help! american highschooler - uk undergrad and then uk med school?

[qcurlyq]

hey everyone, i would appreciate your help SO much:

i am an american senior in highschool currently applying to university, and i am slightly confused by the different medical school systems in the us and uk. i hope to attend medical school in the uk, but i do not have the full credentials to apply to the 5-6 year programs straight out of highschool as uk students would (3 ap's - i have only taken 2 ap tests from my 2 classes last year and though i have scored 5's on each, the 2 ap classes i am currently taking this year do not test until much after the application process). also, i have unfortunately missed the new ukcat registration deadline!

i have always wanted to attend st. andrews university in scotland - would it be possible for me to complete and undergrad degree in biology at st. andrews and then apply to uk medical schools with an undergrad degree? or must you attend med school straight from highschool in the uk?

also, if for some reason i had to return to the states, how feasible would it be to complete medical school in the uk and return to the states for residency?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[UKPharmGirl]

Yes, in the UK you have one of two routes to get into Medical school. First, you can go straight into it from college. This would be a 5 year course at most universities. Second, is called the post-graduate route. After you have done your degree, you can go into medicine as a post-graduate student. Depending on the univerities, some will offer a fast-track medicine course that is 4 years long for post-graduates especially. However, remember that admission to this will still depend on how well you pass your first degree.

Unfortunately I don't know anything about UK to US residency.

 

[VeerTheTIGuy]

first of all - YEAH st andrews!

secondly:
a lot of people who come here to do bio/neuroscience end up doing medicine as a postgrad. a lot of times, if you're really dedicated and get in contact with the right people, if you do really well in first year, you can start medicine the year after.

also, i know some schools offer a "pre-med" year before starting med school, so you might look into those as well

good luck and if you get into st andrews get in touch!

 

[UKPharmGirl]

Yes that too, I forgot the pre-med, sorry.

 

[omniatlas]

You could always try schools with linkage programs; I'm currently attending IMU (http://www.imu.edu.my) which has linkage programs with many UK universities including Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, and St. George -- you finish your first two and a half years (pre-clinical) then apply to your partner medical school.

However, I don't know how you'll feel about living in a different country. I am an American graduate but a Malaysian citizen and decided to come back to my country because of family & the affordability of the University. I am sure there are other linkage programs around that might help save you time and money.

If you have any other questions, do not hesitate to ask.

 

[drbruce]

You could go through the post grad route or a better option might be to do a foundation year instead. It is certainly shorter and easier than doing than a 3 year degree.

But why do you want to get your degree in the UK when the US has so many good medical schools? Med school places here are very limited and therefore competition is even worse than in America. Getting a residency of your choice won't be easy. The American system discriminates against doctors from other countries, with all the top residency places going to students who studied under the USA system. It is not impossible though. The fact that you come from America might grease the wheels a little but having said that, the first two years of medical school here won't prepare you at all for the USMLE Step 1 and you will almost certainly need to do a lot of extra studying. I know this to be the case because I'm considering doing the USMLE exam myself and have bought the Kaplan lecture series, along with the First Aid Step 1 Book.

And I'm not sure UK med schools accept foreign students from G7 countries, including the US. You might be in for a hard time unless you have a British passport somwhere in your possession, which entitles you to all the benefits of being a home student.

 

[JediBookworm]

To clarify: even if you have a EU or UK passport you need to have resided within the EU for at least 3 years prior to commencement of the studies that you're applying for now to be considered a "home student".

 

[VeerTheTIGuy]

And I'm not sure UK med schools accept foreign students from G7 countries, including the US. You might be in for a hard time unless you have a British passport somwhere in your possession, which entitles you to all the benefits of being a home student.

I'm a US citizen studying in the UK with no ties to the british government other than a Student Visa I obtained after being accepted into university here. The fees are a LOT higher than Home (UK/EU) students though (my parents had to shell out 16,100 pounds this year...)

 

[ramekin]

And I'm not sure UK med schools accept foreign students from G7 countries, including the US. You might be in for a hard time unless you have a British passport somwhere in your possession, which entitles you to all the benefits of being a home student.

It makes no difference if an applicant is from a G7 country, so long as they meet the matriculation requirements. This occassionally creates problems for US applicants because not all UK institutions recognise US undergraduate degrees as acceptable for entry.

To be considered a Home student (and subsequently avoid the 20,000+ GBP fees) you need to have resided permanently in the UK for the past 3 years. You could be a British passport-holder and still be considered an international student if you've not lived in the UK for the past 3 years.

 

[asif7083]

Im having a hard time finding relavent information regarding to Medical school in the UK for US students. Ive gone to their websites and was wondering if there was a specific thing (word, term etc) that I should look out for?

Sorry for the vagueness.

 

[drbruce]

Hi
I doubt the med schools will include in their information reference to "US students" specifically but they might mention something about thier intake of students from developed countries. Considering the small number of places, entry requirements are very strict, especially for foreign and mature students. If you are "superstar" you might have a chance. I know that some foreign students in my school also took the SAT test and scored higher than 1500 on the first exam. My advice is to phone up the medical school reception and speak to the admissions tutor personally. They will have a better idea of your chances. As a rule, most medical schools don't accept US students. So call up each one in turn and find out directly about their policies regarding foreign students from G7 countries.

