Hopkins vs. UCSF?

[mgmd]

I've been accepted at both schools for this fall and must give an answer today - any comments, suggestions, advice?
The choice is really hard because

Hopkins rep is better than UCSF's
San Francisco is way better to live in than Baltimore
UCSF is cheaper
The clinical training is more diverse at UCSF

Help?

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[A.D.O.R.]

Hopkins and UCSF are both great schools but it seems as if you want to go to UCSF. Three out of the four things you listed are in favor of UCSF. Let's not forget that UCSF also has a great reputation and you will match well if you go to either school.

In conclusion, reputation is one thing but happiness should also be considered. Where will you be happiest? Be honest with yourself and then go there. I say this because I chose my undergrad based on prestige and reputation. It was an okay experience but I would have been happier and done better elsewhere.

 

[mgmd]

I'm with you on the happiness thing - it's not at all a negligeable factor and I think that my qty of life would be much higher at UCSF... but I'm curious about how other people here view UCSF.
I think that it's interesting that it seems to be so far below people on the E. Coast's radar. Because I'm not sure of where I want to practice and because I'm interested in public/health policy (which is of course better on the East Coast - close to DC), I'm wondering if as a UCSF grad I'd be less visible than a Hopkins grad. In short I'm wondering if I need Hopkins as a calling card or if UCSF speaks just as loudly...

 

[maxheadroom]

UCSF is an outstanding school. Go wherever you'll be happiest. While the Hopkins name gets lots of recognition, the UCSF name is very highly respected. I'd pick UCSF, but that's just me.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by mgmd
Hopkins rep is better than UCSF's

True

San Francisco is way better to live in than Baltimore

true

UCSF is cheaper

Assuming you are a Cali resident, true

The clinical training is more diverse at UCSF

this is where you are flat out wrong. Hopkins clinical training is the best anywhere.

Help?

Go to UCSF. The cost savings is big since you are a Cali resident. The clinical trianing is definitely better at Hopkins, but the location in San Fran beats teh hell out of Baltimore, so overall UCSF has the edge.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by mgmd
but I'm curious about how other people here view UCSF.

Its a great school, but I would argue Hopkins is superior. However, its not so superior as to warrant an extra $100,000. No school, even Harvard, is THAT superior to any state school where the tuition is more like $10k

Although Hopkins as a school is superior to UCSF as a school, the extraneous factors like money and location both strongly favor UCSF.

I think that it's interesting that it seems to be so far below people on the E. Coast's radar.

Thats because UCSF is a state school, and because it does not have an undergrad campus. Therefore its only natural that most people on the east coast are not going to be familiar with it.

Because I'm not sure of where I want to practice and because I'm interested in public/health policy (which is of course better on the East Coast - close to DC), I'm wondering if as a UCSF grad I'd be less visible than a Hopkins grad. In short I'm wondering if I need Hopkins as a calling card or if UCSF speaks just as loudly...

UCSF public health does not speak "just as loudly" as Hopkins public health. Hopkins public health is the best in the world.

That being said, you can go into public health from any school with a public health dept, whether its Howard or Harvard.

 

[mgmd]

for general info - I've decided on UCSF - quality of life ended up being more decisive than the small difference in reputation. Thanks a bunch to all for your input.

Mac Guyver -
With regards to clinical training I would say that UCSF is better in the sense that it's more diverse with 3 very different health care delivery systems (not counting all the HMOs, clinics, and rural med clinics that you can do electives in) that all students rotate through - the county hospital (the only level one trauma center in the county), the VA (one of the country's larger vet's facilities), and Moffit-Long with all the sub-specialists, home of the ultra-rare disease. I would say that's a plus compared to JH's single main private hospital. It's also the only med school in SF so there's no competition for patients in comparison to Baltimore where the U of Maryland gets the city's hospital. Finally the patients themselves are from extremely diverse backgrounds which is again not the case in Baltimore which in my limited experience was pretty segregated between poor Blacks and affluent Whites with a few Latinos in between neighborhoods.

Now you if you're referring to something other than the above described diversity of clinical experience when you're speaking of clinical training, I'm definitely interested in what that might be. UCSF gets a bad rap from some people trained on the East Coast for being soft - is that it?

 

[A.D.O.R.]

I think you made a great decision. Everyone I met at UCSF seemed very happy and they have been very helpful so far. My only concern is the state budget crisis. Even if the school costs an extra couple thousand next year, it's still cheaper than a lot of other schools. By the way, are you going on the pre-orientation camping trip at the end of the month?

 

[mgmd]

I know the budget situation does suck but they've actually managed to not have to cut out much at all (there's that budget update link on ucsf's home page with details). Even with the price increase, Hopkins was going to be out of sight expensive for me (I would have needed to find 30,000 in unsub's loans vs the 10,000 I'll take out for UCSF/year) - that's also because Hopkins never considers you an indpdt student even when you're a washed up almost 29 year-old (yikes - how'd that happen! dammit!) like me.

I'm seriously thinking about the camping trip but I haven't signed up for it yet, I'm going to give a call tomorrow to see if there's still room.

Otherwise if you're in the city and want to hang out before then, let me know and we can take this offline - (btw, nice to meet you!)

 

[....]

Cool Cool.

But I have to disagree with the USnews rankings *****....



"However, its not so superior as to warrant an extra $100,000. No school, even Harvard, is THAT superior to any state school where the tuition is more like $10k"

I think harvard cannot beat UCSF for the money but ANY STATE SCHOOL? Or even 80% of state schools...

I mean you dont think that graduating from harvard over say...my sexy state school UF...will be worth a 100,000 bucks or double, or triple....not if your going into IM or something, but going to a harvard or hopkins HAS to open doors that we dont even know exist untill we go to a school like that. Certianly a surgeon can increase his salary 50K a year by coming from harvard over a decnt state school.

 

[chef]

congrats on your decision. go where you'll be happy.

if i were u tho i would've picked hopkins w/o a question, esp if public health/policy was my interest. like others said hopkins has #1 public health school and many med students get mph degree w/ 1 additional yr of training after 2nd yr.

plus if u will do any sort of international policy, or intend to work w/ policymakers&MDs from overseas they'll definitely consider hopkins name much higher than ucsf.

but at the end it's ultimately up to you the individual, not the school that'll make the diff. , and ucsf is a GREAT place. best of luck.

