Hey it's Jet. I need some advice.

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I guess I took the opposite approach to life Jet. I completed my spiritual quest before pursuing a medical career. l spent several years studying, fasting, praying. Went to cemetery seminary etc.

Ultimately, I listed out the things I truly believed and studied them one by one. After careful consideration of the possibilities and the likelihoods, I eliminated them one by one.

I found that every religion has its roots in power, the desire of a few to control the many. While you can tease out some positive things that occur in religious circles, the net outcome is IMHO very ugly.

Every religion teaches you to not live this current life to the fullest rather to be satisfied with your lot in life in the hopes of having a better life in the future. I would rather live this life to the fullest.

I do believe that the ability and the desire to suspend reason and disbelief is genetic. I am on the end of the spectrum where I was not able to suspend reason and disbelief no matter how hard I tried. When I was finally honest with myself, I had to admit that when I was a professing christian there was always an inner feeling of living a lie. I never believed, deep down, the things I was saying. Now it is excruciating to set foot in a church as I see people willingly blinding themselves to all the hypocrisy, judgementalism, and indoctrination around them.

Coming from my background the journey to atheism was extremely painful. Still is. What I wouldn't give to just be able to suspend disbelief, relinquish reality and join with my family and friends in worship. The area of the country that I love to live in is filled with people who would disassociate from me if they knew the truth of my non-belief. Yet I have to be true to myself if not them.

Ultimately, as Richard Dawkins says, we are all atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than most.


Not so much advice as just a recounting of my own journey. Good luck on yours. I hope you find what you are looking for.

- pod
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jennyboo said:
For medical knowledge, we read primary literature in peer-reviewed journals. Why should we get our knowledge of the supernatural and spiritual from: forums, televangelists, church groups, Catholic upbringing, CNN, the newspaper, your grandmother?

In matters of faith as well as in medicine, there are primary sources...
Click to expand...

Because these are the practitioners and the reality of their religions. Sure we can ascribe certain characteristics to various religions because we interpret their primary texts as supporting our argument, but that is merely our interpretation and the reality of these religions is how they are practiced.


Unfortunately, primary sources do not tell the whole story. Simply reading all the anesthesia journals does not give one the understanding to understand and perform even the simplest of general anesthetics. The primary, published knowledge is quite different from actual practice. The craft can only be learned through mentorship and observation of the actual behaviors of the practitioner in real-life. The primary literature gives us a glimpse, but can be interpreted, critiqued and applied in many ways. We have to examine how the religion is practiced, not how we interpret what their primary texts say.

and that is being generous when the reality is medical knowledge is a science based pursuit of demonstrable facts while religious practice and theory is, well a little different.

- pod
 
periopdoc said:
I guess I took the opposite approach to life Jet. I completed my spiritual quest before pursuing a medical career. l spent several years studying, fasting, praying. Went to cemetery seminary etc.

Ultimately, I listed out the things I truly believed and studied them one by one. After careful consideration of the possibilities and the likelihoods, I eliminated them one by one.

I found that every religion has its roots in power, the desire of a few to control the many. While you can tease out some positive things that occur in religious circles, the net outcome is IMHO very ugly.

Every religion teaches you to not live this current life to the fullest rather to be satisfied with your lot in life in the hopes of having a better life in the future. I would rather live this life to the fullest.

I do believe that the ability and the desire to suspend reason and disbelief is genetic. I am on the end of the spectrum where I was not able to suspend reason and disbelief no matter how hard I tried. When I was finally honest with myself, I had to admit that when I was a professing christian there was always an inner feeling of living a lie. I never believed, deep down, the things I was saying. Now it is excruciating to set foot in a church as I see people willingly blinding themselves to all the hypocrisy, judgementalism, and indoctrination around them.

Coming from my background the journey to atheism was extremely painful. Still is. What I wouldn't give to just be able to suspend disbelief, relinquish reality and join with my family and friends in worship. The area of the country that I love to live in is filled with people who would disassociate from me if they knew the truth of my non-belief. Yet I have to be true to myself if not them.

Ultimately, as Richard Dawkins says, we are all atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than most.


Not so much advice as just a recounting of my own journey. Good luck on yours. I hope you find what you are looking for.

- pod
Click to expand...

Wow.

Thanks for sharing man.

Know what I respect from a person the most, current day?

HONESTY.

Thanks again for sharing. I'm very appreciative.
 
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periopdoc said:
Unfortunately, primary sources do not tell the whole story.... The primary literature gives us a glimpse, but can be interpreted, critiqued and applied in many ways. We have to examine how the religion is practiced, not how we interpret what their primary texts say.
Click to expand...

Agreed that primary texts are not the whole story, but I think it is meaningless to study others' interpretations if you haven't read the primary text yourself. In academics, it's like reading literary criticism before reading the text it criticizes; and in medicine, it's like taking your understanding from the CNN article or the JAMA editorial before you've read the study.
 
Physics disagrees with itself. It has forever. That's the reason a bunch of brilliant people are searching for a grand unifying theory. Otherwise, we have disagreeing equations for the same universe. ..... Currently, membrane theory predicts so many crazy things (its probably the most popular theory of the universe now). In one version, everytime you make decision an infinite number of universes are created. Essentially, the explanations of the universe come down to mathematics. Then we try to put those mathematics into words. It ends up being crazy. How is heaven that hard to believe in ? .... Even if membrane theory is true, seems like heaven could exist in one universe ? Either way, we are all believing in something that at some point has a lot of fantastical assumptions (as do most theories in grand unifying physics). I guess you could ignore all those cool PBS shows, university professors, and physicists trying to unite the laws and say that we do know whats going on. When I look at the data and theories of the universe, to me its apparent we have no idea and never did. Sure, maybe we know a few facts but we don't have any real answers. Thats why my faith is strong.
periopdoc said:
I guess I took the opposite approach to life Jet. I completed my spiritual quest before pursuing a medical career. l spent several years studying, fasting, praying. Went to cemetery seminary etc.

Ultimately, I listed out the things I truly believed and studied them one by one. After careful consideration of the possibilities and the likelihoods, I eliminated them one by one.

I found that every religion has its roots in power, the desire of a few to control the many. While you can tease out some positive things that occur in religious circles, the net outcome is IMHO very ugly.

Every religion teaches you to not live this current life to the fullest rather to be satisfied with your lot in life in the hopes of having a better life in the future. I would rather live this life to the fullest.

I do believe that the ability and the desire to suspend reason and disbelief is genetic. I am on the end of the spectrum where I was not able to suspend reason and disbelief no matter how hard I tried. When I was finally honest with myself, I had to admit that when I was a professing christian there was always an inner feeling of living a lie. I never believed, deep down, the things I was saying. Now it is excruciating to set foot in a church as I see people willingly blinding themselves to all the hypocrisy, judgementalism, and indoctrination around them.

Coming from my background the journey to atheism was extremely painful. Still is. What I wouldn't give to just be able to suspend disbelief, relinquish reality and join with my family and friends in worship. The area of the country that I love to live in is filled with people who would disassociate from me if they knew the truth of my non-belief. Yet I have to be true to myself if not them.

