Decan

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Before you read on, please understand that this is not a political post...I'm just trying to understand the new health care bill. If the moderators think this is inappropriate, please close the thread.

I've looked at several websites for a solid explanation but I'm having a hard time deciphering how this bill has an effect on dentistry (or medicine in general). Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
 

txlonghorn

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As the senate version of the bill passed, just search for some old posts about this. It has been discussed in some detail. In summary, there are pilot programs that will be funded for mid level dental providers in this version of the bill.
 

NonTradHopeful

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Before you read on, please understand that this is not a political post...I'm just trying to understand the new health care bill. If the moderators think this is inappropriate, please close the thread.

I've looked at several websites for a solid explanation but I'm having a hard time deciphering how this bill has an effect on dentistry (or medicine in general). Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
Found this article online. Not sure how legitimate the source is, but it may help:

http://www.wallerlaw.com/articles/2009/12/14/healthcare-reform-and-dentistry-how-pending-legislation-may-impact-the-dental-delivery-and-payment-systems.109340
 

zebrafish

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I would suggest looking at the american student dental association website. asdablog.org I went to asda nationals last week and the went over exactly what is in the bill that effects our careers and then wrote about it on the blog. hope that helps
 

OceanDMD

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This is the best "cliffnoted" description of the POS I have read:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=711996&page=2

From what I can gather, the Bill/Law does not have a major affect on dentistry, but is going to affect EVERYONE in a major way regardless. There is a reason why the majority is against, and anyone in medicine or dentistry should educate themselves why this is bad (keep the altruism out of it). Come Novemeber, there should be an obvious choice who needs kicked out of office.

Dont get me wrong, it would be nice to have everyone covered with insurance, but you cant bankrupt and socialize everyone doing it. This is not constitutional.
 

sarah_bellum

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From ADEA:
STATEMENT OF SANDRA C. ANDRIEU, M.Ed., Ph.D.
President
American Dental Education Association
On the Passage of Health Care Reform Legislation

March 21, 2010

Two years ago, the American Dental Education Association (ADEA) entered the national debate on reforming the U.S. health care system. The cornerstone of ADEA‘s position, as approved by the ADEA House of Delegates in March 2009, was that any comprehensive health care reform proposal should provide universal coverage to all Americans and access to high-quality, cost effective oral health care services.

Tonight, the House of Representatives approved health care reform legislation (H.R. 3590 and H.R. 4872) that will affect significant and positive change in our health care system and shatter the status quo. It is not a perfect response to ADEA's advocacy. It is, unquestionably, a critical step in the right direction. The legislation extends coverage to nearly all U.S. citizens, includes important provisions related to improving their oral health, addresses key issues of importance to academic dental institutions, and is entirely compatible with the Guiding Principles for Health Care Reform adopted by ADEA's House of Delegates.

In our judgment, the benefits that our fellow citizens will accrue from this legislation certainly outweigh its imperfections. The age-old admonition not to allow the good to be the enemy of the perfect holds especially true today. The American Dental Education Association, therefore, is pleased with the outcome of the lengthy congressional debate. We applaud the efforts of the House of Representatives and the Obama Administration in passing this historic legislation. The U.S. Senate should quickly pass the reconciliation bill, H.R. 4872, to conclude the health care reform legislative process.

Containing significant provisions for which ADEA has been advocating, the health care reform legislation approved today by the House of Representatives will:

• Require insurance plans to include pediatric oral health services for children up to 21 years of age

• Require essential health benefits package to include: ambulatory patient services; emergency services; hospitalization; maternity and newborn care; mental health and substance use disorders; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; prevention and wellness services and chronic disease management; pediatric services, including oral and vision care

• Expand Medicaid eligibility for adults and children

• Increase federal support to states to pay for expanded Medicaid coverage

• Extend the Children Health Insurance Program for five years

• Establish an oral health prevention program and fund states to develop oral health leadership