 

[mgmd]

I know what you're saying about Hopkins' school of public health - it's really fabulous, especially w/ regards to what I'm interested in, and UCSF has nothing to offer in real comparison on that front (an MPH at Berkeley is fine if you want to be laughed at in DC). That was part of the really difficult nature of this decision.

So what I'm thinking is that I'll take a year off between 3rd and 4th (apparently the best time to do it because you have some clin exposure already) to do my MPH on the e coast - Hopkins or Harvard if I'm lucky enough to get in - and I'll get my quality public health/ public policy time in then without having to suffer through 5 years in Baltimore while paying for tuition through my painfully convoluted sinuses...

That's the plan at this point, hopefully it's the right one.

 

[Dr. Xavier]

Calif. rules.

 

[nylee]

wait-a-minute...

who said that Baltimore was that crappy of a place to live??? I've been in Baltimore for the past five years for undergrad and now for med, but I don't think it's that bad. PLUS, none of my classmates have been complaining.

SF may be the "cooler" and "posher" place to live, but I wouldn't discount Baltimore at all. It's close to D.C., New York, Atlantic City, and east coast sites...

What I would be complaining about is the EXORBITANT cost of living in SF--I don't understand how you think that taking out some loans for Hopkins would differ that much from "hanging out" in an expensive city, paying an arm and a leg for an apartment, for meals, for drinks...etc. etc.

Plus, if you LOVE frisco so much, wouldn't it be worth going to Hopkins and almost GUARANTEE a residency in SF or Stanford?

yeah, I might be coming from a biased point of view and of course I'm a sucker for Hopkins, but aside from the obvious Public Health argument that Hopkins is LOADS better than SF, considering many other points, I think Hopkins would have been a better investment. It's too bad it's too late.

 

[mgmd]

Hey nylee,

(is that a streak of that famous JH competitiveness coming out? )
Sorry, didn't mean to offend! I really tore my hair out over this decision and it makes sense for me - I'm not judging anyone here.

Couple of clarifications:

You wrote: "who said that Baltimore was that crappy of a place to live??? I've been in Baltimore for the past five years for undergrad and now for med, but I don't think it's that bad. PLUS, none of my classmates have been complaining."

Baltimore seemed like a crappy place to live for me for a couple of reasons

#1 I don't feel like participating excessively in the fossil fuel economy (and I don't have the extra money lying around) so I don't own a car. That means I need to live somewhere (i.e. in town) where I can shop without having to drive and I can walk or take public transportation to school and to go out. That felt pretty much impossible unless I lived in the tiny cinderblock dorms in Reed Hall which at age 29 I feel too old to do. SF's public transport is excellent and it's easy to walk everywhere. I also really like living in urban setting where you get to meet your neighbors who might do something completely different from you - or at least see them.

#2 I didn't feel safe walking around in several areas - despite the fact that it was broad daylight. People looked at me like I didn't belong and I didn't like that. In certain areas not a single car had a hubcap on it. I really didn't feel safe - I would get tired of having to watch my back all the time. I walk around alone at night in SF and don't worry about it.

#3 I get the impression that the city is very segregated compared to SF, really divided into poor Black neighborhoods and affluent White neighborhoods. As a middle class mixed race woman with a South Asian boyfriend I didn't really have the impression that I fit in anywhere in the urban community.

Now all the above things make Baltimore unattractive to me - it's a question of life-style. There are some things I do not feel like sacrificing for the sake of getting a degree from the school with the slightly better reputation.

You wrote "SF may be the "cooler" and "posher" place to live, but I wouldn't discount Baltimore at all. It's close to D.C., New York, Atlantic City, and east coast sites..."

I never called SF cooler or posher, I wouldn't describe it like that if given the choice... I don't think it's that posh at all (thank god, otherwise it wouldn't be that fun), in fact GQ mag says that it's the city with the worst dressed women in the US
I agree that the NE urban concentration is really seductive - it was a hard choice I tell you - but in the end I fgured that it was my daily life that mattered more, I didn't think that I was going to have that much time to go out during school and I figured my vacations would probably be spent elsewhere.

You wrote "What I would be complaining about is the EXORBITANT cost of living in SF--I don't understand how you think that taking out some loans for Hopkins would differ that much from "hanging out" in an expensive city, paying an arm and a leg for an apartment, for meals, for drinks...etc. etc."

If you had read my previous message you would have noticed that I spoke about the relative cost of the 2 schools - that includes everything (tuition, housing, food, etc). Hopkins' first year budget as determined by fin aid is 51,000, UCSF's is 33,000, including everything, with $925/month rent as estimated by the financial aid office (which an excessive estimate, I'm currently paying $730 in rent for a nice place vs Hopkins' budgeted estimate of less than $400/month in rent which won't get you much except for a dorm room).


You wrote "Plus, if you LOVE frisco so much, wouldn't it be worth going to Hopkins and almost GUARANTEE a residency in SF or Stanford?"

Ummm, I don't remember saying I LOVE (I'm not that big on capitals myself) Frisco - and please, don't call it Frisco - and Stanford is in Palo Alto not in SF but regardless your argument doesn't hold up. 2003 residency match lists: Hopkins placed 5 people at UCSF (with close to half of JH's grads staying at Hopkins, it's an incredibly in-bred place), UCSF placed 35 of its grads at UCSF (and 3 at Hopkins, including one at the Wilmer eye institute, one of the most coveted residencies around, so be careful dissing UCSF, one of your residents may have graduated from there).

Don't assume I didn't think hard about this decision.

Best of luck at Hopkins.

 

[A.D.O.R.]

mgmd,

great response to nylee's post. i was going to reply but i figured i needed some time to cool off otherwise it would have been unnecessarily nasty. "almost GUARANTEE a residency in SF or Stanford?" someone is full of himself. anyway, i will be in San Francisco on the 23rd so let me know if you want to hang out before the camping trip.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by mgmd
#3 I get the impression that the city is very segregated compared to SF, really divided into poor Black neighborhoods and affluent White neighborhoods. As a middle class mixed race woman with a South Asian boyfriend I didn't really have the impression that I fit in anywhere in the urban community.

