help me guys for german residency...!

[fasttrack]

hi guys,


I would like to introduse myself 1st. My name is XYZ.I am a student of medical university, Russia. Actually i am a citizen of india and after my higher secondry education i came here for my medical studies in general medicine (M.B.B.S), So as i am a student of final year now,i am searching a university for my post graduate studies and good feture. So actually i am interested doing my post grduate education or reidency in Master of surgery of Orthopedics and Trauma subject in germany , So i want all detail information about the post graduate or residency educations in germany. So i request to send me those all. As i am having few quiestions like Can i get admitted for post graduation as above noticed subject? What will be the medium of instruction? What will be criteria of admission? What kind of document i need to submit and where? i heared residency i free is it true? What about dermatory and living expance? Can i enroll by my self i mean without broker? How and all i have to being ready if i deside to continue the study in germany? what exams i have to pass? please keep in mind that i am russian medical diploma holder but indian citizen.
I am eagarly waiting for your reply so please do send me the answers.
Thank you, chill
XYZ

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[rytydy]

I can't answer all of your questions but I can maybe help a bit. Residency training in Germany is not a formal "program" like it is in many other countries. You apply directly to the hospital that you are interested in working at. You can apply at any time and the hospitals hire based on their individual needs. The training is more "one the job" training where you have a catalog (list of procedures etc) that you have to complete before you can take the exam to get your Facharzt (specialization). Due to the informal nature, the length of residency can vary greatly depending on things like the hospital you are at and personal motivation. Residents here are normal medical employees and are paid a decent salary (enough for an average standard of living).

There is an increasing need for doctors in Germany so it is often possible for foreign trained doctors to get positions here (although I think orthopedic surgery is one of the more competitive areas.... but i'm not sure...). However, even in surgical fields, it is essential that you can speak German! If you find a hospital that is ready to give you a position, you then have to apply for a working permit and in most cases you will also have to take an equivalency exam. This exam is oral and covers the same material as the German board exam (all med school clinical subjects)- I can't say much more because I studied here and did not have to take this exam.

If you need more information you should contact the hospitals you are interested in directly. In addition, information can be found on the websites of the "Landesaerztekammer" for the State in Germany that you wish to work in.

 

[fasttrack]

1st of all thanks a lot rytydy i am sure that all of your information for me will be helpfull anyhow its importent. i am sorry to disturbing again but i still not satisfy ...because i am trying to gather more information abot this residency in germany. as i said in last mail that i am a indian citizen and who is studing in russian mean i will be having a russian diplma that is called M.D i understood that i have to find a hospital and they have to hire me. but i want to know what is exact procedure. i mean i have to pass how many? and which exams? for example language right? and what else? language exam mean german toffel exam or anything else? just name me perticalr exams to enrol. if you have some email or website just leave for me. if you have any website of hospital who hires foreign student for residency. one more thing i understod that i have to work as a assistant docter and they pay for that. but i dont know how they teach there? practically or theoratically? i mean lessons? lectures? what is the medium of instruction. thank you.

 

[Squiggy]

You've asked about this stuff for Swedish jobs as well as US residencies and Aussie internships on valuemd. Can't you just stay in Russia and work there or go back to India? Why did you go abroad in the first place? I think the UK (don't think you're allowed in anymore), EU, US, Canada, Australia, as well as every other developed nation has enough doctors and would do fine without those educated in second and third world countries.

 

[shreypete]

You've asked about this stuff for Swedish jobs as well as US residencies and Aussie internships on valuemd. Can't you just stay in Russia and work there or go back to India? Why did you go abroad in the first place? I think the UK (don't think you're allowed in anymore), EU, US, Canada, Australia, as well as every other developed nation has enough doctors and would do fine without those educated in second and third world countries.

He posted the question for help...not to hear criticism regarding which country he's studying in. If you can help, then by all means, do so but there's no point in criticizing schools in "third world countries" (which you did indirectly) and FYI I know tons of Russian grads working in EU (in countries like Germany, France, Netherlands etc. and they are doing quite well at that).

And secondly some of the EU nations (like Germany) are facing huge doctor shortages and are recruiting graduates from Eastern European as well as some Asian countries (for. eg. India as they have very good ties with Germany).