Ultimately, as Richard Dawkins says, we are all atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than most.


Not so much advice as just a recounting of my own journey. Good luck on yours. I hope you find what you are looking for.

- pod
Click to expand...
 
periopdoc said:
I guess I took the opposite approach to life Jet. I completed my spiritual quest before pursuing a medical career. l spent several years studying, fasting, praying. Went to cemetery seminary etc.

Ultimately, I listed out the things I truly believed and studied them one by one. After careful consideration of the possibilities and the likelihoods, I eliminated them one by one.

I found that every religion has its roots in power, the desire of a few to control the many. While you can tease out some positive things that occur in religious circles, the net outcome is IMHO very ugly.

Every religion teaches you to not live this current life to the fullest rather to be satisfied with your lot in life in the hopes of having a better life in the future. I would rather live this life to the fullest.

I do believe that the ability and the desire to suspend reason and disbelief is genetic. I am on the end of the spectrum where I was not able to suspend reason and disbelief no matter how hard I tried. When I was finally honest with myself, I had to admit that when I was a professing christian there was always an inner feeling of living a lie. I never believed, deep down, the things I was saying. Now it is excruciating to set foot in a church as I see people willingly blinding themselves to all the hypocrisy, judgementalism, and indoctrination around them.

Coming from my background the journey to atheism was extremely painful. Still is. What I wouldn't give to just be able to suspend disbelief, relinquish reality and join with my family and friends in worship. The area of the country that I love to live in is filled with people who would disassociate from me if they knew the truth of my non-belief. Yet I have to be true to myself if not them.

Ultimately, as Richard Dawkins says, we are all atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than most.


Not so much advice as just a recounting of my own journey. Good luck on yours. I hope you find what you are looking for.

- pod
Click to expand...

No , no and another no...
I am an Orthodox Christian. Not the best one....but I am trying...
If you believe that all of us are atheists - you believe that all of us are animals. ( Although a lot of us right now are worst then them...).
Our faith is that we are here on the Earth in order to save our souls , in order to get closer to God. Otherwise why?????

Take a look :
http://www.inathos.gr/athos/en/
Website for this image

halkidiki.com

Size:1024 × 768Type:261KB JPGThis image may be subject to copyright.


mount-athos-monastery.jpg
 
2win said:
No , no and another no...
I am an Orthodox Christian. Not the best one....but I am trying...
If you believe that all of us are atheists - you believe that all of us are animals. ( Although a lot of us right now are worst then them...).
Our faith is that we are here on the Earth in order to save our souls , in order to get closer to God. Otherwise why?????

Take a look :
http://www.inathos.gr/athos/en/
Website for this image

halkidiki.com

Size:1024 × 768Type:261KB JPGThis image may be subject to copyright.


mount-athos-monastery.jpg
Click to expand...

I find it remarkable how the religiously inclined are so unaccepting of another's religious beliefs when said beliefs conflict with one's own.

Why are religious people all on individual

TEAMS?

If loyalty to one's chosen faith involves chastising another's faith, or another's lack of faith,

How is that considered

SPIRITUAL?
 
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Quirk11 said:
Physics disagrees with itself. It has forever. That's the reason a bunch of brilliant people are searching for a grand unifying theory. Otherwise, we have disagreeing equations for the same universe. ..... Currently, membrane theory predicts so many crazy things (its probably the most popular theory of the universe now). In one version, everytime you make decision an infinite number of universes are created. Essentially, the explanations of the universe come down to mathematics. Then we try to put those mathematics into words. It ends up being crazy. How is heaven that hard to believe in ? .... Even if membrane theory is true, seems like heaven could exist in one universe ? Either way, we are all believing in something that at some point has a lot of fantastical assumptions (as do most theories in grand unifying physics). I guess you could ignore all those cool PBS shows, university professors, and physicists trying to unite the laws and say that we do know whats going on. When I look at the data and theories of the universe, to me its apparent we have no idea and never did. Sure, maybe we know a few facts but we don't have any real answers. Thats why my faith is strong.
Click to expand...

Whether or not physics has a unifying theory or not has nothing to do with believing in religion. No one has faith in string theory, and if they did, that wouldn't make your religion any more true just because neither of you is absolutely correct. You may both be incorrect but at least the physicist wants to discover the truth, the religious person just wants to maintain faith in what they really don't, and can't, know to be true.

Religions are stories made up to comfort people in their fear of the unknown. Apart from stories that are unfounded and untestable, they also make claims about the observable world. One after another testable claim is proven false. Science marches on and religion retreats to the remaining unknowns, always claiming that whatever hasn't yet been proven false about religion is true (until proven otherwise).
 
Jet, there are contradictory claims and mutually exclusive tenets of the major religions. Christianity is unique in its basic tenets:
1) That Messiah - who Jesus Christ is
2) The Mechanism - God taking the form of man to become a perfect substitution for what we deserve, separation from God...other religions are based upon the premise that good works are a necessary means to achieving salvation...Christianity says, "Forget the earning thing, buddy...this is out of your budget"...accept God's gift to you through GRACE...the actions are by-products (or fruit of the Spirit) that follow as a result of salvation achieved by God. "It's by grace that you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourself, it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

I understand your yearning and hunger spiritually. God's created that desire for us...we desire something bigger than ourselves. It doesn't matter how big, how famous, how much money we have, how much power we gain...it's never enough to satisfy...it can distract us for the bulk of our lives, but it's never enough. God wants us to love Him and pursue Him...He wants us to spend eternity with Him. He loves us so much. I can only encourage you to keep seeking Him. Seriously. Hang out in Ecclesiastes. Read some NT like John and Romans.

If you want to evaluate Christianity versus other religions. Or even the premise of theism vs. atheism or other worldviews. Check out William Lane Craig...watch some of his debates online with some of the world's best philosophers and minds. Reasonable Faith dot org is amazing too.

Lastly, Jet, it's personal. I've done some pretty cool things doing well in med school, getting into residency. I had 250+ Steps, AOA, interviews at the best residencies in the country...I definitely don't say this to boast...it can be fun finding some achievement/goals. But something in me and in everyone else will earn for God more than any of this other stuff. My fiancee has shown me this too. She's done really well financially, but she doesn't even hold onto material things...she recognizes the futility and the vapor that is this life. She loves God with her whole heart. She may lose everything. God's not a prosperity God. She and I will love God like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (read Daniel 3)...we want to love Him even if it costs us our ultimately earthly possessions, our lives.

His ultimate goal for our lives is not maximizing our happiness...this is why we get frustrated with Him. We think it should be that. We hypothesize that if we were God, we would do X, Y, and Z differently...but God's ultimate goal for us is that we know Him maximally.

I know this may come across as preachy...but I don't care, guys. I want you to hear the message more than what it costs me including your opinions of me.