• Enhance oral health data systems

• Improve the delivery of oral health

• Implement dental sealants, water fluoridation and preventive programs

• Establish a five-year national, public education campaign focused on oral health care prevention and education and targeted to certain populations, including children, the elderly, and pregnant women

• Award demonstration grants in consultation with professional oral health organizations to eligible entities to demonstrate the effectiveness of research-based dental caries disease management activities

• Authorize the Medicaid and CHIP Payment and Access Commission (MACPAC) to review payments for dental services in Medicaid and CHIP

• Establish a process for updating payments to dental health professionals

• Reaffirm that dentists will be members of the Commission

• Establish a separate dental section and funding line of $30 million for training in general, pediatric, and public health dentistry

• Increase eligibility for new grant programs in the Title VII Health Professions Programs to train dental and allied dental health professionals

• Make dental schools eligible for federal grants for pre-doctoral training, faculty development, dental faculty loan repayment, and academic administrative units, grants currently available only to medical schools

• Modify current law to allow hospitals to count dental and medical resident time spent in didactic (scholarly) activities toward Indirect Medical Education (IME) costs in hospital settings and toward Direct Graduate Medical Education (D-GME) in non-hospital settings (dental school clinics)

• Extend the National Health Service Corps (NHSC) and increase funding for its scholarship and loan repayment program by $2.7 billion over five years
• Reauthorize the Indian Health Service (HIS) and allow for the election by Indian tribes and tribal organizations in a State to employ dental health aide therapists when authorized under State law

• Authorize grants to establish training programs for alternative dental health care providers to increase access to dental health care services in rural, tribal, and underserved communities

• Reauthorize the Centers of Excellence (COE) program which develops a minority applicant pool to enhance recruitment, training, academic performance and other support for minorities interested in careers in health and fund it at $50 million

• Increase funding from $37 million to $51 million over five years for Health Professions Training for Diversity which provides scholarships for disadvantaged students who commit to work in medically underserved areas as primary care providers, and expands loan repayments for individuals who will serve as faculty in eligible institutions

• Exempt dental coverage from the premium amounts subject to excise tax on high cost insurance plans

For two years, the American Dental Education Association has raised its voice in the halls of Congress and at the White House in support of systemic health care reform that includes essential oral health benefits for all Americans. The reform that has been set into motion today is, ADEA believes, the beginning of creating such a system and fulfilling our vision.
 

Impulse155

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From ADEA:
STATEMENT OF SANDRA C. ANDRIEU, M.Ed., Ph.D.
President
American Dental Education Association
On the Passage of Health Care Reform Legislation

March 21, 2010

Two years ago, the American Dental Education Association (ADEA) entered the national debate on reforming the U.S. health care system. The cornerstone of ADEA‘s position, as approved by the ADEA House of Delegates in March 2009, was that any comprehensive health care reform proposal should provide universal coverage to all Americans and access to high-quality, cost effective oral health care services.

Tonight, the House of Representatives approved health care reform legislation (H.R. 3590 and H.R. 4872) that will affect significant and positive change in our health care system and shatter the status quo. It is not a perfect response to ADEA’s advocacy. It is, unquestionably, a critical step in the right direction. The legislation extends coverage to nearly all U.S. citizens, includes important provisions related to improving their oral health, addresses key issues of importance to academic dental institutions, and is entirely compatible with the Guiding Principles for Health Care Reform adopted by ADEA’s House of Delegates.

In our judgment, the benefits that our fellow citizens will accrue from this legislation certainly outweigh its imperfections. The age-old admonition not to allow the good to be the enemy of the perfect holds especially true today. The American Dental Education Association, therefore, is pleased with the outcome of the lengthy congressional debate. We applaud the efforts of the House of Representatives and the Obama Administration in passing this historic legislation. The U.S. Senate should quickly pass the reconciliation bill, H.R. 4872, to conclude the health care reform legislative process.

