HIPAA violation?

[Command]

During a interview tour at a medical school, the ambassadors showed us a cadaver & opened his rib cage for us to see.

At another school, the ambassador said they weren't allowed to show us cadavers due to HIPAA.

I didn't sign a HIPAA form prior to touring the first med school. Was this a HIPAA violation?

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[kyamh]

Is there a reason you are concerned? Would you to report the ambassador? Would you like to report the school?

I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but I hope that in the future one of the skills you gain is an appreciation of when a situation is cause for concern -sensitive information is not treated correctly - vs blindly following rules. Sometimes there are situations that are the opposite: technically no rule is broken but the circumstances are such that the action in question is still inappropriate.

Good luck in your interview season, congratulations on your multiple interviews.

 

[Command]

Thank for your reply.

I have no intention of reporting anyone, I just want to know which tour guide was right.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

Is there a reason you are concerned? Would you to report the ambassador? Would you like to report the school?

I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but I hope that in the future one of the skills you gain is an appreciation of when a situation is cause for concern -sensitive information is not treated correctly - vs blindly following rules. Sometimes there are situations that are the opposite: technically no rule is broken but the circumstances are such that the action in question is still inappropriate.

Good luck in your interview season, congratulations on your multiple interviews.

Probably the harshest, most defensive response I've ever seen to such a passive, honest question while never actually providing a legitimate answer.

Probably about 1/2 of my schools let me view the cadaver lab last cycle, about 1/2 of those let us see actual cadavers (if you so choose). Unfortunately, I am not sure what the policy regarding this is. I can see why HIPAA is a concern, but many, many schools do this during interviews of prospective medical students, not that it alleviates HIPAA violation.

 

[Pacna]

Probably the harshest, most defensive response I've ever seen to such a passive, honest question while never actually providing a legitimate answer.

Probably about 1/2 of my schools let me view the cadaver lab last cycle, about 1/2 of those let us see actual cadavers (if you so choose). Unfortunately, I am not sure what the policy regarding this is. I can see why HIPAA is a concern, but many, many schools do this during interviews of prospective medical students.

I was thinking the same.

I had this exact experience and question. The schools were in the same state, so it wasn't a state law thing.

I would like to know the answer, too.

 

[LizzyM]

HIPAA provides national standard for the protection of protected health information. INFORMATION. A covered entity which includes most health care clinicians and the facilities where they practice (providers) and health plans (individual and group insurance, coverage from employers, etc) and health care clearinghouses (aggregators of information about health claims). Information can be shared with others in ways that are stipulated by law.

I'm not sure what protected health information about an individual would be shared by letting you look at a cadaver. Frankly, I think that HIPAA gets used as a shibboleth when someone doesn't want to be bothered to do something in a health care setting whether it is permitting a student to shadow or allowing people access to a medical school anatomy lab. (The medical school in the role of teaching anatomy is not a health care provider, not a helath plan and not a health care clearinghouse, is it?)

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

HIPAA violation - definitely not

Against school policy - very possible.

This is why it varies so much from school to school.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

Frankly, I think that HIPAA gets used as a shibboleth when someone doesn't want to be bothered to do something in a health care setting whether it is permitting a student to shadow or allowing people access to a medical school anatomy lab.

Basically how I had figured it, too. Some schools just do not want to go to the trouble of shuffling prospective students through an anatomy lab when they are trying to get interviews done and narrow down the applicant pool to whom they wish to select.

 

[kyamh]

Apologies for my manner of response, OP. I feel strongly about the opinions I put forth, but upon a second look I recognize that I linked my frustration with people I have had this identical conversation with and you. Believe it or not, more than one interviewee thought they could get bonus points fit whistle blowing on their tour guide. Not cool. I didn't read your response as an honest question.

 

[Ok2Panic]

Just wanted to second Lizzy's reply. I think it's important to actually know what HIPAA covers and what it entails both from the standpoint of not accidentally making a mistake by chatting in an elevator or something, but also because it really unfortunately gets thrown around in a catch-all, very nebulous sort of way.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

Just wanted to second Lizzy's reply. I think it's important to actually know what HIPAA covers and what it entails both from the standpoint of not accidentally making a mistake by chatting in an elevator or something, but also because it really unfortunately gets thrown around in a catch-all, very nebulous sort of way.

To clarify out of curiosity, would the case of showing potential students the cadavers without any HIPAA-protected information be under some sort of fair-use policy with the donors?

