HELP ME DECIDE: FIU HWCOM Graduate Certificate vs. USF Masters in Medical Sciences (MSMS P3)

[IsaacMaccabee]

Hi All,

I've been accepted to both the Graduate Certificate in Molecular and Biomedical Sciences program at Florida International University (FIU) Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine (HWCOM) and the Masters of Science in Medical Sciences, Pre-Professional Program (MSMS P3/MSP3) at the University of South Florida (USF).

A little bit of my background:
Completed Undergrad in 2005 (Yes, I know I'm old).
Completed Postbacc in 2014, CGPA: 3.94, SGPA: 3.93
No Current MCAT Score (I took the last test offered under the previous format in January 2015 - did not score well, i.e., <30)
Primary Goal: U.S. Medical School
Backup Goal: U.S. Dental School

I'm extremely skeptical of my ability to score well on the MCAT and fear that it will be the biggest obstacle to admission to a U.S. medical school. FIU guarantees an interview to HWCOM if you meet a specified set of criteria, USF does not. FIU is a much smaller class size, roughly 60, compared to USF, roughly 200. Completing USF, I'll have a Masters, FIU only a certificate.

I'm having a tough time deciding which to choose and I would really appreciate any feedback, thank you.

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[IsaacMaccabee]

Additional factors to consider:

FIU: classes meet on Tuesday/Thursday from 12-8, "only" 20 credits required to complete the program, only two semesters
USF: classes meet Monday-Thursday, 32 credits required to complete the program, two semesters plus summer session required

Thank you for any assistance!

 

[rdyotz]

This is a decision you have to make.

More information on your old MCAT would be nice, < 30 is somewhere in the 472-508 range...

What was your cGPA and sGPA for undergrad & for undergrad + postbac? Also, how many courses did you take for postbac?

Do you have something else going on (work, volunteering, etc) where the Tues/Thurs class schedule works better?

Is the geographic area of either beneficial to you?

Some med schools will want a letter of rec or proof of completion from the program before looking at your application - if you had to take a summer semester, this may delay you.

Will one of these programs offer you better career options in case med/dental doesn't work out?

 

[IsaacMaccabee]

This is a decision you have to make.

More information on your old MCAT would be nice, < 30 is somewhere in the 472-508 range...

What was your cGPA and sGPA for undergrad & for undergrad + postbac? Also, how many courses did you take for postbac?

Do you have something else going on (work, volunteering, etc) where the Tues/Thurs class schedule works better?

Is the geographic area of either beneficial to you?

Some med schools will want a letter of rec or proof of completion from the program before looking at your application - if you had to take a summer semester, this may delay you.

Will one of these programs offer you better career options in case med/dental doesn't work out?

Thank you for the reply and taking the time to consider my situation.

I scored a 25 on the old MCAT. How do you think this will translate to the new format?

My cGPA in undergrad was 3.14. I don't have an sGPA as I was an International Affairs/Spanish Language and Literature major. I was an undergrad from 2001-2005, practically a lifetime ago. I don't know how best to calculate my GPA across my undergrad + postbacc. For my postbacc I took all of the science prerequisites (with labs), plus: an algebra and calculus course (A), genetics (A-), biochemistry I (A), Exploration of Space (A), and an English course (A).

I am currently employed full-time, but plan on leaving my job for either program. In my spare time during either program, besides studying for the assigned coursework, my goal is to study for the MCAT. If I still have time left over (highly unlikely), I would definitely try to shadow, volunteer, research, or similar. Perhaps this means the FIU program would be better?

I currently live in Tampa, where USF is, however I have family in Miami/South Florida and I much prefer Miami over Tampa.

Noted on the summer semester factor, delaying anymore is not something I can afford. I think I can be considered a candidate at FIU's med school from the fifth week of the second semester. I view this as the most attractive feature as the USF program offers nothing to the participants at their med school (perhaps even look down at students from the USF program - I heard this from USF med school students).