Containing significant provisions for which ADEA has been advocating, the health care reform legislation approved today by the House of Representatives will:

• Require insurance plans to include pediatric oral health services for children up to 21 years of age

• Require essential health benefits package to include: ambulatory patient services; emergency services; hospitalization; maternity and newborn care; mental health and substance use disorders; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; prevention and wellness services and chronic disease management; pediatric services, including oral and vision care

• Expand Medicaid eligibility for adults and children

• Increase federal support to states to pay for expanded Medicaid coverage

• Extend the Children Health Insurance Program for five years

• Establish an oral health prevention program and fund states to develop oral health leadership

• Enhance oral health data systems

• Improve the delivery of oral health

• Implement dental sealants, water fluoridation and preventive programs

• Establish a five-year national, public education campaign focused on oral health care prevention and education and targeted to certain populations, including children, the elderly, and pregnant women

• Award demonstration grants in consultation with professional oral health organizations to eligible entities to demonstrate the effectiveness of research-based dental caries disease management activities

• Authorize the Medicaid and CHIP Payment and Access Commission (MACPAC) to review payments for dental services in Medicaid and CHIP

• Establish a process for updating payments to dental health professionals

• Reaffirm that dentists will be members of the Commission

• Establish a separate dental section and funding line of $30 million for training in general, pediatric, and public health dentistry

• Increase eligibility for new grant programs in the Title VII Health Professions Programs to train dental and allied dental health professionals

• Make dental schools eligible for federal grants for pre-doctoral training, faculty development, dental faculty loan repayment, and academic administrative units, grants currently available only to medical schools

• Modify current law to allow hospitals to count dental and medical resident time spent in didactic (scholarly) activities toward Indirect Medical Education (IME) costs in hospital settings and toward Direct Graduate Medical Education (D-GME) in non-hospital settings (dental school clinics)

• Extend the National Health Service Corps (NHSC) and increase funding for its scholarship and loan repayment program by $2.7 billion over five years
• Reauthorize the Indian Health Service (HIS) and allow for the election by Indian tribes and tribal organizations in a State to employ dental health aide therapists when authorized under State law

• Authorize grants to establish training programs for alternative dental health care providers to increase access to dental health care services in rural, tribal, and underserved communities

• Reauthorize the Centers of Excellence (COE) program which develops a minority applicant pool to enhance recruitment, training, academic performance and other support for minorities interested in careers in health and fund it at $50 million

• Increase funding from $37 million to $51 million over five years for Health Professions Training for Diversity which provides scholarships for disadvantaged students who commit to work in medically underserved areas as primary care providers, and expands loan repayments for individuals who will serve as faculty in eligible institutions

• Exempt dental coverage from the premium amounts subject to excise tax on high cost insurance plans

For two years, the American Dental Education Association has raised its voice in the halls of Congress and at the White House in support of systemic health care reform that includes essential oral health benefits for all Americans. The reform that has been set into motion today is, ADEA believes, the beginning of creating such a system and fulfilling our vision.
I fully read this for one reason, to see if it says anywhere "increase the seats in dental school"
And im disapointed.
 

kato999

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I fully read this for one reason, to see if it says anywhere "increase the seats in dental school"
And im disapointed.
I assume your disappointment is because the bill doesn't increase your chances to become a dentist. However, once you get into dental school you will be happy the number of seats are limited when in your 4th year you realize there aren't many lucrative jobs out there without a bunch of applicants.

As far as increasing the number of dentists that graduate every year, they've done it before and it doesn't address the access problem.

If they want dentists to practice in remote locations it's pretty simple. Increase reimbursement rates to do so. Plus, people often times live across the street from a dentist that is accepting new patients, and they still won't go.

It's not a patient to doctor ratio thing, it's a motivation/education/fear issue.
 

jay47

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I assume your disappointment is because the bill doesn't increase your chances to become a dentist. However, once you get into dental school you will be happy the number of seats are limited when in your 4th year you realize there aren't many lucrative jobs out there without a bunch of applicants.

As far as increasing the number of dentists that graduate every year, they've done it before and it doesn't address the access problem.

