Here's a real life example of a new doctor's salary...

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Moonglow

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As part of my job, I work with Internal Medicine physicians who finished residency, and are looking for work.

Here's is a real example:

Female, unmarried, no children, 29 years-old - just finished three years of Internal Medicine residency at the hospital represented by my avatar. She decided to accept a five year contract to work as a hospitalist in another state starting November 1. Contract is with the hospital owned P.A. and stipulates: twelve hours per shift, alternating seven days on, seven days off (28 weeks of work time per year); she will work flexible hours, sometimes nights, others days. She wants the every other week schedule for personal reasons, and so that she can have the chance to do some clinical research. She has decided to pay off all of her student loans over the next five years; with interest, $240,000.

Here's her budget:

$180,000 gross in pay per year (plus annual bonus, ~ $5000)
$63,000 in taxes per year @ 35% rate
$117,000 take home pay per year

$9750 per month take home pay

----------------------------------------------------------

Average per month expenses:

$1800 mortgage/insurance for 2 bed, 2 bath upscale condo
$120 cable/internet
$150 gas/electric/water (higher per month in summer lower in winter)
$750 car payment/insurance
$150 gasoline
$120 cellphone
$400 food/dining
$200 misc entertainment (netflix, online music websites, movies, etc.)
$400 misc other (her consumer buying allowance, travel)
$4000 student loans

$8150 total

$1660 go into savings

----------------------------------------------------------

At the end of her five year contract she will be 34 years old, have five years of equity in her home, own her car, have her student loans paid, and have $100,000 cash in the bank.

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As part of my job, I work with Internal Medicine
$120 cable/internet
$120 cellphone

Who the hell pays that much for cable and cell phone? Those numbers do look pretty low. If you take out the 4000 student loan, I think I actually make more. If I were to be a doctor, it would be in neurosurgery only.
 
Who the hell pays that much for cable and cell phone? Those numbers do look pretty low. If you take out the 4000 student loan, I think I actually make more. If I were to be a doctor, it would be in neurosurgery only.


My cable and internet is right at 80/month and I don't have any premium channels, DVR, or HDTV... that seems about right. And if you get a phone package with a lot of minutes (needed in the buisness), internet, etc. thn it can add up.
 
At the end of her five year contract she will be 34 years old, have five years of equity in her home, own her car, have her student loans paid, and have $100,000 cash in the bank........



AND SHE WILL BE SINGLE AND EXHAUSTED. YAY!
 
As part of my job, I work with Internal Medicine physicians who finished residency, and are looking for work.

Here's is a real example:

Female, unmarried, no children, 29 years-old - just finished three years of Internal Medicine residency at the hospital represented by my avatar. She decided to accept a five year contract to work as a hospitalist in another state starting November 1. Contract is with the hospital owned P.A. and stipulates: twelve hours per shift, alternating seven days on, seven days off (28 weeks of work time per year); she will work flexible hours, sometimes nights, others days. She wants the every other week schedule for personal reasons, and so that she can have the chance to do some clinical research. She has decided to pay off all of her student loans over the next five years; with interest, $240,000.

Here's her budget:

$180,000 gross in pay per year (plus annual bonus, ~ $5000)
$63,000 in taxes per year @ 35% rate
$117,000 take home pay per year

$9750 per month take home pay

----------------------------------------------------------

Average per month expenses:

$1800 mortgage/insurance for 2 bed, 2 bath upscale condo
$120 cable/internet
$150 gas/electric/water (higher per month in summer lower in winter)
$750 car payment/insurance
$150 gasoline
$120 cellphone
$400 food/dining
$200 misc entertainment (netflix, online music websites, movies, etc.)
$400 misc other (her consumer buying allowance, travel)
$4000 student loans

$8150 total

$1660 go into savings

----------------------------------------------------------

At the end of her five year contract she will be 34 years old, have five years of equity in her home, own her car, have her student loans paid, and have $100,000 cash in the bank.


I'll bet the savings never happens and that money instead goes to daily life. Life never fits within the margins but your point is well taken that 200k in student loans isn't crushing by any means.
 
I'm told that the term "upscale condo" :D means that the property value should increase by a fair amount (~25%) over the next five years. And, of course the expenses numbers could change for many reasons, we were establishing a budget baseline.
 
Who doesn't? Unless you want three TV channels and a horrible phone, those costs look pretty standard.


I pay about $110 for phone/ internet 30mbs service, $120 for directv and $80 for a couple cell phones.

The estimation for gas electric etc. also seems really low, although it's apparently a small condo. For a house we're paying up to $300 a month in gas during the winter and $200 electric during the summer.
 
