Help me strategize. Third time application, can't make a mistake this time.

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TigerClaws

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
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STATS
cGPA: ~3.5
sGPA: ~3.6

MCAT 1: 26, (7,7,12)
MCAT 2: 29, (10, 8, 11)
MCAT 3: 32, (9, 12, 11)

EXTRA-CURRICULAR
  • ~3.5 years of research (Anticipating a paper, but I don't know why it is taking so long to get done)
  • ~Shadowed 1 doctor: 4 hours a week for about an year
  • Worked as a ER scribe, but got fired during training because I could not spend enough time outside studying for the job ( I was taking the MCAT then, had to get my priorities right) Anyway my fault.
  • Got 2 undergraduate research grants.
  • Other Misc activities: volunteering, tutoring, teaching assistant
  • Graduated in December
PREVIOUS APPLICATIONS
  • 2012- 2013: Applied late (October 1st, primary), and only submitted one secondary. Mistakes were obvious to me and I thought I rectified it the second time. Highest MCAT then was 29, which I got after submitting the application. The one secondary I submitted was to my state school (High in-state acceptance) and I went to that school, did my research there. Got interviewed and rejected with a stupid reason that I did not get a letter from a grant director. I did not even talk to this said person, he was just the person in charge of giving the grants.
  • 2013-2014: This is the time, I thought I did everything right. But apparently not. I applied relatively early (~July 15th, primary). The scribe job came in during this summer, I wasn't fired by the time I sent in the application. Sent secondaries to multiple schools, no interviews except for the state school. I thought I was in this time. I got the 32 MCAT this time, more clinical experience, better PS (or so I thought), better LORs, and they look favorable at re-applicants. Again no luck, and no other interviews. I call the state school, they give me reason: I have to be more professional in my interview, My PS is disjointed and I should have had a recommendation from the scribe job. They also asked me why I did not consider doing research, being that I have so much experience in it (this was such a blow to my confidence :( )
MY THOUGHTS ON THE FUTURE
  • Start working on PS, LORs and stuff way early and apply as soon as the app opens this time. I already am getting my LORs ready and this week I am going to write a rough draft of the PS.
  • Get more clinical experience
    • I am started shadowing a orthopedic surgeon since last week.
    • Started volunteering at a hospice
    • Will probably start shadowing a neurosurgeon from the beginning of April.
    • Applying to clinical jobs
  • Considering hiring a pre-med counselor
  • I am thinking about getting an MPH, MBA or some masters program to keep me occupied and probably help my GPA, but I cannot report it on my AMCAS
  • I will also apply to DO schools, which I did not do last time.
REQUESTS and EXPLANATION of my SITUATION
  • Any kind of guidance!
  • It is depressing, to see all the sophomores I mentored and tutored getting in but me still being stuck in the rat race.
  • I know that this is what I want to do, I am willing to do anything to get there!
  • Do you think the way that I am going is good?
  • Can you suggest any better ways?
  • Help me decide on the masters program too.
THANK YOU very much for reading through all this. I know it is long, but I think this is the tldr version of the commentary I wrote for myself.
I will be on here constantly and keep answering any further questions you have. If anyone else is in a similar boat, hit me up. May be some comradery can help us get out this crappy situation.

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It looks like from your feedback, you've identified three red flags. Also, what schools did you apply to? From your preliminary CV, it sounds like you applied to one or two.
 
If your interview went badly enough the school actually commented on it when you asked for feedback you really need to sit across from an experienced interviewer (doesn't have to be a medical school interviewer) and figure out what about your answers/demeanor/nervous habits is problematic.

It doesn't sound at all like the problems you've identified will be helped by getting a masters degree, so I would be very wary of spending a bunch of money for a degree that will ultimately do very little to further your ultimate goal of getting into medical school. It won't help your GPA because graduate GPAs are calculated separately and a master's degree isn't going to change your overall profile as an applicant very much.
 
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Is English your second language? There's a lot of grammar mistakes in here. If you have similar issues in your app, that's an easy way to eliminate you.
 
MSAR Online is your friend. Apply strategically. Do NOT apply to OOS public schools. Avoid schoosl that avg. MCAT scores. Your best bet wil be the low tiers, all new MD schools, and any DO program.