If they want dentists to practice in remote locations it's pretty simple. Increase reimbursement rates to do so. Plus, people often times live across the street from a dentist that is accepting new patients, and they still won't go.

It's not a patient to doctor ratio thing, it's a motivation/education/fear issue.
Very true.
 

angelnyc89

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Thanks for starting this thread, I was wondering how it was going to affect Dentistry. But do all Dentist (general, cosmetica, oral surgeon, etc) have to accept the public health insurance (Im not sure what this healthcare reform bill is called)? I was discussing this with a pre-med student at school and said every dr (md, dds, dmd, etc) had to accept this insurance.
 

David1991

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I'm still kind of confused as to what this will mean exactly for dentists. I see all the points but in the end what does it do to dentists? Will they be losing money from it, will things be more difficult, etc.?
 

heatwheat

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I'm still kind of confused as to what this will mean exactly for dentists. I see all the points but in the end what does it do to dentists? Will they be losing money from it, will things be more difficult, etc.?
Yes, we will be losing money undoubtedly. A pilot program for mid-level providers will begin as part of this bill. This means, basically, that people who are not dentists will be able to do dental procedures. This will take business away from us as real dentists.
 

DrJeff

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Thanks for starting this thread, I was wondering how it was going to affect Dentistry. But do all Dentist (general, cosmetica, oral surgeon, etc) have to accept the public health insurance (Im not sure what this healthcare reform bill is called)? I was discussing this with a pre-med student at school and said every dr (md, dds, dmd, etc) had to accept this insurance.
As of yet, no you don't have to accept public health insurance if you don't want to (and that is also true for our medical colleagues too)

The way that this gov't is going these days, my statement above may not apply in the future, and may become a contingency (accepting medicaid) upon one's license :eek:
 

David1991

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Yes, we will be losing money undoubtedly. A pilot program for mid-level providers will begin as part of this bill. This means, basically, that people who are not dentists will be able to do dental procedures. This will take business away from us as real dentists.
So what will be the point of even paying real dentists if it can get done for less money?
 

David1991

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Would you let a nurse take out your spleen?
Well if it's like that then there's already dental hygienists..so what's the difference?

Also how significant do you guys think this will be? I almost never hear anything good about going into this field anymore :(
 

OceanDMD

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Well if it's like that then there's already dental hygienists..so what's the difference?

Also how significant do you guys think this will be? I almost never hear anything good about going into this field anymore :(
250k/year , 4 8-10 hour workdays a week, and you dont hear anything good about this field? Who dropped you on your head? Cosmetics, invisalign, so many options to choose from as far as how you want to practice.

Hygienists typically dont cut on teeth, are not trained to treat infections, take out teeth, RCT, etc....etc..... Why dont you do a little research before you come dropping opinion not worth responding to. What am I doing?
 
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Well if it's like that then there's already dental hygienists..so what's the difference?
A dental hygienist is a technician, who cleans teeth. (2-4 years of post high school education)
A dentist is a doctor who does surgeries and practices dental medicine. (8+ years of post high school education)

I don't know about you, but i don't want a technician cutting my gums and pulling out my teeth, but unfortunately the people in Washington think otherwise.
 

David1991

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250k/year , 4 8-10 hour workdays a week, and you dont hear anything good about this field? Who dropped you on your head? Cosmetics, invisalign, so many options to choose from as far as how you want to practice.

Hygienists typically dont cut on teeth, are not trained to treat infections, take out teeth, RCT, etc....etc..... Why dont you do a little research before you come dropping opinion not worth responding to. What am I doing?
damn man relax, why get so offended? The reasons you mentioned are precisely why I'm going into this field. but it seems like I'm constantly hearing about how in the future we won't be able to have as much leeway and won't be making as much money.

As for the comment about the hygienists, obviously I don't think they could do what dentists do, I'm just responding to one of the above posts because they said lesser trained people will start doing dentist's procedures...is that not true?
 
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damn man relax, why get so offended? The reasons you mentioned are precisely why I'm going into this field. but it seems like I'm constantly hearing about how in the future we won't be able to have as much leeway and won't be making as much money.