Keep chasing after Him. He loves you.
 
sebsvenmdc said:
Jet, there are contradictory claims and mutually exclusive tenets of the major religions. Christianity is unique in its basic tenets:
1) That Messiah - who Jesus Christ is
2) The Mechanism - God taking the form of man to become a perfect substitution for what we deserve, separation from God...other religions are based upon the premise that good works are a necessary means to achieving salvation...Christianity says, "Forget the earning thing, buddy...this is out of your budget"...accept God's gift to you through GRACE...the actions are by-products (or fruit of the Spirit) that follow as a result of salvation achieved by God. "It's by grace that you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourself, it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

I understand your yearning and hunger spiritually. God's created that desire for us...we desire something bigger than ourselves. It doesn't matter how big, how famous, how much money we have, how much power we gain...it's never enough to satisfy...it can distract us for the bulk of our lives, but it's never enough. God wants us to love Him and pursue Him...He wants us to spend eternity with Him. He loves us so much. I can only encourage you to keep seeking Him. Seriously. Hang out in Ecclesiastes. Read some NT like John and Romans.

If you want to evaluate Christianity versus other religions. Or even the premise of theism vs. atheism or other worldviews. Check out William Lane Craig...watch some of his debates online with some of the world's best philosophers and minds. Reasonable Faith dot org is amazing too.

Lastly, Jet, it's personal. I've done some pretty cool things doing well in med school, getting into residency. I had 250+ Steps, AOA, interviews at the best residencies in the country...I definitely don't say this to boast...it can be fun finding some achievement/goals. But something in me and in everyone else will earn for God more than any of this other stuff. My fiancee has shown me this too. She's done really well financially, but she doesn't even hold onto material things...she recognizes the futility and the vapor that is this life. She loves God with her whole heart. She may lose everything. God's not a prosperity God. She and I will love God like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (read Daniel 3)...we want to love Him even if it costs us our ultimately earthly possessions, our lives.

His ultimate goal for our lives is not maximizing our happiness...this is why we get frustrated with Him. We think it should be that. We hypothesize that if we were God, we would do X, Y, and Z differently...but God's ultimate goal for us is that we know Him maximally.

I know this may come across as preachy...but I don't care, guys. I want you to hear the message more than what it costs me including your opinions of me.

Keep chasing after Him. He loves you.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing man.

As you all know, I went to

The U.:love:

A sizable portion of my class was Jewish, hence I received a very needed education on the Jewish faith.

So here's one of my biggest conflicts....

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. A christian's entire faith is based on Jesus Christ.

The Jewish religion does NOT believe Jesus was the son of God.

Their faith is in GOD.

There is no Jesus in the Jewish religion.

There is NO middle ground here.

Christians=Jesus

Jewish=no Jesus.



I have scientifically trained thought processes because of my background, as all of you do as well.

Is there a Right and Wrong here? There has to be, right, since there's such a difference?

Christianity verses Judaism have very different beliefs.

Additionally, the catholic church says, when our Day of Reckoning comes,

If you're not catholic well guess what?


YOU'RE *******ED!!!!!,

If you don't accept Jesus as your savior, there is no eternal life.

I mean seriously,

How can that be?

If Jesus is such a Great Dude,

why would he throw all the Jews, buddhists, et al

AWAY WITH THE TRASH?
 
That was another one of my beefs.

Live the good life, respect others
 
jetproppilot said:
Thanks for sharing man.

As you all know, I went to

The U.:love:

A sizable portion of my class was Jewish, hence I received a very needed education on the Jewish faith.

So here's one of my biggest conflicts....

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. A christian's entire faith is based on Jesus Christ.

The Jewish religion does NOT believe Jesus was the son of God.

Their faith is in GOD.

There is no Jesus in the Jewish religion.

There is NO middle ground here.

Christians=Jesus

Jewish=no Jesus.



I have scientifically trained thought processes because of my background, as all of you do as well.

Is there a Right and Wrong here? There has to be, right, since there's such a difference?

Christianity verses Judaism have very different beliefs.

Additionally, the catholic church says, when our Day of Reckoning comes,

If you're not catholic well guess what?


YOU'RE *******ED!!!!!,

If you don't accept Jesus as your savior, there is no eternal life.

I mean seriously,

How can that be?

If Jesus is such a Great Dude,

why would he throw all the Jews, buddhists, et al

AWAY WITH THE TRASH?
Click to expand...

If God didn't accord an equal opportunity to accept Him, and the teachings of Jesus Christ to all his children, that would be unjust, as you have noted. It would be capricious and unfair to condemn some Amazonian tribesman who never heard of God, Jesus, or any teachings of christianity, simply by accident of birth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) teaches that everyone on earth, regardless of when, how long, or where they lived,or what church they may have been raised in, will have an opportunity to make an informed decision about whether or not to be obedient to the teachings of Jesus Christ. For some that opportunity may come while alive here on earth. For others, that may come after we die. In either case, everyone will be able to accept or reject the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ with full knowledge of the consequences. Ergo, regardless of time, place, circumstances of birth, life, etc, everyone can be judged on equal footing with one another, since everyone will eventually have access to the same information upon which to base a decision.

Re: Jesus v. No Jesus in christianity v. judaism. There are many dichotomous choices in religion. Either God exists or he doesn't. Either Jesus is the Messiah, or not. By definition, one choice is true and the other is not. The only way to navigate these options is to go to the source material. Ask God for guidance. Read the fundamental texts of the faiths that intrigue you. Read the Bible. Read the Koran, read anything that seems to have truth in it. Then ask God if it is true. IF it is, he will let you know. If not, keep looking.

Jet, since you asked for advice, the best advice that I can give you is to keep your mind as open to all options as possible. There are plenty of nay-sayers on this board, which is fine, they have the right to believe what they want. If you feel that a spiritual presence is lacking in your life, remember, it's your life. Others' lack of belief should have no bearing on what brings you peace in your life. Keep that scientifically enquiring mind open and eventually you will find satisfying answers to those questions.
 
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jetproppilot said:
Thanks for sharing man.

As you all know, I went to

The U.:love:

A sizable portion of my class was Jewish, hence I received a very needed education on the Jewish faith.

So here's one of my biggest conflicts....

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. A christian's entire faith is based on Jesus Christ.

The Jewish religion does NOT believe Jesus was the son of God.

Their faith is in GOD.

There is no Jesus in the Jewish religion.

There is NO middle ground here.

Christians=Jesus

Jewish=no Jesus.



I have scientifically trained thought processes because of my background, as all of you do as well.

Is there a Right and Wrong here? There has to be, right, since there's such a difference?

Christianity verses Judaism have very different beliefs.

Additionally, the catholic church says, when our Day of Reckoning comes,

If you're not catholic well guess what?


YOU'RE *******ED!!!!!,

If you don't accept Jesus as your savior, there is no eternal life.

I mean seriously,

How can that be?

If Jesus is such a Great Dude,

why would he throw all the Jews, buddhists, et al

AWAY WITH THE TRASH?
Click to expand...

"If Jesus is such a Great Dude,

why would he throw all the Jews, buddhists, et al

AWAY WITH THE TRASH?"