Yeah you're right it is segregated, just like its segregated in every city in the country. Even SF is not all that integrated. That being said, there are well-off black communities in the suburbs. I would argue that Baltimore has both more rich and more poor black people than the SF bay area, simply because there are so many more black folks living in the Bmore area (the area is close to 80% african american)

2003 residency match lists: Hopkins placed 5 people at UCSF (with close to half of JH's grads staying at Hopkins, it's an incredibly in-bred place), UCSF placed 35 of its grads at UCSF (and 3 at Hopkins, including one at the Wilmer eye institute, one of the most coveted residencies around, so be careful dissing UCSF, one of your residents may have graduated from there).

Well to be fair though part of the reason UCSF grads dont stay at UCSF is because the best residency positions tend to be in other areas. As a whole the UCSF medical system is not as highly regarded as Hopkins, Harvard, Mayo, or others for residency training.

Thats a point worth mentioning because it helps to explain why so many Hopkins grads choose to stay at Hopkins for residency, and partially explains why UCSF grads tend to go to other hospitals for residency.

You are absolutely right about Baltimore as a whole, its a very crappy area and is the reason I did not apply to Hopkins. However, the crappy area that Baltimore is in is a plus to medical training. When 99% of the population is dirt poor, unemployed, has no medical insurance, and is desperate for medical care, that opens up possibilities for med student/resident training. In richer areas, when people go to the hospital they want to be treated by the head attending, not a lowly med student. In Baltimore, there is not nearly as much of a stigma attached to med students doing the procedures and guiding most of the patient care.

 

[maxheadroom]

The most important thing is where you will be happiest. When considering surgical residencies, I was very excited to interview at UCSF, but didn't even apply to Hopkins. Why?

1. Location. I love San Francisco. I loathe Baltimore. Come on, the Giants or the Orioles? No contest.

2. While UCSF doesn't have the bling-bling rep of Hopkins as one of the three pillars of medicine (Harvard, Hopkins, and Mayo), it is definitely a powerhouse. While I didn't focus on the other services, UCSF's surgical residency is definitely a top tier program, in league with MGH, Brig, Hopkins, and Mayo. If you look at the young hotshots in academic surgery today, there's a huge UCSF crowd.

3. While Hopkins has a big name within medicine, not many patients really know the JHU name. They all know Harvard and Mayo, and while they might have heard the name Hopkins, they really don't have a big notion in their head.

4. When in doubt with any decison between the super-big name and a very acceptable name, only pick the super-big name against your desire if you just can't live with anything but the very best (as defined by some other group).

Message: If UCSF is what's best for you, then someone will thank you for freeing up a spot on Hopkins' waiting list.

 

[nylee]

I don't know what kind of patients you've been around, but I've been in Korea this past summer doing research in their best hospital and everyone and their mother knew what Johns Hopkins was.

That being said, nobody gave a **** about UCSF...



well...it probably wasn't that bad.... I really do respect UCSF...I have a few friends that go there right now (one who chose UCSF over Hopkins) and I think that UCSF students are some of the BRIGHTEST in the country (especially having competed against the thousands of other californians). UCSF is probably one of the most coveted UC schools to get into (with UCLA) for CA residents.

I didn't mean to come off offensive to UCSF-supporters...and I realize that mgmd did have a hard time deciding. I guess I've kind of grown to love Baltimore so I take personal offense to people that diss the city just because the urban population is a little "different" from what they're used to. Baltimore however, does have a subway system that many students use and there are shuttles and buses available as well. I'm living in a 4-bedroom, 4-story rowhouse that's been newly renovated for only $300 a month...and it's within walking distance to school. Of course, my financial package may be different from other people so it was more attractive for me to stay at Hopkins, but I feel that I'm saving a lot of money here because the cost of living is much lower.

Anyways, enough of all that...congrats on getting into BOTH schools and having had to make such a decision, mgmd.

Good luck!

BTW, what's wrong with "Frisco"? I learned that term from a person from "SO-Cal"...

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Originally posted by mgmd

Baltimore seemed like a crappy place to live for me for a couple of reasons

#1 I don't feel like participating excessively in the fossil fuel economy (and I don't have the extra money lying around) so I don't own a car. That means I need to live somewhere (i.e. in town) where I can shop without having to drive and I can walk or take public transportation to school and to go out. That felt pretty much impossible unless I lived in the tiny cinderblock dorms in Reed Hall which at age 29 I feel too old to do. SF's public transport is excellent and it's easy to walk everywhere. I also really like living in urban setting where you get to meet your neighbors who might do something completely different from you - or at least see them.

#2 I didn't feel safe walking around in several areas - despite the fact that it was broad daylight. People looked at me like I didn't belong and I didn't like that. In certain areas not a single car had a hubcap on it. I really didn't feel safe - I would get tired of having to watch my back all the time. I walk around alone at night in SF and don't worry about it.

#3 I get the impression that the city is very segregated compared to SF, really divided into poor Black neighborhoods and affluent White neighborhoods. As a middle class mixed race woman with a South Asian boyfriend I didn't really have the impression that I fit in anywhere in the urban community.

I live in Canton, which is a little pricier than some of Baltimore's neighborhoods but so far, completely worth it. On my street, which is a tiny little alley street with maybe 15 rowhouses, the population crosses all age, race, class, sexual orientation, and professional boundaries. From your description, you would fit in well. Some of my neighbors have been there a few years; others have lived there 40 or 60 years. I haven't used my car in a week and a half (having been here three weeks) and am considering getting rid of it. I am directly linked by a city bus line to Hopkins, but others who live north of the hospital can get a ride on the Hopkins shuttle. It's true that Baltimore does have some very bad neighborhoods, and that the hospital is in one of them, but I can't imagine that you feel safe in EVERY San Francisco neighborhood by yourself at night. In my neighborhood, I go running by myself in the early evenings, and my husband and I walk to restaurants at night.

All that having been said, I probably would have made the same choice you did, although I don't have much of an interest in public health. However, I would hate for someone reading this thread to write off Baltimore for the usual stereotypes and wrong reasons. Good luck at UCSF.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by maxheadroom
3. While Hopkins has a big name within medicine, not many patients really know the JHU name. They all know Harvard and Mayo, and while they might have heard the name Hopkins, they really don't have a big notion in their head.

