Holistic, Homeopathy, and Acupuncture in Veterinary Medicine

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But that's not ethical at all. They'd be getting charged for those services that won't be actively helping their pets. It might not hurt them but it's still snake oil.

why would it not be ethical if you explain to the owners that you have not seen any scientific evidence backing it, but that you don't see any harm. that's the truth, and not really an endorsement on your part. you wouldn't be suggesting that they go.

if they still want to i don't see what's unethical about not stopping them. i would much rather send them to some lady down the street that I trust NOT to try and convince my clients that vets only vaccinate animals and give them abx to make money off of them (while trying to fool them by masking symptoms) without actually treating the underlying problem.

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Sorry it sounded like you were saying to endorse the homeopaths because it couldn't hurt.
 
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I worked with a vet a couple summers ago who combines western medicine with acupuncture and chiropractic work, she has gone through the courses to be licensed in these areas. I got to watch the progression of a couple of cases, the one that is the most memorable to me is the foundering horse that she performed acupuncture, as well as traditional treatments on, while i am not going to say that all the progress in the case was form the acupuncture, some of it was, as the mare did progress better and more completely then most foundering horses that i have seen. In the right hands, and in conjunction with western medicine, i don't think that things like acupuncture and chiropractic work should be just disregarded.
 
awaring,

It always seems like it is a mixed bag of news when it comes to news with homeopathy. It does seem that minds are coming around to recognizing the dangerous involved as well as the ethical issues. The BMA did recently just come out against homeopathy pretty tough recently but it is definitely sad to see such unscientific ideas having the support of government bodies.

Rubygirl,

You seem to have arbitrarily assigned what portion of improvement was due to evidence based medicine and what portion was due to the alt meds. This is no way to come to an understanding of efficacy. This mare could have improved more so than others for countless reasons, to arbitrarily assign the improvement to acupuncture or chiropractics is silly.

Minnerbelle,

It's a very odd position to be in to be able to recommend a specific homeopath but in no way endorse what they are doing as valid. I agree that if they are going to go somewhere, it is best that they go to someone that understands that the stuff is not meant to be used instead of effective treatments. If the person knows this, doesn't this seem sort of an admission that it doesn't really work?
 
You seem to have arbitrarily assigned what portion of improvement was due to evidence based medicine and what portion was due to the alt meds. This is no way to come to an understanding of efficacy. This mare could have improved more so than others for countless reasons, to arbitrarily assign the improvement to acupuncture or chiropractics is silly.

im really just trying to say don't discredit it until you have seen it, my explanation doesn't do the foundering mare or the practitioner justice, it was amazing to see the may the to therapies seemed to work together to help her. If you havent been able to experience chiropractic or acupuncture work in the veterinary field then i recommend you talk to a practitioner that is trained in it just to be able to understand it better. i was always a skeptic of how needles could make anything better, but after watching the progression of a couple of cases as well as being treated for kidney pain with acupuncture
and having it make more of a difference that lasted then any amount of narcotic could i am a little less skeptical now. but still wont say that alternative medicine ALONE will cure all problems
 
im really just trying to say don't discredit it until you have seen it, my explanation doesn't do the foundering mare or the practitioner justice, it was amazing to see the may the to therapies seemed to work together to help her. If you havent been able to experience chiropractic or acupuncture work in the veterinary field then i recommend you talk to a practitioner that is trained in it just to be able to understand it better. i was always a skeptic of how needles could make anything better, but after watching the progression of a couple of cases as well as being treated for kidney pain with acupuncture
and having it make more of a difference that lasted then any amount of narcotic could i am a little less skeptical now. but still wont say that alternative medicine ALONE will cure all problems


I think it may be fair to say that acupuncture may be a viable option as a stand-alone treatment, but only if modern narcotics or other pain control can not be used.

Acupuncture may not be as effective all the time, but it can physiologically work. It just utilizes the gate theory. (I took neuro over a year ago, but I am pretty sure that is what I want to say...)
 
You talking about the endogenous opiate system? Forget what the fancy name for it is, but it's basically the thing that allows people to break their leg or get shot and not feel anything for a while if they're in a bad spot they need to get out of.
 
Rubygirl,

The point to remember is that this is anecdotal evidence at best and absolutely no way to come to a conclusion. Speaking with Drs that use these methods is also no way to come to an understanding of their efficacy. I have spoken to such practitioners including the individual who's website I listed in the original post. I have learned from these individuals that they base their opinion on wanting it to work way more than if it actually works. After hours of conversation with him, we both came to the conclusion that he truly didnt care what evidence had to say about it cause he has seen it work first hand. There really isnt much more to say to that. From what you have explained, the subject was receiving both acupuncture and western medicine. I'm just curious how you assigned what improvement was due to the acupuncture and which to the "western medicine?

Again, I am completely open to any treatment that has an effect but cannot be decided by anecdotes and wishes.
 
