Here's how to solve our healthcare crisis.. Work for free

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Rocher

Hazelnut Goodness
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33197187/ns/health-health_care/

Don't get me wrong it is awesome what this guy is doing, I just can't help but think this article has a political agenda.

"Maybe," he says, "if we took care of everybody, we wouldn't need reform."

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Great service but not for everyone. Also, he is private practice with his father in GI which brings enough $$$ so he can then pursue his passion. This would not be feasible for a primary care physician barely scraping by.
 
So who's going to volunteer to pay my medical school loans back?
 
"When did it become acceptable in my profession," says the 53-year-old physician, "to say 'No' to somebody because they have no money?"

The same time it became acceptable to deny people free goods and services of any other kind.
 
The same time it became acceptable to deny people free goods and services of any other kind.

I read this article to and I think its unbelievable. I find the idealistic people on SDN irritating.
 
even if you work for free who is going to pay for the following things

-office rent/mortgage
-electric, water, internet bill of said office
-salaries of your secretaries, nurses, janitor, PA
-cost of disposable medical equipment and lab fees for procedures
-cost of other medical equipment
-your malpractice insurance

to quote Dr. joe and answers his question

"When did it become acceptable in my profession," says the 53-year-old physician, "to say 'No' to somebody because they have no money?"

Its always been acceptable, altruism and charity is great but there would be no doctors if we are paid nothing.

Are you going to tell your wife and kids sorry there is no college, house, food anymore because there are sick people out there with no money to pay me and its wrong to say no.
 
Number of medical school graduates (rounded up): 20,000/year
Amount of debt they have upon graduation (rounded up): $200,000

Total annual medical education loan debt: $4 billion

Amount of annual PROFIT (after expenses, salaries, executive bonuses, everything, i.e. real profit):

United HealthCare (2008): $2.97 billion
Aetna (2008): $1.38 billion
Cigna (2007): $1.1 billion

These profits come SOLELY from the premiums paid by the patients and future patients of the med school graduates who are saddled with debt.

What is wrong with smaller profits, or, here is a radical idea, NON-profit insurance companies?

For anyone wondering about who will pay for their med school loans, please make some clever deductions based on the above information.

Edit: I am not just picking on those 3 companies, I could include many others and REALLY make the total profits look huge, but I think this illustrates the point sufficiently.
 
Number of medical school graduates (rounded up): 20,000/year
Amount of debt they have upon graduation (rounded up): $200,000

Total annual medical education loan debt: $4 billion

Amount of annual PROFIT (after expenses, salaries, executive bonuses, everything, i.e. real profit):

United HealthCare (2008): $2.97 billion
Aetna (2008): $1.38 billion
Cigna (2007): $1.1 billion

These profits come SOLELY from the premiums paid by the patients and future patients of the med school graduates who are saddled with debt.

What is wrong with smaller profits, or, here is a radical idea, NON-profit insurance companies?

For anyone wondering about who will pay for their med school loans, please make some clever deductions based on the above information.

Edit: I am not just picking on those 3 companies, I could include many others and REALLY make the total profits look huge, but I think this illustrates the point sufficiently.

The profits are going to health insurance companies. They're not going to the physicians to pay off medical school debt. Now, if you're talking about funneling those profits to the physicians who are doing the work SO that they can pay off their medical school debt, I'm all for it. That would require an entirely non-profit administrator (like the government, which entails its own problems). And, it assumes that the government wouldn't try to cut back doctors' reimbursement in other ways. About that I am not convinced. Though I am encouraged by Congress' attempt to offer 250 billion to keep Medicare reimbursement from plummeting by 20%.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33197187/ns/health-health_care/

Don't get me wrong it is awesome what this guy is doing, I just can't help but think this article has a political agenda.

"Maybe," he says, "if we took care of everybody, we wouldn't need reform."

I hate it when people who were smart enough to become physicians say things THAT stupid.

That's like saying, "maybe we wouldn't have hunger if everybody just ate." What an idiot.
 
Number of medical school graduates (rounded up): 20,000/year
Amount of debt they have upon graduation (rounded up): $200,000

Total annual medical education loan debt: $4 billion

Amount of annual PROFIT (after expenses, salaries, executive bonuses, everything, i.e. real profit):

United HealthCare (2008): $2.97 billion
Aetna (2008): $1.38 billion
Cigna (2007): $1.1 billion

These profits come SOLELY from the premiums paid by the patients and future patients of the med school graduates who are saddled with debt.

What is wrong with smaller profits, or, here is a radical idea, NON-profit insurance companies?

For anyone wondering about who will pay for their med school loans, please make some clever deductions based on the above information.