My experience with cadaver confidentiality is generally to just keep anyone not active in cadaver anatomy away from them in the off chance someone happens to recognize the cadaver, gain access to medical info, etc.

 

[tantacles]

HIPAA provides national standard for the protection of protected health information. INFORMATION. A covered entity which includes most health care clinicians and the facilities where they practice (providers) and health plans (individual and group insurance, coverage from employers, etc) and health care clearinghouses (aggregators of information about health claims). Information can be shared with others in ways that are stipulated by law.

I'm not sure what protected health information about an individual would be shared by letting you look at a cadaver. Frankly, I think that HIPAA gets used as a shibboleth when someone doesn't want to be bothered to do something in a health care setting whether it is permitting a student to shadow or allowing people access to a medical school anatomy lab. (The medical school in the role of teaching anatomy is not a health care provider, not a helath plan and not a health care clearinghouse, is it?)

I agree, but I really just wanted to compliment you on your use of the word shibboleth, one of my personal favorites.

 

[darkjedi]

As others have said, this doesn't fall under the guise of HIPAA. Internal policies will differ from school to school though. The cadaver lab is actually part of our official school/interview tour. Optional of course.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It's funny...at my school when we gave tours we were told not to take the applicants to the anatomy lab as it was "against policy"

Since I graduated they built a brand new shiny lab which now features prominently in the tour.

Interesting how the policy magically changed

 

[PreMedOrDead]

It's funny...at my school when we gave tours we were told not to take the applicants to the anatomy lab as it was "against policy"

Since I graduated they built a brand new shiny lab which now features prominently in the tour.

Interesting how the policy magically changed

I actually figured this during my application cycle. If you didn't let me see your anatomy lab, I'm assuming it's not worth showing off. Odd how all the schools who let us see had beautiful anatomy labs, big flat panel TVs around the room, and nice ventilation systems.

 

[mcloaf]

Believe it or not, more than one interviewee thought they could get bonus points fit whistle blowing on their tour guide. Not cool. I didn't read your response as an honest question.

Lol. One can only assume that trying to rat out the tour guide for breaking HIPAA without actually understanding the law ended really well for those interviewees...


Didn't these kids ever learn the G code?

 

[Doctor Strange]

I actually figured this during my application cycle. If you didn't let me see your anatomy lab, I'm assuming it's not worth showing off. Odd how all the schools who let us see had beautiful anatomy labs, big flat panel TVs around the room, and nice ventilation systems.

We actually just got a new anatomy lab with all the bells and whistles last year but are still not allowed to show it on the tour. I guess it varies from school to school.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

We actually just got a new anatomy lab with all the bells and whistles last year but are still not allowed to show it on the tour. I guess it varies from school to school.

School probably just wants to stick with its current interview day format. Pretty reasonable.

 

[Chir0nex]

I don't think it is a HIPPA issue, but many schools have internal policy meant to ensure that the cadavers are treated respectfully. Some schools may consider showing off cadavers to prospective students to be disrespectful/may upset families of the donors, and so prefer to leave them covered for tours.

However, I do not remember any school skipping the anatomy lab on the tour completely. It is a big part of first year, and while it does not need to be beautiful, if a school is keeping it hidden it does raise some concerns.

 

[Ok2Panic]

I don't think it is a HIPPA issue, but many schools have internal policy meant to ensure that the cadavers are treated respectfully. Some schools may consider showing off cadavers to prospective students to be disrespectful/may upset families of the donors, and so prefer to leave them covered for tours.

However, I do not remember any school skipping the anatomy lab on the tour completely. It is a big part of first year, and while it does not need to be beautiful, if a school is keeping it hidden it does raise some concerns.

I don't know, I'd kind of caution the opposite. I know this wasn't the OPs original point, so sorry to go on a tangent. But I remember that as a pre-med I paid way too much attention to anatomy labs and students per body and all sorts of random anatomy related things. But in the end, Anatomy is only a portion of one year of your experience during medical school. Fancy labs with flat screens and bells and whistles are nice and alluring, but I'd say don't put too much undue emphasis on things that are ultimately really minimally going to impact your education and med school experience. It's hard not to get caught up in it--med schools play it up and parade things like anatomy labs and match lists to applicants, so it all feels incredibly important. But I wouldn't consider the absence of an anatomy lab as a stop on the tour as a red flag. Maybe they don't see the necessity of filling your head with the scent of formaldahyde just to see a room.

