independent project/manuscript forward as an undergrad.

Fortunately, I don't think your lack of pubs would significantly affect your chances for a MD-PhD program. As long as you are able to talk about your projects in an intelligent manner during your interviews, all of your faculty interviewers will understand why your publications are delayed, especially during COVID. No one will judge your potential as a scientist because you couldn't a get "meaningful" publication as an undergrad! If you are still concerned, I would consider emphasizing your experience presenting at multiple conferences + mentioning that your manuscript is "in preparation" or "submitted" as appropriate. If you are fortunate enough to get your work published while you're applying, immediately sending an update letter to the programs would also be a good idea.

 

[Lampstrike]

I just want to second the idea that many very successful MD-PhD applicants (i.e. multiple T5 MSTP acceptances) have been in your shoes with great stats/accolades/extracurriculars, but no impactful publications. Most of us are still working to get those first papers published as first-year students right now. No one is going to hold your lack of authorship as an undergrad against you (even if we weren't in a pandemic). As long as your PI is able to write about your dedication to research and how prepared you are to be a grad student in their LOR, you are going to do great in the cycle.

 

[tr]

Especially because the amount of work and time I've put into these projects over so many years has not yielded any meaningful publications!

Bog-standard

I don't want someone to think why has this person been working in this lab for 3000 hours but only has a measly 4th author pub from 1.5 years ago that was barely even their own science and happened to get on it because of purely being in the right place at the right time. Or to think that I'm not as good of a scientist or don't have the potential to be a great scientist.

Nobody will think that, because most people are aware that undergraduate authorships are almost universally a result of being in the right place at the right time, just like the one you have.

The timeframe of years you describe is extremely common, doesn't sound like an outlier by any means. Even putting in several years in the same lab as you have (which is great!) isn't necessarily enough time to complete a publication. As long as you can describe your research in an intelligent way you will be fine.

 

[MacroPhagoCytosis]

The timeframe of years you describe is extremely common, doesn't sound like an outlier by any means. Even putting in several years in the same lab as you have (which is great!) isn't necessarily enough time to complete a publication. As long as you can describe your research in an intelligent way you will be fine.

I see, thank you for your insight. I guess I just wanted to be the outlier, but in the positive direction haha, and it's hard coming to terms with the fact that that is not really going to be something that's within my control.

 

[MacroPhagoCytosis]

Sorry to hear you're feeling frustrated and demoralized. FWIW, I was in almost exact same shoes as you; I worked in the same lab for four years in UG, but I couldn't get any publication(s) until I was nearly done with my application cycle during my gap year due to various reasons. Looking back, I suspect that being on a pub as an undergrad is more luck than anything (i.e. being in the right lab at the right time) because it is much harder to drive an independent project/manuscript forward as an undergrad.

Fortunately, I don't think your lack of pubs would significantly affect your chances for a MD-PhD program. As long as you are able to talk about your projects in an intelligent manner during your interviews, all of your faculty interviewers will understand why your publications are delayed, especially during COVID. No one will judge your potential as a scientist because you couldn't a get "meaningful" publication as an undergrad! If you are still concerned, I would consider emphasizing your experience presenting at multiple conferences + mentioning that your manuscript is "in preparation" or "submitted" as appropriate. If you are fortunate enough to get your work published while you're applying, immediately sending an update letter to the programs would also be a good idea.

I just want to second the idea that many very successful MD-PhD applicants (i.e. multiple T5 MSTP acceptances) have been in your shoes with great stats/accolades/extracurriculars, but no impactful publications. Most of us are still working to get those first papers published as first-year students right now. No one is going to hold your lack of authorship as an undergrad against you (even if we weren't in a pandemic). As long as your PI is able to write about your dedication to research and how prepared you are to be a grad student in their LOR, you are going to do great in the cycle.

Thank you so much, this really does make me feel better about this.

 

[amethyst131]

This is coming from a current applicant, so take it with a grain of salt.

Would it be worth asking your PI if you can write the manuscript? Having a publication as an undergraduate can be due to luck but can be helped along by taking the initiative. I basically kept pestering my graduate student to help write our manuscript and that sped it along--there really is little difference in the writing abilities of a senior undergrad vs a grad student. I'd suggest looking up some manuscript writing guides or previous manuscripts from your lab for guidance. Writing this manuscript will 1) help contextualize your data and make writing your AMCAS research statement more cohesive 2) move you up in authorship (not that that really matters) 3) help you talk about your research in interviews.

 

[Lucca]

didnt have any papers where I applied, interviewed and was accepted at several "top" MSTPs. Papers help but they aren't the only thing on your app (hopefully!!!!)

I've known many PhD students whove had to abandon projects at dead ends after 2-3 years of full-time graduate work into them. I've abandoned projects myself after a full year of work on it. It's the nature of the job. It sucks, but it is the way it is. If you are doing your best, learning, and keeping up with the literature to try to understand how to make a project go forward you are doing all you can. After that you need experience, funding, and time -- all things a UG or Postbacc do not have in abundance.

 

[Reckoner]

Someone please tell me it's going to be okay and that this is just a normal part of science because I'm feeling pretty demoralized.

