Hey it's Jet. I need some advice.

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jetproppilot

jetproppilot

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I've reached a pinnacle.

To be honest, I reached it

long ago.

We're all doctors or aspiring doctors here.

In today's society, yeah it's been attenuated, along with AIRLINE PILOTS who were the ROKKSTARRS of Yester Year, being a doctor or an Airline Pilot (love you Pop)

MEANS SOMETHING.

BIG.

You go thru pre med, med school, all the ludicrous trials and tribulations of residency where you're a doctor, yeah, but not really,

you survive residency, get plunged into private practice, make a good living,

GREAT.

I couldn't be happier with my life with one exception, and we'll get to that, since it is pivotal. Hence the post.

My life is, well, blessed.

I work at a physician owned boutique hospital.

At 46 years old, my health is equivalent to someone in their twenties, no doubt since I'm a GYM RAT. Today, shoulder workout was epic... 100 lb dumbbells for reps on the last set..

I'm a single father happily engaged in my children's lives fifty fifty..

In a serious relationship...

What's lacking in Jet's life?

SPIRITUALITY.

Yep.

Lost it.

Despite the miracles I've seen in my line of work.

I'll tell you what I know:

There IS some Higher Power Dude out there.

I've seen Him.

In my work.

I'm currently at a loss of where to go with this.

I was brought up catholic...schooling, rearing, etc

I kinda like the ritualistic part of Catholicism...and yet the

PRIESTS AND THEIR DOWNFALL WITH SEXUAL ABUSE...the HYPOCRISY...the stuff about birth control...same sex marriage....uhhhh...hey Mr Catholic PRIEST,

EVER THOUGHT ABOUT KEEPING YOUR JUDGEMENT OUT OF PEOPLE'S BEDROOMS????

makes me angry towards my faith.

I just caught Joel Osteen on TV...man...that dude has a message, huh?

Then I think yeah Jet, Joel Osteen has a message but he's a TV EVANGELIST...does he have ulterior motives???

I dunno, dudes.

I do believe spirituality helps one become whole,

whatever that means.

I know I believe in a Higher Power.

I know spirituality leads to something better.

Just at a crossroads.

My Jewish homies in my mind seem to have it all figured out...yeah, Jesus existed, he was a good guy, a prophet maybe, but...the Son of God?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The story is hard for me to digest too, Jewish dudes. But that's what I was taught.

SO I STRUGGLE.

I'd love to hear from my internet Attendings, Residents, Med Students, and Pre Meds out there on this subject.

Jet is struggling on the

SPIRITUAL LEVEL.

Chime in with your words/opinions.

I need to hear.

THANKS IN ADVANCE.
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Good luck in your search. Traditional Judiasm does not recognize Jesus as a prophet or anyone of significance. (in some circles he is/was in fact defamed) Hence the split with Christianity.
 
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." - C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity


Mere Christianity is a great place to start...it is my favorite book in general and will floor you, if you read it with an open heart/mind. Few will ever pick it up but for those that do and wrestle with it, they're never the same.
 
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Jet, I'll post more to your point after work. FWIW, if you really delve into any of the 3 monotheistic religions they are all just as steeped in some of the "hard to believe" stuff you suggest sort of turns you off.

Just type in "Kosher slaughter" into youtube. Denmark has banned this practice on the grounds that it's inhumane, in modern times and with modern methods of killing an animal for food processing. You'll see how a religious belief has persisted despite obviously cruel treatment of animals. All because of something written in a holy book.

So, it's not just Christianity, and it's writings, which might go over the top in some people's minds.
 
Good luck with your search for happiness but people who hear voices are now and have always been insane. I'm not saying that there is definately not a higher power or whatever, just that there's no reason to believe anyone else knows more about it than you do. It's tough to balance a history of childhood indoctrination with common sense to find 'spiritual' peace, but I hope you do.
 
I was raised Muslim, but like all other Abrahamic faiths, I can see many contradictions and absurdities in my religion. I don't believe God has any religious affiliation (if he does exist, sometimes I doubt his existence). I do believe being spiritual does give you some sense of completeness, but I don't think that spirituality requires a belief in God. Buddhists don't believe in God, but the practicing ones are very spiritually fulfilled.
 