Thats a stupid standard to go by. If you asked Joe Blow public on the street what the best medical school in California is, UCSF wouldnt even make the top 3 in its own state! People are MUCH more familiar with Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA than they are with UCSF. Does that mean that UCLA and Stanford are better than UCSF in medicine? Absolutley not. Joe Public has no clue about medical schools.

Nationwide, if you asked Joe Public what the best/most famous med schools are, this is the list they would come up with:

1. Harvard
2. Yale
3. Princeton
4. Columbia
5. Cornell
6. Dartmouth
7. Brown
8. Stanford
9. MIT
10. Berkeley

Notice a trend here? First off, some of the schools on that list DONT EVEN HAVE medical schools. Secondly, the general public shows a strong bias towards the Ivy League. If you conducted a nationwide survey, I bet 80% of people would say that Harvard's engineering program is better than Cal Techs. We all know thats a sham.

You get my drift--the general public HAS NO CLUE about which med schools are the best. Their opinion is strongly biased by undergrad reputation and Ivy League status. I bet if you asked people nationwide, only 10% of so even know that UCSF has a medical school or have ever heard of UCSF at all!
[/QUOTE]

 

[doepug]

Hopkins and UCSF are both fantastic schools, and the bottom line is that you can't go wrong by choosing one over the other.

That being said, my admittedly biased experience leads me to say that I feel Hopkins is, overall, a better school. Perhaps the differences are marginal, but having spent 4 years at Hopkins, I wouldn't have gone anywhere else.

I'm tired of hearing people use Baltimore as an excuse for not going to Hopkins. Unless you have a spouse w/a job and/or significant family reasons for not living in Baltimore, it's not a bad place to be. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for not wanting to go to School X, but summarily dismissing Hopkins because Baltimore is a slum/trashy/whatever, is BS.

Best of luck at UCSF -- it truly is an excellent school.

-doepug

 

[maxheadroom]

MacGyver,

I think you didn't understand the sentiment of my point three, as you rearticulated it. If you ask most of your patients, "What's the best medical school?" very few of them will mention JHU (as you stated). The lay public just doesn't know the name very well. It's similar for WashU. Both are excellent schools with fantastic clinical and basic science programs, but they just don't have the name recognition within the general public. People will always refer to Mayo (they don't know that it's a new school), Harvard, Yale, and the like. My point is, if you want to impress patients with big name credentials, Hopkins won't always come through. Top three school, yes, anyone in medicine will gladly agree. I didn't intend to intimate that people would know UCSF any better.

To you Hopkins kids, I've been to Baltimore. It's not Hell on Earth, but I just didn't like the city. Overall, I'm not a big fan of the East coast. Baltimore seems to have all the problems of the East without the big benefits that you get in NYC, Boston, DC, or Phillie (which I'm not too fond of, either). I greatly prefer the West coast. I'd kill to practice in SF, Portland, or Seattle. But residency first, eh?

 

[mgmd]

Originally posted by doepug

I'm tired of hearing people use Baltimore as an excuse for not going to Hopkins. Unless you have a spouse w/a job and/or significant family reasons for not living in Baltimore, it's not a bad place to be. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for not wanting to go to School X, but summarily dismissing Hopkins because Baltimore is a slum/trashy/whatever, is BS.

Best of luck at UCSF -- it truly is an excellent school.

Or unless you have a choice with a really nice place to be....

Once again I didn't summarily dismiss it - I weighed pros and cons, I spoke to people who had lived there who placed a similar value on quality of life as I do, I spoke to Hopkins grads (one of whom said they weren't sure it was worth the money and who stated that they never had the opportunity to meet anyone outside the school - and yes this person is a well-adjusted normal human being) and concluded that the city didn't have enough to offer me.

I also took into consideration that UCSF has more non-traditional -aka older- students than Hopkins, and decided that it would be in my interest to have people around who had had other life exp. than just college, if only because I would not feel like the odd-one out.

There are people who perform better in closed environments, others who need outside stimulation to do their best - I happen to be of the latter category and I chose the school in the city that would offer me the most outside stimulation.

Thanks for your wishes.

 

[mgmd]

Originally posted by MacGyver
Well to be fair though part of the reason UCSF grads dont stay at UCSF is because the best residency positions tend to be in other areas. As a whole the UCSF medical system is not as highly regarded as Hopkins, Harvard, Mayo, or others for residency training.

Thats a point worth mentioning because it helps to explain why so many Hopkins grads choose to stay at Hopkins for residency, and partially explains why UCSF grads tend to go to other hospitals for residency.

OK - I don't really understand your reasoning here. You state that UCSF grads go to "better" residency prgms elsewhere - meaning that they can, they are qualified enough and they are recognized as such by residency prgm directors - right? So the med school produces top notch graduates who can go where they want - which is borne out by the numbers by the way (2003 res matches):

Brig + Women's: 5 UCSF grads, 4 Hopkins grads
Mass Gen: 4 UCSF grads, 3 Hopkins grads
Mayo: 2 UCSF grads, 1 Hopkins grad

(and if you remember that 5 JH grads ended up at UCSF, you'll note that they don't seem to find UCSF that repulsive...)

So I guess the res directors at Harvard and Hopkins view UCSF medical system training more highly than you do...

I would argue that one of the reasons that Hopkins grads tend to stay at Hopkins because there is a lot of pressure for them to do so - one Hopkins grad who I talked to said that the dean of students actively discouraged students from doing rotations away, saying "why should you want to, you're at the best hospital in the world!" - and that the UCSF grads tend to end up all over, including the best residency prgms in the country, because UCSF grads tend to have very different interests that they follow through on.

Originally posted by MacGyver
However, the crappy area that Baltimore is in is a plus to medical training. When 99% of the population is dirt poor, unemployed, has no medical insurance, and is desperate for medical care, that opens up possibilities for med student/resident training. In richer areas, when people go to the hospital they want to be treated by the head attending, not a lowly med student. In Baltimore, there is not nearly as much of a stigma attached to med students doing the procedures and guiding most of the patient care.