As for the comment about the hygienists, obviously I don't think they could do what dentists do, I'm just responding to one of the above posts because they said lesser trained people will start doing dentist's procedures...is that not true?

Yes and it is also true PAs have there own practices now(with an MD visit annually) and have been doing surgery and nurse practitioners are going to replace GPs haha
 

David1991

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Yes and it is also true PAs have there own practices now(with an MD visit annually) and have been doing surgery and nurse practitioners are going to replace GPs haha
So is this just sarcasm? If so then I don't even get what the other person was saying about dentists losing parts of their jobs to lesser trained individuals
 
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So is this just sarcasm? If so then I don't even get what the other person was saying about dentists losing parts of their jobs to lesser trained individuals
which part don't you understand? essentially, these dental therapists or even the advanced hygenists are gonna take away from the business of dentistry. Personally, I already think its a crock that you have to pay 350K for school, then come out making 100-120K and on avg make 200K. Factor in these dental therapists and you have a bogus profession that has been devalued, just like family medicine.
 

David1991

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which part don't you understand? essentially, these dental therapists or even the advanced hygenists are gonna take away from the business of dentistry. Personally, I already think its a crock that you have to pay 350K for school, then come out making 100-120K and on avg make 200K. Factor in these dental therapists and you have a bogus profession that has been devalued, just like family medicine.
Yea and this is the kind of stuff I was talking about above and then someone else got upset about it. It seems like these fields are just continuously getting worse from all the crap I hear
 

jay47

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Yea and this is the kind of stuff I was talking about above and then someone else got upset about it. It seems like these fields are just continuously getting worse from all the crap I hear
I wouldn't say that family medicine is "devalued", maybe under appreciated is a better term. It takes at least 10 years to just go into family medicine, and what sort of quality of life do you get? Not very much, plus huge debt and long hours.

I once saw a news channel reporting on a FM doctor who had hired around 8 people JUST to fill out forms and paperwork. Insurance industry overhaul is what we needed in this country- not billions for new programs. I'm very disappointed in Obama. :(

This new program with dental therapists is just icing on the cake. They won't have their own malpractice insurance, the quality (not necessarily talent) of individuals will likely not be as high. I think there would be a greater risk for fraud ( and there is already a LARGE risk out there). I'm telling you, 2 years is NOT enough to learn how to drill and fill on real people. You are going to have to have one hell of a rigorous program to get therapists on the ground running after 2 years. I know they used to use real patients much earlier on in dental school curriculum, but they want exceptional capability from the moment we start drilling in real people. You wanna talk about getting sued....geez...I'm afraid these therapists would be at major risk because of less training. Of course, this is different if they must be under the care and direct supervision of a dentist.
 

David1991

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I wouldn't say that family medicine is "devalued", maybe under appreciated is a better term. It takes at least 10 years to just go into family medicine, and what sort of quality of life do you get? Not very much, plus huge debt and long hours.

I once saw a news channel reporting on a FM doctor who had hired around 8 people JUST to fill out forms and paperwork. Insurance industry overhaul is what we needed in this country- not billions for new programs. I'm very disappointed in Obama. :(

This new program with dental therapists is just icing on the cake. They won't have their own malpractice insurance, the quality (not necessarily talent) of individuals will likely not be as high. I think there would be a greater risk for fraud ( and there is already a LARGE risk out there). I'm telling you, 2 years is NOT enough to learn how to drill and fill on real people. You are going to have to have one hell of a rigorous program to get therapists on the ground running after 2 years. I know they used to use real patients much earlier on in dental school curriculum, but they want exceptional capability from the moment we start drilling in real people. You wanna talk about getting sued....geez...I'm afraid these therapists would be at major risk because of less training. Of course, this is different if they must be under the care and direct supervision of a dentist.
So is this change guaranteed? Sorry, I'm not up to date on everything with the health bill and related issues.