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muhali3 said:
I was raised Muslim, but like all other Abrahamic faiths, I can see many contradictions and absurdities in my religion. I don't believe God has any religious affiliation (if he does exist, sometimes I doubt his existence). I do believe being spiritual does give you some sense of completeness, but I don't think that spirituality requires a belief in God. Buddhists don't believe in God, but the practicing ones are very spiritually fulfilled.
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
cfdavid said:
Jet, I'll post more to your point after work. FWIW, if you really delve into any of the 3 monotheistic religions they are all just as steeped in some of the "hard to believe" stuff you suggest sort of turns you off.

Just type in "Kosher slaughter" into youtube. Denmark has banned this practice on the grounds that it's inhumane, in modern times and with modern methods of killing an animal for food processing. You'll see how a religious belief has persisted despite obviously cruel treatment of animals. All because of something written in a holy book.

So, it's not just Christianity, and it's writings, which might go over the top in some people's minds.
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Couldn't help yourself could you?
 
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha
 
dr doze said:
Couldn't help yourself could you?
Click to expand...

I'm simply giving an example of a faith-based practice which is known to be more painful and brutal to animals than what is considered the modern standard of care.

It is a fact that most Scandinavian countries have outlawed Kosher slaughter as being inhumane.

New Zealand has done so too.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=176872

New Zealand's new animal welfare code, which took effect Friday, mandates that all animals for commercial consumption be stunned prior to slaughter to ensure they are treated "humanely and in accordance with good practice and scientific knowledge."

Moslem's are unaffected by the regulations as they are allowed to stun animals before slaughtering them.

Now, doze, once again, you tell me who the extremist is. To me, to perpetuate a practice, STRICTLY because of some religious text written 2000 years ago, and which is WIDELY established as being cruel and inhumane, that is extreme. Sorry you seem to disagree.

All in the name of religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZn...ch_query=kosher+slaughter&aq=f&has_verified=1

The above is "Kosher". Most people don't know what the hell Kosher even means. Most people think "Kosher" means "on the level" or "right". Well, you can do your own research.

****If anyone is insulted that I'm insulted by such a practice, then so be it. My point is that all major religions have practices steeped in superstition and traditions which modern knowledge and science has long dispelled. This is not an attack on any one faith, but when practices such as this continue when alternative methods of killing an animal are WELL ESTABLISHED, then to me that's an example of ingnorance and a problem with organized religion.
 
jetproppilot said:
Jet is struggling on the

SPIRITUAL LEVEL.

Chime in with your words/opinions.

I need to hear.

THANKS IN ADVANCE.
[/B]
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While a child I would drive my parents nuts with these questions, over and over:

-- where did I come from? (I already knew about the birds and bees).
-- how did I get here?
-- why am I here?
-- where am I going?

The following Christmas a book similar to this appeared in my stocking: http://www.amazon.com/Religions-World-Illustrated-Traditions-Festivals/dp/081603723X

I was also blessed with the opportunity to go to an Episcopal grammar school, a Church of Christ junior high school, a Catholic high school, and an essentially Jewish undergrad (Tulane) where one of my English professors was addicted to the philosophy of Jean-Paul Sartre. All that, while being raised a Methodist. My religious education was very eclectic.

While an undergrad in the 1970s I took a senior elective on the psychology of death and dying. This was right after Moody's and Kubler-Ross' books had just hit the bookstores.

Get a book by Moody: http://www.lifeafterlife.com/

Might also want to read On Death and Dying by Kubler-Ross.

All of the above led me to my adult beliefs. (apologies if these beliefs accidentally step on anyone's toes). With the exception of Christianity the world's religions espouse how to act in the present-day, but don't really address the questions of "why?", or more succinctly, "where am I going?"

Christianity teaches where we're going, and more importantly, how to get there. True, the Prostestant and Catholic religions have wide differences, but do agree on the most central tenet: simple faith in Jesus as one's personal savior assures salvation and eternal life.

Having made that decision, I now try to put into daily practice the principles stated and demonstrated by Jesus, ie, be a daily servant. Worldly fame, riches, adulation mean nothing to me. I get great satisfaction just by trying to use my particular talents in the best possible manner to serve others in need. I don't worry about yesterday, nor about tomorrow. I know where my soul is going after my brief time in this physical realm is over. That approach to daily adult life also helps bring closure to those four questions I would consistently aggravate my parents with as a child, for the simple answer to each of those questions is "God."