 

[mcloaf]

However, I do not remember any school skipping the anatomy lab on the tour completely. It is a big part of first year, and while it does not need to be beautiful, if a school is keeping it hidden it does raise some concerns.

25% at most of the schools I interviewed at took us through the anatomy labs during the tour. I don't think they have anything to hide, just other priorities. Tours in general are sort of largely wasted time.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I don't know, I'd kind of caution the opposite. I know this wasn't the OPs original point, so sorry to go on a tangent. But I remember that as a pre-med I paid way too much attention to anatomy labs and students per body and all sorts of random anatomy related things. But in the end, Anatomy is only a portion of one year of your experience during medical school. Fancy labs with flat screens and bells and whistles are nice and alluring, but I'd say don't put too much undue emphasis on things that are ultimately really minimally going to impact your education and med school experience.

Agreed. Maybe I turned off an applicant or two, but whenever I got the standard "how many students per cadaver?" question I always (nicely) told the tour group that that is one of the most meaningless questions you can ask, and talked about the things that I think actually matter when you are selecting a med school. (And I told them that it was 4 per body at our school )

 

[NorthernMav]

HIPAA provides national standard for the protection of protected health information. INFORMATION.

This...

I do not see how this is a HIPAA violation at all. Oh no, you found out the person was human.

 

[Chir0nex]

I don't know, I'd kind of caution the opposite. I know this wasn't the OPs original point, so sorry to go on a tangent. But I remember that as a pre-med I paid way too much attention to anatomy labs and students per body and all sorts of random anatomy related things. But in the end, Anatomy is only a portion of one year of your experience during medical school. Fancy labs with flat screens and bells and whistles are nice and alluring, but I'd say don't put too much undue emphasis on things that are ultimately really minimally going to impact your education and med school experience. It's hard not to get caught up in it--med schools play it up and parade things like anatomy labs and match lists to applicants, so it all feels incredibly important. But I wouldn't consider the absence of an anatomy lab as a stop on the tour as a red flag. Maybe they don't see the necessity of filling your head with the scent of formaldahyde just to see a room.

I view the lab the same way I consider the primary lecture hall or classroom for the school. It is is where you are going to spend a ton of time, and as such, I would hope that it is relatively well organized, clean etc... It is not a factor that would make me want to go, but it is something that could turn me off of the school. It may only be for one class in one year, but I think that a lab that is actively unpleasant indicates other issues in general.

The other thing is, there are fairly few things that are worth seeing on the tour, so why not show the lab? If there is a good reason, like a class in session, that is understandable, but to simply skip it just seems odd to me.

 

[circulus vitios]

I can't believe you seriously considered reporting your student tour guide.

 

[NickNaylor]

I view the lab the same way I consider the primary lecture hall or classroom for the school. It is is where you are going to spend a ton of time, and as such, I would hope that it is relatively well organized, clean etc... It is not a factor that would make me want to go, but it is something that could turn me off of the school. It may only be for one class in one year, but I think that a lab that is actively unpleasant indicates other issues in general.

The other thing is, there are fairly few things that are worth seeing on the tour, so why not show the lab? If there is a good reason, like a class in session, that is understandable, but to simply skip it just seems odd to me.

If the anatomy lab factors into your decision at all to attend medical school, you're doing it wrong. It's so unimportant in the big scheme of things. My guess is that people care about it exactly because it's shown everywhere. It's one of the few things you can actually compare from school to school, thus you place importance on it. That doesn't mean that it is actually important. Focus on things that will actually have a lasting impact on your education and training.

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[SouthernSurgeon]

If the anatomy lab factors into your decision at all to attend medical school, you're doing it wrong. It's so unimportant in the big scheme of things. My guess is that people care about it exactly because it's shown everywhere. It's one of the few things you can actually compare from school to school, thus you place importance on it. That doesn't mean that it is actually important. Focus on things that will actually have a lasting impact on your education and training.

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Agreed. We had one of the oldest anatomy labs in the country. Horrible ventilation, trapped in a basement, small, overcrowded.

We all loved it. We crammed in around the bodies, made jokes about dying of formaldehyde poisoning. I accidentally hit my buddy with our cadavers' leg when we did the hemisection of the pelvis. Made for fun and good stories. And the education was still good.

I think having nice facilities overall matters. But anatomy lab is...a lab...where you cut up dead bodies. The scenery doesn't matter that much. We had a great library and student study space, which is where we spent most of our time.