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At the end of her five year contract she will be 34 years old, have five years of equity in her home, own her car, have her student loans paid, and have $100,000 cash in the bank........



AND SHE WILL BE SINGLE AND EXHAUSTED. YAY!


Why? She works 7 days and then has 7 days off.
 
Reduce those savings by about $300 to make some of those other prices more realistic/inclusive and you've got a pretty standard schedule. That's a lot of debt and she seems to be handling it well.
 
Will she be able to put the full $1600 into savings each month for five years, probably not - and, her average expenses will go up some. But, some monthly savings (denoted for future expenses) should be considered an important part of a doctor's personal finances.
 
that's pretty good and some people with 200K+ debt usually go with 10-20 year plan, which makes the monthly student loan around 2K, so lets say if she went with 10 year plan, she would had $3,600 savings at the end of the month.

this reminds of this story on CNN on a couple who paid off $123,000 debt in less than 5 years making less than $60,000/year
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2009/10/19/digging.out.of.debt.cnn
 
lol. it's always more entertaining with mdchemsooneng
 
Doesn't sound too bad for someone fresh out of residency imo. She's also in a "low" paying field, right? (Relative to other fields, of course).

I do question the 1800 mortgage, though. Where is this at? My parents are paying off a mortagage on a very large and expensive home, and it's not much more than that. I realize how long the loan is for, down payment, rate, etc all factor into this, but I can't imagine a 2k/mo mortgage on a condo. My brother stupidly did a 15 year mortgage on his house instead of a 30 and he's not even paying $1800.
 
1800 sounds about right for a decent condo in a northeast metro region at least (excluding manhattan)
 
My brother stupidly did a 15 year mortgage on his house instead of a 30 and he's not even paying $1800.

Stupidly? There's a lot to be said for only having 7 years left to pay on your house and if they yank the mortgage interest deduction people on 30 years are going to be in trouble.

The $1800 is reasonable considering association fees etc. will be in there. On a $x 15 year loan at 5.25% with property tax and insurance for a $x50,000 house I pay about $x000 a month.
 
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I do question the 1800 mortgage, though. Where is this at? My parents are paying off a mortagage on a very large and expensive home, and it's not much more than that. I realize how long the loan is for, down payment, rate, etc all factor into this, but I can't imagine a 2k/mo mortgage on a condo.

You must be in a really low cost of living area. 2k/month could happen on a 300k mortgage, which in many areas isn't all that expensive.

My brother stupidly did a 15 year mortgage on his house instead of a 30 and he's not even paying $1800.
That's not stupid.
 
Not an accountant, but with a progressive tax rate , the figure given for federal income tax liability could be way high. Should be closer to $44,543 (according to the cheezy on-line calculator I found) on $180,000 income with no deductions (and there would at least be some, especially with a mortgage). Maybe someone with actual accounting experience can enlighten us all.
 
Not an accountant, but with a progressive tax rate , the figure given for federal income tax liability could be way high. Should be closer to $44,543 (according to the cheezy on-line calculator I found) on $180,000 income with no deductions (and there would at least be some, especially with a mortgage). Maybe someone with actual accounting experience can enlighten us all.

There's normally also a state income tax and often municipal income taxes on top of that. 35% overall tax burden is actually too low for many places. Maybe she's going to Texas or another enlightened state that doesn't have a repressive income tax pushing people to not work.
 
There's normally also a state income tax and often municipal income taxes on top of that. 35% overall tax burden is actually too low for many places. Maybe she's going to Texas or another enlightened state that doesn't have a repressive income tax pushing people to not work.

don't forget to mention payroll taxes (social security and medicare) up to ~100,000 at 7.65%, add about 5% average for state.

The poster two above had it at 44K or about 25%, add that to the above, we're looking at 34.5%.

But we also can deduct interest payments on the student loans AND the posh condo, which will likely put you under 35% after all. Your AGI (adjusted gross income) will likely be in the 124,000 dollar range so your tax liability is much lower than 34.5%.
 
I'm told that the term "upscale condo" :D means that the property value should increase by a fair amount (~25%) over the next five years. And, of course the expenses numbers could change for many reasons, we were establishing a budget baseline.


What area of the country is the condo in? I'm not sure why people think the 1800 mortgage payment is so unbelievable.
 
That is a very nice budget. Where is the professional liability insurance?
 
There's normally also a state income tax and often municipal income taxes on top of that. 35% overall tax burden is actually too low for many places. Maybe she's going to Texas or another enlightened state that doesn't have a repressive income tax pushing people to not work.

Oh, Texas takes it's pound of flesh. Not through income taxes, but it still gets a full 16 oz.
 