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I see someone has already mentioned Skeptvet, but I will echo the recommendation. I also suggest this article over at sciencebasedmedicine.org: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=519

Acupuncture may not be as effective all the time, but it can physiologically work. It just utilizes the gate theory. (I took neuro over a year ago, but I am pretty sure that is what I want to say...)

It's amazing to me to watch the progression that acupuncture proponents have had over the years. From, "It totally works!" to, "It only works for some things..." to "It may work some of the time for some things." Throw in an appeal to antiquity ("How can you dismiss something that's thousands of years old?!") and accusations of narrow mindedness toward skeptics and you've got the state of acupuncture today.

The best, most well-designed study we have on acupuncture with over 600 test subjects, where patients, doctors and researchers were blind to which group was receiving which treatment, showed that it did not matter who inserted the needles ("certified" or not), where the needles were placed (so much for meridian lines or affected area) or even if the needles were inserted at all via sham needles that retracted with steady pressure. Every treatment group reported the same degree of relief.

Acupuncture has been thoroughly debunked.
 
The Placebo Effect grows stronger the more faith the person puts into the person applying the treatment.

There was a bit of a spoof show where these guys found a short-order Chinese cook, dressed him up in a suit and told him to act like a doctor, and then they had this guy come in to try and quit smoking through acupuncture, in which the needles they used were toothpicks. I'm not sure of the legality/ethicality/legitness of it all but it was funny all the same. Dude ended up quitting smoking though so, kudos to him.
 
So, anyone know a good place to order some chakras for cheap? My chi is in need of some serious healing after the last couple of weeks of exams.
 
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So, anyone know a good place to order some chakras for cheap? My chi is in need of some serious healing after the last couple of weeks of exams.

i charge 10 dollars per chakra. Each chakra can be sent via telepathy and is guaranteed to work. Your money can be sent directly to my paypal.
 
I hate to say it, but the assumption that evidence in one species crosses into others automaticly (or even across breeds) holds the potential for more harm than accupuncture. If zoo vets held out treatment till a double blind clinical trial was performed for every species with every treatment option, we'd likely never treat anything. One of our residents just presented on 'evidence based medicine in reptiles' and the results of the literature study was, essentially 'we tried this and it didn't kill the reptile.'

As for whether or not it is effective, as long as we are honestly communicating what is currently known, and not overstating our own abilities, we are letting owners make decisions for their animals. I, for one, am still amazed at how little we really know about our own bodies, let alone all the bodies of all the creatures on the planet.

I use a thunder shirt on my storm phobic dog; it certainly isn't proven, and I am certain it doesn't work for every dog, but it means he isn't on anti-anxiety drugs during storms because, for whatever reason, he isn't shaking, crying, etc. If that is because he thinks he's a superhero, or just because it offers comfort like a blankie, I could care less. I know at one point taurine and lysine were considered alternative treatments in cats. Anyone willing to take taurine out of the diet of cats and skunks? We even learned about lysine in pharmacology. Tripe is another example....for a dog with pancreatic insufficiency, tripe can be life saving..... and at one point it was a snake oil cure, but now we understand why it is beneficial.

There was a study in human med that suggested placebo affect accounts for ~20% of cure. If my ill parent or ill pet is part of that 20%, I'm happy it worked. I also read a study recently that showed that a human med's effectiveness didn't have to be far off from placebo for it to go on market. To me, that suggests that 'evidence' only has to be mild, and varies greatly across individuals. If efficacy varies across ethnicities in humans....why wouldn't it vary across species? We already know drugs that are effective in most dogs and lethal in collies. I'd take accupuncture over ivermectin in collies any day of the week, even if I have to tell the owners I don't think it will be very effective.

Maybe I'm one of the few folks that really loves statistics and read clinical trial reviews and really wonder how NOT killing an animal with a given dose lets us know how effective it is for analgesia. I'm all for evidence when it exists, but I also realize that we aren't going to do a ton of experimental studies in Blue whales, or indian rhinos.
 
I wish I could "like" Sumstorm's post. Darn SDN has to get with the times. :pSeriously, I'm somewhere between neutral to against alternative medicine, and even I'm thinking "Well said!"
 
Maybe I'm one of the few folks that really loves statistics and read clinical trial reviews and really wonder how NOT killing an animal with a given dose lets us know how effective it is for analgesia. I'm all for evidence when it exists, but I also realize that we aren't going to do a ton of experimental studies in Blue whales, or indian rhinos.

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with the topic at hand, if anything? Your entire post reads like a long-winded much ado about nothing. We have evidence regarding acupuncture and homeopathy. Every meta-analysis has come to the same conclusion; the stuff doesn't work. Your examples of taurine, etc. are things that were known to work but the mechanism was poorly understood. This is not the case with acupuncture or homeopathy.

Your example of using a calming blanket for your dog for his anxiety also doesn't mesh. Putting a shirt on a dog doesn't put them at risk of abscess, nerve damage or infection. Homeopathic cures have been linked to severe side effects and long-term damage due to their unregulated nature; Zicam, anyone?

Again, I'm stuck wondering what exactly your point was other than, "You don't know everything, so STFU."
 