STATS
cGPA: ~3.5
sGPA: ~3.6

MCAT 1: 26, (7,7,12)
MCAT 2: 29, (10, 8, 11)
MCAT 3: 32, (9, 12, 11)

EXTRA-CURRICULAR
  • ~3.5 years of research (Anticipating a paper, but I don't know why it is taking so long to get done)
  • ~Shadowed 1 doctor: 4 hours a week for about an year
  • Worked as a ER scribe, but got fired during training because I could not spend enough time outside studying for the job ( I was taking the MCAT then, had to get my priorities right) Anyway my fault.
  • Got 2 undergraduate research grants.
  • Other Misc activities: volunteering, tutoring, teaching assistant
  • Graduated in December
PREVIOUS APPLICATIONS
  • 2012- 2013: Applied late (October 1st, primary), and only submitted one secondary. Mistakes were obvious to me and I thought I rectified it the second time. Highest MCAT then was 29, which I got after submitting the application. The one secondary I submitted was to my state school (High in-state acceptance) and I went to that school, did my research there. Got interviewed and rejected with a stupid reason that I did not get a letter from a grant director. I did not even talk to this said person, he was just the person in charge of giving the grants.
  • 2013-2014: This is the time, I thought I did everything right. But apparently not. I applied relatively early (~July 15th, primary). The scribe job came in during this summer, I wasn't fired by the time I sent in the application. Sent secondaries to multiple schools, no interviews except for the state school. I thought I was in this time. I got the 32 MCAT this time, more clinical experience, better PS (or so I thought), better LORs, and they look favorable at re-applicants. Again no luck, and no other interviews. I call the state school, they give me reason: I have to be more professional in my interview, My PS is disjointed and I should have had a recommendation from the scribe job. They also asked me why I did not consider doing research, being that I have so much experience in it (this was such a blow to my confidence :( )
MY THOUGHTS ON THE FUTURE
  • Start working on PS, LORs and stuff way early and apply as soon as the app opens this time. I already am getting my LORs ready and this week I am going to write a rough draft of the PS.
  • Get more clinical experience
    • I am started shadowing a orthopedic surgeon since last week.
    • Started volunteering at a hospice
    • Will probably start shadowing a neurosurgeon from the beginning of April.
    • Applying to clinical jobs
  • Considering hiring a pre-med counselor
  • I am thinking about getting an MPH, MBA or some masters program to keep me occupied and probably help my GPA, but I cannot report it on my AMCAS
  • I will also apply to DO schools, which I did not do last time.
REQUESTS and EXPLANATION of my SITUATION
  • Any kind of guidance!
  • It is depressing, to see all the sophomores I mentored and tutored getting in but me still being stuck in the rat race.
  • I know that this is what I want to do, I am willing to do anything to get there!
  • Do you think the way that I am going is good?
  • Can you suggest any better ways?
  • Help me decide on the masters program too.
THANK YOU very much for reading through all this. I know it is long, but I think this is the tldr version of the commentary I wrote for myself.
I will be on here constantly and keep answering any further questions you have. If anyone else is in a similar boat, hit me up. May be some comradery can help us get out this crappy situation.
 
It looks like from your feedback, you've identified three red flags. Also, what schools did you apply to? From your preliminary CV, it sounds like you applied to one or two.

I did but I am lost at what to do to rectify them. Obviously work on my interview skills, I am doing that. I am working on my PS. But I cannot go and get that LOR from a place I have been fired from. I applied to a lot of schools, around 20. Granted I should have added a few more lower-tier. But almost all of them were mid-tier.

If your interview went badly enough the school actually commented on it when you asked for feedback you really need to sit across from an experienced interviewer (doesn't have to be a medical school interviewer) and figure out what about your answers/demeanor/nervous habits is problematic.

It doesn't sound at all like the problems you've identified will be helped by getting a masters degree, so I would be very wary of spending a bunch of money for a degree that will ultimately do very little to further your ultimate goal of getting into medical school. It won't help your GPA because graduate GPAs are calculated separately and a master's degree isn't going to change your overall profile as an applicant very much.

