Hey fellow men and women of medicine

[turtleboard]

The past several weeks have been quite revealing to me.

Apparently I've made some comments that have offended some of you in the osteopathic community.

With each of my posts, I try to be as neutral as possible and present the facts as they have been presented to me through various sources. Those who know me will know that I am not in the habit of posting information without checking to make sure. If I am unsure, however, I will NOTE this in my post.

This is why many do enjoy reading my posts, I believe. My posts are chock full of facts that can easily be referenced, while many other posts are almost entirely anecdotal.

Several weeks ago I posted what I have gathered over the years regarding residency options for MD and DO graduates. Many of you in the osteopathic community did not like my post. It wasn't the most flattering of posts directed at the DO community, I'll admit, but it wasn't based on my thoughts alone.

I've come to the following realization. To post anything on this forum that is REMOTELY negative about the DO profession is impossible to do, whether you're an allopathic student or an osteopathic student (but more so if you're an allopathic student it seems), without being lambasted by all the die-hard DOs. But when the flood gates on those mouths of you die-hard DOs open, and stuff starts flying about how MDs are this and that, NONE of you will say anything -- even those of you who know that what's been said is offensive to MDs, and is just as bad as anything an ignorant MD would say about a DO.

If this is the kind of "network" you'd like to have, where the majority (in this case, DOs) overrules the voice of the minority (in this case, MDs), fine with me.

If this network is nothing more than a public relations project for DOs, and has nothing to do with answering the questions of prospective students who are concerned for their own careers, fine with me.

If this network wants to silence the voices which seek to give a more balanced picture to students who ASK US to give them the truth, fine with me.

Those of you who participate in this forum solely to say "DOs are so great, EVERYONE should be one" are doing exactly what you alledge the AOA is doing to DOs. You guys are eating your own young. You have no interest in giving the option to these students, and providing them with a balanced picture.

If that rests easily with your conscience, all the more power to you.

I've grown probably as tired of defending my posts as you have in reading them. I will probably no longer participate in the osteopathic forums, and wait for things to happen in the allopathic forums. It's too bad really. I've never claimed to be an expert on DO medicine, but I have read probably more about the subject than most of you have -- even you die-hard DOs -- so I've always felt I could give the most balanced picture.

Good day to you all. It's time to retire.

******, MS1
SUNY Downstate Medical Center

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[RollTide]

Wow!

Tim,

I am very sorry that you have come to the decision you have concerning the message boards. Your opinions are valued here even if it may not seem that way at times. There have been times that I have disagreed with conclusions you have made in your posts but I have always respected your opinion as a future physician. Your perspectives on many issues have been an asset to all of us here at studentdoctor.net. Just because many of us hard core D.O. supporters feel that sometimes you are a little out-of-bounds with comments you make does not mean your statements are any less important than our own. I think the whole purpose of these boards is to foster insight and provide support for those who are going through the same process as we did/are. Your "story" concerning how you have chosen allopathic medicine after considering osteopathic medicine provides valuable information for those who are still deciding on which path is best for them. Just because we disagree is no reason to feel like you should or want to stop posting here. As for me Tim, I hope to disagree with you many more times so i hope you will reconsider

P.S. I resent the negative comments you made about the AOA (yes, i know this statement was originally made by a D.O. student).

-Joshua

 

[turtleboard]

It's not about how my posts are treated. I've got pretty thick skin and you can say anything about me, short of something about my mom, and it won't bother me.

I'm not looking for an outpouring of "please come back" posts.

The StudentDoctor forum is a great outlet for information to osteopathic students. There's nothing else like it on the net. Students posting to the Princeton Review website about osteopathic medicine are continually being referred to this site. That's great!

But what they get on this site, sometimes, is the same stuff they get on the Princeton Review site in reverse.

Is this any way to give students the necessary information to make correct choices? Does either profession need more ill-informed premeds? Of course not.

I once wrote a research paper for a professor in education history, and she returned it to me with the comment "Too much Ravitch, not enough Wu." Ravitch, of course, is the author whose works I relied upon most. My comment to her was that my paper is based on Ravitch primarily because Ravitch knows what she's talking about. While I know a thing or two, to include that would steer the paper in the wrong direction. It's no longer a vehicle of education. It's a soap box.

Nothing I say on this forum has never been said before or cannot be found in published form. And that's something I stand by.

Students who are confused about the differences between the two professions should really be given a better perspective. They currently can't get it anywhere but here because it's only on this site where you have both osteopathic and allopathic students posting.

We will disagree on many things. That's just one of many constants of the universe. I look forward to being able to discuss different issues in depth. What I don't look forward to, however, is having to restate the same points in defense of my posts, all of which are related to my alleged intolerance of the DO world. I don't think any of the more interesting threads have ever gone beyond my saying, "I don't have any distaste for DOs" and some others saying, "You hate DOs."