I find the Methodist church well-suited for my continuing spiritual journey and growth. It's an offshoot of the Anglican church (the Church of England, aka The Episcopal Church) which itself is an offshoot of the Catholic church. I've also attended church with Baptist friends, but find the Methodist church more to my liking. Going to church on a regular basis keeps me grounded, and helps get me through periods when man's inhumanity to man defeats me.

I've never had an atomic flash-bang religious experience. More like several decades of adult living experience, combined with my life-long existential questions, have led me to my present position of spiritual contentedness. In my head I've reduced the human condition to an on-going conflict: give, or get. Spiritual, or carnal. My ultimate barometer for living is to keep my eyes (and thought, word, and deed) on the ultimate prize: hearing a voice in my future at the Pearly Gates say directly to me "well done, my good and faithful servant." (Matthew 25:21).

Life here is a continual growing and testing process for your spirit/soul. Life here isn't forever. Your soul is.
 
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jetproppilot said:
Lost it.

Despite the miracles I've seen in my line of work.

I'll tell you what I know:

There IS some Higher Power Dude out there.
Click to expand...

Just curious, has anything changed recently that spurred this renewed sense of spirituality/religion in you?

Also, wondering if you can provide an example of the most unbelievable miracle you've witnessed in your practice over your career? Does a particular case stand out?

Good luck in your quest. Let us know if you reach an epiphany and what that might be.
 
cfdavid said:
I'm simply giving an example of a faith-based practice which is known to be more painful and brutal to animals than what is considered the modern standard of care.

It is a fact that most Scandinavian countries have outlawed Kosher slaughter as being inhumane.

New Zealand has done so too.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=176872

New Zealand's new animal welfare code, which took effect Friday, mandates that all animals for commercial consumption be stunned prior to slaughter to ensure they are treated “humanely and in accordance with good practice and scientific knowledge.”

Moslem's are unaffected by the regulations as they are allowed to stun animals before slaughtering them.

Now, doze, once again, you tell me who the extremist is. To me, to perpetuate a practice, STRICTLY because of some religious text written 2000 years ago, and which is WIDELY established as being cruel and inhumane, that is extreme. Sorry you seem to disagree.

All in the name of religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZn...ch_query=kosher+slaughter&aq=f&has_verified=1

The above is "Kosher". Most people don't know what the hell Kosher even means. Most people think "Kosher" means "on the level" or "right". Well, you can do your own research.

****If anyone is insulted that I'm insulted by such a practice, then so be it. My point is that all major religions have practices steeped in superstition and traditions which modern knowledge and science has long dispelled. This is not an attack on any one faith, but when practices such as this continue when alternative methods of killing an animal are WELL ESTABLISHED, then to me that's an example of ingnorance and a problem with organized religion.
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I am not defending the practice. For the record I don't keep kosher. What I am pointing out is that you have frequently introduced Jews or Jewish behavior or Israel into threads, each time with unflattering comments.
 
The macro (relativity) and micro levels (quantum theory) of science contradict each other. This is the whole point of "GUT" or grand unifying theory to unite laws.

Otherwise, without one set of equations we are left with multiple equations to describe the SAME universe.

The best we have is membrane theory / string theory.

How crazy is that ? Multiverses? Infinite dimensions created every time you make a decision (Check out the PBS shows on YouTube.

Yes, I will keep the faith brotha JPP. Sometimes you just know. Not everything has to be proven with rat brains.
 
For a simple short read to help you find a little spirituality in life, I suggest you read The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff.
 
I grew up firmly grounded in Christian faith... which I still strongly believe in. During intern year in the trenches I found my spiritual views could be easily summed up by a popular country song at the time whose chorus was "God is Great, Beer is Good, and People are Crazy".

Having gone to church my entire life,I still have frequent issues with the christian culture. Which, at its worst, can be filled with coo coo straight laced Ned Flander types, hypocrites, and judgmental extremist. I really think these types of "Christians" really do a good job of turning people off to religion. At its best, however, a christian community is a body of humble believers who understand that there is more to life, and come together to worship God and encourage and serve each other and the community around them... It really is unfortunate that we (humans) tend to ruin such a good thing by throwing our own agendas, ambitions, and politics into the mix. Although this could be chalked up to our own sin nature, but that a whole nother bag of worms.

Ultimately however, I firmly believe that spirituality is very personal at its core. A personal believe if God, which develops into a meaningful relationship with the almighty yet loving Creator can be a powerful and humbling force in your life. I was always a fan of the mantra that "Its a relationship, not a religion". Although I know that even sounds pretty wacko from the outside looking in.