If med/dental school does not work out, I am of the opinion that both of these programs, whichever I choose, will be a total waste of time as med/dental school is truly my only goal.

Please let me know if you would like any additional information, thank you again.

 

[rdyotz]

For figuring out your AMCAS GPA: drive.google.com/file/d/0B8gjteMLbv0iMlRmd0UzU0cyeDQ/view
You can download and open in Excel and fill it in with all your courses.

Edit: SDN automatically embedded the link, had to edit it as it was annoying,

It's great that all your science classes were from your postbac, that will look good as many schools will weigh sGPA higher. Assuming your postbac was all undergrad courses (no grad stuff), then: Based on a 50credit postbac and 120credit undergrad, you would be looking at a 3.375 total GPA. While low, it is clear that that with your postbac, you are not the same student as before and schools that reward reinvention might be content with that, without adding the certificate/masters. Although, you have been out of school since 2014, so some schools might want to see recent coursework.

The big issue is your MCAT. A 25 on the old MCAT is ~500 on the new test, maybe a little less. You will need to increase that to have better odds, and getting a 505+ would make you competitive for DO (512+ for MD).

I am also unsure of your extracurriculars - volunteering, clinical, non-clinical, research, shadowing, etc. All are very important aspects that can help propel or destroy your application.

If you don't see any benefit for these programs, except for med/dental school purposes, then I don't see much point - the only benefit seems to be from FIU giving an interview if you do well enough.

Have you read Goro's guide to reinvention?: Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[Ad2b]

Completed Undergrad in 2005 (Yes, I know I'm old).

Postbacc in 2014, CGPA: 3.94, SGPA: 3.93

I've been accepted to both the Graduate Certificate in Molecular and Biomedical Sciences program at Florida International University (FIU) Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine (HWCOM) and the Masters of Science in Medical Sciences, Pre-Professional Program (MSMS P3/MSP3) at the University of South Florida (USF).

1. not old - hahahaha

2. why if you've already completed DIY post-bacc are you considering the MS USF program? That is the program for premeds to get accepted and get a post-bacc GPA like yours?

the people I know personally, at USF who went to or are taking that program have no post-bacc, terrible undergrad GPA, low MCAT score

3. you need a solid MCAT or DAT score for either of your 2 options...

MCAT is NOT that bad IF you study, IF you did well in the pre-reqs. IF you did well, then study for, and take, the MCAT. It's a very doable exam i

 

[IsaacMaccabee]

For figuring out your AMCAS GPA: drive.google.com/file/d/0B8gjteMLbv0iMlRmd0UzU0cyeDQ/view
You can download and open in Excel and fill it in with all your courses.

Edit: SDN automatically embedded the link, had to edit it as it was annoying,

It's great that all your science classes were from your postbac, that will look good as many schools will weigh sGPA higher. Assuming your postbac was all undergrad courses (no grad stuff), then: Based on a 50credit postbac and 120credit undergrad, you would be looking at a 3.375 total GPA. While low, it is clear that that with your postbac, you are not the same student as before and schools that reward reinvention might be content with that, without adding the certificate/masters. Although, you have been out of school since 2014, so some schools might want to see recent coursework.

The big issue is your MCAT. A 25 on the old MCAT is ~500 on the new test, maybe a little less. You will need to increase that to have better odds, and getting a 505+ would make you competitive for DO (512+ for MD).

I am also unsure of your extracurriculars - volunteering, clinical, non-clinical, research, shadowing, etc. All are very important aspects that can help propel or destroy your application.

If you don't see any benefit for these programs, except for med/dental school purposes, then I don't see much point - the only benefit seems to be from FIU giving an interview if you do well enough.

Have you read Goro's guide to reinvention?: Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, all of my postbacc was undergrad coursework, nothing on the grad-level. The fact that I have not been in an academic environment since 2014, (2013, really as I only took one course in the Spring 2014 semester), I thought I would have to go back to school since I've been exclusively in the professional world since 2014.