Here you are wrong. Jesus will not throw them away. Rather will throw away the Orthodox Christians who knew the truth but didn't follow it.
Everybody should try their best to find Him.
Here is a great Lev Tolstoy story :
"A Bishop was traveling by boat with other pilgrims. On the way he heard rumors that on an obscure little island along the way there were 3 hermits that had spent their entire lives trying to save their souls. The Bishop became intrigued and implored the captain to stop the ship so that he could visit them. The captain reluctantly agreed and dropped anchor near the island. The Bishop was then placed on a boat and with a group of oarsmen sent ashore. The 3 hermits were dressed raggedly with long white beards to their knees. In total humility they welcomed the Bishop making deep bows. After he blessed them he asked them what they were doing to save their souls and serve God. They replied that they had no idea how to serve God. They just served and supported each other. The Bishop realized that the poor hermits didn't even know how to pray, since all they did was to lift their arms up towards heaven and repeat: " Three are ye, three are we, have mercy upon us." The Bishop consider it his ecclesiastical duty to teach the illiterate hermits the Lord's Prayer. They, however, were poor learners and required a whole day of instructions. During sunset, as the boat left the island, all the passengers saw a sight in the distance that filled them with fright. The 3 hermits were running on water as if it were dry land. When they came by the side of the ship, they implored the Bishop to remind them of the Lord's Prayer because, poor fellows, they had already completely forgotten it. The Bishop crossed himself in awe and told the hermits to continue their own prayers, for they had no need for instructions. Then he bowed deeply before the old men and ask them to pray for him as they turned and ran back across the sea to their island. "And a light shone until daybreak on the spot where they were lost to sight."

 
Rather will throw away the Orthodox Christians who knew the truth but didn't follow it.
Click to expand...
Maybe they didn't hear the faith presented in as compelling a manner as another? Maybe they were sexually molested by their pastor/priest? Honestly, I don't think the reason really matters. I don't believe in any way that a previously orthodox Christian who eventually rejects that religion is doomed to hell (if there is such a place), if he/she goes on to live life with the compassion of mother Theresa
 
loveoforganic said:
Maybe they didn't hear the faith presented in as compelling a manner as another? Maybe they were sexually molested by their pastor/priest? Honestly, I don't think the reason really matters. I don't believe in any way that a previously orthodox Christian who eventually rejects that religion is doomed to hell (if there is such a place), if he/she goes on to live life with the compassion of mother Theresa
Click to expand...

The existence of hell is incompatible with the idea of a just god.
There is no crime that would justify placement in hell.
All crimes are finite, no matter how horrible. Eternity in hell is an infinite punishment for a finite crime, ie an unjust punishment.
Therefore, you either don't believe god is just, or you don't believe in hell. Take your pick.
 
GypsySongman said:
The existence of hell is incompatible with the idea of a just god.
There is no crime that would justify placement in hell.
All crimes are finite, no matter how horrible. Eternity in hell is an infinite punishment for a finite crime, ie an unjust punishment.
Therefore, you either don't believe god is just, or you don't believe in hell. Take your pick.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I don't have a firm position on this either way, but I can see the point you're making. An extreme hypothetical however - a person is born, and for whatever reason, he spends every waking second of his life actively working in some way against someone else. Broadly speaking, he just, quite literally, always does bad, both by cultural norms and in his own eyes. He recognizes his perceptions of right and wrong, and chooses wrong. I would have a hard time seeing at any point this person being granted eternal salvation as just. Is eternal damnation just though? Not sure. Interested in your thoughts though
 
2win said:
If you believe that all of us are atheists - you believe that all of us are animals. ( Although a lot of us right now are worst then them...).
Click to expand...

We are all atheists, I just happen to believe in one fewer god than most. As a professing christian, you are atheistic to the Greek, Roman and Druid gods etc.

We are all animals. Some of us behave in ways more amenable to societal progress "better" than other animals, and some less so "worse". If morality is a specific set of dictums established by a higher authority then why are moral definitions so different today from 200 years ago? 1500 years ago? I would accept an argument from a christian that the morals of 1970ish years ago are by all rights different, but why then do so many of them hold up the laws and teachings of the Old Testament (ie the ten commandments). The Old-Testament law was fulfilled through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and a new order was set in place, but christians pick and choose what they want from the Bible in order to set up a standard by which they wish to live. In doing so they view themselves as superior to others who do not follow the same dictums.

Homo sapiens have the good fortune, or misfortune depending on your viewpoint, of foresight, of being able to separate thought from emotion and of the ability to modify previous solutions to apply them to new problems. That is what separates us from other animals. Unfortunately, a lot of old evolutionary, irrational baggage is still coursing through our genes (some of us more than others).

We are all animals, and we all are atheists some of us to a greater degree than others.

- pod
 
^:thumbup: we still carry with us vestiges of our evolutionary past that we no longer need.
 
As always, pod, you write well.


periopdoc said:
What I wouldn't give to just be able to suspend disbelief, relinquish reality and join with my family and friends in worship.
Click to expand...

I share this sentiment. Life might be simpler if I could, but I can't.

I can easily accept that my churchgoing Christian wife has had some experience that led to her belief; she accepts that I haven't and don't.

She makes no attempts to convert me, and I don't attempt to 'convert' her to atheism. If the lessons, serenity, and companionship she gets from her church make her a happier person (and they do), why would I? We have enough in common that 15 years into the relationship the days and years still get better and better. Our kids sometimes go to church with her, and I'm sure that whatever anybody teaches them, eventually they'll decide what they believe on their own.

I sometimes think it'd be nice to have total spiritual homogeneity within our family, but not at the cost of basic honesty.


periopdoc said:
Ultimately, as Richard Dawkins says, we are all atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than most.
Click to expand...

These days when people press me for why I'm a heathen unbeliever, I tell them that I don't believe in their god for the exact same reason they don't believe in Zeus.

They either get the point or they get offended; either way I can usually escape the conversation shortly thereafter.
 
Pod and pgg.... Couldn't of said it better! Thank you for being more eloquent than I ever could imagine.
 
Jet, you're welcome! You're right about the significance vs. insignificance of Jesus in Christianity vs. Judaism. There are things in life that are extremely hard to understand...a lot of suffering and tragedy doesn't make sense to us...but we are living in a finite world with a small perspective of life. It is possible for God to use the incomprehensibly tough circumstances and human suffering that we witness for good. I'm not saying that He does evil things...just that He may allow us to do evil things...but that's not the end of it.

For instance, even if you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, just roll with this hypothetical. There's this great dude, Jesus that is performing miracles, raising people from the dead, transforming peoples' lives in incredible ways. He teaches them stuff that's life-changing and revolutionary. He loves them. A couple of skeptics get together and decide to kill him because he lets them down (politically...a suffering servant for a Messiah is not the type of earthly establishment of a king and his kingdom that they want). So, they kill him. Just stop and consider that. The Son of God is dead now. But was he the Son of God if he's dead? How could he be...surely, he would have rescued himself. So, for a period of time...even for say 72hrs, something terrible and tragic happened. Incomprehensible. But the Resurrection rolls around on the third day...and that totally changes how you view/interpret the Justice/logic behind the Crucifixion.