One of my favorite books which is truly a good read is Donald Miller - Blue Like Jazz. Not beat you over the head spiritual, very entertaining, and thought provoking. John Eldredge is not a bad place to start either.

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Like-Jaz...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308705597&sr=1-1
 
Quirk11 said:
The macro (relativity) and micro levels (quantum theory) of science contradict each other. This is the whole point of "GUT" or grand unifying theory to unite laws.

Otherwise, without one set of equations we are left with multiple equations to describe the SAME universe.

The best we have is membrane theory / string theory.

How crazy is that ? Multiverses? Infinite dimensions created every time you make a decision (Check out the PBS shows on YouTube.

Yes, I will keep the faith brotha JPP. Sometimes you just know. Not everything has to be proven with rat brains.
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:laugh: People with beliefs that are completely incompatible with yours 'just know' too. Everyone religious thinks they 'just know' because if there was convincing evidence for any of it, there would only be one religion.

The only people who are really honest with themselves are the agnostics; at least they admit that they really don't know.

The strongest argument for belief is that their is no downside (other than war, bigoty, wasted time, etc.) if it makes you feel happy. Being happy based on a delusion is no less happy than believing in things that are true. In the end, we're probably just worm food, but if something makes you happy and doesn't hurt anyone else, then go for it if that suits your personality. Some of us are limited by the application of reason, but not everyone is bound by it.
 
GypsySongman said:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/episodes/s07e12-all-about-mormons
Click to expand...

Glad you brought this up because this is my favorite part of the whole episode


KYLE
Oh, hey Stan. Where's your best buddy,
Gary?

STAN
I'm not hanging around that kid anymore.


CARTMAN
Oh no! You guys broke up?

STAN
You guys were right, okay? The new kid's
a douche. Now I just gotta find a way
to keep him away from me.

GARY
Hey Stan.

STAN
Oh brother.

CARTMAN
Uh oh, the jilted lover returns.

GARY
Listen, I just wanted to let you know
you don't have to worry about me tryin'
to be your friend anymore.

STAN
I don't?

GARY
Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in
crazy stories that make absolutely no
sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make
it all up, but I have a great life.
and a great family, and I have the Book
of Mormon to thank for that. The truth
is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made
it all up, because what the church teaches
now is loving your family, being nice
and helping people. And even though
people in this town might think that's
stupid, I still choose to believe in
it. All I ever did was try to be your
friend, Stan, but you're so high and
mighty you couldn't look past my religion
and just be my friend back. You've got
a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck
my balls.

CARTMAN
Damn, that kid is cool, huh?

THE END
 
Hey bro, jpp,
interesting post, especially in light of the recent spiritual awakening UTSouthwestern. I was never a person who believed in God, actually was very anti-God-religion, etc, thought anyone who believed in God to be a complete fool who was at best wasting time and at worst violent. One day I had an awakening of sorts. I realized that I wanted to be a more accepting person, a more helpful person, a more loving person. I knew that secularism for all its greatness, is not a very loving philosophy, as much as it tries to masquerade itself, secularism for all its trappings is a dead end. Its vision is materialistic, scientific, very lonely, very squelching. So I went on my own pilgrimage, learning about Buddihism, Judaism, Christianity. I decided to listen to the one who taught love, whose main message was love. And that was Christ. His first commandment is this to Love your neighbor and to Love God.
After living as a Christian for the past 15 years, I am beginning to feel as if I may go onto another level of closeness with Jesus and maybe converting to become a Latter Day Saint. I have numerous LDS friends and they live and breath Christ and they are the best friends I have ever encountered. They live wholesome lives and are so beyond this existence and this world, it makes me jealous. Well thats all I got, good luck, and BTW Joel Osteen does in fact rock. I love listening to that dude, he should man a suicide hotline phone, that guy is like Prozac. Hey again good luck, God is with you, are you with Him? lol....
 
I don't have the fame of these guys but I've met a lot of goals that I thought would satisfy and came up with the same emptiness. These did not learn what 'God coming into their life' would look/feel like from church...they saw their need and asked for help and the help that came was what it was. The result is God's working in their lives--which if real would result in similar stories amongst them. These videos resonate my own experience with Jesus Christ--it's amazing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnpErcb8g84&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeruTrdF1Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXOrKT7SUoY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_IYrBewRdo&feature=related
 
GypsySongman said:
:laugh: People with beliefs that are completely incompatible with yours 'just know' too. Everyone religious thinks they 'just know' because if there was convincing evidence for any of it, there would only be one religion.