I'm not considering DO school, so thank you for the frankness about what scores I need to achieve. Sadly, scoring well on the MCAT is not something I can envision. I took it three times. I canceled my first score. I scored a 20 the second time (2014). I scored a 25 the last time (January 2015). Based on both of my scored exams coupled with the mountain of prep and study I did, I concluded that I would not get into med school and gave up at that point. The fact that I will need to score 512+ seems like the longest of shots, at best. This fact is steering me to dental school, though if the DAT is anything like the MCAT, I'm SOL.

My extracurriculars could use some work, though I check a lot of those boxes and can add more hours across the board prior to application.

I see your point about the lack of value these programs would bring me, though I figured my application would look stronger if I recently performed well in an academic environment after being absent for ~5 years then perhaps my good grades would cover some of the stink from a sub-par MCAT.

FIU stands out as a better program at this point because of the allure of the interview and perhaps if I successfully completed this program and was able to ingratiate myself with the powers-that-be and build strong relationships with the faculty, I figure that would bode well when they consider my candidacy, especially if I'm not able to muster a 512+.

Thanks for the Goro's Guide to Reinvention. I've reviewed some of it and will read it stem to stern.

Please let me know if you have any more thoughts, thank you.

 

[IsaacMaccabee]

1. not old - hahahaha

2. why if you've already completed DIY post-bacc are you considering the MS USF program? That is the program for premeds to get accepted and get a post-bacc GPA like yours?

the people I know personally, at USF who went to or are taking that program have no post-bacc, terrible undergrad GPA, low MCAT score

3. you need a solid MCAT or DAT score for either of your 2 options...

MCAT is NOT that bad IF you study, IF you did well in the pre-reqs. IF you did well, then study for, and take, the MCAT. It's a very doable exam i

1. Thank you, though the grey in my beard indicates otherwise.

2. Chiefly I am considering the USF MS because I've been out of academia for ~6 years and applying to medical or dental school from my current station in life, I don't think it likely to be able to go directly into either. Additionally, I want to go to some sort of pre-professional program because my job and boss are nightmares. They also preclude me from being able to seriously study for either the MCAT/DAT. I also thought that my candidacy would be bolstered by successfully completing the MS, though you seem to think it will have little to no affect. Finally, though likely delusional, I thought maybe it could help with the MCAT.

3. MCAT is THAT bad. I did study. Tons. To no avail. I did well in the pre-reqs, 3.93 sGPA, did not translate. I took it three times. I canceled my first score. Then a 20 and 25. The 25 was with tons of prep. I gave up at that point. Though with the new format I was hoping it would be more conducive to my success, this seems highly doubtful. Sigh.

Looks like I should start studying for the DAT. Sigh.

Thank you very much for the feedback, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Ad2b]

1. Thank you, though the grey in my beard indicates otherwise.

2. I've been out of academia for ~6 years and applying to medical ... it likely to be able to go directly into either. Additionally, I want to go to some sort of pre-professional program because my job and boss are nightmares. They also preclude me from being able to seriously study for either the MCAT/DAT. I also thought that my candidacy would be bolstered by successfully completing the MS, though you seem to think it will have little to no affect. Finally, though likely delusional, I thought maybe it could help with the MCAT.

3. MCAT is THAT bad. I did study. Tons. To no avail. I did well in the pre-reqs, 3.93 sGPA, did not translate. I took it three times. I canceled my first score. Then a 20 and 25. The 25 was with tons of prep. I gave up at that point. Though with the new format I was hoping it would be more conducive to my success, this seems highly doubtful. Sigh.

Looks like I should start studying for the DAT. Sigh.

Thank you very much for the feedback, it is greatly appreciated.