It's going to be okay and this is a very normal part of science
The main project I worked on while applying to MSTPs (in 2013!!) still hasn't been published
I applied with no publications and did fine

 

[Lampstrike]

This is coming from a current applicant, so take it with a grain of salt.

Would it be worth asking your PI if you can write the manuscript? Having a publication as an undergraduate can be due to luck but can be helped along by taking the initiative. I basically kept pestering my graduate student to help write our manuscript and that sped it along--there really is little difference in the writing abilities of a senior undergrad vs a grad student. I'd suggest looking up some manuscript writing guides or previous manuscripts from your lab for guidance. Writing this manuscript will 1) help contextualize your data and make writing your AMCAS research statement more cohesive 2) move you up in authorship (not that that really matters) 3) help you talk about your research in interviews.

This can be a decent idea, if your grad student/postdoc is not that interested in writing up the work themselves. I have actually been working on a first-author paper myself for the last year or so based on my undergrad work. But, this is a challenging and time-consuming process. Being a first author and writing a manuscript from scratch is multiple orders of magnitude more difficult than second/third authorship which often only requires (in terms of the manuscript itself) drafting up a figure or two and editing a fraction of the text. If you choose to push on and write the piece yourself, be ready to be writing and rewriting 20+ pages of material constantly for many months, designing, iterating, and perfecting dozens of figures and data visualizations, and having to continuously reimagine your conclusions to strike the right balance between overstating your results and crediting your work with the impact it deserves.

Overall, I think this can be a good idea from an experience standpoint because publishing papers is a big part of the rest of your career as a physician-scientist, so imo it is never too early to start developing those skills. But, don't think that this is a quick and easy way to potentially pad your CV in time for applications. This process (especially if it is your first time as a lead) will drain you tremendously more than you imagine.

 

[MacroPhagoCytosis]

This is coming from a current applicant, so take it with a grain of salt.

Would it be worth asking your PI if you can write the manuscript? Having a publication as an undergraduate can be due to luck but can be helped along by taking the initiative. I basically kept pestering my graduate student to help write our manuscript and that sped it along--there really is little difference in the writing abilities of a senior undergrad vs a grad student. I'd suggest looking up some manuscript writing guides or previous manuscripts from your lab for guidance. Writing this manuscript will 1) help contextualize your data and make writing your AMCAS research statement more cohesive 2) move you up in authorship (not that that really matters) 3) help you talk about your research in interviews.

This can be a decent idea, if your grad student/postdoc is not that interested in writing up the work themselves. I have actually been working on a first-author paper myself for the last year or so based on my undergrad work. But, this is a challenging and time-consuming process. Being a first author and writing a manuscript from scratch is multiple orders of magnitude more difficult than second/third authorship which often only requires (in terms of the manuscript itself) drafting up a figure or two and editing a fraction of the text. If you choose to push on and write the piece yourself, be ready to be writing and rewriting 20+ pages of material constantly for many months, designing, iterating, and perfecting dozens of figures and data visualizations, and having to continuously reimagine your conclusions to strike the right balance between overstating your results and crediting your work with the impact it deserves.

Overall, I think this can be a good idea from an experience standpoint because publishing papers is a big part of the rest of your career as a physician-scientist, so imo it is never too early to start developing those skills. But, don't think that this is a quick and easy way to potentially pad your CV in time for applications. This process (especially if it is your first time as a lead) will drain you tremendously more than you imagine.

So I actually have expressed interest in helping write/writing in for a while now, and I have actually written parts of it/a version of it already, back in Nov when our plan was to put the whole thing together. Technically every semester I have to write up a progress report based on that semester's work, but what I wrote in Nov was basically a whole 15pg manuscript from scratch that took forever to write but was only based on the crappy data we had up until then. Our direction has changed somewhat since then so I'm not sure how much of what I've written will be used in the final version. I've also pretty much been the one making (and remaking and remaking) all of the figures. It almost feels like my grad student is a little bit over this project (she's actually trying to also write another manuscript for a different project rn) and I've been the one driving it forward the last half-year or so. But because this project was essentially a large part of what she proposed for her thesis, she wants to actually be the one to write it all up, first for her thesis, and then use that to write the paper, and my PI agrees. I'm second author technically on this project, but it really has been more of a collaboration than me just contributing a couple of figures. Which makes it feel even more frustrating that I'm just sitting around waiting for it to get written.

I did end up writing my other independent project (only parts of that data though) for a paper for my undergrad research journal which will be published there, and if my PI is on board with me writing up an actual paper for that, that will be most of my summer, writing that manuscript and hopefully submitting it sometime in senior year, which would be a first author.

I just think I'm at a weird point of time right now where I have nothing to do in lab because I'm just waiting for other people to start writing or to get back to me about all of these decisions on if I should start writing. And waiting for my PI to finish submitting all of these grants so I can finally have a full conversation with her about these projects and about my plan for my senior thesis :/
Either way, I don't think anything I can do now will push either of them out before I apply, which sucks, but my crisis has abated to an extent.

 

[wondervisions]

I think you should just write the paper. I believe in you.

Don't worry about asking for permission- just write it and then send the draft around for edits.

When it comes time to submit, politely suggest being listed as co-first authors if you do end up writing it.