Tim of New York City.
(where the soap boxes probably need to be torn down before the porn shops)

 

[dlbruch]

Tim- I, too, value what you have contributed to this board and would be sorry to see you go. I wonder, though, if your standards are a bit high regarding the accuracy of these posts on this board. In my opinion, anyone who has a sincere interest in medicine should do real research into the profession, including the differences between MD and DO. I don't think it is appropriate to use information gathered on a board like this one in any other way than to stimulate further research or simply share experieces and/or opinions. It is foolish for anyone to take something they see here as fact unless they can confirm it by a reliable source.

Also, I agree that the board favors DO's and they (we) can at times be defensive or argumentative. It seems we still feel we have a lot to prove to gain the respect we deserve. I did research the differences between MD and DO myself and came to the conclusion that DO is the way for me. But, I think that is a decision we each have to make based on our interests, our philosophy toward patient care, and our future career goals. Of course MD is a highly respectable degree and should be treated as such. I offer my applogies on behalf of those who have not always treated our MD colleagues well.

Finally, I appreciate the balanced perspective gained from having MD students on this site. If we were entirely DO, we would be even more self-involved and self-serving than we are now. Please don't leave us to that fate!

 

[DOPhD student]

Tim, nobody on this board is bashing or badmouthing allopathy. For God's sake, allopathy and osteopathy are practically the same thing, and that's not just my point of view but also the point of view of people in the field. An MD, I believe it was Tim Gorski, wrote something to the effect that there's no such thing as allopathy as there isn't osteopathy. Medicine is medicine, even though it might be practiced with a slightly different slant of philosophy, but the standards of care and the definitions of diseases are uniform across the board for physicians. Therefore, it amuses me, as it might have others, that you're so worry about politics - but that's typical of a freshman, someone who's trying to find his footing on new ground. As an example, in another post, some individual claimed that DOs can use the MD initials. I snickered and thought to myself why a DO would want to do that is beyond me. Then not to my surprise, you responded to correct this misinformed individual. I appreciate that, but what I did not appreciate is that you made claim that the DO profession is an entirely "separate" profession. Now what exactly is a profession? A profession is a career or activity a person is involved in to make his daily living. Now, I assume you believe MDs practice medicine as a profession, what do you suppose DOs practice as a profession? Even as I joined the AOA and the AMA as a student member back in '96, I received letters from several medical and osteopathic organizations welcoming me to the "profession of medicine," what do you think they meant by that? I would assert that MD and DO students pursue different degrees but the same profession. Anyway, I think you get my point. Most of your posts have shown the "we" and "them" mentality, which I don't mind. What I have a problem with is your continual denial and your concealment behind a facade of civility, and that my disingenuous friend, is what I see and dislike about you (so you can take my comments personally and not professionally as I have nothing against you as an MD student but rather as a person). I'm telling you these things because you should know that most people who use this board are using it as a form of entertainment. You shouldn't get offended so easily by taking anyone's opinions of you so seriously if indeed you don't have too high of an opinion of yourself. Some folks (or at least, I) don't take your opinions very seriously. Just enjoy yourself and post whatever and wherever you want and people will take everything you say with a grain of salt as you should do the same with everyone else.

 

[drusso]

Tim (of New York City),

We've exchanged emails off of the board and you know that I respect your opinion. I follow most of these threads pretty closely and routinely answer emails from prospective premeds (both publicly and privately) and have done so for years. I'm disturbed that you think that this group is misrepresenting the osteopathic profession to premeds. To be honest with you, I just don't see your point.

Let's keep our civility in check and try to address Tim's point: This site has a number of FAQ's about premed education, medical school admissions, and the residency application process. It's been put together by students, residents, and physicians. Many of those same folks also answer premed questions on-line. How do you think we're being biased or misleading?

--Dave

 

[turtleboard]

Dave,

You and I are part of the old m.e.m. group. Questions regarding the osteopathic profession would, every now and then, come up and answers were usually supplied by the same group of people (mainly osteopathic med students and premeds, like myself at the time, who were interested in osteopathic medicine).

My posts today on the StudentDoctor forums and those which are probably still somewhere on m.e.m. are no different. The osteopathic students accepted the posts as based on fact, and never once read into them anything more than what was written.

On this forum, it's different. I understand that I'm not dealing with the same set of personalities, but that still doesn't explain so many of the things that I continually have to defend. In DO/PhD's response above, he asks why I have chosen to separate the osteopathic profession from the allopathic profession. He says they should be both a part of the same profession, and says that when I separate them, I magically insinuate that MDs practice medicine and DOs practice something entirely removed from medicine. The problem with his argument is that I'm not the one who began using terms like the "osteopathic profession," the "allopathic profession," or anything else which separates MDs and DOs. They both practice medicine, yes, but there is in this country two systems of medicine, and therefore, two professions. The AOA seems to say the same thing, so where in hell did that come from?