 

[asif7083]

I figured as much. Thanks.

 

[VeerTheTIGuy]

To be considered a Home student (and subsequently avoid the 20,000+ GBP fees) you need to have resided permanently in the UK for the past 3 years. You could be a British passport-holder and still be considered an international student if you've not lived in the UK for the past 3 years.

I don't think this is necessarily true. I have lots of friends who are dual US-UK citizens, and though they've lived in the US most of their life (including the last few years for high school), they only pay home fees

 

[neuro2bjc]

Yes, in the UK you have one of two routes to get into Medical school. First, you can go straight into it from college. This would be a 5 year course at most universities. Second, is called the post-graduate route. After you have done your degree, you can go into medicine as a post-graduate student. Depending on the univerities, some will offer a fast-track medicine course that is 4 years long for post-graduates especially. However, remember that admission to this will still depend on how well you pass your first degree.

Unfortunately I don't know anything about UK to US residency.

Once you go directly for 5 years, is that an MBBS degree? Here in the USA we do not get a MBBS but a MD after 8 years, does that mean after someone in the UK gets their MBBS-(yes I know there are other names for it) they continue to go to school for an MD or are MD's not reconized?

 

[medgirl20]

MD his a higher degree by research in the UK and Ireland UK MBBS = US MD

 

[omniatlas]

Are we right to assume UK MD = US Ph.D ?

 

[dr strangelove]

I don't think this is necessarily true. I have lots of friends who are dual US-UK citizens, and though they've lived in the US most of their life (including the last few years for high school), they only pay home fees

If this is the case, I have a friend who would be very, very interested in finding out how. She's a British citizen having lived in the Bahamas for most of her life, but spent a few years - less than 3, attending British secondary school. She got stung for full fees. From my knowledge you can be resident within the EU, not just the UK, for the past 3 years and be a passport holder in order to be entitled to home fees.

 

[qtpie055]

I'm a US citizen studying in the UK with no ties to the british government other than a Student Visa I obtained after being accepted into university here. The fees are a LOT higher than Home (UK/EU) students though (my parents had to shell out 16,100 pounds this year...)

VeerTheTIGuy, are you reading medicine in the UK? If so, are you planning on staying there for postgrad training or coming back to the States for residency? Am going to be a US Med student (US citizen) but want to eventually practice in the UK. Any suggestions? thanks!

 

[Scottish Chap]

Are we right to assume UK MD = US Ph.D ?

Not even close. U.K. MD=2 years of 'a research project'. U.S. PhD=4-6 years of focused research.

 

[JediBookworm]

Yea, I wouldn't be so quick to equate those two on the same level. The UK MD is specifically for practicing doctors, so I'm assuming there is more of a clinical emphasis. It is minimum 2 years full-time. The US PhD is the highest level of research degree for any field/subject that can be taken by "anyone", and some doctors who pursue academic careers choose to do it. It is minimum 3 years full-time (in the UK).

 

[omniatlas]

VeerTheTIGuy, are you reading medicine in the UK? If so, are you planning on staying there for postgrad training or coming back to the States for residency? Am going to be a US Med student (US citizen) but want to eventually practice in the UK. Any suggestions? thanks!

Hey Qtpie; make sure you readup on the new UK work restrictions before you decide to head off to the UK. If you are not a EU passport holder you will not be entitled for a work permit and will be unable to stay in the UK after your F1/F2 post-graduation training.

Yeah, it kind of sucks for the international students who are currently attending UK med schools (and I sympathize for them) and hopefully the situation will change soon.

On a side note since we're talking about titles -- whats up with surgeons in the UK wanting to be called 'Mr.' after their training?

 

[leorl]

Back in the days of yore, surgeons were butchers...lay people. Butchers were addressed "Mr." so that's why current UK surgeons are called Mr.____ . It's a traditional thing. But of course, those of us growing up in the US with all the glory of being called "Dr." think this is kinda funny .

 

[FionaS]

Back in the days of yore, surgeons were butchers...lay people. Butchers were addressed "Mr." so that's why current UK surgeons are called Mr.____ . It's a traditional thing. But of course, those of us growing up in the US with all the glory of being called "Dr." think this is kinda funny .

Barbers actually!

Us people who grew up with the UK system wonder why the US surgeons don't get upset at being called doctor...

But yeah, you didn't need a medical degree to chop people up back in the olden days, so you weren't a doctor.

 

[khl31]

"Mr." has become a symbol of reverse snobbery. as originally pointed out, the first surgeons were barbers (just because they happened to maintain very sharp instruments handy!) and lay-people, and were thus deemed unworthy of the "Dr." honorific.

as surgeons became more professional, in UK, they have clung onto the "Mr." tag as a badge of honour, *choosing* not to be addressed as "Dr." as a snub to the physicians.

re: international medical students in UK, well, i'm currently in that situation, but i'm not particularly fussed. i'm seeing about crossing the pond to train post-graduation, and am currently exploring my options. if the NHS does not appreciate people they have spent 6 years training, i'm certainly not going to hang around and waste all the time i've spent at uni by trying to get abused by the NHS system for the next 10ish years of my life!