I hope you're aware how terrible that sounds- i.e. "we have all this really poor people who have no choice, so we can use them as practice material".
But once again/ I'll remind you that UCSF has SFGenHosp, the only county hospital and it doesn't compete with another med school like Hopkins does with the U of Maryland. And don't think that SF doesn't have its poor - ever hear of the homelessness problem here?

In any case, thanks for keeping up this conversation, it's an interesting one - it would just be nice if you took into account my responses to your comments.

 

[mgmd]

Originally posted by VienneseWaltz
I live in Canton, which is a little pricier than some of Baltimore's neighborhoods but so far, completely worth it. On my street, which is a tiny little alley street with maybe 15 rowhouses, the population crosses all age, race, class, sexual orientation, and professional boundaries. From your description, you would fit in well. Some of my neighbors have been there a few years; others have lived there 40 or 60 years. I haven't used my car in a week and a half (having been here three weeks) and am considering getting rid of it. I am directly linked by a city bus line to Hopkins, but others who live north of the hospital can get a ride on the Hopkins shuttle. It's true that Baltimore does have some very bad neighborhoods, and that the hospital is in one of them, but I can't imagine that you feel safe in EVERY San Francisco neighborhood by yourself at night. In my neighborhood, I go running by myself in the early evenings, and my husband and I walk to restaurants at night.

All that having been said, I probably would have made the same choice you did, although I don't have much of an interest in public health. However, I would hate for someone reading this thread to write off Baltimore for the usual stereotypes and wrong reasons. Good luck at UCSF.

OK, next time I'm in Baltimore I'll check Canton out - it does sound nice. Who knows maybe I'll try to do a rotation at Hopkins and have the opportunity to flesh out my impressions of the city.
It's just a relative thing. I do feel safe in the vast majority of SF's neighborhoods at night including most parts of the tenderloin. It's mostly because so many people walk so there's always someone around. It's also nice that I won't have to worry about walking home from the medical center or from the county hospital at night.
Best of luck to you too.

 

[souljah1]

mgmd..You seem to have spent a lot of time to make your decision. Your replies to some of the posts on this thread made me smile. I already know that you will have a great time here in San Francisco. Both programs are fantastic, and I am glad that you went with happiness in every day activities as a deciding factor. I think that creates avenues for greater focus and leads to persuits that will be greater in purpose. Going to a great school while being depressed about your surroundings (or lack thereof) can create a recipe for mindsets that don't allow you to achieve as greatly as you would if you were being stimulated in more progressive means by your environment. I'm not saying that Baltimore would be that kind of place for you. I am saying that I agree strongly with going where you feel your quality of life would be greatest. Our hospitals are fantastic and I gaurantee that you'll receive an excellent education. I'm not going to bash other schools b/c I think that bashing other schools reeks of immaturity and lack of insight. What has really made me feel good about my decision to train at UCSF (time and time again) has been my classmates. I have never been a part of such an amazingly intelligent and compassionate group of people in my life. Yes, we have many non-traditional students (I'm one), but I don't think age has all that much to do with the intelligence and compassion. It definitely adds to the diversity of interests, but I think that the admissions committee tries to the best of their ability to select students who are defined by empathy, focus, balance, intelligence, and kindness. Saying that, I'm not that sure why they selected me Anyway, be excited. PM me if you want to talk or anything. I'll give you my email and phone number in case you have any questions are want to hear different perspectives.

Doepug..Congratulations on your 4 years. Your posts on this board have always been very helpful, encouraging, and positive. Best of luck in your persuits. For me, however, I wouldn't want to be any other place than UCSF Sincerely, I wish you the best.

Nylee..I hope you had a great time in Korea realizing that 'everyone and their mother' knew about JHU. I don't understand what that has to do with anything, though. 'Nobody gave a **** about UCSF'? I guess I went to the wrong school then. Perhaps I should have traveled around the world talking to hospital employees and patients in order to ask their opinion for the best medical school. I found your post to be very immature. For advancing in medicine (if you choose to do so), what really matters is your talent, your aptitude, etc. Where you trained directly has an impact on fostering growth in those areas, but I don't think the layperson's opinion (Korean mothers included) makes a big difference when I think about whether or not I'll be successful in my achieving my goals. Residency directors' opinions will matter, but whether or not their mother's opinions matter..I really don't care. Again, if hearing that everyone and their mother knows about JHU makes you feel like you are attending the proper school for you, I am glad. For me, I like to surround myself with people who don't get off with that sort of thing. Best of luck.

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Originally posted by souljah1

Nylee..I hope you had a great time in Korea realizing that 'everyone and their mother' knew about JHU. I don't understand what that has to do with anything, though. 'Nobody gave a **** about UCSF'? I guess I went to the wrong school then.

Hang on, there. Nylee wasn't saying anything about UCSF. Nylee's post was in response to another post implying that the Hopkins name recognition is only found within medicine. I, too, am tired of hearing the mind-bogglingly stupid argument that Hopkins's reputation is somehow diminished b/c it supposedly is not known outside of medicine. (1) Who cares if Hopkins were not as well known outside medicine? We're going INTO medicine. (2) Anyway, it isn't true. I've lost track of the number of people outside medicine who have responded with the equivalent of "hot damn!" when they find out that I'm starting med school at Hopkins. Several people have even assumed that it was ranked above Harvard (which, in my opinion, it should be ). The general public deserves a little more credit on this one.

 

[ComplexPuzzle]

here's my thoughts...i really cant comment on the quality of schools...i believe both are exceptional schools that afford their students the wonderful opportunity to become excellent physicians...however i can comment on baltimore itself...i am a baltimore native and frankly i believe the city is sorely lacking...i just dont find there to be much going on in the city...by that i mean it is not easy to find things to do...one must usually search and search hard...in addition...baltimore is a very spread out city...it is difficult to get from one place to another without your own transportation...overall i just dont get that "city" feeling from bmore...there are nice areas and yes canton is one of them but its sorta a blah city...everyone is always saying how close you are to philly, DC or (insert some other city name here)...however you are close (yes) but how often are you going to want to make the hour, two hour and three hour drive to get check out these cities...especially while doing med school...if you are working continuously and rarely go out to explore or hang out...then bmore is a cool (well i guess ok) city...however if you are someone who needs to be surrounded by lots and lots of different goings-ons then its not the place to be...i dislike bmore so much so that i refrained from applying to either JHU or UMD (my own state school with super cheap tuition)...its just not a place i want to be for four more yrs of my life

 

[A.D.O.R.]