Not all things will make sense. Someone close to me in my family died some years ago. It was tragic and incomprehensible. I still do not understand the reason behind it. I don't know why God allowed it.

But my faith is not dead. It's tough to reconcile things...but God doesn't expect us to understand everything. And it's ok if we wrestle with Him and we bring issues to Him. I go to Him and tell Him that I don't understand, but I still love Him.

Jet and Gypsy, about hell and throwing the others in the trash...

The Bible's descriptions of Hell have a lot of imagery. It's possible that some is metaphorical. I believe (and there are plenty of other Christians) that think that people are destroyed if they don't embrace Jesus and the God of this universe. Hell is essentially separation from God. It's not this medieval picture of a torture chamber that conjures up our sense of injustice and outrage with a celestial tyrant.

I understand it like this. If heaven is infinite joy being in the presence and love of God...that's infinity. The difference between that and an eternal hell (-infinity) vs. complete destruction (zero) is the same. Mathematically:
infinity - (-infinity) = 2.infinity = infinity = infinity - 0.

There are some amazing apologists that can answer your questions better than I can. See the previous post for those.

Hope you guys get a good weekend.
 
Last edited:
pgg said:
They either get the point or they get offended; either way I can usually escape the conversation shortly thereafter.
Click to expand...

As stated by Sir Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

On myriad finite and specific topics, people will be fanatical. In something as personal as religion, it either really resonates with you, or it really doesn't (recall what happens to crystal structures when they encounter a resonant frequency - although that's, strictly speaking, a bad example). If they understand your point, or do get offended, but go away in either case, all is well. However, when the fanaticism kicks in, that person keeps talking ad nauseam et ad absurdum, and that is the total PITA. If you try to wear me down by attrition, you're not going to make me join your army.
 
sweetalkr said:
i had those thoughts years ago. i read all major eastern and western religions

western religions (juadaism, christianity islam) believe you are born a sinner, and saved by accepting (insert name) as your savior

eastern philosophies (hinduism, buddhism) believe you are born pure, and corrupted by society.

all religions make up some story about what happens BEFORE birth and AFTER death. the truth is, NO ONE KNOWS.

but EVERYONE preaches the same thing on Earth. A good Christian is a good Hindu is a Good Jew is a Good muslim.

If there is a God or Heaven that won't accept Gandhi equally with Mother Teresa based on faith, he can keep that heaven. Pay forward, live a good life, and have a good conscience. when in doubt, counsel your loved ones and make an educated decision. and make your children learn from your mistakes and make the world a better place through them. Ultimately, you will be gone and your children will be your legacy
Click to expand...

Don't know how I missed this post the first time around... sweetalkr - I knew there was a reason we got along. :cool:
 
sebsvenmdc said:
Jet, you're welcome! You're right about the significance vs. insignificance of Jesus in Christianity vs. Judaism. There are things in life that are extremely hard to understand...a lot of suffering and tragedy doesn't make sense to us...but we are living in a finite world with a small perspective of life. It is possible for God to use the incomprehensibly tough circumstances and human suffering that we witness for good. I'm not saying that He does evil things...just that He may allow us to do evil things...but that's not the end of it.

For instance, even if you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, just roll with this hypothetical. There's this great dude, Jesus that is performing miracles, raising people from the dead, transforming peoples' lives in incredible ways. He teaches them stuff that's life-changing and revolutionary. He loves them. A couple of skeptics get together and decide to kill him because he lets them down (politically...a suffering servant for a Messiah is not the type of earthly establishment of a king and his kingdom that they want). So, they kill him. Just stop and consider that. The Son of God is dead now. But was he the Son of God if he's dead? How could he be...surely, he would have rescued himself. So, for a period of time...even for say 72hrs, something terrible and tragic happened. Incomprehensible. But the Resurrection rolls around on the third day...and that totally changes how you view/interpret the Justice/logic behind the Crucifixion.

Not all things will make sense. Someone close to me in my family died some years ago. It was tragic and incomprehensible. I still do not understand the reason behind it. I don't know why God allowed it.

But my faith is not dead. It's tough to reconcile things...but God doesn't expect us to understand everything. And it's ok if we wrestle with Him and we bring issues to Him. I go to Him and tell Him that I don't understand, but I still love Him.

Jet and Gypsy, about hell and throwing the others in the trash...

The Bible's descriptions of Hell have a lot of imagery. It's possible that some is metaphorical. I believe (and there are plenty of other Christians) that think that people are destroyed if they don't embrace Jesus and the God of this universe. Hell is essentially separation from God. It's not this medieval picture of a torture chamber that conjures up our sense of injustice and outrage with a celestial tyrant.

I understand it like this. If heaven is infinite joy being in the presence and love of God...that's infinity. The difference between that and an eternal hell (-infinity) vs. complete destruction (zero) is the same. Mathematically:
infinity - (-infinity) = 2.infinity = infinity = infinity - 0.

There are some amazing apologists that can answer your questions better than I can. See the previous post for those.

Hope you guys get a good weekend.
Click to expand...

I just wanna say I'm thankful for the interaction here.

THIS THREAD

kinda went

VIRAL

which means

ALOTTA YOU DUDES/DUDETTES

THINK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF SPIRITUALITY

LIKE I DO......

and how maybe, regardless of the religious conduit you choose (choosing to NOT partake included)

making a

CHOICE

and living by said choice

makes a person

STRONGER.

I believe

NOT JUDGING OTHER'S CHOICES

is as important as our individual beliefs.

I will re-read this post. It's difficult to NOT JUDGE.

I've been guilty of above.

I believe those who are

NONJUDGEMENTAL

lead a life I strive for.
 
Stillwater45 said:
Having gone to church my entire life,I still have frequent issues with the christian culture. Which, at its worst, can be filled with coo coo straight laced Ned Flander types, hypocrites, and judgmental extremist. I really think these types of "Christians" really do a good job of turning people off to religion. At its best, however, a christian community is a body of humble believers who understand that there is more to life, and come together to worship God and encourage and serve each other and the community around them... It really is unfortunate that we (humans) tend to ruin such a good thing by throwing our own agendas, ambitions, and politics into the mix. Although this could be chalked up to our own sin nature, but that a whole nother bag of worms.

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Like-Jaz...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308705597&sr=1-1
Click to expand...

This pretty much sums up how I feel, although there was about a 10 year period of time where I didn't go to church, but that is a whole other thread.

In the end, I reflect back on my Walk to Emmaus (#57, table of John <clap>). Through all the theorizing, philosophizing, rationalization, and general discussion about God vs science, it boils down to the fact that on my Emmmaus Walk, I SAW God in action. Right in front of me, with my own eyes, the power of God enveloping a person (sometimes for the first time) is an unexplainable experience that is absolutely unmistakable.

Jet, I hope you find your way. I encourage you to pop into your local Methodist church and ask about the Emmaus Community local to you. It is a non-denominational event, but generally run by the Methodist church..
 