 

[Squiggy]

How in the world are Russian grads working in France and the Netherlands of all places? Those are some of the most protectionist ones. Germany I can understand because the German doctors are moving towards greener pastures like the UK. Would you suggest Sweden to him as well so he can get a shot at working in some hamlet just below the Arctic circle? If I remember correctly, EU citizens get first dibs on jobs followed by EU med graduates, and then everyone else.

 

[fasttrack]

i am sorry! i am just aking a help? is this a forum where anyone can post the Question and answers? what is the problem with you especially shagy! or i dont know what it is...! somthing wrong with you? if you want then answer otherwise jst keep you f**Kin mouth shut... anyway i dont ask you though...

 

[fasttrack]

Thank you very much

 

[Squiggy]

Temper... temper...

Well Anand before you even can work in those countries you have to speak the language and develop a minimal degree of literacy which is probably going to a be a problem for you. Also why in the world did you not study in the European Union if you wanted to work there afterwards? You could have studied in Germany or at Semmelweiss or Charles 1st Faculty or something. They probably would have made a better stepping stone and you would have had a basic foundation in the Romance languages.

Yes, this is a forum where anyone can post questions and answers and I posted my questions and answers for you. How you receive them is your business. Now personally, I just think it's silly that you would study in Russia of all places when many EU nations offer an affordable medical education. Could you land a job in the EU? Maybe. But by studying in Russia, you cheated yourself of much better opportunities achieved if you had gone the EU route in addition to now having to deal with new language barriers.

That's my answer. Good luck in your job search and try not to kill anyone.

 

[shreypete]

Well Fasttrack, like I've already told you before, it's definitely not easy to get into a residency/apprenticeship program in Europe and Squiggy does make a point even though he can be sarcastic and pessimistic....but IT CAN be done...if you have the grades and if you are motivated enough to learn the langauge fluently and if you do well on the medical exam....I'm sure they'll consider you. I have relatives who work in Sweden and they did their medicine in some third world country.

 

[fasttrack]

Well Anand before you even can work in those countries you have to speak the language and develop a minimal degree of literacy which is probably going to a be a problem for you. Also why in the world did you not study in the European Union if you wanted to potentially work there afterwards? You could have studied in Germany or at Semmelweiss or Charles 1st Faculty or something. They probably would have made a better stepping stone.

thank you for advice. for your kind information i would like to let you know that i know all this. look, my interes about germany devolope after coming here. now i been quite long in russia and one of my teacher is motivating me to do that so! and infact or the truth is i just want to do my postgraduation in worlds one of the good contry! as after that i am not going to stay there forever anyway! my aim is clear, that i want to do postgraduation that too in free of charge ( i mean without tution fees) and in germany moreover they pay you! its just like well and good for student like me...who want to study as well who want proove somthing on his own. and i would like to clear you that i am learning german and soon i will be general physician so i think its really not hard to get enter in germany though i know i am a non EU citizen and i am a non EU medical diploma holder! but then also at any of cost i am sure that i am going to go! if i dont then who else??! ...at present i think like this way. if you want to say its really dfficult then come on explain me but why you want to underestimate me?? come on lets share somthing!? come on advice me i will appresiate for sure. be a human dont critisize! if you really have some information its wel come please...i hope you understand me, and what i want to say and what are my feelings about my residency in germany.
so, i hope i will listen from you soon, take care
thank you

 

[Squiggy]

You're welcome and sorry if I offended you before. I probably exaggerated with my first post and came off a bit rude. Just know that the path ahead is difficult and you're gonna have to work harder than EU grads to make it in.