1. I'm 54, almost 55

2. the 6 years out of academia is not as critical as an MCAT; while current courses DO help, thorough content review and a lot of practice FL's make the MCAT very doable...

how do they preclude you from studying?

laughing at which company you might work for - S9 comes to mind

I do not think you need a formal post-bacc, you've already done the courses required for the MCAT; the pre-pro program at USF (and others) is more like 1st year med school - or used to be - I'm not as well versed in formal DIY

3. to me, the MCAT was very doable ... if lack of content is an issue, then reinforcing content is key - AND taking the FLs... my last official course was 3 years ago; to reinforce things, I sat through a couple of old classes (with permission of the professors) this last spring (biochemish type course and medical mycology); both of those, just by being around the sciences again, helped reinforce things as I studied the content...

you are in Tampa, right - at least that's what I read in one of your posts -

What field are you in? Can you get a different job within the company or a new job elsewhere? Amgen is hiring, Moffitt is hiring, PwC is hiring, J&J is hiring, USF is hiring (!), MetLife is hiring, Vinik is hiring (!), there are so many things going on right now in Tampa - especially with all that Vinik is doing downtown that companies are scrambling to find people; I mean, stay away from HellCare but other than that? Check Coke, Pepsi, TECO, HSN, and the others I listed... even DCAA ... have you thought about being an independent? I routinely get at least 5 emails a day from different vendors asking if I'm interested in a role they have ... and I generally turn those down preferring to find my own work and set my own rates/times/etc to fit around what *I* want so I can pursue my path...

Make this path a priority - it's hard - being broke sucks, being poor sucks, having bills due and scrambling sucks but owning your choices and pursuing your path? That's priceless!

 

[IsaacMaccabee]

1. I'm 54, almost 55

2. the 6 years out of academia is not as critical as an MCAT; while current courses DO help, thorough content review and a lot of practice FL's make the MCAT very doable...

how do they preclude you from studying?

laughing at which company you might work for - S9 comes to mind

I do not think you need a formal post-bacc, you've already done the courses required for the MCAT; the pre-pro program at USF (and others) is more like 1st year med school - or used to be - I'm not as well versed in formal DIY

3. to me, the MCAT was very doable ... if lack of content is an issue, then reinforcing content is key - AND taking the FLs... my last official course was 3 years ago; to reinforce things, I sat through a couple of old classes (with permission of the professors) this last spring (biochemish type course and medical mycology); both of those, just by being around the sciences again, helped reinforce things as I studied the content...

you are in Tampa, right - at least that's what I read in one of your posts -

What field are you in? Can you get a different job within the company or a new job elsewhere? Amgen is hiring, Moffitt is hiring, PwC is hiring, J&J is hiring, USF is hiring (!), MetLife is hiring, Vinik is hiring (!), there are so many things going on right now in Tampa - especially with all that Vinik is doing downtown that companies are scrambling to find people; I mean, stay away from HellCare but other than that? Check Coke, Pepsi, TECO, HSN, and the others I listed... even DCAA ... have you thought about being an independent? I routinely get at least 5 emails a day from different vendors asking if I'm interested in a role they have ... and I generally turn those down preferring to find my own work and set my own rates/times/etc to fit around what *I* want so I can pursue my path...

Make this path a priority - it's hard - being broke sucks, being poor sucks, having bills due and scrambling sucks but owning your choices and pursuing your path? That's priceless!

In preparation for the last MCAT I took, I did every single FL I could get my hands on. I had a private tutor from Next Step. I spent 8+ hours/day for months. I wasn't working and had no other serious commitments during this time. It was all for naught. My only hope is that the new format is more conducive to my success. However, based on what I've seen/read/heard, this does not appear to be the case.

My boss/job precludes me from serious MCAT study in a multitude of ways, mostly the hours I'm obligated to work, especially the first quarter of the year. I work for a large financial institution in tax reporting, withholding, and compliance and Q1 is when many of our major deadlines occur.