I'm only a freshman in college now, but all of the good things I heard about dentistry really led me to want to go into it...but I'm definitely getting worried that by the time I'm in huge debt and getting to actually practice I won't be making much over 100,000 and will have to fight for my job
 

Mudfever

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Yes and it is also true PAs have there own practices now(with an MD visit annually) and have been doing surgery and nurse practitioners are going to replace GPs haha
PA's can run their own clinics with a supervising physician. And yes, the physician only needs to visit occasionally. However, if the PA screws up, fault will fall on the MD. Therefore that MD better trust the PA and/or be ignorant.

PA's can only first assist in surgery. They can open and close without an MD in the room, but they cannot soley perform a procedure.
 
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I guess we'll just have to see the new competition from less educated practitioners as something dentists can benefit from - market segregation. Want low cost / govt. sponsored oral care? Take your chances with a trained hygienist. Feel like you want your mouth in the hands of a professional? Then accept his/her payment policy and know you're getting the best of the best.

Here's to hoping at least.
 

DrJeff

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My guess is that immigration will get pushed the day after elections. I don't think they will push it too hard until after elections. A final middle finger to the American public as the super-majority is lost.

Then, they will claim that all doctors that specialize in something other than family medicine are evil and greedy. Isn't it obvious that all of health care's issues can be pinned on medical specialists?
 

jay47

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My guess is that immigration will get pushed the day after elections. I don't think they will push it too hard until after elections. A final middle finger to the American public as the super-majority is lost.

Then, they will claim that all doctors that specialize in something other than family medicine are evil and greedy. Isn't it obvious that all of health care's issues can be pinned on medical specialists?
Hadn't thought about this before, but I think you are right. I was reading somewhere that the percentage of people who pay NO taxes (around 47% by some measurements) will soon rise (if not already) above the percentage who pay taxes. These people will also have voting rights, and therefore they will essentially have control over their own representation for their advancement.

See here:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/24955.html

Don't know much about this site, but seems legit.
 

Simiam

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It could get very nasty. There's a reason why most polls are currently indicating that MOST Americans do not agree with the direction of the country.
 

David1991

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And then you look like a prick if you're prejudice against immigrants...what do they expect

In your opinion would you guys even still recommend to someone to go into these fields anymore?
 
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Hadn't thought about this before, but I think you are right. I was reading somewhere that the percentage of people who pay NO taxes (around 47% by some measurements) will soon rise (if not already) above the percentage who pay taxes. These people will also have voting rights, and therefore they will essentially have control over their own representation for their advancement.

See here:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/24955.html

Don't know much about this site, but seems legit.

Just to clarify: 47% of people don't pay Federal Income Tax. Most of these people do pay payroll tax, capital gains tax and state and local taxes. Not to mention Medicare and Social security. Plus anyone who is employed is having an employer match a serious percentage of these taxes - a massive contribution to the economy. If I understand your post correctly, you are asserting that these people are getting representation without taxation. This is a view that I would have to disagree with.

Estimates are that 10% at most pay no federal taxes. see http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/who-doesnt-pay-taxes/

Hard to imagine that group growing from 10% to overtaking the number of people who currently pay taxes, as you say.
 

OceanDMD

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Just to clarify: 47% of people don't pay Federal Income Tax. Most of these people do pay payroll tax, capital gains tax and state and local taxes. Not to mention Medicare and Social security. Plus anyone who is employed is having an employer match a serious percentage of these taxes - a massive contribution to the economy. If I understand your post correctly, you are asserting that these people are getting representation without taxation. This is a view that I would have to disagree with.

Estimates are that 10% at most pay no federal taxes. see http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/who-doesnt-pay-taxes/

Hard to imagine that group growing from 10% to overtaking the number of people who currently pay taxes, as you say.
You have just cited a blog from the NY times. Hmmmm. DO you really know what your talking about? Payroll taxes are either estimated WITHHOLDINGS(which is basically income tax taken out of the employees checks)
or a payment made directly from the EMPLOYER, which is basically another tax on a business. Are trying to tell me that Payroll tax counts as a tax contribution from an employee???? And second, 17% of the population right now is UNEMPLOYED, so how the hell are only 10% not paying income taxes???????? People most certainly are getting representation without taxaion, and even if 50% is high, I guarantee its closer to 50 than 10%.
 