I see your point, but one of the main reasons for the degree is just so I can ensure I have one, if medicine doesn't workout again. But I am still on the fence about it. That is priority #1 on my list now.

Is English your second language? There's a lot of grammar mistakes in here. If you have similar issues in your app, that's an easy way to eliminate you.

Is it that obvious? I am usually good at writing but my errors come out when I am writing emotionally :( . My PS was looked over by many native speakers and English tutors before I submitted.
 
MSAR Online is your friend. Apply strategically. Do NOT apply to OOS public schools. Avoid schoosl that avg. MCAT scores. Your best bet wil be the low tiers, all new MD schools, and any DO program.

Point noted.
 
I applied to a lot of schools, around 20. Granted I should have added a few more lower-tier. But almost all of them were mid-tier.

20 schools is enough by most standards, but not a lot. Your MCAT score was improved, but after taking it 3x you may be at a disadvantage- some schools will average scores. I would include mostly low and few mid-tier schools next time. Unless you have your heart set on the MD, I would apply mostly to DO schools and make a push for these by shadowing a DO.

GL
 
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Yes. I can tell from reading the first paragraph that you are probably Chinese or Korean. It's subtle, but schools have to be nitpicky Bc there are so many applicants.

In your case I would pay someone to edit the entire primary and every secondary if you can afford it.

Get some mock interviews arranged if possible during the late summer.

Good luck to you!
 
Some small suggestions that you may have overlooked for interview day:

-Do you hair. So many interviewees look downright childish. My girlfriend convinced me to grow my hair out and part it. I am convinced that it helped me to look more mature. This is if you are a man, if you are a woman I don't know what to tell you.

-Tie a good knot for your tie.

Just the little details that will make you look better and feel more confident.
 
Problem 1: Scribing shouldn't be on your application. You got fired, don't have a LOR, and you probably don't have many hours (if you were fired during training).

Problem 2: friends/acquaintances are forgiving when it comes to any sort of PS mistake. You (presumably) poured your heart into your personal statement, so they don't want to shoot you down. PM me your email/your PS and I can look at it for you. I'm a good editor (warning: I'm not nice about it)

Problem 3: Interviewing is a tough thing to improve on. Practicing with others is good. Also, make sure to be clear in your head as to your motivations and what you want the interviewer to know about you.

Hope this helps
 
With all of your stats that you have here, I am pretty sure that you are submitting a pretty horrible SOP. Make sure that your SOP is in great shape and you should have better luck this time around. - Admissions to Medicine
 
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Some small suggestions that you may have overlooked for interview day:

-Do you hair. So many interviewees look downright childish. My girlfriend convinced me to grow my hair out and part it. I am convinced that it helped me to look more mature. This is if you are a man, if you are a woman I don't know what to tell you.

-Tie a good knot for your tie.

Just the little details that will make you look better and feel more confident.

Men don't "do" their hair.
We "fix" our hair.

If anything I was too suave for my own good for the interview. I was the best dressed that day, so I don't think appearance was the problem. But I will keep the advice in mind.

Problem 1: Scribing shouldn't be on your application. You got fired, don't have a LOR, and you probably don't have many hours (if you were fired during training).

Problem 2: friends/acquaintances are forgiving when it comes to any sort of PS mistake. You (presumably) poured your heart into your personal statement, so they don't want to shoot you down. PM me your email/your PS and I can look at it for you. I'm a good editor (warning: I'm not nice about it)

Problem 3: Interviewing is a tough thing to improve on. Practicing with others is good. Also, make sure to be clear in your head as to your motivations and what you want the interviewer to know about you.

Hope this helps
With all of your stats that you have here, I am pretty sure that you are submitting a pretty horrible SOP. Make sure that your SOP is in great shape and you should have better luck this time around. - Admissions to Medicine

Scribing was a significant clinical experience for me, as I worked full time in the ER for two and half months. I don't know about leaving it out completely, without that in place I have almost no significant clinical experience. That firing was done at the end of the training... I am shadowing doctors now, but I don't know if it is going to be enough by the time the applications opens. The other shadowing I did for a year, I think the Dr. wrote a lukewarm letter. The adcom kind of hinted at it in my phone conversation, so I am thinking of not getting it from him this time.