Again, I am completely open to any treatment that has an effect but cannot be decided by anecdotes and wishes.

If only the world were as black and white as it sounds like you'd like!

Lots and lots of vets are dispensing glucosamine to mitigate arthritic progression in dogs. Does it work? Studies are (as best I know) mixed.

Some vets really like to use consil to provide a matrix for bone regeneration. Does it work? Maybe. At best.

What's your "science is god" plan of attack for when you're a vet and people are asking you about these and a million other treatments? If you're going to be brutally honest, you won't be able to tell them one way or the other whether they're truly effective. Are you only going to offer treatments where the therapeutic value has been established by 1 independent study? 5 studies? 10? 100? How many?

The more time I spend in a clinic, the more I come to realize that anecdotal evidence -under the guise of experience - plays a huge role in being a GOOD doctor.

I'm not saying that any and all 'therapies' that we might want to put some blind hope in make sense. But I think your statement above is nearly as foolish in its lack of practical, real-world application.
 
We have evidence regarding acupuncture and homeopathy. Every meta-analysis has come to the same conclusion; the stuff doesn't work. Your examples of taurine, etc. are things that were known to work but the mechanism was poorly understood. This is not the case with acupuncture or homeopathy.

So, you are telling me that in 1827 Taurine magically appeared and we magically knew it was a nutritional requirement in some animals. Those horrible vets that didn't make sure cats were getting taurine less than 60 years ago should be ashamed, since it was very obvious that it was beneficial and not harmful. Or maybe they were reading the early studies that didn't show a signficant effect and showed conflicting results, much like lysine does now. For lysine the studies go both ways. And the samples sizes are pretty small, generally with n = 50 or less. What I am saying is that often initial studies are countered with studies down the road. There are times when the anecdotes of breeders are more accurate than our medicine. that has certainly been true with vaccine reactions in cats, greyhounds and anesthesia, and ivermectin in collies. On the opposit end, tripe hasn't been scientifically validated, but many internists will offer it as a viable option for pancreatic insufficiency, even at vet school hospitals. Since the actual evidence isnt' there, and there is are risks associated, it must be the wrong thing to do.

Putting a shirt on a dog doesn't put them at risk of abscess, nerve damage or infection. Homeopathic cures have been linked to severe side effects and long-term damage due to their unregulated nature; Zicam, anyone?

I suppose that our modern medicines haven't been linked to any of these issues? No side effects to vaccines or penicillin? Ivermectin can't hurt anything, neither can bute, right? How about those stainless steel pins put in to splint a limb? I actually have thought of some potential risks of putting a constrictive shirt on an anxious dog; choking hazard, potential for foreign body, potential for tourniquet and consequential anoxic injury (nerve damage, potential abscess, and infection all in one.) Zicam is not homeopathic, at least not according to the tenants of homeopathy. Remember, homeopathic is used, just like the terms 'natural' and 'wholesome' as marketing ploys. I'm not a huge believer in homeopathy, but I don't assume someone calling themselves a dog whisperer makes it true, and I don't assume an advert on a label in genuine. But, as you have pointed out, YMMV.

Again, I'm stuck wondering what exactly your point was other than, "You don't know everything, so STFU."

As usual, you read what you want into what I write, I hope it's rewarding for you. I certainly didn't say STFU, or that YOU don't know everything, but I did say I certainly DON'T know everything. I don't see the world the way you do, and I'm fine with that. My point was that I'm comfortable with the idea that science often lags behind in some areas...that it takes decades to really understand the impact of a given treatment....and even then, in another decade, another study will counter the last study. That evidence is great, until the next study, or the fall out two decades later, when the side effects can actually be observed and documented. We see it all the time with coffee and wine in humans, it isn't unusual in the vet med spectrum. My other point is that very few studies, particularly in vet med, are of sufficient scope to bring sufficient evidence for or against associations, often due to insufficient sample size. To me, medicine is about the art that uses the science, not that it has to be that way for anyone else, including you.
 
Ehh. I'm open to the possibilities of acupuncture and other treatments. Certainly, if an animal is suffering and I've reached the end of my rope as far as what I can offer by way of "traditional" medicine, then I would not dissuade a client from seeking "alternative" treatments if they wanted. I guess I kind of think of it as being better to be open to the idea so that the client can communicate with me what sort of alternative treatments they are thinking of using and we can discuss them rather than them just running off down the street and starting their animals on everything under the sun.

I know it's anectodal, but my dad was in a really bad motorcycle accident when I was younger, one that eventually (20-odd years later) required his lower leg to be amputated. He was in severe pain for those 20 years, especially as you can imagine in the beginning and one of the only things that really helped him was acupuncture. Now my dad is not a "want to believe" kind of guy. In fact he is skeptical about EVERYTHING. so, if he says it helped him, I believe that it helped him because he probably went into it WANTING it to not help so he could say it was all a quack.

Unfortunately the person who worked on him moved away and he couldn't get the same benefits using other acupuncturists that he tried and he eventually gave up looking for them. So I do think that acupuncture, when performed correctly can be beneficial. That being said, my mom has also had acupuncture but didn't feel any relief.