The only people who are really honest with themselves are the agnostics; at least they admit that they really don't know.

The strongest argument for belief is that their is no downside (other than war, bigoty, wasted time, etc.) if it makes you feel happy. Being happy based on a delusion is no less happy than believing in things that are true. In the end, we're probably just worm food, but if something makes you happy and doesn't hurt anyone else, then go for it if that suits your personality. Some of us are limited by the application of reason, but not everyone is bound by it.
Click to expand...

Who decides what "reason" is ? Is it that which can be proved in a test tube. That is someone's "faith" as well - that is to say I only believe in things that can be tested.

Membrane theory is science. In fact, its probably the BEST we have. Otherwise, you are believing Einstein and ignoring quantum theory. Who is to say. Unifying physics is a mess - no one knows. It takes as much faith to accept science in today's state as religion in my opinion.

I am not worm food. I can't prove that, but why would I have to? Life isn't a rat brain study.
 
PistolPete said:
Just curious, has anything changed recently that spurred this renewed sense of spirituality/religion in you?

Also, wondering if you can provide an example of the most unbelievable miracle you've witnessed in your practice over your career? Does a particular case stand out?

Good luck in your quest. Let us know if you reach an epiphany and what that might be.
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Short on time so answers will be short...hope to elaborate soon.

Nothing has changed. Have hoped for higher spirituality for a long time now.

I posted one of my most memorable cases years ago about an emergency CABG I did on a dude in his forties who came into the ER with an acute MI, went to cath lab, coded, came to the OR with CPR in progress..he was a sheriff of a local Louisiana small town...he's still alive...maybe you can search for my post...if you find it bump it...if not Ill elaborate soon.

Btw thanx all for your inspirational responses. I'm very appreciative. :thumbup::thumbup:
 
I'm usually one of those who finds their own path, as it were, trying to avoid extremism as much as possible. A passage from a favorite book of mine:

"There is a particularly unattractive and discouragingly common affliction called tunnel vision, which, for all the misery it causes, ought to be on the top job list at the World Health Organization. Tunnel vision is a disease in which perception is restricted by ignorance and distorted by vested interest. Tunnel vision is caused by an optic fungus that multiplies when the brain is less energetic than the ego. It is complicated by exposure to politics. When a good idea is run through the filters and compressors of ordinary tunnel vision, it not only comes out reduced in scale and value but in its new dogmatic configuration produces effects the opposite of those for which it originally was intended.

That is how the loving ideas of Jesus Christ became the sinister cliches of Christianity. That is why virtually every revolution in history has failed: the oppressed as soon as they seize power, turn into the oppressors, resorting to totalitarian tactics to "protect the revolution." That is why minorities seeking the abolition of prejudice become militant, minorities seeking equality become self-rightous, and minorities seeking liberation become hostile (a tight a**hole being the first symptom of self-repression.)

The forgoing sermonette was brought to you by the Essential Insanities Dept. at Outlaw College. It was delivered in the hope that it might explain how the Care Fest, with so many masters on the roster, so many juicy ideas on the grill, went haywire."

--Tom Robbins, Still Life with Woodpecker, Chapter 36
 
Quirk11 said:
Who decides what "reason" is ? Is it that which can be proved in a test tube. That is someone's "faith" as well - that is to say I only believe in things that can be tested.

Membrane theory is science. In fact, its probably the BEST we have. Otherwise, you are believing Einstein and ignoring quantum theory. Who is to say. Unifying physics is a mess - no one knows. It takes as much faith to accept science in today's state as religion in my opinion.

I am not worm food. I can't prove that, but why would I have to? Life isn't a rat brain study.
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Faith is another word for irrational belief.
The definition of reason isn't a secret.
Oxford- reason- the ability of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements logically.
Believe what you want, but don't pretend that it is reasonable or rational.
and don't pretend that incomplete scientific understanding is in any way related to religion which is just made up out of thin air.
 
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GypsySongman said:
Faith is another word for irrational belief.
The definition of reason isn't a secret.
Oxford- reason- the ability of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements logically.
Believe what you want, but don't pretend that it is reasonable or rational.
and don't pretend that incomplete scientific understanding is in any way related to religion which is just made up out of thin air.
Click to expand...