As I mentioned before, I will be writing it this week. I will work on it and send it to you once I am done. Thank you very much for offering the help.
 
Hi there! I was told that getting recommendations from doctors you've only shadowed is not a good idea, because shadowing doesn't really showcase your skill set. Quick idea that may work: mass email free clinics in your area and see if they're willing to take on a volunteer until December. Tell them you have scribing experience and that you are willing to do anything, work any hours, etc. Take the clinic that offers you the most amount of hours per week and on the AMCAS, extrapolate those hours to cover the rest of the year. (Most of my clinic stuff had to be volunteering given that there are so many premeds out there willing to do it all for free.) Try to be as immersed and as active during the next month as possible, make friends with the doctors, and have them write a letter that points out your work ethic and interest in medicine. If you speak another language, it may actually be easier to find a job at clinics that speak Chinese, Spanish, etc., and this may look better on your resume because you are working with immigrant populations. Also please feel free to send me a copy of your PS -- I may also be a bit of a harsh editor, but if that gets you in, I think that's okay!
 
Hi there! I was told that getting recommendations from doctors you've only shadowed is not a good idea, because shadowing doesn't really showcase your skill set. Quick idea that may work: mass email free clinics in your area and see if they're willing to take on a volunteer until December. Tell them you have scribing experience and that you are willing to do anything, work any hours, etc. Take the clinic that offers you the most amount of hours per week and on the AMCAS, extrapolate those hours to cover the rest of the year. (Most of my clinic stuff had to be volunteering given that there are so many premeds out there willing to do it all for free.) Try to be as immersed and as active during the next month as possible, make friends with the doctors, and have them write a letter that points out your work ethic and interest in medicine. If you speak another language, it may actually be easier to find a job at clinics that speak Chinese, Spanish, etc., and this may look better on your resume because you are working with immigrant populations. Also please feel free to send me a copy of your PS -- I may also be a bit of a harsh editor, but if that gets you in, I think that's okay!

That is actually an amazing idea. I did not think about free clinics. I will look into local ones and see where that gets me. Thank you.
 
If anything I was too suave for my own good for the interview. I was the best dressed that day, so I don't think appearance was the problem.

This concerns me a little bit. If your attire stands out and might be described as "too suave", you might be erring on the side of the 'night club' look, which doesn't play well. I didn't see if you are male or female, but if you're a guy, don't wear a dark shirt or black suit. And no purple. If you're female, no stilettos, cleavage, short or tight. If you'd wear your interview outfit to a club, it's wrong. If a female lawyer on TV would wear it, it's wrong. (Or maybe OK if two sizes bigger.)

Other than that, I'd concur on the Personal Statement reviews and edits. Listen to the hints you got regarding your LORs, and try to ask your prospective letter writers if they feel they could write you a "strong letter". And do focus some serious effort on DO. It's a great program, and shadowing a DO is necessary and will demonstrate your interest.

For volunteering, look for less glamorous opportunities. Think elderly, disabled, hospice, immigrant, impoverished, ghetto, homeless, AIDS. Nice suburban hospitals are glutted with eager pre-med volunteers. Less-glamorous programs have genuine needs as well as openings.
 
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This concerns me a little bit. If your attire stands out and might be described as "too suave", you might be erring on the side of the 'night club' look, which doesn't play well. I didn't see if you are male or female, but if you're a guy, don't wear a dark shirt or black suit. And no purple. If you're female, no stilettos, cleavage, short or tight. If you'd wear your interview outfit to a club, it's wrong. If a female lawyer on TV would wear it, it's wrong. (Or maybe OK if two sizes bigger.)

Other than that, I'd concur on the Personal Statement reviews and edits. Listen to the hints you got regarding your LORs, and try to ask your prospective letter writers if they feel they could write you a "strong letter". And do focus some serious effort on DO. It's a great program, and shadowing a DO is necessary and will demonstrate your interest.

For volunteering, look for less glamorous opportunities. Think elderly, disabled, hospice, immigrant, impoverished, ghetto, homeless, AIDS. Nice suburban hospitals are glutted with eager pre-med volunteers. Less-glamorous programs have genuine needs as well as openings.