Jet, I just realized that I forgot to include the final pivotal quandary in my "conversion" to atheism (both my kids are sick and sidetracked me before I finished)

When I arrived at the point that I discarded the faith of my youth (and believe me it was a hardcore wacky faith... we are talking about big-time fundamentalist, three church services a week plus other activities, the church is more important than your family, end-times, joint-wealth, live together in communes "farms" because we are separated from the world as the chosen few, excommunicate you for kissing a girl, any major decision was taken to the elders who would obtain 3 hallucinations "visions" from the schizophrenics "prophets" and then interpret them to divine whether you are making the right decision, all day demonic release services...) I had to look around and say, "Okay what faith do I follow now?"

Being released from following the god of my upbringing, I was free of "having" to follow a specific religion or choose a specific god. With nothing more to go on than what others were pontificating, and with no Emmaus experience giving me an inner peace that there really is a god or that one religion has it right, I found myself in a powerful, logical quandary.

Even if I do believe that there is a god, no matter which religion I pick, there is a greater chance that I will choose the WRONG religion than the RIGHT religion. (and will go to hell anyway)

It was at that point that I ended my struggle to obtain faith. For a while I believed I was agnostic, and to some degree still feel this way (The non-existence of god is not necessarily the logical extension of the realization that most religions have it wrong, there is still an infinitesimal chance that one religion happened to get it right or that god exists and no religion has got it right), and I am open to the possibility of a new realization that god exists. Eventually however, I realized that, if I am honest with myself, in my heart of hearts I truly believe that god does not exist, as opposed to simply not knowing whether he exists or not. Oddly enough, I still have an inner fear of hell even though I do not logically believe in hell. You can only deprogram so much from your warped mind.

Once again, it's just a retelling of my experience fwiw.

Funny how I have been more honest about this process on this thread then I have ever been with even the closest of my friends. The one set are agnostic/ atheist and I don't want to be honest with them about the religion of my upbringing, the others are hard-core religious and I don't want to be fully honest about the extent of my unbelief. That is why I say it would be easier to just give up reason and take on faith... if only it was in me to have faith.

- pod
 
periopdoc said:
Oddly enough, I still have an inner fear of hell even though I do not logically believe in hell. You can only deprogram so much from your warped mind.
Click to expand...

This is how I feel sometimes. You can never completely escape the indoctrination. The fear is planted inside your head before you can even see its absurdity. So although I don't completely agree with my religion, I still have the fear that if I don't follow it...a punishment awaits for me...although rationally I know this fear is unfounded.
 
So.... the universe is still expanding. This is fact.

What was there before the big bang (if you believe this theory)?

Before the singularity?

And who or what or how...did it come to be?

This is an important question in my mind.
 
Expanding into what? What is beyond the boundary of the universe? Also an fascinating and important question. Ponder these things too long and I suspect one would lose touch with reality or become religious, but I slip into redundancy.

- pod
 
BLADEMDA said:
No not really. God is there for all. Just ask Him. Try it. He is your Helper and Counselor. HE is willing and able to Forgive you; He loves you unconditionally. Trust in Him. Pray. He can work miracles in your life.
Click to expand...

:thumbup::thumbup: Well said, brother.
 
sevoflurane said:
So.... the universe is still expanding. This is fact.

What was there before the big bang (if you believe this theory)?

Before the singularity?

And who or what or how...did it come to be?
Click to expand...

I don't know.


sevoflurane said:
This is an important question in my mind.
Click to expand...

Is "god did it" really a more satisfying answer? Has "god did it" ever been a sastisfying answer to anything, even during the ignorant interval before science caught up and provided an actual answer?


To me and many other people who are content to see the world as it is, not how we wish it was, these are interesting questions, but not really important ones.

Would peeling back another incremental layer of physics, answering those questions, and raising new ones, really change your life?
 
I am going to try and keep this as short as possible.

Jet, I often had the same issues w the religions, but religions serve to separate people.

I have a very solid and unwavering view for myself, and I believe everyone is entitled to what they believe and a life as they wish to live it.

I tend to believe we complicate things too much and then are "forced" to believe and follow behaviors and opinions we never took the time or brain power to decide for ourselves.

Two emotions- Fear and Love

Every other emotion and every decision is made from one of these roots.

I came to a point in my life where I had to choose whether or not I believed the "higher power" or "god" was all love or not. If it is then there is no hell other than that which we create for ourselves in our own experience. We do this by the confusion or illusion that we are separate from God rather than "of" God.

I am not going to pretend that I can explain or give examples better than the authors of books I have read. But there are some quotes that help me to remember what is important.

One of them is this, "At the end of the game, the king and the pawn both return to the same box".

I think you may enjoy "The Book" by Alan Watts and/or "Conversations with God" series by Neale Donald Walsch.

There are many others as well, but it only matters what feels and seems right to you, because your life is lived and experienced only from your viewpoint.
 
Jet,

I used to feel the way you did, until one day I got knocked on my a-- harder than I ever have in my life....and then I knew. At that point I knew what I needed to know without any doubt, question, logic, reason, or explanation. I tapped into something I didn't think I had access to otherwise. My life has never been the same, ever since.
 
periopdoc said:
Expanding into what? What is beyond the boundary of the universe? Also an fascinating and important question. Ponder these things too long and I suspect one would lose touch with reality or become religious, but I slip into redundancy.

- pod
Click to expand...
"I suspect one would lose touch with reality"-
WHAT REALITY????
What is that?
The bleak and dark world that we live in . Although you have a huge advantage . At least yours is white and wonderful some months...
The truth is - that we are in a journey and the final end is DEATH. Yes - it is DEATH. And we want to get there - just to get the eternal LIFE.
This is for sure.
If you believe that we are here , on the Earth just to fill up our bellies, have some sex and experience some "cool stuff"...
And after that to vanish...
I would kill myself today. If this one would be true.
The life wouldn't have a meaning.
I believe that we are here to get better and closer to our God. Jesus Christ.
The first step to get there is to be humble.
I am still working to get there.
As you see in my post....
 
Guys, I encourage you not to feel like you're forced into deciding between God/religion and science. They are not mutually exclusive. Christianity is not incompatible with an old earth theory. The genre of Genesis is not scientific...otherwise, it would at least have several hundred equations in it. I love understanding how the universe works. I believe it's possible that the universe is at least 10 billion years old.

I also believe that there is a God that loves us more than we can fathom. He is such an integral component to my existence...if the God that I believe in does not exist...if this universe simply is a transient soup of physical meaninglessness...I echo 2win's sentiment: I have no desire to do anything in this existence.

I don't have all the answers, but I know that trying to make sense of things intellectually as much as possible in combination with at least some measure of faith will always be my priority. God has given me an innate desire and passion to know Him. It may seem to oppose the notion of God-designed free will (including the desire to believe in Him), but maybe it's a retrospective perspective of something that once was free.

One last thing, guys. We only get this one life to choose what to believe. Believing that God could send Himself in an ant form for us and be sacrificed for us to spend eternity with us...that's something too amazing to ever pass up.
 
2win said:
The truth is - that we are in a journey and the final end is DEATH. Yes - it is DEATH. And we want to get there - just to get the eternal LIFE.
This is for sure.
Click to expand...