Edit: I am not just picking on those 3 companies, I could include many others and REALLY make the total profits look huge, but I think this illustrates the point sufficiently.
Here is the problem with that theory. If we need to insure 300,000,000 people, then a 3,000,000,000 profit isn't that big of a deal. I know that's not every insurance company, but let's just assume they're the big ones and they make the bulk of the profit. Let's say total health insurance profit is double the sum of those three companies. Take that number, divide it by 300M people, and you've saved $36/yr-person.
 
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Number of medical school graduates (rounded up): 20,000/year
Amount of debt they have upon graduation (rounded up): $200,000

Total annual medical education loan debt: $4 billion

Amount of annual PROFIT (after expenses, salaries, executive bonuses, everything, i.e. real profit):

United HealthCare (2008): $2.97 billion
Aetna (2008): $1.38 billion
Cigna (2007): $1.1 billion

These profits come SOLELY from the premiums paid by the patients and future patients of the med school graduates who are saddled with debt.

What is wrong with smaller profits, or, here is a radical idea, NON-profit insurance companies?

For anyone wondering about who will pay for their med school loans, please make some clever deductions based on the above information.

Edit: I am not just picking on those 3 companies, I could include many others and REALLY make the total profits look huge, but I think this illustrates the point sufficiently.

...and what point, exactly, were you attempting to make?
 
Here is the problem with that theory. If we need to insure 300,000,000 people, then a 3,000,000,000 profit isn't that big of a deal. I know that's not every insurance company, but let's just assume they're the big ones and they make the bulk of the profit. Let's say total health insurance profit is double the sum of those three companies. Take that number, divide it by 300M people, and you've saved $36/yr-person.

Here's the problem with your problem. Profit is the small tip of the iceberg in terms of the cost of healthcare, and UNH's $3B profit comes from providing care for only a fraction of that 300M. If you take a moment to read the financial statement from UNH for FY '08, their gross revenues were $81.2 billion, of which $73.6 billion came from policy premiums. They paid out $60.3 billion in actual medical costs (averaging out to $861.43 per capita based on the admittedly fuzzy 70 million individuals covered by one UNH product or another), and expended $13.1 billion in "operating expenses". Simply put, Americans are spending $16 billion in money earmarked for healthcare for this company to exist and to turn a $3 billion profit.

The concept of pirating these corporate profits to lower the overall cost of healthcare or to pay off medical debt or anything else ignores the underlying problem: even with all the profits stripped away, you're still left with a big, complex, bureaucratic machine, the care and feeding of which requires hundreds of billions of dollars. If you have a UNH policy, $19.70 out of every $100 withheld from your paycheck for health insurance is applied directly to overhead and profit. If you want to regulate insurance companies, start there. Let the government mandate a benchmark percentage for operating expenses, then play Robin Hood by penalizing the inefficient and rewarding the efficient.

Wait, did we just hijack the thread? Sorry about that...
 
Here's the problem with your problem. Profit is the small tip of the iceberg in terms of the cost of healthcare, and UNH's $3B profit comes from providing care for only a fraction of that 300M. If you take a moment to read the financial statement from UNH for FY '08, their gross revenues were $81.2 billion, of which $73.6 billion came from policy premiums. They paid out $60.3 billion in actual medical costs (averaging out to $861.43 per capita based on the admittedly fuzzy 70 million individuals covered by one UNH product or another), and expended $13.1 billion in "operating expenses". Simply put, Americans are spending $16 billion in money earmarked for healthcare for this company to exist and to turn a $3 billion profit.
That's all good and dandy and I'm not arguing with what you're saying, and I'm not arguing that larger problems exist than the profit. In fact, I was making the point that profit IS a minor player. And, you're right... there aren't 300M people with medical coverage, I think the number was 270M. So, add a few more dollars to the number I used.

The concept of pirating these corporate profits to lower the overall cost of healthcare or to pay off medical debt or anything else ignores the underlying problem:
And that's all I was really getting at with my very vague calculations. I don't expect my numbers to be correct... hell, even if I'm off by a factor of 10 it's still doesn't have too much effect on the point I was making, which I think you actually agree with.
 
...and what point, exactly, were you attempting to make?

Funny, I didn't think I would have to explain, but I guess I should.

If you have a for-profit entity sitting between you and your patient
... and that entity derives its profit from money your patient pays to them for the care YOU will provide to the patient
... and that entity has ZERO interest in or concern for your patient or you (in fact that entity is legally bound to be concerned about turning a profit, which by definition means either limiting the care your patient can get for his/her money and/or paying you less)
... would it not be wiser to take that profit from insurance companies and use it to pay for you education, so that you will have more freedom providing care to your patient (the one who paid for the profit in the first place and maybe even his sister who lost her job and can't pay into the pot right now) without being crushed by student loan debt?