The content is not main issue, per se. The time, the unpredictability, and the "code" of the MCAT is where I stumble. As a basis of comparison, I did very well on the exams I took during the course of my post-bacc, regardless of the subject matter.

Yes, I'm in Tampa. I work in finance for one of largest U.S. banks, specifically tax. Getting a different job in the company is quite complicated and unlikely. Regarding all of the other firms and jobs you mentioned, I'm not particularly interested in staring a new career or having to deal with the hassle of a job search, interview, training, on-boarding, learning a new trade, etc. I'm especially disinterested in being disingenuous during an interview where I would have to feign my supposed interest in a new line of work when all I really want is to go to medical school. I'm also the type of person that struggles with a task if a significant chunk of my time must be allotted elsewhere, i.e., studying for the MCAT while working a new full-time job.

It seems like you think the USF program is a waste of time, especially if I want to go to medical school. If I want to go to dental school, then perhaps there is some value. I'm starting to see your point. On the other hand, the FIU program seems like my only shot at a U.S. medical school, provided they don't emphasize the MCAT too heavily. Prior to committing, I will try to ascertain as best as possible what is the lowest possible MCAT score that is still acceptable. All things considered, I think I make a pretty strong candidate, apart from the MCAT. Though I do realize this is likely the most important aspect of my application.

Thanks for the insight and encouragement nevertheless.

 

[Ad2b]

Yes, I'm in Tampa. I work in finance for one of largest U.S. banks

Okay, yes, I know which one you're talking about ... they have a certain reputation amongst the consultants who go from place to place

Getting a different job in the company is quite complicated and unlikely. Regarding all of the other firms and jobs you mentioned, I'm not particularly interested in staring a new career ... (1)

I'm also the type of person that struggles with a task if a significant chunk of my time must be allotted elsewhere (2), i.e., studying for the MCAT while working a new full-time job.

It seems like you think the USF program is a waste of time, especially if I want to go to medical school (3).

(1) I understand your point of view. My wiring is different - I'm fine switching companies, roles, areas at the needs of whatever company needs whatever it is I have in my tool kit. In consulting, I am also able to upfront disclose, I'm not interested in perm because of medical school...it's been interesting to see how that's received (mostly positive).

(2) If you struggle with allotting your time in different areas, how would you handle med school? That's a consideration you should think about or perhaps you already know. Med school is more than a 40 hour / week job in which much of it is chunked up into different areas to be covered in a shorter amount of time (biochem in 6 weeks, gross anatomy in 3, while taking some patho/phys class over the same 3-6 weeks)...

(3) That is NOT what I said about USF. To be very clear, the program at USF is excellent in my opinion, my friend's niece went through the program and with a 3.2 uGPA got a 3.8 in the MS + a solid MCAT and is now admitted for MS1. IN YOUR CASE, I think it's a waste of your money because you already have the grades to prove you can do the work. Your only issue, imo, is the MCAT.

The DAT is no piece of cake either.

Last, doing an FL is not the same as understanding. The new MCAT is different (I took the old one too) in some ways. What I found made the MCAT almost easy is doing the section banks twice, going through painstakingly slow to understand the "why" in biology/biochem. I did the same thing with the full lengths from the AAMC and also their flashcards - basically, I used every resource available and made sure I understood the "why" ...

For instance, seeing a rat study on BAT or WAT and understanding HOW to interpret the tables/graphs/charts/data/ and information in the passage itself, made the MCAT's sole passage on something similar, almost easy.

Obviously, this is all your choice and I'm just giving my opinion (free, on the internet) based upon what I've experienced and what I've seen over the several years here and elsewhere...

Best of luck to you whatever you decide!

(P.S. very tongue in cheek - maybe you should ask your boss for some "consulting help" --- you know where to find me )

 

[Hi_I'mPaul]

I am a graduate of the MSP3 program (class of 2018). Now going to an MD school this August. If you have questions about it/want my honest opinions on the program, you can PM me!