 

[navdoc007]

hi fasttrack
it is not impossible to do anything in this world.if you want to do residency in germany you have to do two things before even you can start searching for jobs.1)have a very good command over german probably european level c1,it will take u atleast 10 months to do this.2)licencing exam unfortunately there is not any centralised system like plab every region have its own system.training will be in german so again first master german.germans are very baeurocratic keep that in mind also.
good luck

 

[fasttrack]

thanx for help and suport. i know its not impossible but the thing is i reall lac of information, though through this forum some of my friends like gome and sharypete help me alot. they help me as much they could! but still i am getting informatiom i mean furm inormation because of contraversy! so if yo know something really detail as in my case ( as i mention above i am an indian but russian diploma holder ) so please help me out. where to go? how to get? exactly...i mean
thank you

 

[navdoc007]

hi fasttrack
i would advise you to try usmle insted of trying to learn german or any other european language.us system is more transparent and fair towards non us graduate.i am afraid cost of learnig an european language and clearing licensing exam will be much more higher than the usmle and nobody wants to give jobs to a fresh graduate and specially if he dont have an eu passport .
usmle is not a hard exam lots of people have done it and you can find material on internet for preparing for usmle.also you dont have to do a language exam and training period is also shorter.people usually study 3 months for usmle part 1.
residency program in germany is so bad that even germans are leaving germany.if you still want to go germany try mailing individual hospiatls hr boss or the department head you can find hospitals on google map.every region in germany have different law for granting licence for doctors.workpermit will also be a issue.
hope this is useful for you

 

[rytydy]

If you are still interested in more information about Germany, the German version of sdn is probably the best place to get more information- maybe you will even be able to find someone in the same situation as you. Even though the forum is predominantly in German, all med students here can speak English pretty well.

www.medi-learn.de

Unfortunately I don't have many more details than what I already mentioned. There is no official language exam that you need to take when applying for "Assistenzarzt" positions but the better your German is, the more interesting you will be for them. I think you will have more luck if you look for position in smaller hospitals (particularly in some areas of former eastern Germany). it might be a good idea to come and do an observership in Germany- I think that many hospitals are open to having visitors and it would give you a chance to improve your language skills, make connections and get to know the system better and see if it is of interest to you. I think the best way to get an observership here is to contact the hospitals directly.

I disagree with the statement that doctors are leaving Germany because the residency is so bad here! It has it's down sides (in particular the fairly low pay) and there are quite a few doctors that have left to work in other countries (in particular Scandinavia), but I think this has more to do with some unusually good working conditions for German doctors in many of these countries. The German system is not right for everyone but the quality of healthcare here is very high and the working conditions are not all that bad. Residency training is much more flexible that in many other countries (with ample possibilities to change hospitals or work part-time), working hours are far less than in the US and research is well funded. The biggest down points are the low pay (although doctors here still have an above average standard of living) and the beurocracy. It is important to remember that Germans are often very critical of there own country and social systems so.... although there are always things that can be improved upon... negative comments often need to be taken with a grain of salt. The best thing to do is check it out for yourself!!

 

[rytydy]

Another website that might be helpful (it is also in English)

http://www.bundesaerztekammer.de/

This contains all of the guideline for working as a doctor in Germany as well as links to the regional offices and some posts about job openings.

Hope it is helpful!

 

[Marsupilami]

as rytydy pointed out, it's not all that bad in Germany. Residency positions in General Surgery are extremely easy to get, Orthopedics is doable,too. However, quality of teaching varies greatly ! There are numerous foreign doctors in Germany who will probably never be board certified since they are doing their residencies at hospitals which offer very limited training. This is especially the case with surgical specialties. Some are stuck in dead end jobs forever and are totally dependent on their hospital. Hospitals know this and exploit those docs to death. There is a reason why surgery is extremely unpopular in Germany !

 

[fasttrack]