I think I was well dressed for an interview. But I will take that into consideration. I am a guy and I was wearing a dark grey pinstripe 2 button suite with a white shirt. A blueish gray tie and brown shoes.

I will take the other suggestions into consideration. As I said before, I did start volunteering at a hospice (actually just got back from it) and I also made sure to tell the coordinator that she should judge me strictly because I want an amazing letter from her. I was going to take the advice from the other poster about free clinics and now I will add these to the list.

I have been shadowing and trying to shadow only MDs until now, but I will add DOs to my cold call list. Its crazy how many calls I made :/

Thank you for the suggestions.
 
I think I was well dressed for an interview. But I will take that into consideration. I am a guy and I was wearing a dark grey pinstripe 2 button suite with a white shirt. A blueish gray tie and brown shoes.

I will take the other suggestions into consideration. As I said before, I did start volunteering at a hospice (actually just got back from it) and I also made sure to tell the coordinator that she should judge me strictly because I want an amazing letter from her. I was going to take the advice from the other poster about free clinics and now I will add these to the list.

I have been shadowing and trying to shadow only MDs until now, but I will add DOs to my cold call list. Its crazy how many calls I made :/

Thank you for the suggestions.
??? shouldnt you be asking for the letter after you've been volunteering awhile? if I was the coordinator I would assume you are just there for a LOR and to get into med school and not because you really care
 
It is obvious to her that I care. Before I started, we had a talk in which we discussed my aspirations and goals. As part of that, I made sure to mention the letter. I didn't open with it, but rather ended with it.
 
My only advice is to make sure you do something very significant before applying again. Either significantly improve your MCAT or work full-time for a year or something like that. My adviser told me that one of the most common mistakes that re-applicants do is rush a re-application without adequately addressing weaknesses. If you got an interview, you are at least close to an acceptance, so I wouldn't give up. It sounds like you just need to work on your interview skills and add something significant to justify them giving you another chance.
 
Don't bother retaking the MCAT, you've already taken it three times and a 32 is fine. Your GPA is also fine, don't bother with the other degree programs unless you are truly interested in them because 1) degrees are expensive 2) they won't boost your undergrad GPA 3) your GPA is already in an acceptable range. It seems that what you need to do is quite clear: interview better, have a better PS (a couple of people have volunteered to help you, you should definitely take them up on that offer), and gain more clinical experience that will lead to a great LOR. Unfortunately, the last thing can't be pulled off quickly. Can you get in somewhere if you apply very broadly without more significant clinical experience? Yeah, maybe, I'm sure it happens. But for someone who wants this to be their final time applying you seem to be rushing that very critical piece along by wanting to apply this cycle. If you could secure a full-time clinical position and apply next year instead you'd have a much better chance not just because of the hours but because it looks like both previous cycles resulted in feedback about needing a more substantial EC LOR. Anyway, I would definitely advise that you let a non-biased professional look at your application in its entirety. We don't have all the details of your application and can't give you the best feedback. Good luck.
 
So, I was just reading another recent thread at
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...g-fired-from-scribe-job-adcom-please.1062039/

This made me think. Can I just not put my scribe job on my application? My concern is that I will be a re-applicant to most schools and they will know about this experience anyway. What do you guys think?

fwiw, i doubt schools are going to be comparing your amcas activities from this year to previous years, they only have so much time/resources, but im not sure.

more importantly, since there are only 15 spots for activities, if you can have 15 other experiences and are asked why you left scribing out (which would almost certainly never happen) you could say your other activities were more important to you.
 
Here are a few areas of weakness that I see:

1) You mentioned your were a scribe for 2 1/2 months and without that, you didn't have much clinical experience. You need more clinical experience. 2) you mentioned you've shadowed a doctor, but that was with only one doctor. You need to shadow different doctors, different specialities, and different environments (ER, office consult, surgery, etc.) 3) you need a LoR from evey PI you worked with, at least the main ones. If that's missing, it will look wrong. If you say you worked as a scribe, you'll need a LoR.

I think one of the reasons why the school seemed disapppointed you were not going into reserh was because that seems to be about the only "other" stuff you did. if you wear a navy, gray or black suit, you'll need to wear black shoes. Brown shoes go with khakis.
 