We all complain about the obscene amount of debt medical school graduates and residents must bear. And yet, we do not seem to be too eager to look for solutions to lower the financial burden of becoming a physician. We do not seem to be incensed that physicians go into debt and rigorous training, work for minimum wage while in residency, only to come out on the other end and discover that the insurance company takes their patients' money in ADVANCE and then decides if, how much, and when the physician will get paid, as long as it does not cut too much into the company's profit margin. There does appear to be more outrage against Medicare/Medicaid (which indeed deserve all the outrage flung at them, but that is another story), but I am baffled by the lack of similar outrage against the for-profit insurance companies.
 
I agree with the above posters that profit is NOT the biggest problem, but it is something glaring and immediate. It is a place to start, IMHO.

The reason I see it as a place to start is because dismantling insurance companies means job losses, which is never good for the overall economy. I didn't even hammer on the fact that the profit is AFTER the insane executive pay has been subtracted (Dr. Bill McGuire, anyone?). What I am trying to highlight is that even if insurance companies continued to exist in their current form, and even if they CONTINUED to pay outrageous executive salaries and bonuses, they could still pay for the eduction of EVERY SINGLE PHYSICIAN in this country (with LESS THAN the profits of just 3 of the top companies).

One additional point, because physicians refuse to distance themselves from insurance companies, they are now being vilified by the public (and acting quite surprised). Indeed, if I am a patient who does not have much knowledge about medical reimbursement or insurance company obligations to their stockholders (and I do believe the average patient does not), and I pay fairly high premiums every month for my health insurance, and after visiting your office and paying my copay I get a large bill for whatever has not been covered by the insurance company - I may start viewing you as the "greedy doctor". The average reaction, as we see being played out on the streets and in the media, is that you (the doctor) must have ordered unnecessary tests or charged too much for your services to make more money. Why? Because, in the minds of the average patient, if all the insurance company "guidelines" and all the doctors working for the insurance company say your work is not worth what you charge for it or is not necessary at all, then you must be a greedy [insert-abbreviation-for-dyspnea]. Over the previous 3 decades, the insurance companies (including the governmental ones, HMOs, etc.) have carried out a systematic covert character assassination campaign against physicians, while physicians have been asleep at the wheel (at best) or actively helping them.
 
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I'm working right now so that I can pay more taxes to further subsidize the welfare nanny state... I'll be back after work... and I'll be sure to bring a flashlight to illuminate a few things, but do not swallow the progressive hook and believe that "profit" is the all evil destroyer just yet (nor take the myopic view on repayment or subsidizing educational debt). :D
 
Based on Congress' failure today to deal with Medicare reimbursement, looks like we may all just get our chance to work for free.
 
OK....

Here is a position that apparently does not occur to most in the medical profession: the health insurance industry serves a vital role in the delivery of modern healthcare. As pointed out above, health care today is vastly different than the pre-MC era where direct patient contracting was much more feasible. Inpatient care, outpatient procedures, chemotherapy, nuclear imaging, etc are all far too expensive to provide to offer cheaply, and are far too expensive to be affordable or attainable for the masses. Even if the genesis of the third party payer system had not arisen from misguided wage and price controls, the need for it would have arisen as treatments advanced in both efficacy and cost. Granted, the rate of cost escalation would likely have been remarkably different were it not for the large infusion of funds that is the result of the disconnect between consumer and payer...

I, like most practicing docs, very much have a love/hate relationship with private insurers. It is a constant battle to maintain fee schedules, battle denials, delays, etc -- yet I appreciate that they represent the most profitable segment of our business. They (begrudgingly) subsidize governmental payers.... as well as charity care, affording us the ability to see these less profitable payer classes.

In trade for providing this needed service, a premium must be paid. The amount of this premium (profit) will vary according to the competition in the marketplace and the relative efficiency between firms. An insurance company is only able to charge an employer an amount comparable to what a competitor is willing to provide similar service for.

Unfortunately, I fear that physicians will continue to suffer in public opinion due to greater changes in societal thought at large. The vilification of high wage earners is a populist method employed whenever there is general distress in an economy. It constitutes class warfare, and employs covet means in order to further an agenda that runs counter to the individual. We are in the midst of a wide swing of the pendulum; one can only hope that it swings back before my generation's earning years are passed... and my children's generation is irreparably saddled with the servicing of irresponsible public debt -- which will only be worsened by an expansion of federal entitlements.
 
OK....

Here is a position that apparently does not occur to most in the medical profession: the health insurance industry serves a vital role in the delivery of modern healthcare. As pointed out above, health care today is vastly different than the pre-MC era where direct patient contracting was much more feasible. Inpatient care, outpatient procedures, chemotherapy, nuclear imaging, etc are all far too expensive to provide to offer cheaply, and are far too expensive to be affordable or attainable for the masses. Even if the genesis of the third party payer system had not arisen from misguided wage and price controls, the need for it would have arisen as treatments advanced in both efficacy and cost. Granted, the rate of cost escalation would likely have been remarkably different were it not for the large infusion of funds that is the result of the disconnect between consumer and payer...