So, I guess my point is: I don't know. But I'm certainly not going to say that what I learn in 4 years of veterinary school is all the medical knowledge in the world. I know that we'd all love to practice evidence based medicine and say "your dog has a 98% chance of being totally fine on this drug" but there will always be that 2% (or 0.0002%) that actually will have a negative outcome from the drug and in certain situations maybe it's better to try something outside the box or without the medicine backing it up because you've got nothing to lose (you've got to get your evidence from somewhere right?!).

Anyways, We do have an acupuncture Vet here at Penn who practices I think twice a week and always has a full schedule. I haven't actually seen her in action though.
 
If only the world were as black and white as it sounds like you'd like!

Lots and lots of vets are dispensing glucosamine to mitigate arthritic progression in dogs. Does it work? Studies are (as best I know) mixed.

What's your "science is god" plan of attack for when you're a vet and people are asking you about these and a million other treatments? If you're going to be brutally honest, you won't be able to tell them one way or the other whether they're truly effective. Are you only going to offer treatments where the therapeutic value has been established by 1 independent study? 5 studies? 10? 100? How many?.

Letitsnow,

Science is god? god does not exist so, science can't exactly be god... But perhaps you mean science is god as in it is my answer to everything. This is a false analogy because nothing is the answer to everything, well all except the number 42. Science obviously isn't the answer to everything and neither is god or magic (alt meds). I will be brutally honest with people when it comes to the health of living things. Will I recommend something with mixed results? perhaps, but it would matter on the specifics of the case. Glucosamine as far as I have read does not work. Do certain doses elicit physiological reactions, yes. they definitely do. Do they alleviate arthritic symptoms, no. unfortunately they do not. But yes, you are right. results are mixed and you hear positive results and negative results. I dont think this is a good example as you hear far more negative results when it comes to glucosamine but we will proceed with it anyhow. In this instance, I would make the client aware of treatment but tell them that it is expensive and there really is limited data that shows that it is efficacious. Give them the facts, let them decide. Perhaps even refer them to legitimate studies and let them weigh out the cost vs benefit.
 
Sumstorm, most of what you posted reads as a form of argument called "tu quoque" (you too), which is considered a logical fallacy.
Pointing out transgressions or shortcomings of mainstream medicine does nothing to advance the argument. No sensible person is arguing that there are zero holes in the widely-accepted scientific knowledge base. Also nobody is arguing that there have not been errors and oversights in the history of science-based medicine. I don't see how pointing out such things (regardless of whether they are valid) advances the argument in any direction at all..

I hate to say it, but the assumption that evidence in one species crosses into others automaticly (or even across breeds) holds the potential for more harm than accupuncture
Again, no reputable skeptical scientists argue that evidence in a single species automatically crosses over to all other species...
But as you (rightly) point out in the following statement (about zoo vets / exotics), practicality necessarily comes into play..

The cross-species potential of a treatment is dependent on all kinds of factors..
Is the finding negative or positive? The limited generalizability (new word) goes both ways.
If something is negative in dogs, and negative in rats, you can't necessarily say it's negative in cats..
If I point to negative studies on acupuncture in dogs, for an opponent to retort by saying "well you can't prove it's ineffective in horses so I will use it in horses because i've heard anecdotes!" would be painfully disingenuous.

Similarly if something is effective in rats and cats, you can't necessarily say it's effective in dogs..

Practicality obviously must come into play in ALL forms of scientific research.
It is reasonable/practical to engage in cross-species experimentation, depending on the danger potential of the treatment, the risk:reward ratio, and other factors based on the history and current knowledge of the treatment..

So how does establishing all of this advance the argument in either direction?
it doesnt.

There was a study in human med that suggested placebo affect accounts for ~20% of cure. If my ill parent or ill pet is part of that 20%, I'm happy it worked. I also read a study recently that showed that a human med's effectiveness didn't have to be far off from placebo for it to go on market.
Here you slip up big time..
Placebo effect in humans is a well-established phenomenon (though many people misunderstand how it works)

Placebo effect in animals is a whole different story..
There's actually no decent evidence to suggests that a placebo effect exists in animals..
The effect in humans is dependent on a number of things, such as learned principles (e.g. aspirin works) and expectations (e.g. i'll feel better in this way if i take a certain pill)..

The placebo effect in veterinary medicine is almost always the OWNER experiencing the placebo effect, rarely if ever the pet.
It is seen mainly with subjective pain criteria..

What complicates things is that human-animal interaction does usually have a small effect on the animal.. Contact with humans can have a calming effect on the animal, though it could also have a negative effect.. The experience of the vet's office could very well trigger a change in the animal, but this is absolutely NOT the placebo effect.

The placebo effect exists in owners, but a true placebo effect in pets has yet to be supported with good research . There have been proposed mechanisms (conditioning for one) by which the placebo effect could operate on animals, but they all are severely lacking in support and additionally most of them theoretically would allow for an equal and opposite "adverse placebo effect".