I'm being bombarded from all sides with all kinds of messages saying that my posts reveal my subconscious thoughts (decidedly negative) regarding the osteopathic profession.

You've known me practically since my junior year of college (just two years ago), I think, and have read probably all of my posts on m.e.m. and StudentDoctor. You have corrected my posts with more updated information, and I appreciate that.

Can you tell me if any of my more inflammatory posts on this board meet with your disapproval?

The bias on this board is decidedly osteopathic. Why else would my posts offend anyone? It didn't offend ANYONE on the more neutral m.e.m.


Tim of New York City.

 

[turtleboard]

Reed,

It's not about who's right or who's wrong.

This whole tirade is about comments like the ones you've made in your post, "You are biased and condesending, whether you see it or not."

Now why is that? Is it because my posts, which are based on researched fact, don't agree with your opinion?

Tell me exactly why I'm bised and condescending. I'd really love to know, once and for all, why you and DO/PhD think that way about me.

I apologize to the rest of the community for dragging this out for so long.


Tim of New York City.

 

[UHS2002]

Tim,

I am ready to jump into this one!

I don't find your posts condescending towards DOs at all. The fact that some people thought you are attending NYCOM should be enough to show that you have no anti-osteopathic hidden agenda

All of us have gotten into an argument or another with different people on this board. That we don't always agree doesn't mean we should not respect one another.

I have jumped on some people who have posted some decisively disparaging comments towards DOs and osteopathic education. Not because I am a big pro-DO proponent but because I hate asinine remarks. I certainly don't hold MDs and DOs at different levels. My oldest brother is an MD and so are some close friends. I chose to go the DO route not because I thought it was "superior" in any way to the MD route, but because I felt more comfortable in the osteopathic school environment (such as, I didn't want to be the one out of two people in a class of 100 to be older or to have kids...), and I have no regrets.To make a long story short, I don't feel pro-osteopathy, I just feel anti-stupidity and I know many of the other DO students feel the same.

So, don't feel like this board is just a big "pro-DO, nothing-else-is-as-good" bunch because it is then that you would begin to do an injustice to those who have had so many exchange of ideas with you. I have to admit that there are some people out there who take this attitude. So what? There are some MDs and allopathic students out there that think that DOs are some kind of glorified chiropractors. Big news, there are ignorant people everywhere, even in the medical profession.

The differences between osteopathic and allopathic medicine today, to me, are simply political ones. I think we, as the future MDs and DOs, should be the ones to eliminate this artificial separation once and for all. It is only when we keep the dialogue going that we find out that there is more than unites us than what makes us different.

 

[togo]

Why are you apologizing? If you truly need to apologize for dragging it out then drop the thread and move on. If this is a viable thread then proceed without apology. Was this a goodbye post, a mere reaction, fodder for response or what? I'm a bit confused.

 

[Ponyboy]

reed0104,
Are you even in medical school? I find it incredulous that someone who is in medical school could hold such naive and ignorant world views (not to mention such poor reading comprehension) and would still insist that turtleboard (who I have hardly ever seen to be incorrect) is biased and condescending. If anything, turtleboard is probably one of the strongest voices for osteopathic medicine on this board.

 

[turtleboard]

Togo:

My post was not a goodbye post.

Actually when I wrote at the end, "It's time to retire," everyone thought it was a goodbye post. I meant it was time to sleep.

It was a reaction to all the stuff that I've been getting with regard to my posts, not one of which I ever thought was offensive to the osteopathic profession.

Reed:

I am plenty wrong, not just quite a bit. I am wrong practically a ton of times in a day. When I am wrong, I admit it. I don't go down swinging, I admit it, correct it, and move on.

When some posts of mine have information that is wrong, people will correct me and I appreciate it. Dave Russo is always correcting my posts with more updated information. That's good stuff for everyone involved.

But when certain people on this forum feel that my posts are wrong, they seek not to correct it with factual information, but proceed with name-calling, bashing, and other things that are non-constructive.


Tim of New York City.

 

[Deb]

I'm really getting tired of these types of posts. I realize most of
you are either pre-med, or 1st year students and therefore still a little
insecure (ever notice that upper classmen and residents never respond to
these types of threads), but pleeeease...enough already! You guys take
things sooooooo seriously (except for UHS2002...how ya doin P.). I think
it's time for a reality check so I'm going to state the obvious and offend
everyone...GROW UP AND GET OVER IT!!!

Whether you choose DO or MD, you'll all be well respected physicians. It's
high time you lose your egos and get with the program. We're here to help
each other...not fight.