I, like most practicing docs, very much have a love/hate relationship with private insurers. It is a constant battle to maintain fee schedules, battle denials, delays, etc -- yet I appreciate that they represent the most profitable segment of our business. They (begrudgingly) subsidize governmental payers.... as well as charity care, affording us the ability to see these less profitable payer classes.

Mohs, I've enjoyed your posts on this subject, and I suspect we are more philosophically aligned than not. I appreciate the fundamental value of insurance as pooled risk, and I'm actually a fairly staunch fan of profit, despite my rantings above. The other thing I'll credit insurance companies for is...

...wait for it...

...death panels! Yeah, I said it. One thing we are collectively guilty of in oncology is offering expensive treatments with little or no benefit during the last few months of life. If we table the potentially ugly spectre of profit motive for a moment, we do this because even if we in some way acknowledge the cost of the therapy, our primary missive is to provide care for the patient in front of us, and frankly few of us want to be the bad guy who says "Well, there is something out there, but I'm afraid you can't afford it". Having a nameless, faceless conglomerate like the insurance company jump on the grenade and say "that's ridiculous, we're not paying for that" in a way absolves us of being the bad guy. Deep down, in places we don't like to talk about, we want them on that wall; we need them on that wall!

The issue I have with insurance company profits (and maybe I should amend it to read something like record profits) is the mechanism by which these these profits are frequently derived, namely doing nothing to defray the cost of care other than passing it on to individuals, employers and care providers. Think about my proposal above, asking a for-profit insurer to contribute to lowering the overall cost of care by reducing their margins, whether by lowering the overall profit or reducing overhead. Isn't this the exact same thing that they routinely ask of policyholders and care providers when they raise premiums or cut reimbursements? And while we can, in theory, tell the insurer to get lost and find a suitable competitor in the "free market", it is rarely a practical consideration.

As an example, if you run a small business, how happy will your staff be if you change your insurer four times in a year to take advantage of a more competitive cost scheme, only to have some (many?) of them lose their PCPs with whom they may have been perfectly happy. The insurers know that this creates a leveraged position (a similar concept would apply to providers and the potential loss of referral base) that ensures a greater likelihood of everyone maintaining the status quo and merely accepting any rate hikes as the cost of doing business.

FWIW, I think the current level of government involvement already fouls up the system, as you were probably alluding to by the "large infusion of funds". The fact that most insurers peg their reimbursements to the CMS schedule, which results in chronic underpayment for some things and chronic overpayment for others. Of course, from our side of things the temptation will be to push the more lucrative tests and procedures, which is admittedly sometimes done for pure profit motive, but occasionally because failure to do so will put a practice that is already skating on razor-thin margins completely out of business. And lest the populace rejoice that some evil money-grubbing doctor has received his comeuppance, consider that he/she was also running a small business, and now his/her salt-of-the-earth clerical and support staff is also out of a job.

Long story short: The system is broken (duh), but a government-based fix will probably create more problems than it solves. And I'm still not a huge fan of for-profit insurers. Except for the death panel part.
 
"We want them on that wall; we need them on that wall!" So, where's Jack Nicholson when we need him?
 
Insurance is little more than legal gambling where the house makes all of the rules and can change them mid roll. Since they basically operate as casinos, it would make sense to me to have mandatory payout ratios.
:thumbup: I have been saying this for years now (premiums buy you "shares" of the company, and any profits are distributed amongst all of the shareholders.) However, this is tantamount to making all insurance companies nonprofit (if mandated.) Not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
:thumbup: I have been saying this for years now (premiums buy you "shares" of the company, and any profits are distributed amongst all of the shareholders.) However, this is tantamount to making all insurance companies nonprofit (if mandated.) Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I don't believe that would be the case, although I have often wondered why a non-profit competitor has not performed better in this market. The gaming industry is regulated in this way, and they are clearly for profit.
 
Most of the best hospitals in the country are non-profit. So should insurance companies.
 
...and so where does this line of logic end?

When it's a service not essential to public wellness. I don't have a problem with for-profits existing along side if they can compete, just like for-profit hospitals exist, but that non-profits should be created to give some competition to for-profits.

If you have non-profit insurance industry and a for-profit one comes along offering something better, I'd be fine with that. But they must be forced to compete with entities that can provide good service without the extra cents per dollar that go straight to profit.
 
not essential to public wellness.

Isn't the phrase "essential to public wellness" rather extensive? Lot's of things besides healthcare could be construed as "essential to public wellness." Dude, what you're arguing for is socialism. Read up on Stalin and whatnot and see how that worked for people. I'll take my freedom, thanks. Move to China. I think you'd like it. :)
 
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