 

[Scottish Chap]

"Mr." has become a symbol of reverse snobbery. as originally pointed out, the first surgeons were barbers (just because they happened to maintain very sharp instruments handy!) and lay-people, and were thus deemed unworthy of the "Dr." honorific.

as surgeons became more professional, in UK, they have clung onto the "Mr." tag as a badge of honour, *choosing* not to be addressed as "Dr." as a snub to the physicians.

re: international medical students in UK, well, i'm currently in that situation, but i'm not particularly fussed. i'm seeing about crossing the pond to train post-graduation, and am currently exploring my options. if the NHS does not appreciate people they have spent 6 years training, i'm certainly not going to hang around and waste all the time i've spent at uni by trying to get abused by the NHS system for the next 10ish years of my life!

If your degree was earned in the U.K., keep in mind that's this is an automatic exclusion from almost every U.S. medical school. At the very least, they'll want to see all of the prerequisite subjects completed in the U.S. and >60 credits earned stateside.

 

[FionaS]

I think khl is already a med student - so all he has to do is pass the USMLE and, obviously, the UK medical degree.

 

[khl31]

uh huh, am currently in clinicals at Addie's, exploring options so many exams, so little time

 

[epigastric]

Hey Qtpie; make sure you readup on the new UK work restrictions before you decide to head off to the UK. If you are not a EU passport holder you will not be entitled for a work permit and will be unable to stay in the UK after your F1/F2 post-graduation training.

Yeah, it kind of sucks for the international students who are currently attending UK med schools (and I sympathize for them) and hopefully the situation will change soon.

On a side note since we're talking about titles -- whats up with surgeons in the UK wanting to be called 'Mr.' after their training?

Yeah, this thread's a little old, but more because it was swamped by all the Irish school speculation...

My immediate family is moving back to the UK next year and I've been wondering if I might feel that reverse pull to the continent as well. I have UK full citizenship but haven't lived in the EU since I was 12. I'm planning on attending US medical school and sticking it out here through residency training, if only because in-state tuition sure beats overseas medical school tuition. Since I don't know how the move is going to tip the scales (I admit, I'm a bit homesick too), I'm trying to keep an eye out just in case.

Given that I have the lovely full right to abode, the BMA & GMC "how to practice here" is a bit useless to me. I believe the closest I can find is here:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/join_the_register/eea_nationals_out.asp#4_1

where they inform me that

Please be aware that, under this route, there is no automatic right to registration. Registration is at the discretion of the GMC. You can find more information at Step 2, Section 4 of this web page.

If you are a UK national you should contact us on 08453 573456 (UK calls) + 44 161 923 6602 (International calls) or email us at [email protected] for separate advice.​

I'm exploring theoreticals here and thought contacting them was a bit premature. Has anyone else with dual citizenship looked into US training but UK practice? Is it feasible, or will I be jumping hoops for years?

PS -- I'm aware not all specialties make it across the pond intact; much more interested in the general picture for ex-pats with US medical training returning home.

 

[bigchoader]

After attending a UK medical school for 4 years (GEP) wouldnt you be able to then claim legal residency? I was talking to a kiwi who is working in a hostel in london as I was trying to job search for my gap year, she said that one work permit people try to get is the HSMP (highly skilled migrant program). She said they are good for 4 years after which you can claim legal residency. Once you have legal residency, don't you have a legal right to work? and can't you thus be employed as any other EU person? if not, what good is legal residency if you can't work to support yourself?

 

[epigastric]

After attending a UK medical school for 4 years (GEP) wouldnt you be able to then claim legal residency? I was talking to a kiwi who is working in a hostel in london as I was trying to job search for my gap year, she said that one work permit people try to get is the HSMP (highly skilled migrant program). She said they are good for 4 years after which you can claim legal residency. Once you have legal residency, don't you have a legal right to work? and can't you thus be employed as any other EU person? if not, what good is legal residency if you can't work to support yourself?

Not sure if you're replying to me or not, but my specific issue isn't a lack of residency/work permit, as I'm entitled to that with my UK citizenship, guaranteed.

I want to know how difficult it would be to work as a doctor in the UK if I attend US medical school + residency trainingl, given that I will have UK right of abode (bypassing that new rule of offering first to UK/EU doctors) but non-EU medical credentials (meaning I can't figure out if I can get full registration or am stuck with the limited pathway).

 

[Jollygooddoc]

As a matter of fact, if you are Board Certified in the US, you can come over to the UK and claim your place on the Specialist Register (i.e., have right to apply and be appointed as a consultant). Consultant, btw, is the UK equivalent of an attending.

 

[epigastric]

As a matter of fact, if you are Board Certified in the US, you can come over to the UK and claim your place on the Specialist Register (i.e., have right to apply and be appointed as a consultant). Consultant, btw, is the UK equivalent of an attending.

Ooooh. Thanks much. It's nice to know hanging on to that citizenship would save me some grief if I decide to go back after all.