Just call me "Mom"
Deb MS-3

 

[dcdo]

Some diazepam, anyone?

 

[turtleboard]

Deb,

This isn't about MD vs. DO.

This is about being able to give a balanced picture to the premeds who frequent this board. What good does it do when we have this vehicle of information on osteopathic medicine, when it's constantly being censored by a select few?

You guys in third year annoy me.

I'm not a baby! I'm just a first year!

Tim of New York City.

 

[Paul's Boutique]

Well, if you're a baby, then I'm an embryo, 'cause I'm not even there yet!

Tim, you've made some very good posts over the whole site. I think Deb/Mom's point is well taken, too: the "preemies" do tend to sweat a lot and stress out... all part of the game, I guess...

 

[Joe]

Tim
You say you have a thick skin, but it seems like the remarks do bother you. First, I don't have any feeling toward you. I'm just stating my observation.
I think some people were not too satisfied about some of your comments because you're an allopathic student making comments about osteopathic profession. While some were good comments, some were not. It's one thing for an osteopathic student to make a negative comment about osteopathic profession, but sounds condescending coming from someone outside the profession, no matter how knowledgeable you are since you will never have a first hand experience like an osteopathic student would.
Everyone's entitled to his/her opinion, and it seems like you're trying little too hard to defend yours. By the way, I don't believe in MD is better or DO is better nonsense either.

[This message has been edited by Joe (edited 01-25-2000).]

 

[turtleboard]

Joe,

Sure I've got thick skin. Why, none of this has stopped me from posting. The comments labelling me unfairly do bother me, and if your definition of not having thick skin is being a punching bag, then I can't agree.

As for the viewpoint of my being an "outsider" to the profession making negative comments, I guess that's completely possible. I did take a course in sociology in college, and it did mention what happens when outsiders say something about a group, but I don't think that's the case here.

From the interaction I've had with many of the people of this board, I'm among students who chose their respective professions, not the other way around.


Tim of New York City.

 

[Ranger]

Hi! I accidently stumbled this site and your conversation and I imagine that some of your past discussions would be very informative to a premed like my self. Would you please refer me to some of your more classical debates which you think might be helpful to me?
Thanks!
-RHC-

p.s. I'm visiting TCOM tomorrow, any advice?

 

[reed0104]

Turtlebrain...I don't think you get it. Your last sentence in your post has no point other than to look down your nose at others. That's what people have a problem with, not your wonderful "factoids"

In pysch, your remarks would be characterized as "Grandiose" That isn't a misread or misunderstanding of your post.

Get over yourself,

Bryan

 

[turtleboard]

Bryan,

Are we still on this?

If that's your interpretation, that's cool. I guess my comment wasn't a very fair one, but I have read extensively on osteopathic medicine. Practically any book out there, even "The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in the Mountains," (NOT Gevitz's book) I've had a chance to go through. I haven't read the older works, however, like Still's autobio. I don't plan on reading it either.

Tim of New York City.

 

[Joe]

Look Tim
I don't think you are getting the point.
No matter how much you think you know, you're not an expert on the subject of osteopatic medicine. I think you are MSI, and believe me, you still have a lot to learn about medicine in general, regardless of what you write in your posts. So cool off with your ego. And finally, why do you always have to say the last word? (I don't need an answer)

 

[reed0104]

Thank you Joe, excellent input.

Bryan

 

[turtleboard]

Joe, Reed,

I'm neither claimed to be an expert on DO medicine nor do I have to have the last word on everything.

Tim of New York City.

 

[togo]

I think you do Tim.

[This message has been edited by togo (edited 01-27-2000).]

 

[turtleboard]

Not you too... No I don't.


Tim of New York City.

 

[adismo]

Hey turtleboard,

Appreciate the researched facts dude, but you as a medical first year should know that delivering news isnt always done point blank. An example:
"Mr. Jones, you've been diagnosed with melanoma and have about six months to live. It's researched fact Mr. Jones, whether you like it or not, youre going to die. I'm simply telling you the truth."
Okay, so the people your replying to on this forum aren't about to die from cancer. In fact the majority will become good doctors, DO or whatever. It's just that your knowledge of these 'facts' about medschool admissions coupled with your massive amounts of time devoted to this forum (after youve studied for micro and gross etc) leave me wondering about what you have to prove to these people and to me.
Hear my heart man, keep up with the information and all, but be cool about it okay. I wish you success in medical school and in your medical practice.

 

[togo]

I'm sorry Tim. I couldn't resist saying that and then seeing if you would write in with the last word.

 

[reed0104]

Everybody I know is an expert on something. That doesn't give them the right to be an ass about it.

 

[turtleboard]

I was being an ass about it? Sorry.

Tim of New York City.
(the last word on ANYTHING)