Thank you rytydy and NOVDOC007. i really appreciate both of your answers, once again thanx for all usefull and helpfull information. well novdoc007 the thing is, i myself is really not interested to do residcy or even job in usa, i dont know why! may be because everyone is running there! its quite hard now, and as well you guys know that its getting saturated. i am sure one day it will be like uk for us.! its costly by the all mean, it wll take pretty much time to proove yourself there,and i know my own limits but it dosent mean that i gave up for germany! and i really dont wish to stay somwhere forever, returning to native country. as i cleard before i repeat my aim is stright,that is just to obtain a specialization from country like germany, and return back to homeland. if you ask why germany then i mysel feel that after finishing my corse at russia i thnk personally that germany will be the correct choice cause the medical system is pretty same. moreover its free of cost and they pay me! i want to do my specialization by suporting myself! and that everything is possible in germany. i am ready to learn german languageas well. i know that it will be bit hard to get inn as being non EU citezen as well non EU medical diploma holder but not impossible as you stated that allready physicians are moving from germany to abroad! if germans dont have interest to stay in germany itself then very simple, why other european want to be there? novdo007 if possible just post for me email or web adrees to contact german hospitals. (as my german skills are yet limited!)
well rytydy,thank you for web adress and you allways helped me. actually where i stay russia from there one person (who is russian means non EU citizen and who is russian medical diploma holder AGAIN non EU) went to germany for residency now he is working and earng quite good there, i contacted him he said some interestin things to me, he said that there is no need to pass german language exam called test daf or anything official. Yes, i have to face the german language but to the head of hospital or department who hires me. and ofcorse, the medical exams too! he said you can look through any other way also he means probably just give some present to head of hospital ( i hope u understand guys) he said its really not impossible but just start to study your german languge.i am also sure that i should target the small hospitals, i have allready made my mind that i dont have any special condition or wish to be in big boom city orelse in big hospital. finally things aftre all the same and that is study purpose and earn to support myself! but just i dont know how to find the hspital in small area or small institute, if you googling then just tell me the phrase what to search as?? if anone know the websites please give me.
thank you...!

 

[fasttrack]

thanx rytydy you gave me nice wesite, http://www.medi-learn.de i am doing registration there but i am just not able to do so...i dont know why but it is showing me somthing in german which i dont know...so wil you help me to creat one account. just creat there and send me details to my email is [email protected] after i recive i will just go and change my password ( probably i dont need that too as it is a general forum) so if you could it will be kind to me.
thank you

 

[Marsupilami]

fasttrack,

in response to your PM, the best advice I can give you is to contact the "Bundesaerztekammer" to inquire about the necessary steps to become registered in Germany. Since there is no standardized process for IMGs in Germany like in the States, it's impossible to give you precise recommendations and instructions. My assumption is that it won't be easy, I have heard of Russian docs here who had to repeat a great deal of their medical school training in Germany. Of course, it is doable, but it can be a long journey. Furthermore, without good command of the German language, you are not likely to pass exams and to secure a good residency spot, regardless of your medical knowledge.

Here is a link to a job database for physicians...http://www.aerzteblatt.de/v4/stellen/maske.asp

Hope it helps,

Marsupilami

 

[fasttrack]

thanks alot...yeah i helps me i am sure!!!

 

[bubun]

hi fasttrack, i am a medical graduate(MBBS) from kolkata and wish to specialise in ortho.i am also interested in training in germany,but don't know how to start my voyage.i think we can discuss about the possibilities there and help each other.

 

[koustubha]

Kasa ahes..))
is good to see you..
You doing great job dude..))
Seems so ambitious regarding germany, good good caryy on..))
You wil make it..)
As manny less of us are trying to make efforts to climb up, to get in residancy sphera..))
You dont think france is tooa better option, and i have heard of Austria too having its fundless residancy programs..?
If you have some info share it.!

 

[koustubha]

hi fasttrack, i am a medical graduate(MBBS) from kolkata and wish to specialise in ortho.i am also interested in training in germany,but don't know how to start my voyage.i think we can discuss about the possibilities there and help each other.

Hw ez life dude.)
You must have goen through the up ones which have made very clear pic for residancy program in Germany, as "Fasttrack" have taken tuff efforts to make evey thing clear, and by asking and my analysing every thing in very clear manner..))
If you still have any particular questions, Raise it..))

 

[koustubha]

People out here, what opnions do you have other than germany as a descient option undertaking "Residancy programm.." i mean even though its not for free of education but where we are suoppose to pay a descient sum..!!
As things are clear that every Eu nation have its own language system, but there must be some where there might be a chance of undergoing ENGLISH language Medical residancy programms..??
i know about romania, England, wht else.. are there..?? what about ierland, Norway,Sweden,Finland.
Please share your respectable knowledges as they always have been respected and will be..))
Thankyou..)))

 

[fasttrack]

yes ofcorse there are chances to go under residency in english in england and in irland, in sweeden also but chances are very low. have to find very accuratly but again the problem is about the subject you have selected.you see it depends afterall. but sure england is the best option though it is bit costly! and then it comes usa. so think about it!