There's nothing after death. Enjoy and be grateful for the life you have.

I can imagine no greater waste of life, than one spent in constant anticipation of death.
 
2win said:
"I suspect one would lose touch with reality"-
WHAT REALITY????
What is that?
The bleak and dark world that we live in . Although you have a huge advantage . At least yours is white and wonderful some months...
The truth is - that we are in a journey and the final end is DEATH. Yes - it is DEATH. And we want to get there - just to get the eternal LIFE.
This is for sure.
If you believe that we are here , on the Earth just to fill up our bellies, have some sex and experience some "cool stuff"...
And after that to vanish...
I would kill myself today. If this one would be true.
The life wouldn't have a meaning.
I believe that we are here to get better and closer to our God. Jesus Christ.
The first step to get there is to be humble.
I am still working to get there.
As you see in my post....
Click to expand...

but that is just it isn't it? Religion teaches us to be satisfied with areas of our existence that we otherwise might work to improve. Had I stuck with religion, I would not be an anesthesiologist in Montana making great money and having lots of time off to enjoy it. Would I be any less happy? Perhaps. I believe that happiness and despair are products of our genetic makeup and our outlook on life, not our social status. However, I feel incredibly lucky that I gave up religion and pursued something that gave me a better station in life. What is it that religion is keeping you from trying to change in your life?

Camusian despair is not isolated to non-believers nor is suicide. You display evidence of it in your statements. Is your life really so bleak that you would commit suicide if it weren't for the hope of a different life after death? If so, you should SERIOUSLY consider counseling. This life is fascinating. We are incredibly lucky to be able to enjoy it for a small fraction of time before we return to the sand from which we came. Yes sex, food etc are all great, but those are simple pleasures enjoyed by all animals. We actually get to study about life, about how it all works, about the intricacies of it all. By some cosmological accident you were lucky enough to be born. There are untold potential lives that were not lucky enough to be born. Their story is told in your DNA and all the potential locked up inside each of your cells.

Why is it that religious people ask about the meaning (purpose in fact) of life as a proof that there is a god? Asking the question presupposes a supernatural being as you are asking about a higher purpose. Why does life owe you a teleological answer to that question any more than it owes you a teleological answer to the purpose of gold? We are lucky enough to live, make the most of this life, then die. Only in the brief iota of time that we are alive in this form will we care about a "purpose." In the vast eons of time before you came to exist, you did not care about a purpose... Neither will you care once you die.

And I am serious about a counselor. A belief in god does not save one from suicide when that person is in despair over the state of the life they are experiencing. If the only thing keeping you hanging on is a belief in god and the hope of a better afterlife, your life will continue to be miserable unless and until you seek help to improve it.

- pod
 
sebsvenmdc said:
Guys, I encourage you not to feel like you're forced into deciding between God/religion and science. They are not mutually exclusive. Christianity is not incompatible with an old earth theory. The genre of Genesis is not scientific...otherwise, it would at least have several hundred equations in it. I love understanding how the universe works. I believe it's possible that the universe is at least 10 billion years old.

I also believe that there is a God that loves us more than we can fathom. He is such an integral component to my existence...if the God that I believe in does not exist...if this universe simply is a transient soup of physical meaninglessness...I echo 2win's sentiment: I have no desire to do anything in this existence.

I don't have all the answers, but I know that trying to make sense of things intellectually as much as possible in combination with at least some measure of faith will always be my priority. God has given me an innate desire and passion to know Him. It may seem to oppose the notion of God-designed free will (including the desire to believe in Him), but maybe it's a retrospective perspective of something that once was free.

One last thing, guys. We only get this one life to choose what to believe. Believing that God could send Himself in an ant form for us and be sacrificed for us to spend eternity with us...that's something too amazing to ever pass up.
Click to expand...
:thumbup::thumbup:
 
pgg said:
Would peeling back another incremental layer of physics, answering those questions, and raising new ones, really change your life?
Click to expand...

I don't think that answering how and why the universe was created is "peeling back yet another layer of physics."

Dude... we are talking about the universe and its creation 14 billion years ago. The amount of energy and power is beyond that of human understanding. It's expansion in the first second is also beyond anything you or I can ever even begin to imagine. Remember we are a mear speck of dust in this universe.

This is not merely another question... this IS the question. It is an omnipotent event my friend.... no matter how you cut it. The question remains...

WHO, WHAT, WHY and HOW?

This is the reason why this question is so fundamentally important to ME. What was there before the singularity and before the big bang? I ask this again for you to ponder.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOz4PkdY7aA&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Do you believe in extraterrestrial life? There is no doubt in my mind that life exists beyond our minuscule corner of our galaxy- which is even more minuscule when you consider who many galaxies exist in our universe. We are not the only special ones.... Let me explain:

Galaxies, on average have between 100 billion and 1 trillion numbers of stars.

Now, how many galaxies are there? Astronomers estimate that there are approximately 100 billion to 1 trillion galaxies in the Universe. So if you multiply those two numbers together, you get between 10^22 and 10^24 stars in the Universe. How many stars? There are between 10 sextillion and 1 septillion stars in the Universe. That's a large number of stars.

But life beyond ours is not the point of this thread. That is another subject. Yet, just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

These questions are good to think about regardless of what layer you may be peeling.

To be sure is to be blindsided. Especially when there are questions to be answered. My spider sense in tingling on this one and I'm a factual kind of guy.

FWIW, I'm not christian, jewish, muslim, etc. I just try and be the best I can be during this life...

In body
In mind
In spirit.

In my humble opinion. :)
 
What a fantastic thread. A great read all around.

Pod and Gypsy, I particularly enjoyed your commentary

Carry on :D
 
sevoflurane said:
I don’t think that answering how and why the universe was created is “peeling back yet another layer of physics.”
Click to expand...

There's always another layer.

If it turns out that the initial singularity that started off our universe was convincingly explained by string theory and was a result of colliding waves in some n-dimensional space, you'd want to know where those n dimensions or waves came from. That's what I mean about additional layers.

This week, "god" caused the singularity.

Maybe next week we'll know what really caused the singularity, and believers will have to shoehorn god into the space behind the next unknown or incompletely understood layer.

It's been that way, over and over, for thousands of years. There's no reason to believe that this time's different.

Like I said, very interesting questions. Physics and cosmology are fascinating subjects. But not important in the context of religion, if you take an objective view: physics doesn't need god, and belief in god doesn't need physics.

Hawking's Book said:
A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"
Click to expand...

No matter how many layers are peeled back, or how many turtles science can look under, there will always be room to say "god did it" when our understanding or vision comes up against a temporary obstacle.

Some of us don't need to pretend that god's at the bottom of the pile of turtles.

Some of us are content to see that the garden is beautiful, without having to pretend there are fairies in it too.

Some of us aren't.
 
pgg said:
There's always another layer.
Click to expand...

"There is always another layer" implies infinity, and that answer does not satisfy me.


Not sure I agree that there is another layer once you get back to before the universe was created.... not sure about that as you are looking back before time even existed.....