To somewhat expand on that, why is faith at all a virtue, or at least considered a good thing? (Rhetorical questions, btw...)
 
The people of faith that I have known are strengthened and comforted by their faith. I envy their strength and serenity. It is one thing to observe and to practice. Another to truly believe. Lots of people speak and behave well. Many observe and practice. Few believe. IMO, The ability to have faith or spirituality is an inborn trait.
 
I kinda' agree with the inborn trait thing. Some people can do it, others just can't. And if those who can simply derive peace of mind and serenity from it, more power to them. Unfortunately though, it often doesn't stop there. People act and make decisions based upon their beliefs (faith-based or otherwise), and when those actions begin to affect others, it can become problematic. No one ever suffered because they were too reasonable.
 
There's a good possibility we evolved into being predisposed to have "faith." It doesn't matter what you believe in, just believing can have survival benefits such as having optimism about our existence and forming common bonds and unity among us. But, while having faith may have survival benefits, that does not mean any of the religions have to be remotely true.

With time I have grown tolerant of people's religious views and have come to accept whatever religious stories they choose to believe in (just don't kill each other because you think only you have the right religion). And if the fear of God reforms a chronic criminal or keeps someone on the straight and narrow, I'm not about to try to dispel his belief.
 
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Narcotized said:
There's a good possibility we evolved into being predisposed to have "faith." It doesn't matter what you believe in, just believing can have survival benefits such as having optimism about our existence and forming common bonds and unity among us. But, while having faith may have survival benefits, that does not in the slightest way mean any of the religions have to be even remotely true.

With time I have grown tolerant of people's religious views and have come to accept whatever madeup fairy tale they choose to believe in (just don't kill each other because you think only you have the right religion). And if the fear of God reforms a chronic criminal or keeps someone on the straight and narrow, I'm not about to try to dispel his belief.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is how I see religion, as a compilation of made-up stories designed to promote social unity and ethical behavior. However, often times it can do the opposite.
 
Entgegen said:
I kinda' agree with the inborn trait thing. Some people can do it, others just can't. And if those who can simply derive peace of mind and serenity from it, more power to them. Unfortunately though, it often doesn't stop there. People act and make decisions based upon their beliefs (faith-based or otherwise), and when those actions begin to affect others, it can become problematic. No one ever suffered because they were too reasonable.
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Reason is to elucidate a cause from an effect. To subjectively (to say no one has suffered from reason) define reason makes it political and no longer what it truly is, which is analytical and non judgemental. To say no one has ever suffered from another person's "reasoning" or what is deemed to be reasonable by a society is simply untrue. Reason is there to obtain a goal...it's not limited by human emotion, not at all, and history proves that to us.
If I theorize that the world would benefit from having more intellectuals and less uneducated people, because intellectuals are able to solve many of the problems of the world and uneducated people are less mentally evolved and their genes should not be allowed to mix with educated people and cause de-evolution; this would be reasonable and many educated people would agree.
In fact this was considered reasonable and many educated did agree. This was the beginning of eugenics and nazism. It all sounds extremely reasonable. Europeans went to these New Worlds, saw how primitive these people were and considered themselves to be genetically superior to them. Why would a reasonable person try to interact with a person they consider to be like an ape or an ox or a horse? They would not, they would use them like tools and not like beings with souls, to them all very reasonable.