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You have just cited a blog from the NY times. Hmmmm. DO you really know what your talking about? Payroll taxes are either estimated WITHHOLDINGS(which is basically income tax taken out of the employees checks)
or a payment made directly from the EMPLOYER, which is basically another tax on a business. Are trying to tell me that Payroll tax counts as a tax contribution from an employee???? And second, 17% of the population right now is UNEMPLOYED, so how the hell are only 10% not paying income taxes???????? People most certainly are getting representation without taxaion, and even if 50% is high, I guarantee its closer to 50 than 10%.
I would definitely consider withholding a tax. It is money that a person worked for but that is sent to the US treasury. How is that different than writing a check on April 15?

FYI, unemployment benefits are taxed, so the fact that that there is high unemployment is irrelevant. The unemployed are paying a fair percentage of their income.

Not really sure where you are going with questioning my source.... The NYT blog clearly cites Congressional Budget Office data. Maybe the fact that you "guarantee" otherwise should be reliable proof to the contrary.:laugh:
 

OceanDMD

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I would definitely consider withholding a tax. It is money that a person worked for but that is sent to the US treasury. How is that different than writing a check on April 15?

FYI, unemployment benefits are taxed, so the fact that that there is high unemployment is irrelevant. The unemployed are paying a fair percentage of their income.

Not really sure where you are going with questioning my source.... The NYT blog clearly cites Congressional Budget Office data. Maybe the fact that you "guarantee" otherwise should be reliable proof to the contrary.:laugh:


Unemployment is not earned income, its an ENTITLEMENT, in other words the unemployed are being payed a sum via contribution/taxes from the employer and state/fed, and they give a portion of it back. Its still net negative as far as tax contribution. I really think you dont understand the system.

And withholdings are THE TAX. YOur withholdings are basically estimating what the income tax will be versus what your deductions will be by the end of the year. In other words, if your tax return at the end of the year is over 2k, your withholding estimate is wrong. Its better to get more money during the beginning of the tax year with a bigger paycheck (investment potential, pay off debt accumulating interest) than a big tax return.

NY times is worse than fox. And as far as the CBO, we'll see how their estimates for the health care law work out.
 
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Unemployment is not earned income, its an ENTITLEMENT, in other words the unemployed are being payed a sum via contribution/taxes from the employer and state/fed, and they give a portion of it back. Its still net negative as far as tax contribution. I really think you dont understand the system.

And withholdings are THE TAX. YOur withholdings are basically estimating what the income tax will be versus what your deductions will be by the end of the year. In other words, if your tax return at the end of the year is over 2k, your withholding estimate is wrong. Its better to get more money during the beginning of the tax year with a bigger paycheck (investment potential, pay off debt accumulating interest) than a big tax return.

NY times is worse than fox. And as far as the CBO, we'll see how their estimates for the health care law work out.

Being paid a sum and giving a portion of it back perfectly describes taxation. The number of people not being taxed is at most 10%, not 47% as some would have you believe. End of story.
 
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What will be the new tax brackets for the upper income? if I remember it correctly it was 35% under Bush administration, will it be 41% in 2011?
 

DrJeff

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What will be the new tax brackets for the upper income? if I remember it correctly it was 35% under Bush administration, will it be 41% in 2011?
The non partisan Tax Policy Center has estimated that by 2020, if all these entitlement programs are kept in place, and the current scheme of just getting "the rich" to pay for things is kept at current levels, that the national debt will approach 20 TRILLION dollars (approx 90% of projected GDP :eek: ) to keep the entitlements as is, and bring the debt down to under 5% of GDP, it's estimated that with the current tax scheme (just get the rich to pay for it) that the top tax rates would be between 70-75% :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: )