Keep in mind that many of these salaried positions may rely on a loan, so you may have a guaranteed salary for X years, you may then be on your own to maintain your income by increasing your patient volume. If you don't perform, then you may have to "repay" your loan.
 
sound like an original high roller.
 
:eek: geez... after seeing the $ per month to pay for that nice pricey medical education, med school needs to be funded and the students need to be paid a stipend like in PhD programs ;) dream on as aerosmith would say... anyone want to start a petition :p
 
I think someone on a podcast said it perfectly when it comes to med education - 'society doesn't feel sorry for you'

It was so true and so hard to swallow - there are very few scholarships available. But loans aplenty, for good reason.

I will sign the petition, though.
 
My brother stupidly did a 15 year mortgage on his house instead of a 30 and he's not even paying $1800.

Stupidly??? I personally think that is the smartest way to do it. My parents are on a 15 yr on our home (a large 4/ 2.5 in metro Atlanta) and they pay extra each month to be done even sooner. I know that once I stop renting (after residency/fellowship) I will only do a 15 year note... I want my house paid off asap...

The surgeon I nanny for paid off his student loans in about 3-4 years (public undergrad, private grad) and is almost done paying off his house and lake house which together are valued at near 1.8 million (those he has had maybe 5-7 years)
 
I think the take-home pay is pretty damn good for: a) not having to spend additional years training for a specialty while receiving low pay and b) only working every other week.
 
I think the take-home pay is pretty damn good for: a) not having to spend additional years training for a specialty while receiving low pay and b) only working every other week.

True she only work every other week, but when you add up the hours it is still more than the standard 40 hr work week (2000 hrs a year). She's working at least 84 hrs on those weeks (assuming she can actually go home after 12 hrs. The hospitalists where I moonlight are lucky if they only work 12 hr days the weeks they are on.)
 
I think someone on a podcast said it perfectly when it comes to med education - 'society doesn't feel sorry for you'

It was so true and so hard to swallow - there are very few scholarships available. But loans aplenty, for good reason.

I will sign the petition, though.
This is probably the most scary part for physicians -- how do you justify a $150,000 to people who average $40k? How do you say "I'm not making enough money" when you're making so much more than they are?

That's why physicians' salaries are so easy to attack.
 
No babies? That 34 year old uterus is starting to get a little long in the tooth. Those little kidlets can wreak havoc on your budget but they are worth it. Personally, I want the babies.

If you factor in babies, that budget goes to hell.

But she is a 29 year old female, unmarried and no kids. So in five years, she is a 34 year old single female, unmarried, no kids, with 100 grand in the bank and a professional job. Sounds bleak to me.

Perhaps she has a cat, a self sufficient cat who enjoys spending time alone.
 
I'm just saying, here is a thread where people (including me) were arguing about this exact same thing.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=671557

It's funny because people didn't believe that it could be done. But as everyone can see. It's very doable to have a nice life with a mountain of debt.
I don't think anyone argued that it can't be done, they argued that the life you'd have wouldn't be considered "nice" by some standards. They also argued the numbers, which this thread lays out more concretely and accurately.
 
I don't think anyone argued that it can't be done, they argued that the life you'd have wouldn't be considered "nice" by some standards. They also argued the numbers, which this thread lays out more concretely and accurately.
i also want to bring up the point that a hospitalist/intensivist would generally be employed at a large well funded hospital with relatively good pay. i think the main financial concern raised was for those who would like to do fp/peds
 
No babies? That 34 year old uterus is starting to get a little long in the tooth. Those little kidlets can wreak havoc on your budget but they are worth it. Personally, I want the babies.

If you factor in babies, that budget goes to hell.

But she is a 29 year old female, unmarried and no kids. So in five years, she is a 34 year old single female, unmarried, no kids, with 100 grand in the bank and a professional job. Sounds bleak to me.

Perhaps she has a cat, a self sufficient cat who enjoys spending time alone.

well if she has baby then chances are she'll have a husband too and that's an extra income.
 
Stupidly??? I personally think that is the smartest way to do it. My parents are on a 15 yr on our home (a large 4/ 2.5 in metro Atlanta) and they pay extra each month to be done even sooner. I know that once I stop renting (after residency/fellowship) I will only do a 15 year note... I want my house paid off asap...

The surgeon I nanny for paid off his student loans in about 3-4 years (public undergrad, private grad) and is almost done paying off his house and lake house which together are valued at near 1.8 million (those he has had maybe 5-7 years)

Well, he could've knocked his $1500 mortgage to $900. Then he could've taken that extra $600/mo and invested it instead of sinking it into his house.
 
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