Here is an excerpt regarding social darwinism

As social Darwinism has many definitions, it is hard for some to be either for or against it; some of the definitions oppose the others. As The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics states
Part of the difficulty in establishing sensible and consistent usage is that commitment to the biology of natural selection and to 'survival of the fittest' entailed nothing uniform either for sociological method or for political doctrine. A 'social Darwinist' could just as well be a defender of laissez-faire as a defender of state socialism, just as much an imperialist as a domestic eugenist.
Therefore, Fascist and National Socialist ideology subscribed to a different form of social Darwinism than the laissez-faire version because they were not advocates for an individualist order of society, rather they advocated racial and national struggle where the state planned and controlled human breeding through science and Eugenics—a program that no proponent of laissez-faire could consistently endorse.[29] Darwinist Collectivism or Reform Darwinism, rather than the individualist form of Darwinism, are more accurate terms for these ideologies. [2]
Some pre-twentieth century doctrines subsequently described as social Darwinism appear to anticipate state imposed eugenics [2] and the race doctrines of Nazism. Critics have frequently linked evolution, Charles Darwin and social Darwinism with racialism, nationalism, imperialism and eugenics, contending that social Darwinism became one of the pillars of Fascism and Nazi ideology, and that the consequences of the application of policies of "survival of the fittest" by Nazi Germany eventually created a very strong backlash against the theory.[30][31]
As mentioned above, Social Darwinism has often been linked to nationalism and imperialism.[32] During the age of New Imperialism, the concepts of evolution justified the exploitation of "lesser breeds without the law" by "superior races."[32] To elitists, strong nations were composed of white people who were successful at expanding their empires, and as such, these strong nations would survive in the struggle for dominance.[32] With this attitude, Europeans, except for Christian missionaries, seldom adopted the customs and languages of local people under their empires.[32]
Nazi Germany's justification for its aggression was regularly promoted in Nazi propaganda films depicting scenes such as beetles fighting in a lab setting to demonstrate the principles of "survival of the fittest" as depicted in Alles Leben ist Kampf (English translation: All Life is Struggle). Hitler often refused to intervene in the promotion of officers and staff members, preferring instead to have them fight amongst themselves to force the "stronger" person to prevail - "strength" referring to those social forces void of virtue or principle.[33]
The argument that Nazi ideology was strongly influenced by social Darwinist ideas is often found in historical and social science literature.[34] For example, the Jewish philosopher and historian Hannah Arendt analysed the historical development from a politically indifferent scientific Darwinism via social Darwinist ethics to racist ideology.[3
 
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Narcotized said:
Beautifully summarizing the entire failure of liberal beliefs. They are built on "good intentions" and emotion, regardless of how illogical and unreasonable the means are to get there.

I didn't get much beyond the second or third line of your manifesto due to a lack of paragraphs.
Click to expand...

Hey I would agree with you, I love reason and its non subjectivity. I am a highly analytical person, I consider myself an analytical genius. :)
I think that is why I also believe in God. I have found that without balance, and God is a great balance, I become extremely cold. A belief in God opened my life up so much more than I ever felt possible. I am a more caring, sometimes, person, more so than I ever would have been. I tend to give a little more leeway to people, less judgemental. Hey look it aint easy but with God I have a compass, a standard way to act, in my eyes a way to be a more human human. Reasoning is great but reasoning on its own is not loving, I want love, and I feel I am more loving.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jet,

FAITH. There is a reason we call it that. It can't be proven. No hard science. Read the New Testament. Pray. Ask God to help you see the truth more clearly. Faith.

UT needs his faith more than ever these days. Call upon the Name of the Lord and He will answer you.

Your Spiritual side needs to begin working out with those weights as well.

Peace,
Blade
 
BLADEMDA said:
Jet,

FAITH. There is a reason we call it that. It can't be proven. No hard science. Read the New Testament. Pray. Ask God to help you see the truth more clearly. Faith.

UT needs his faith more than ever these days. Call upon the Name of the Lord and He will answer you.

Your Spiritual side needs to begin working out with those weights as well.

Peace,
Blade
Click to expand...

:thumbup:
 
dr doze said:
The people of faith that I have known are strengthened and comforted by their faith. I envy their strength and serenity. It is one thing to observe and to practice. Another to truly believe. Lots of people speak and behave well. Many observe and practice. Few believe. IMO, The ability to have faith or spirituality is an inborn trait.
Click to expand...

No not really. God is there for all. Just ask Him. Try it. He is your Helper and Counselor. HE is willing and able to Forgive you; He loves you unconditionally. Trust in Him. Pray. He can work miracles in your life.
 
MeaCulpa said:
Hey I would agree with you, I love reason and its non subjectivity. I am a highly analytical person, I consider myself an analytical genius. :)
I think that is why I also believe in God. I have found that without balance, and God is a great balance, I become extremely cold. A belief in God opened my life up so much more than I ever felt possible. I am a more caring, sometimes, person, more so than I ever would have been. I tend to give a little more leeway to people, less judgemental. Hey look it aint easy but with God I have a compass, a standard way to act, in my eyes a way to be a more human human. Reasoning is great but reasoning on its own is not loving, I want love, and I feel I am more loving.
Click to expand...

The impact on your life would be present with or without the existence of god because it's in your head. You could worship jesus or budda or manbearpig and the sense of peace and caring would be there.

Asking god to enter your life does not work unless you are one of the majority of people who can turn off their rational minds. It's like suspension of disbelief in an off the wall movie. Some people can get immersed in it. Others can't stop thinking about how fake it is.
 