I encourage you to do more reading on the pet placebo issue.


Lastly, to argue that "science doesn't know everything therefore...", is an argument from ignorance in almost any circumstance.
 
I dont think this is a good example as you hear far more negative results when it comes to glucosamine but we will proceed with it anyhow. In this instance, I would make the client aware of treatment but tell them that it is expensive and there really is limited data that shows that it is efficacious. Give them the facts, let them decide. Perhaps even refer them to legitimate studies and let them weigh out the cost vs benefit.

My point wasn't to specifically debate the value of cosequin.

But ok, if I understand you correctly, you would "make [a] client aware of [glucosamine] but tell them that it is expensive," ineffective, and then leave them to go read scientific studies and make a decision? I'm all about respecting a client's choices, but frankly, many or most of them don't have the ability to make a (sound) decision and you'd be abdicating your responsibility as a doctor. It's your job to inform them; not send them off to read studies containing language most of them have no way to understand.

Your approach seems inconsistent to me.

If you firmly believe that the only therapies you as a vet should offer are those with substantial evidence-based support for their efficacy... I think you're going to be surprised at how many therapies in routine use in vet clinics you're going to have to toss out.
 
I think for the most part you do understand me correctly but have constructed something that you negate in your own statements, ie things are not black and white. I am also not debating the efficacy of joint supplements. I was using glucosamine as an example because it is the most simple approach and the example you used. I have to use a specific example to make a decision about it. It is difficult to make a broad sweeping statement when it comes to treatments. Things are like you said, not black and white. Technically they are black and white but they are never black and white in practice. There are too many variables to control for to be able to draw a line between black and white but that line is most definitely there and I feel it is my duty to draw that line as close to the actual line as possible. Yes, when it comes to something like glucosamine that is probably ineffective I would leave the decision completely up to them, as it is their pet and their money. If it were my clinic, I certainly would not sell the product as it can be picked up at any health food store and i feel profiting from something I believe to be ineffective is immoral. I have worked in veterinary clinics and have watched veterinarians push this stuff on people knowing fully well how expensive it is and knowing it is very questionable as to whether it even works. This would be fulfilling my duty as a doctor, not abdicating it. It is our duty to have clients be able to make an informed decision on the health of their pet and unfortunately this often comes down to a financial decision. It is not our place to just tell them what they should do. We recommend treatments that we deem to be effective because it is our job to know their efficacy. I would point them to a dissection of the studies with some information that I believe to be an accurate depiction of reality. Obviously it would be foolish to have them read things that they may not have the background to understand. A pet receiving joint supplements isn't exactly something that needs to be addressed immediately and the owner should have time and the opportunity to research something themselves if they wish. If it is a client that would rather me handle all decisions on the health of their pet, they would be giving me the authority to do so and I would do my best to act in the best interest of both client and pet. I am not going to force them to research something they have no interest in. How is this inconsistent?

One of the many reasons that people turn to alt meds in the first place is because it is empowering to have a say in either your own health or the health of your pet. They go online and find something saying somewhere that X supplement is a good treatment for Y disorder so they go buy it and start using it thinking it can't hurt. I find this dangerous. If the doctor would take time to explain to them options and have them both be and feel they are an active participant in the healthcare of their pet, they will not turn to literature of questionable origins and endanger the health of their pet as well as cripple their bank accounts.

Nothing I believe is set in stone. The beauty of relying on evidence based medicine is that the evidence changes and becomes better with time. As the evidence changes, so do our minds.
 
There was a study in human med that suggested placebo affect accounts for ~20% of cure. If my ill parent or ill pet is part of that 20%, I'm happy it worked. I also read a study recently that showed that a human med's effectiveness didn't have to be far off from placebo for it to go on market.

I just had to highlight this part of your post. I have difficulty logically reasoning why a placebo (without dangerous side effects) is so bad. Scientifically it is certainly not ethical to claim the drug is working if the placebo effect is strong. However... I wouldn't mind being the victim of a placebo effect if it makes me feel better! I suppose this would have different ethical consequences with animals because the animals don't feel better, just the owners think they're seeing improvement. Just some thoughts...

I stated this earlier, but I would be very curious to read the results of Chinese acupuncture studies. It's been there for many, many years... and I could imagine that it does not necessarily transfer overseas well. The acupuncturist that my family uses attended medical school in the USA, but went to his native China to get certified in acupuncture.
 
I have difficulty logically reasoning why a placebo (without dangerous side effects) is so bad. Scientifically it is certainly not ethical to claim the drug is working if the placebo effect is strong. However... I wouldn't mind being the victim of a placebo effect if it makes me feel better!

The placebo effect is not inherently bad..
But for it to work with ineffective treatments, you need to deceive the patient into believing the treatment works.
Deceiving patients is considered quite unethical.

The placebo effect is actually quite useful in everyday medicine. It provides added effect on top of the effective treatment itself..
When you take an aspirin, the effect you receive is a combination of the physiological effects of the drug and the placebo effect..