VienneseWaltz,

Just to refresh your memory:

maxheadroom said "3. While Hopkins has a big name within medicine, not many patients really know the JHU name. They all know Harvard and Mayo, and while they might have heard the name Hopkins, they really don't have a big notion in their head."

nylee repsonded with "I don't know what kind of patients you've been around, but I've been in Korea this past summer doing research in their best hospital and everyone and their mother knew what Johns Hopkins was.

That being said, nobody gave a **** about UCSF..."

Obviously the last part of his statement was unnecessary and offensive and this prompted souljah1's response. Also, how did nylee know no one in that particular setting "gave a **** about UCSF?" Did nylee first tell people he went to Hopkins and then ask them "Would you love me less if I went to UCSF?"

Just admit that some of you Hopkins people are elitists and we can all go away from here with clear consciences. I've tried to be civil but I'll just say it, I think nylee and some others are upset that people are willing to choose a state school over their pricey private one. I wonder how happy you are at Hopkins nylee? Do you really love the school or the reputation? It should be obvious that I don't really care if everyone or only a select few know about my school. I haven't spent a day on campus and I already love it.

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Fair enough, ADOR, but nylee followed that with a laughing smilie, which I believe softens the statement considerably. The point is the same, however, that Hopkins DOES have name recognition outside medicine, and even if you believe otherwise, you can't argue that UCSF is any better known.

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Originally posted by A.D.O.R.

I've tried to be civil but I'll just say it, I think nylee and some others are upset that people are willing to choose a state school over their pricey private one.

Actually, we just get tired of hearing Hopkins criticized for bogus reasons. I hear things like "Baltimore sucks" and "no one knows Hopkins outside medicine" and other ignorant statements, and I'd rather correct them politely than leave them hanging. There are plenty of good reasons to pick UCSF/San Fran over Hopkins/B-more, but not all of the reasons cited here were accurate. We spoke up.

Why would you assume that anyone cares whether someone else has picked a state school or not? That doesn't even make any sense. Anyway, if you recall, I said I would probably have done the same as the OP had I the same decision.

 

[mgmd]

OK this has been really insightful and interesting and I'm glad that so many people felt compelled enough to contribute to the discussion.

Hey, I think that it's incredibly kickass that we all got into these great schools, that we got into med school at all - remember when we were just applying and how scared we were that we wouldn't even get into the bottom tier (you don't remember that? Well, let me tell you it was cold-night-sweats scary, it was bowel-looseningly horrific)? So I'd like to propose a great big group hug and a couple of high fives to go around.

So, thanks to all for your great input and to chef, maxhr, doepug, and souljah1 (and anyone else who offered it) thanks bunches for your support.

 

[nylee]

Hmm...I think some people on SDN are a little uptight!

VW, thanks for your support...

I suggest that you guys read the entire post and not quote parts out of context...

you guys know better than that!

I was only kidding about UCSF's reputation in Korea...geez...didn't you read the rest of my post????

seriously, I don't understand you guys. SO NEGATIVE!

LIGHTEN UP!!

with that, I agree with mgmd...we're all going to be colleagues in medicine soon...let's show some collegiality!

 

[UCSBMed1]

Originally posted by nylee
Hmm...I think some people on SDN are a little uptight!

VW, thanks for your support...

I suggest that you guys read the entire post and not quote parts out of context...

you guys know better than that!

I was only kidding about UCSF's reputation in Korea...geez...didn't you read the rest of my post????

seriously, I don't understand you guys. SO NEGATIVE!

LIGHTEN UP!!

with that, I agree with mgmd...we're all going to be colleagues in medicine soon...let's show some collegiality!

Well you are pretty dumb if you think UCSF people aren't going to react if you tell them that people in Korea (like they're some sort of experts anyway) don't give a crap about SF. I would be mad too if you insulted my school.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by mgmd

Brig + Women's: 5 UCSF grads, 4 Hopkins grads
Mass Gen: 4 UCSF grads, 3 Hopkins grads
Mayo: 2 UCSF grads, 1 Hopkins grad

Why do you post selective stats?

If you are going to do that, at least be fair and look at both residency match lists as a whole.

I've looked at both and its clear to me that Hopkins has the superior match list overall.

(and if you remember that 5 JH grads ended up at UCSF, you'll note that they don't seem to find UCSF that repulsive...)

Yeah but how many UCSF grads chose Hopkins hospital? That argument works against you. If UCSF hospitals were so good, then why leave at all?

So I guess the res directors at Harvard and Hopkins view UCSF medical system training more highly than you do...

I'm talking about UCSF RELATIVE to Hopkins, which is what this whole thread is about. Obviously you cant make statements like these in a vacuum.

On average, I guarantee you that PDs have a higher view of Hopkins grads than UCSF grads. Is it a HUGE difference? No, but there is a difference.

I would argue that one of the reasons that Hopkins grads tend to stay at Hopkins because there is a lot of pressure for them to do so - one Hopkins grad who I talked to said that the dean of students actively discouraged students from doing rotations away, saying "why should you want to, you're at the best hospital in the world!" -

I seriously doubt the dean said that. At any rate, even if he did who cares? Are you honestly saying that Hopkins grads cant make their own choices and that they are stiff-armed into staying at JHU? I find that claim extremely dubious.

and that the UCSF grads tend to end up all over, including the best residency prgms in the country, because UCSF grads tend to have very different interests that they follow through on.

I dont buy that at all. Most UCSF students are Cali residents, and most of them would have stronger ties to San Fran than they would any other single area on average. The fact that they leave and go elsewhere is indicative of their choice based on clinical training grounds.

After all, you say Baltimore sucks. If Baltimore sucks and Hopkins hospital is no different than UCSF or even subpar, then they must be making stupid decisions to do residency at Hopkins.

But once again/ I'll remind you that UCSF has SFGenHosp, the only county hospital and it doesn't compete with another med school like Hopkins does with the U of Maryland.

By your logic, Penn must be a subpar school because there are 5 medical schools in Philly.