 

[shreypete]

If you're specifically interested in doing a residency program in English, then UK (England, Ireland, Scotland), Australia, U.S., South Africa, Canada (but pretty much impossible to get into), and New Zealand are your options. Out of these US and Australia are the best options (the others are very hard to get into).

 

[MedStew10]

Temper... temper...

Well Anand before you even can work in those countries you have to speak the language and develop a minimal degree of literacy which is probably going to a be a problem for you. Also why in the world did you not study in the European Union if you wanted to work there afterwards? You could have studied in Germany or at Semmelweiss or Charles 1st Faculty or something. They probably would have made a better stepping stone and you would have had a basic foundation in the Romance languages.

Yes, this is a forum where anyone can post questions and answers and I posted my questions and answers for you. How you receive them is your business. Now personally, I just think it's silly that you would study in Russia of all places when many EU nations offer an affordable medical education. Could you land a job in the EU? Maybe. But by studying in Russia, you cheated yourself of much better opportunities achieved if you had gone the EU route in addition to now having to deal with new language barriers.

That's my answer. Good luck in your job search and try not to kill anyone.

Hello there:
your reply referring to studying in Russia as something-not-worth-doing sounds strange to me. I did not research Kazan Medical school, but have heard lots of positive feedback about Moscow Medical Academy, the top-ranking school in Russia. As a matter of fact I am planning to study there and bring my degree back to US. Why would I do that?--I don't want to become a slave to Gazillion-dollar-student-loans...As simple as that. It is the student that makes the difference, not the country. No offence, but going to school in Germany, or Sweden, or other EU nations, does not necessarily make a great doctor out of a lousy student
Personally, I agree with the choice of Indian fellow here: SAVE yourself HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS $$$$ and become an M.D. by making smart choices
www.MedEdAbroad.com

 

[shreypete]

Hello there:
your reply referring to studying in Russia as something-not-worth-doing sounds strange to me. I did not research Kazan Medical school, but have heard lots of positive feedback about Moscow Medical Academy, the top-ranking school in Russia. As a matter of fact I am planning to study there and bring my degree back to US. Why would I do that?--I don't want to become a slave to Gazillion-dollar-student-loans...As simple as that. It is the student that makes the difference, not the country. No offence, but going to school in Germany, or Sweden, or other EU nations, does not necessarily make a great doctor out of a lousy student
Personally, I agree with the choice of Indian fellow here: SAVE yourself HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS $$$$ and become an M.D. by making smart choices
www.MedEdAbroad.com

In a way you're right, going to a medical school in Russia is ok if you plan to return to the US BUT it will not be easy (just as it won't be easy if you're attending a medical school elsewhere in Europe or Asia or any other continent other than North America.)

Secondly, the problem is that if you don't get into a residency program in the States, that's when you have to start worrying...because you will only be limited to Russia. It would be ridiculously hard to get into a European country (considering it's a non-EU country.) So that's when many students regret the fact that they went to Russia. Of course, you might get into some of the Eastern European EU countries with a lesser difficulty, but that's about it.

Russia does indeed have some very top-quality medical schools (in it's own RANGE/TIER) but the education you get there, might not help you study for the USMLEs. The schools in Western Europe have a better advantage when it comes to this aspect as most Western European universities integrate Problem Based Learning into their traditional curricula (some in fact solely use the PBL approach) and this will definitely help you when preparing for the USMLEs.

But at the end, as you say, if you don't work hard and end up being a lousy, procrastinator, then you're destined to be a lousy doctor (unless you change your ways.) Nevertheless, the medical schools in Europe are usually of a high-standard and admission requirements are stringent (a little less in comparison to the American medical schools) but staying in is the hardest part. Students do get weeded out every year or quit/drop out early in the year. So, these students are forced to study well. So you don't really come across too many lousy students in the countries you mentioned (I'm not saying they don't exist, but they're a minority and usually don't get too far.)

 

[fasttrack]

By the way, I have managed my medical residency here in Germany.
I have been doing it since 2012 and i am proud to inform you all i have also finished my board certification with good remarks!
Approbierte Facharzt Inner Medicine!! Dankeschön :-D