And of course the placebo effect portion can be lessened or amplified by manipulating things like the colour or size of the pill, and whether there's a brandname on the pill..

If I had kids, I'd certainly use the placebo effect to "treat" them.
But outside of that, there are ethical standards that prevent deception and conning people out of their money..


I stated this earlier, but I would be very curious to read the results of Chinese acupuncture studies. It's been there for many, many years..
What would be so interesting about reading flawed, doctored and selectively published positive studies on acupuncture?

BTW western medicine is considered much more reputable than "Traditional Chinese Medicine" IN CHINA.
I linked to an Imrie presentation earlier on the history of acupuncture. sounds like you'd be surprised at what you learned..
 
This thread is turning into a whole page of TL;DR :p
 
Sumstorm, most of what you posted reads as a form of argument called "tu quoque" (you too), which is considered a logical fallacy.
Pointing out transgressions or shortcomings of mainstream medicine does nothing to advance the argument. No sensible person is arguing that there are zero holes in the widely-accepted scientific knowledge base. Also nobody is arguing that there have not been errors and oversights in the history of science-based medicine. I don't see how pointing out such things (regardless of whether they are valid) advances the argument in any direction at all.

Let me introduce you to sunstorm. Her posting methodology basically goes: strawman, strawman, strawman, appeal to ignorance, strawman. She basically types a novel without saying much at all.
 
The placebo effect is not inherently bad..
But for it to work with ineffective treatments, you need to deceive the patient into believing the treatment works.
Deceiving patients is considered quite unethical.

New Foundland, I heart you.

As for harm in these "alternative treatments", I wish that having veterinarians explain things rationally to clients would actually have an effect. I'd definitely still try, but I'm a pessimist and I think that people will believe what they want to believe regardless of what doctors tell them. I'm definitely not convinced that's an argument for accommodation, though. Doctors shouldn't knowingly be giving credence to ineffective and potentially dangerous treatments.... I've seen a donkey at death's doorstep after the owner insisted she could cure her colic with reiki energy massage. I would hate to have been the vet that told her "it isn't supported by scientific evidence but go ahead, it probably won't hurt" or, "yeah why not try it, Western medicine doesn't know everything."
 
If I had kids, I'd certainly use the placebo effect to "treat" them.

Oh heck yes. I can't count how many times I gave simethicone to my son when he had classic "growing pains" and wanted "medicine". A bit of simethicone in the middle of the night, he's back to sleep long before any analgesic would actually take effect, and I feel better knowing that in the big picture I'd much rather he take some unnecessary simethicone (which, at that age, he knew as "the medicine").

Call me unethical, but it worked well with him, and in general I think avoiding analgesics when possible/reasonable is a good thing.
 
Wait, why is avoiding analgesics a good thing?
 
Wait, why is avoiding analgesics a good thing?

In the situation I mentioned above, what purpose does it serve?

Sorry, I meant the comment about avoiding them purely in that context. I wouldn't want my child to experience unnecessary pain any more than any other parent, so I shouldn't have said "generally". In the situation I mentioned, though, they aren't going to experience any less discomfort by giving them an analgesic, so why give them something that - while reasonably safe - puts *some* stress on the liver and/or kidneys? On the other hand, since (most) kids grow up getting simethicone practically from day one, they come to recognize that bottle as "medicine that makes me feel better." When they wake up at 2am complaining of what is clearly classic "growing pains" ... simethicone comforts them, they anticipate pain relief, and they calm down and go right back to sleep quickly.

We're getting off track, aren't we? :)
 
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@New Foundland - you read that I was saying a study that disproves an effect in one animals doens't mean it disproves it in another. That wasn't what I said. What I said was that evidence that a given treatment works in X doesn't mean we actually have any evidence of it working in Y...meaning that most vets are still working completly off-label with current treatment in most species. The other part of what I am saying is that science is ever-evolving; ie what we 'knew' 10 years ago is very different than what we 'know' now, which will be different than what we will 'know' in another decade. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't need to pull drugs off the market that have been in general, wide-spread use for over a decade, because the 'evidence' for the 'efficacy' in treatment wouldn't change....except it does; we learn of unknown side effects, or of mixed toxicities, or we find out that it wasn't actually having the result we desired, but instead having a different affect where the side effect is what provided the beneficial effect.

I'm not a proponent of all alternative medicine, but I also don't believe 'western' (parenthesis because that would suggest native american medicine is also western) medicine holds all the answers or is infallible. I am not going to oppose a client that wants to use some alternative therapies amongst 'traditional' vet med, even as I communicate the lack of evidence. I often think it is interesting that we tend to forget that vaccines are, essentially, a form of homeopathy (a highly diluted preperation that causes healthy individuals to display some of the same responses as recovering individuals.) We even forget that the earliest forms of small pox innoculation used the poison of the puss of less virulent cases (strains) to trigger an immune response in healthy individuals...and started out in eastern medicine and was adopted into western medicine via Boylston (and Lady Montague.) I'm not a huge 'lets try X alternative therapy first' but I'm not opposed to discussing alternative therapies with clients that are interested, and creating a plan that will provide checks and balances for their individual animal.