Hopkins does NOT compete with Maryland. They are two totally separate medical systems.

Theres no such thing as a Baltimore County Hospital. There's Howard County Hospital which has exclusive ties with Hopkins.

UMaryland students stick to the UMaryland medical center.

And don't think that SF doesn't have its poor - ever hear of the homelessness problem here?

I'm willing to guarantee you that East Baltimore where Hopkins is located has a substantially higher poverty rate than the worst area in San Fran.

 

[Rapid Decomposition]

Originally posted by mgmd
Hey, I think that it's incredibly kickass that we all got into these great schools, that we got into med school at all - remember when we were just applying and how scared we were that we wouldn't even get into the bottom tier (you don't remember that? Well, let me tell you it was cold-night-sweats scary, it was bowel-looseningly horrific)? So I'd like to propose a great big group hug and a couple of high fives to go around.

I agree 100%. These two are both awesome schools and we should all be proud to be able to attend one.

Now to add more fuel to the fire (not really):

I think mgmd made the right decision. As a Cali resident, UCSF would be difficult to pass up. As a non-Cali resident, and for reasons I've stated before and won't bore everyone with again, I think the choice for me personally is clearly Hopkins.

Name recognition: I definitely get the occassional dumb look from someone when they ask where I'm going to med school and I tell them. "Ohhh - where is that again?" But it's also true that the vast majority of patients that I have met through my job recognize Hopkins as one of the "pillars of medicine" as someone on the thread has called it. I imagine the same would be true for UCSF - patients "in the know" probably recognize it as one of the best ones but a lot of people don't even know there's a UC in San Francisco, either.

Baltimore vs. San Francisco: What is the big deal, really? People are always talking about how there is sooo much more to do in (insert big city here) than in Baltimore but come on. Most people always end up going to the same few clubs/bars/restaurants anyway. I went to college in L.A. which absolutely dwarfs both these cities several times over, but it's not like my friends or I were going to a different club or hangout every weekend or anything, even though we probably could have with room to spare.

In other words, I think most cities are less different than people think they are. In fact, San Fran is about as East Coast as you can possibly get in the West, which makes it more like Baltimore than other Cali cities. Both cities have very nice areas, and believe it or not San Fran has some areas you would be more than a little hesitant to walk through at night (and I'm talking about downtown, not the outer fringes). Who cares? Every city has its share of ghettos (ghetti?). There are definitely differences between cities as far as transportation, variety of things to do, personality, relative wealth, cost of living etc. which I realize are very important, but when it comes down to it the typical portrayal of Baltimore as Hell and San Francisco as Heaven on Earth are really exaggerated in both directions.

 

[Dr. Xavier]

Mac are sure you want to become a MD, you sound like a JD to me. Good points though.

 

[DW]

i wonder if random people in korea know that cornell is in new york city and not on the ithaca main campus? if not, i'll be crushed

hehe, teasing. i think a few people need to chill a little, this is the equivalent of a "should i get a lamborghini or ferrari?" thread

 

[cchoukal]

I wonder how much of the tuition savings of going to UCSF will be spent absorbing the enormous cost of living difference... SF is an awesome and very expensive city. I bet some people on the board will be able to give you some neighborhoods near the school that aren't so bad...

 

[citygirl]

RENTS IN SAN FRANCISCO HAVE ACTUALLY COME DOWN A LOT IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS SINCE THE ECONOMY HAS CRASHED A BIT. WITH ONE OR TWO ROOMMATES YOU CAN FIND SOMETHING DECENT AND AFFORDABLE CLOSE TO THE SCHOOL.

 

[DW]

Originally posted by citygirl
RENTS IN SAN FRANCISCO HAVE ACTUALLY COME DOWN A LOT IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS SINCE THE ECONOMY HAS CRASHED A BIT. WITH ONE OR TWO ROOMMATES YOU CAN FIND SOMETHING DECENT AND AFFORDABLE CLOSE TO THE SCHOOL.

wait, you guys dont have med school owned/subsidized apts out there in SF?!?!? yikes! i mean, i'm sure the low state school price balances that out, but SF is almost worse than NYC usually when it comes to apartments

 

[citygirl]

NOPE.

 

[A.D.O.R.]

Originally posted by DW
wait, you guys dont have med school owned/subsidized apts out there in SF?!?!? yikes! i mean, i'm sure the low state school price balances that out, but SF is almost worse than NYC usually when it comes to apartments

We do have med school owned/subsidized housing. However, space is limited and if you got in off the waitlist or didn't get your housing application in early you were, for the most part, screwed as far as UCSF-affiliated housing. Being a California resident, I simply went house hunting in late June and got a great room two blocks from school at a reasonable price with utilities included in the rent and free laundry. My rent is under $700 and parking would have been free but I'm leaving my car at home this year. Where there's a will, there's a way.

It is true that some schools are better at providing or guaranteeing housing. Yale jumps to mind but then again I believe they also have a meal-plan option and for this reason Yale SOM rocks! Gotta love those Elies.

 

[citygirl]

Originally posted by A.D.O.R.
We do have med school owned/subsidized housing.

I FORGOT ABOUT THAT. ISN'T IT PRETTY FAR FROM THE CAMPUS, THOUGH?

 

[A.D.O.R.]

I have no idea. I got in off the waitlist so I didn't have a shot. I called the housing lady and she said I was number 100-something on a list of 100-something. lol.

For all the folks still looking for UCSF housing don't forget to check the housing office bulletin board in Millberry Union. That's how I found my place.

 

[mgmd]

Originally posted by MacGyver
Why do you post selective stats?

If you are going to do that, at least be fair and look at both residency match lists as a whole.

I've looked at both and its clear to me that Hopkins has the superior match list overall.

depends what you mean by superior - I'm not ready to close any doors, it seems to me that UCSF's match list is more diverse, with an obvious bias towards CA.
It's a subjective qualification - for someone who feels that Hopkins is the best place to do your residency then Hopkins is obviously the better place to go to med school - but based on my selective stats if someone wants to go to Brig+Women's, to Mayo, or to Mass Gen, they could easily conclude that UCSF would offer them a better chance at getting in.