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MeaCulpa said:
Reason is to elucidate a cause from an effect. To subjectively (to say no one has suffered from reason) define reason makes it political and no longer what it truly is, which is analytical and non judgemental. To say no one has ever suffered from another person's "reasoning" or what is deemed to be reasonable by a society is simply untrue. Reason is there to obtain a goal...it's not limited by human emotion, not at all, and history proves that to us.
If I theorize that the world would benefit from having more intellectuals and less uneducated people, because intellectuals are able to solve many of the problems of the world and uneducated people are less mentally evolved and their genes should not be allowed to mix with educated people and cause de-evolution; this would be reasonable and many educated people would agree.
In fact this was considered reasonable and many educated did agree. This was the beginning of eugenics and nazism. It all sounds extremely reasonable. Europeans went to these New Worlds, saw how primitive these people were and considered themselves to be genetically superior to them. Why would a reasonable person try to interact with a person they consider to be like an ape or an ox or a horse? They would not, they would use them like tools and not like beings with souls, to them all very reasonable.

Here is an excerpt regarding social darwinism

As social Darwinism has many definitions, it is hard for some to be either for or against it; some of the definitions oppose the others. As The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics states
Part of the difficulty in establishing sensible and consistent usage is that commitment to the biology of natural selection and to 'survival of the fittest' entailed nothing uniform either for sociological method or for political doctrine. A 'social Darwinist' could just as well be a defender of laissez-faire as a defender of state socialism, just as much an imperialist as a domestic eugenist.
Therefore, Fascist and National Socialist ideology subscribed to a different form of social Darwinism than the laissez-faire version because they were not advocates for an individualist order of society, rather they advocated racial and national struggle where the state planned and controlled human breeding through science and Eugenics—a program that no proponent of laissez-faire could consistently endorse.[29] Darwinist Collectivism or Reform Darwinism, rather than the individualist form of Darwinism, are more accurate terms for these ideologies. [2]
Some pre-twentieth century doctrines subsequently described as social Darwinism appear to anticipate state imposed eugenics [2] and the race doctrines of Nazism. Critics have frequently linked evolution, Charles Darwin and social Darwinism with racialism, nationalism, imperialism and eugenics, contending that social Darwinism became one of the pillars of Fascism and Nazi ideology, and that the consequences of the application of policies of "survival of the fittest" by Nazi Germany eventually created a very strong backlash against the theory.[30][31]
As mentioned above, Social Darwinism has often been linked to nationalism and imperialism.[32] During the age of New Imperialism, the concepts of evolution justified the exploitation of "lesser breeds without the law" by "superior races."[32] To elitists, strong nations were composed of white people who were successful at expanding their empires, and as such, these strong nations would survive in the struggle for dominance.[32] With this attitude, Europeans, except for Christian missionaries, seldom adopted the customs and languages of local people under their empires.[32]
Nazi Germany's justification for its aggression was regularly promoted in Nazi propaganda films depicting scenes such as beetles fighting in a lab setting to demonstrate the principles of "survival of the fittest" as depicted in Alles Leben ist Kampf (English translation: All Life is Struggle). Hitler often refused to intervene in the promotion of officers and staff members, preferring instead to have them fight amongst themselves to force the "stronger" person to prevail - "strength" referring to those social forces void of virtue or principle.[33]
The argument that Nazi ideology was strongly influenced by social Darwinist ideas is often found in historical and social science literature.[34] For example, the Jewish philosopher and historian Hannah Arendt analysed the historical development from a politically indifferent scientific Darwinism via social Darwinist ethics to racist ideology.[3
Click to expand...


Theorizing that the world would benefit from having more intellectuals and less uneducated people isn't a rational activity- it's based on a religion-like faith in your own superiority. Reason is what leads to your conclusion that social darwinism can have a negative impact on society. Nazi faith could have kept eugenics going forever if their faith hadn't been shattered with military defeat.
 
GypsySongman said:
The impact on your life would be present with or without the existence of god because it's in your head. You could worship jesus or budda or manbearpig and the sense of peace and caring would be there.

Asking god to enter your life does not work unless you are one of the majority of people who can turn off their rational minds. It's like suspension of disbelief in an off the wall movie. Some people can get immersed in it. Others can't stop thinking about how fake it is.
Click to expand...

You will find out just how real God is. Everyone eventually does.
 
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