As for whether placebo occurs in dogs, I haven't looked for studies on whether placebo can or can't exist in pets. I know my allergy dog doesn't chew on his feet after an injection of saline (steroids used in the past) and that my car anxiety dog still freaks out without a pill, but now his pill is a capsule of probiotics rather than an anxiolytic. I don't believe that would be true for every dog, but when I'm working in vet med, I'm not treating every dog, I'm treating a specific dog (or fennec fox, or sloth, or serval, or binturong, or horned owl, or....) and often there won't be evidence for any of the treatments that are available, western or eastern. I'm not promoting whole hearted dependence on one form of medicine, eastern, western, southern, northern, native, aboriginal, or otherwise. I'm just saying I'd rather work with my owners than have them trying what they want to on their own, without any info, and without any monitoring. And if it helps in 1/100 patients that tries it, great. If it doesn't in the other 99 or even all 100), because I'm still involved in the process, we can discuss how it isn't working (including testing) and what we should do next.
 
I often think it is interesting that we tend to forget that vaccines are, essentially, a form of homeopathy (a highly diluted preperation that causes healthy individuals to display some of the same responses as recovering individuals.)

That statement is so intellectually dishonest it's nauseating. Taking advantage of the adaptive immune system by exposing it to a killed or attenuated form of a pathogen so that it can develop a heightened immune response if subsequently exposed to the pathogen is not in any way comparable to the antiscientific, illogical tenents of homeopathy.

Dr. Brennan McKenzie, the Skeptvet and preisdent-elect of the Evidence Based Veterinary Medical Association, goes into it in more detail here, but the quick and dirty version of homeopathy is:

1. Homeopathy operates on the Law of Similars, which is to say that it claims that "like cures like." For instance, homeopathic sleeping pills contain caffeine. Your attempt to compare this to vaccines using the same virus that they are immunizing against is a shameless distortion and oversimplification.

2. Homeopaths claim that succussion, or shaking the solution in a series of back and forth and side to side motions, is the key to "energizing" the active ingredient and releasing its magical healing properties which will then be transferred to the water around it.

3. Homeopathic dilutions are so vast that the likelihood of a dose containing even a single molecule of the original purported active ingredient is effectively nil. Take, for example, a commonly-used 6C dilution. This is a dilution of E10-12, or one part ingredient in one trillion parts water, or 0.000000000001%. This is the equivalent of taking one milliliter of active ingredient and diluting it in over 260 million gallons of water.

To put this in perspective, the allowable concentration of arsenic in drinking water by USDA standards is ten to the negative eighth. The major federal body governing the level of public safety for exposure to a potential toxin deems that a solution containing arsenic that is 10,000 times more concentrated than a 6C homeopathic solution and that we drink a much greater volume of on a daily basis, and thus are more likely to ingest a greater amount of the substance it contains, is safe and unlikely to cause harm. What does that say about the likelihood of a solution thousands of times more dilute having any effect on the human body? Not very much.

Ah, but remember! According to homeopathy it doesn't matter that the active ingredient is so diluted, because the water it is diluted in has retained its properties through a magic shaking ritual!

The mechanisms though which homeopathy claims to work are completely scientifically and biologically implausible, and violate everything we currently know about chemistry, physics and the dose-effect curve. Vaccination, however, takes advantage of a well-established and understood physiological process that we can manipulate and reproduce on a reliable basis. The two are not in any way similar unless you play the sort of dishonest dumbing down semantic trick that you engaged in and naturopaths are so very good at.
 
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Interesting thread. While I agree with most of the anti-homeopathic opinions in this thread, I do want to suggest to some of you that it is possible to debate and discuss things on the internet without condescending. Carry on.
 
Interesting thread. While I agree with most of the anti-homeopathic opinions in this thread, I do want to suggest to some of you that it is possible to debate and discuss things on the internet without condescending. Carry on.

Of course it's possible, but it's not always warranted. When someone comes in and outright lies about similarities between a proven safe and effective treatment modality that over the course of history has saved millions of lives and a treatment that is illogical on its face, has been systematically shown to have no effect in numerous controlled trials, and its very use is unethical, let alone having the gall to compare it to the former... I have no compulsion to be polite.

My husband works extensively with a non-profit vaccination group. We see these types of people every day with their distortions and wordplay taking advantage of layman's ignorance in order to push their own agenda. I ran out of patience and sweetness a long time ago, particularly when babies are still dying of Pertussis in my state due to the effectiveness of arguments like sunstorm's above.
 
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Just a reminder to please keep discussions civil and disagreements centered around the point of interest. Whether someone is correct or incorrect is not justification to attack them personally.
 