Originally posted by MacGyver
Yeah but how many UCSF grads chose Hopkins hospital? That argument works against you. If UCSF hospitals were so good, then why leave at all?

I thought you looked at both match lists - and I already posted the answer to that before (3 UCSF grads went to Hopkins, 43 stayed at UCSF - the 35 I posted earlier corresponded to 2002).

Originally posted by MacGyver
I'm talking about UCSF RELATIVE to Hopkins, which is what this whole thread is about. Obviously you cant make statements like these in a vacuum.
On average, I guarantee you that PDs have a higher view of Hopkins grads than UCSF grads. Is it a HUGE difference? No, but there is a difference.

The difference wasn't large enough to really be taken into consideration as a deciding factor for me - and it really was one of Hopkins' only stronger points. The decision was between a school ranked #2 and a school ranked #6 by your pimp; I didn't feel that 4 ranks were worth a potentially uncomfortable life.

Originally posted by MacGyver
I seriously doubt the dean said that. At any rate, even if he did who cares? Are you honestly saying that Hopkins grads cant make their own choices and that they are stiff-armed into staying at JHU? I find that claim extremely dubious.

Hey, I'm just repeating what a graduate of the better med school said - those people don't lie do they? Seriously, I trust the person who said that, and I dislike the fact that you're doubting my sources, it's unfriendly.
Hopkins happens to only allow its students to do 6 weeks of rotations away from school and UCSF allows its students 3,5 months - that's really important for me because I want to get a good sense of what's out there.

Originally posted by MacGyver
After all, you say Baltimore sucks. If Baltimore sucks and Hopkins hospital is no different than UCSF or even subpar, then they must be making stupid decisions to do residency at Hopkins.

I never said that Baltimore sucks, please don't misrepresent me - I said it would be a crappy place for me to live given my life style.

Hopkins has amazing physicians and clinician scientists - it's a wonderful place. I have had the opportunity to spend time with several Hopkins faculty members who were extremely generous with their time and knowledge. Any one who attends the school or does a residency there is privileged to do so.

Originally posted by MacGyver
By your logic, Penn must be a subpar school because there are 5 medical schools in Philly.
Hopkins does NOT compete with Maryland. They are two totally separate medical systems.
Theres no such thing as a Baltimore County Hospital. There's Howard County Hospital which has exclusive ties with Hopkins.
UMaryland students stick to the UMaryland medical center.

I brought up the issue because in comparison to Hopkins, UCSF has no other academic medical center where patients might be treated. It's just a fact that there is no competition for patients.
The comparison to Philly is inappropriate because it's a much larger city that needs more hospitals. SF is larger than Baltimore by about 150 000 people and has a single medical school that has three very different sites of delivery for patient care - the county, the VA, and the tertiary care center. That's a definite bonus for medical training - I'm not sure how you can coherently argue with that.

Originally posted by MacGyver
I'm willing to guarantee you that East Baltimore where Hopkins is located has a substantially higher poverty rate than the worst area in San Fran.

Hey - you win, there are more poor people in E Baltimore. Which always kind of disturbed me when I thought about it - the best medical center in the country can be found in one of the worst neighborhoods in the country, one with the highest rates of syphilis, gonorrhea, and low birth weight children (all preventable illnesses)- am I only one who sees something wrong with that picture?

 

[mgmd]

Originally posted by citygirl
I FORGOT ABOUT THAT. ISN'T IT PRETTY FAR FROM THE CAMPUS, THOUGH?

Actually the subsidized housing is on 3rd and 4th ave, right next to school. It's in renovated old houses with wood floors, pretty nice. There's also some on Aldea (priority to couples and 3rd and 4th years)- about a 10 min drive/shuttle ride away, those places have gorgeous views.


They offer it first to people who are getting lots of fin aid, then it's first come first serve for the rest of the available housing.

 

[mgmd]

Originally posted by Rapid Decomposition


Baltimore vs. San Francisco: What is the big deal, really? People are always talking about how there is sooo much more to do in (insert big city here) than in Baltimore but come on. Most people always end up going to the same few clubs/bars/restaurants anyway. I went to college in L.A. which absolutely dwarfs both these cities several times over, but it's not like my friends or I were going to a different club or hangout every weekend or anything, even though we probably could have with room to spare.

In other words, I think most cities are less different than people think they are. In fact, San Fran is about as East Coast as you can possibly get in the West, which makes it more like Baltimore than other Cali cities. Both cities have very nice areas, and believe it or not San Fran has some areas you would be more than a little hesitant to walk through at night (and I'm talking about downtown, not the outer fringes). Who cares? Every city has its share of ghettos (ghetti?). There are definitely differences between cities as far as transportation, variety of things to do, personality, relative wealth, cost of living etc. which I realize are very important, but when it comes down to it the typical portrayal of Baltimore as Hell and San Francisco as Heaven on Earth are really exaggerated in both directions.

It's a question of personality - I know myself and I know what I like to do.
As an example - on Monday I went out for small plate French/Spanish fancy food. On Tuesday I went to play pool in a huge pool hall in the Tenderloin and then had sushi. On Wednesday I stayed home and cooked myself dinner with organic food from a tiny, ridiculously cheap grocery that's 4 blocks from my house. Last night I had tapas. All the restaurants that I mentioned are in a 4 block radius from my apt in SF. I walked back from the pool hall to my place. That's what I mean by quality of life. This afternoon I'm thinking about going to the Chagall exhibit at the SFMoma, to see a Luis Bunuel movie at the Castro, or I might just go to Golden Gate Park and laze around. This weekend I'm going down to Santa Cruz to see my parents.
Of course SF is not Heaven on earth, never said it is, but I know that it has a lot to offer that will keep me sane while I'm in med school. I was less convinced of what Baltimore had to offer.

 

[mgmd]

Originally posted by cchoukal
I wonder how much of the tuition savings of going to UCSF will be spent absorbing the enormous cost of living difference... SF is an awesome and very expensive city. I bet some people on the board will be able to give you some neighborhoods near the school that aren't so bad...

cchoukal - please refer to my earlier messages about the cost of living as budgeted by both school's fin aid services (51 000 at Hopkins vs 33 000 at UCSF).
I've lived in SF for the last 2 years so I'm familiar with the cost of living here and with the different neighborhoods.