So any consensus on mentioning the scribe job?
 
So any consensus on mentioning the scribe job?
I work as an ER scribe so I can understand your desire to add this to your application. Out of all the volunteering, shadowing, etc. I have done, nothing compares to the medical exposure I attain on a daily basis as an ER scribe. It is a stressful, hard, low paying, educating, and life-changing job. I added this to my app.

Your case seems a bit different: you mentioned you were fired during training. So, in other words, you never actually worked as a scribe, only trained? Also please elaborate on your firing. Your original post explanation seems to be missing some detail.
 
I call the state school, they give me reason: I have to be more professional in my interview, My PS is disjointed and I should have had a recommendation from the scribe job. They also asked me why I did not consider doing research, being that I have so much experience in it (this was such a blow to my confidence :( )

One of the reasons they rejected you was because you didn't have a letter of rec from your scribe job? You had just started working there when you applied, why did they expect a LoR?

I worked as a scribe for 6 months, and never got a letter (because I already had an MD letter from shadowing). I never asked for a letter because I already had a great physician letter before getting the job. My scribe job better not hurt my app! Man, SDN is making me go crazy!!! Lol finding fake problems that I never even thought of.
 
Lots of people with a 3.5/29 have gotten into med school, so I think the focus on the numbers when you retook might have been off target. Fortunately you went up, not down so that won't hurt. But that still leaves the real question of why you didn't get in. Your ECs are light but I've seen worse. You really need to do some soul searching, maybe sit down with advisors who know you well. Are your LORs actually any good? Is your PS compelling and grammatically decent? Did you apply to enough schools in the right range? Do you stink at interviewing? Figure all this out before doing anything else, because you don't want to spend time fixing something that wasn't really broke.
 
I work as an ER scribe so I can understand your desire to add this to your application. Out of all the volunteering, shadowing, etc. I have done, nothing compares to the medical exposure I attain on a daily basis as an ER scribe. It is a stressful, hard, low paying, educating, and life-changing job. I added this to my app.

Your case seems a bit different: you mentioned you were fired during training. So, in other words, you never actually worked as a scribe, only trained? Also please elaborate on your firing. Your original post explanation seems to be missing some detail.

I was fired because, I wasn't doing a good job (keeping up with the training). Plain and simple, there wasn't any crazy act. I was studying for my MCAT and I just didn't have the time or interest to study medical terminology on top of that.

One of the reasons they rejected you was because you didn't have a letter of rec from your scribe job? You had just started working there when you applied, why did they expect a LoR?

I worked as a scribe for 6 months, and never got a letter (because I already had an MD letter from shadowing). I never asked for a letter because I already had a great physician letter before getting the job. My scribe job better not hurt my app! Man, SDN is making me go crazy!!! Lol finding fake problems that I never even thought of.

I don't know why they said that. I believe, they just had to say something. There were probably more qualified applicants, ah well.

Lots of people with a 3.5/29 have gotten into med school, so I think the focus on the numbers when you retook might have been off target. Fortunately you went up, not down so that won't hurt. But that still leaves the real question of why you didn't get in. Your ECs are light but I've seen worse. You really need to do some soul searching, maybe sit down with advisors who know you well. Are your LORs actually any good? Is your PS compelling and grammatically decent? Did you apply to enough schools in the right range? Do you stink at interviewing? Figure all this out before doing anything else, because you don't want to spend time fixing something that wasn't really broke.

I think I have identified my main mistakes after more searching. Although I sent the primary early, most of my secondaries were sent quite late and for some schools I didn't even send the secondaries. The schools that I did send the secondary to were a bit of a reach schools. It's easy to get caught up in the name game and not realize that the chances of me getting there are pretty slim. I won't do it this time, this time all of my schools are going to be "low-tier" and a few "mid-tier" ones sprinkled here and there. I have a rule to send the secondaries, two days after I receive them. I have also been working on a good personal statement. I have gone through like 6 drafts of it already.

To the people that volunteered to read my PS, can I still send it to you? I have been working on it since that day, but I just never got to one that I found was acceptable for me.
 
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