Don't have time to read the whole thread, but wanted to remind you guys about Doctors of Osteopathy. Med students have this choice and it is the same as getting an MD. There are good, quantifiable aspects to homeopathy. Not to mention chiropractic medicine. And there is a host of good reasons to use homeopathic treatments as "preventative" rather than "reactive" medicine, and certainly a lot of "Western" medicines have toxic effects to our bodies (long term ibuprofen use, aspirin, etc)

That said, you have to know enough to stay away from the real "quackery", but it's not that hard. For example, the poster earlier who said taking ginger vs taking "essence" of ginger.
 
Don't have time to read the whole thread, but wanted to remind you guys about Doctors of Osteopathy. Med students have this choice and it is the same as getting an MD. There are good, quantifiable aspects to homeopathy. Not to mention chiropractic medicine. And there is a host of good reasons to use homeopathic treatments as "preventative" rather than "reactive" medicine, and certainly a lot of "Western" medicines have toxic effects to our bodies (long term ibuprofen use, aspirin, etc)

That said, you have to know enough to stay away from the real "quackery", but it's not that hard. For example, the poster earlier who said taking ginger vs taking "essence" of ginger.

no no no... DO has nothing to do with homeopathy. please see pre med forums.
 
Don't have time to read the whole thread, but wanted to remind you guys about Doctors of Osteopathy. Med students have this choice and it is the same as getting an MD. There are good, quantifiable aspects to homeopathy. Not to mention chiropractic medicine. And there is a host of good reasons to use homeopathic treatments as "preventative" rather than "reactive" medicine, and certainly a lot of "Western" medicines have toxic effects to our bodies (long term ibuprofen use, aspirin, etc)

That said, you have to know enough to stay away from the real "quackery", but it's not that hard. For example, the poster earlier who said taking ginger vs taking "essence" of ginger.
:eek:


...

you trollin' ?
 
Letitsnow,

Science is god? god does not exist so, science can't exactly be god... But perhaps you mean science is god as in it is my answer to everything. This is a false analogy because nothing is the answer to everything, well all except the number 42. Science obviously isn't the answer to everything and neither is god or magic (alt meds). I will be brutally honest with people when it comes to the health of living things. Will I recommend something with mixed results? perhaps, but it would matter on the specifics of the case. Glucosamine as far as I have read does not work. Do certain doses elicit physiological reactions, yes. they definitely do. Do they alleviate arthritic symptoms, no. unfortunately they do not. But yes, you are right. results are mixed and you hear positive results and negative results. I dont think this is a good example as you hear far more negative results when it comes to glucosamine but we will proceed with it anyhow. In this instance, I would make the client aware of treatment but tell them that it is expensive and there really is limited data that shows that it is efficacious. Give them the facts, let them decide. Perhaps even refer them to legitimate studies and let them weigh out the cost vs benefit.

About glucosamine: I think it has been proven as more of a preventative for arthritis rather than a cure. Yeah, once you have arthritis, it will not cure it, and will not help pain.

However, if you start using it at the earliest evidence of pre-arthritis, it will help prevent further degeneration of the cartilege.
 
About glucosamine: I think it has been proven as more of a preventative for arthritis rather than a cure. Yeah, once you have arthritis, it will not cure it, and will not help pain.

However, if you start using it at the earliest evidence of pre-arthritis, it will help prevent further degeneration of the cartilege.

This is a great link discussing the top 10 pet supplements (of course, #1 is glucosamine): http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=12582

Fantastic site for those interested in the merits (or lack thereof) regarding homeopathy, herbals, etc, too.
 
The difference between holistic, homeopathic, and herbal are not that clear, and I don't think the Wikipedia definition is dependable. Where do chiropractic, glucosamine suppliments, or massage fall?

Trolling? What does that even mean, and why do you think I am doing it???

The point I want to make is, an effective vet will use treatments that work to treat an illness and to PREVENT illness. Of course I am aware of superstitious nonsense... I know someone that practices "Raiki" and that is the epitome of crazy superstitious nonsense to me.

However, I also know that things like chriopracting, herbal "remedies", suppliments, and even massage have their place in health care and the total well being of a patient.

Also, it saddens me that a logical debate that is so interesting can get so emotional. I like to read and learn, maybe say my opinion if I have some knowledge of the topic, and maybe even change my opinion if I have been proven wrong, but it IS possible to debate without ridiculing. In fact, if you want to sway people to your line of thought, it helps to not piss them off first.
 
Cite, please.

ETA: Though I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're getting herbal and homeopathy mixed up, since you said you didn't read the whole thread.

I don't have access to the whole article without buying it, but here's the abstract:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0738081X86900751

This is just an example of where alternative medicine could be effective.

I am NOT shoving beliefs down anyone's throat, I'm interested in other scientific people's insights.
 
I am NOT shoving beliefs down anyone's throat, I'm interested in other scientific people's insights.

:thumbup:You should LOVE www.sciencebasedmedicine.org. You could probably spend entire days on that site garnering thoughts from scientific people! (Including professors of medicine at such schools as Yale, Harvard, etc). Look at the topic list on the right-hand side of the main page for a list of articles. :thumbup:

As an example, here's a great article rebutting the use of homeopathy for radiaiton poisoning: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=11919#more-11919
 
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