But you make a solid historical point. And yes... at one time people did think the world was flat... and they got blindsided once they found out it wasn't. :eek:

I do believe in the fact that everything we see came from something, somewhere, somehow. I don't believe in a spontaneous universe.

I don't believe in something out of nothing.

That is all I'm saying bro. No more, no less. Just a thought I ponder when trying to find the truth.... which none of us here know with 100% certainty.

I respect your point of view. It's just a point of view I am not currently willing to accept.

Just like I don't accept we are the only intelligent beings in this universe.

drake-equation2.jpg
 
periopdoc said:
but that is just it isn't it? Religion teaches us to be satisfied with areas of our existence that we otherwise might work to improve. Had I stuck with religion, I would not be an anesthesiologist in Montana making great money and having lots of time off to enjoy it. Would I be any less happy? Perhaps. I believe that happiness and despair are products of our genetic makeup and our outlook on life, not our social status. However, I feel incredibly lucky that I gave up religion and pursued something that gave me a better station in life. What is it that religion is keeping you from trying to change in your life?

Camusian despair is not isolated to non-believers nor is suicide. You display evidence of it in your statements. Is your life really so bleak that you would commit suicide if it weren't for the hope of a different life after death? If so, you should SERIOUSLY consider counseling. This life is fascinating. We are incredibly lucky to be able to enjoy it for a small fraction of time before we return to the sand from which we came. Yes sex, food etc are all great, but those are simple pleasures enjoyed by all animals. We actually get to study about life, about how it all works, about the intricacies of it all. By some cosmological accident you were lucky enough to be born. There are untold potential lives that were not lucky enough to be born. Their story is told in your DNA and all the potential locked up inside each of your cells.

Why is it that religious people ask about the meaning (purpose in fact) of life as a proof that there is a god? Asking the question presupposes a supernatural being as you are asking about a higher purpose. Why does life owe you a teleological answer to that question any more than it owes you a teleological answer to the purpose of gold? We are lucky enough to live, make the most of this life, then die. Only in the brief iota of time that we are alive in this form will we care about a "purpose." In the vast eons of time before you came to exist, you did not care about a purpose... Neither will you care once you die.

And I am serious about a counselor. A belief in god does not save one from suicide when that person is in despair over the state of the life they are experiencing. If the only thing keeping you hanging on is a belief in god and the hope of a better afterlife, your life will continue to be miserable unless and until you seek help to improve it.

- pod
Click to expand...
Hi Doc - I am a blessed person.
Because I believe in God our Jesus Christ.
In the next days I'll go point by point trying to respond at my best to your reply.

" Religion teaches us to be satisfied with areas of our existence that we otherwise might work to improve."
That's NOT true. The Christians beliefs are that we HAVE to improve. This is the ONLY reason that we are here on the Earth.
We are not satisfied that we are greedy, liars, drunks, haters, despaired, depressed and so on.
We acknowledge this facts, we know that this are NOT from our God but send to us from the devil one. We pray and ask for Jesus help in order to win the battle with them. And this battle is day by day and second by second. Through Jesus and the grace of The Holy Spirit we become closer to the image of God.
We don't blame ourselves for our sins BUT we know that we are vulnerable to them because of the weakness of Adam and Eve. Our ancestors. ( And agree here with you regarding the "genetic status"...)

"We are lucky enough to live, make the most of this life, then die."
For us there is no "luck". All the good things come from God.
To "make the most of this life" means to get closer to God. This is the only meaning of life. Actually we prepare for the final chapter THE DEATH - when we'll be judged by Christ and maybe we'll have eternal life. See how different is this compared with the "LIVE YOUR LIFE NOW!!!!" theory? Of course our attitude doesn't fit very well with our times. This is one of the reasons that we are not very liked by the "liberal" groups. Thanks God!!!!

" If the only thing keeping you hanging on is a belief in god and the hope of a better afterlife, your life will continue to be miserable unless and until you seek help to improve it."
You are wrong again - there is not a "better afterlife" - its is the only LIFE!
I am not miserable at all. I am blessed. I have an awesome family, good friends, great church. I am "abnormally happy". Sounds strange maybe for you but we Christians believe that the difficulties in life are a test of our faith. They help us to get better. I'll come later with some stories about that . True stories.
Pager is on - have to go.
2win
BTW - we don't have counselors - we have our priests and monks and pastors.
There is no morality without theology.
 
I don't believe in something out of nothing.
Click to expand...

The universe either came out of "nothing" or it came out of god. So god either came out of nothing or some other thing created god, if you are to stay within the realm of what makes sense logically. There's also the alternative of god having always been, which seems completely illogical, based on any logic I can think of (though it is what I currently accept). I think logic is limited.
 
jetproppilot said:
I just caught Joel Osteen on TV...man...that dude has a message, huh?

Then I think yeah Jet, Joel Osteen has a message but he's a TV EVANGELIST...does he have ulterior motives???
Click to expand...

Yeah, he has a message alright...

Buckets of money -- over $43 million a year gets collected in the church, another $30 million or so comes in the mail. It's a cash cow and a family business. Osteen's brother, sister and mother are ministers in the church. But the real money for Osteen comes from his book sales, which are re-packaged versions of his sermons. His latest book, "Become A Better You," for which he reportedly got a $13 million advance, debuted in October at number one on the New York Times bestseller list and is on the list today. The book lays out seven principles he believes will improve our lives.
Click to expand...

... you be the judge whether or not this is an "ulterior motive".

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/60minutes/main3358652_page2.shtml

periopdoc said:
I guess I took the opposite approach to life Jet. I completed my spiritual quest before pursuing a medical career. l spent several years studying, fasting, praying. Went to cemetery seminary etc.

Ultimately, I listed out the things I truly believed and studied them one by one. After careful consideration of the possibilities and the likelihoods, I eliminated them one by one.

I found that every religion has its roots in power, the desire of a few to control the many. While you can tease out some positive things that occur in religious circles, the net outcome is IMHO very ugly.

Every religion teaches you to not live this current life to the fullest rather to be satisfied with your lot in life in the hopes of having a better life in the future. I would rather live this life to the fullest.

I do believe that the ability and the desire to suspend reason and disbelief is genetic. I am on the end of the spectrum where I was not able to suspend reason and disbelief no matter how hard I tried. When I was finally honest with myself, I had to admit that when I was a professing christian there was always an inner feeling of living a lie. I never believed, deep down, the things I was saying. Now it is excruciating to set foot in a church as I see people willingly blinding themselves to all the hypocrisy, judgementalism, and indoctrination around them.

Coming from my background the journey to atheism was extremely painful. Still is. What I wouldn't give to just be able to suspend disbelief, relinquish reality and join with my family and friends in worship. The area of the country that I love to live in is filled with people who would disassociate from me if they knew the truth of my non-belief. Yet I have to be true to myself if not them.

Ultimately, as Richard Dawkins says, we are all atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than most.


Not so much advice as just a recounting of my own journey. Good luck on yours. I hope you find what you are looking for.

- pod
Click to expand...

:thumbup:

-copro
 
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