horrible undergrad resrch experience - betrayed by PI

[nancy0223]

Although the title might sound a lil harsher than how others may judge from my story, I feel very disappointed and personally betrayed from this research experience.
I've been working in this lab at a prestigious research institution, where the PI is what ppl could call "a rising star" in his field, as an undergraduate researcher. Since I joined the lab, I was delegated an independent, multi-stage project for which I was the lead under the support of an experienced PhD student. The project has taken me 2nd half of my junior yr, one summer, and my senior year thus far and I'm currently stuck in a particular stage which is crucial to overcome for the success of the whole thing.
My PI has recently decided, after having me worked on the project for the past year and half, to hand it over to a postdoc who has recently joined the lab. Even though I could see the reasoning behind his decision, I sacrificed too much for this project to just easily let it go. Because of this project, I was distracted from my MCAT studying, caused conflicts with some of my teammates, ans sacrificed both my summer & winter working on expts. Now I don't know if everything that I've given up for it has been worthwhile. And the PI was simply using me as a research tool. When someone better comes along, ie the postdoc who has extensive experience working w/ similar systems to ours, he just ditched me w/o hesitance.
I'm sorry for the long post, but just need a place to vent. Come and discuss if u're interested.

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[DrWookie]

Is he completely ditching you or is he just giving the post-doc the lead on the project? I mean you still did a significant amount of work on the project. It is probably "no hard feelings" and you could ask if he would write you a letter. And when a publication is in the works you will most likely be on it, maybe not first author, but you are an undergrad .

 

[235009]

yes, you are just a "research tool" ....i'd prefer to call it super cheap labor

your PI didn't betray you....aren't you graduating? ....what'll happen to the project then?

since you have no interest in pursuing research beyond undergrad it's understandable that your PI would look for someone more dedicated to carry the project forward since he obviously is not planning on hiring you as a lab tech and i'm assuming you don't plan on working there for free during your year off

also be wary of young professors... they tend to be very insecure and can be a pain in the butt sometimes (i say this from personal experience and have heard it from a couple of older professors)

 

[Siverhideo1985]

If this research produces any papers you should still have your name on them...you have put too much work into the project.

Do you like your PI (besides this decision)? Maybe you can discuss your disappointment with him and clear some things up? Maybe if he knew how strong you felt about the project he would give you more responsibilities?

I think "rising stars" are under alot of pressures (I see it with the young associate professors at my university) to keep rising or they will fall very fast.

In short (and if you feel comfortable with your PI) I think communication is key in your situation. Figure out what role he has planned for you in the future of this project and make sure he knows that you are very attached to your work.

I hope it works out for you. In the end, at least it was a good research experience.

 

[chessknt]

Above poster has it spot on. What happens to the project when you graduate?

And communication can help alot--remember they are scientists, not mind readers.

 

[dynezxice]

I agree with the other posters. Definitely talk to your PI about it and discuss your concerns with him. However, in the end, when the dust settles, remember that no one can take away the invaluable knowledge and experience you've gained working there as a fellow researcher.

 

[NotAndrew]

yes, you are just a "research tool" ....i'd prefer to call it super cheap labor

your PI didn't betray you....aren't you graduating? ....what'll happen to the project then?

Exactly, and in the end you did still get a years worth of research experience. That is what I am guessing you wanted all along.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

first, you need to understand the research environment: postdocs, research assistants, lab managers, interns, and undergrad "tools" all come and go. turnover can often be just a few years, because everyone is, in a sense, using everyone else for their personal gain. (remember: a large reason why you are there is to put it on your resume and get a LOR. same is true for postdocs--it's called postdoctoral training for a reason.) the PI's are pretty much the only thing constant, and it's up to them to keep their labs/projects alive.

second: yes, the PI will choose the "better person" with "more extensive experience"...duh! a PhD beats an undergrad any day. maybe there are things that you can't do and it's not worth training you because you will be gone in a few months anyway.

third: it's not like the PI kicked you off the project or out of the lab. you will probably still be on the project in a large capacity.

fourth: yes, communicate with your PI. express your interest and enthusiasm. get to know the new postdoc and talk with him/her about the project. explain why staying on the same project is important to you, but don't whine.

finally: credit is ALWAYS given where credit is due. you may not be first or second author on a publication that results, but you need to be realistic in terms of how much you actually contributed. at the least, you will be aknoweledged and get a great LOR.

it is definitely not as bad as you think.

 

[nancy0223]

Hi guys, thanks so much for all ur inputs
I actually told my PI that I would most likely be staying for another yr for a masters degree (which I may or may not do in reality). So I'd technically still be working on the project for another yr.
I personally feel that he kicked me off b/c I haven't been progressing as far as he had hoped. The newly hired postdoc, with extensive experience working in the field plus has produced promising results on her new assignments, would likely produce good results in a way shorter time period. And my PI knows I'm very strong on the ownership issue, but he still insisted that the new person lead my project and I be the 3rd supporting person, in addition to that grad student who has been assisting me. Also, I'd be credited for my work nonetheless.
Now I just don't know if I could do this anymore. I feel like all the PI has ever thought about was himself and the fame/grant that the project could bring him. BTW, when I mentioned the possibility of quitting the lab, he didn't seem to be concerned at all .

 

[redlight]

well im guessing she wanted the project to culminate in something tangible and noteworthy like a publication (in addition to a glowing LOR).

and OP are you totally being shafted and kicked off the project or are you just taking a smaller role?

either way no one can take away the experience you've gained and if this project amounts to anything publishable your name will likely be on there somewhere, right?

but i totally see why you are upset and i applaud your levelheadedness in not overreacting. take comfort in knowing your LOR should be solid... and maybe this experience will open doors for you down the road

 

[redlight]

uhhhhh nvm disregard the above post lol.

 

[aznb0y129]

Hi guys, thanks so much for all ur inputs
I actually told my PI that I would most likely be staying for another yr for a masters degree (which I may or may not do in reality). So I'd technically still be working on the project for another yr.
I personally feel that he kicked me off b/c I haven't been progressing as far as he had hoped. The newly hired postdoc, with extensive experience working in the field plus has produced promising results on her new assignments, would likely produce good results in a way shorter time period. And my PI knows I'm very strong on the ownership issue, but he still insisted that the new person lead my project and I be the 3rd supporting person, in addition to that grad student who has been assisting me. Also, I'd be credited for my work nonetheless.
Now I just don't know if I could do this anymore. I feel like all the PI has ever thought about was himself and the fame/grant that the project could bring him. BTW, when I mentioned the possibility of quitting the lab, he didn't seem to be concerned at all .

Why would he be concerned since you haven't been producing up to his standards?

I don't think you understand the pressure that PI's are under to produce results, especially in today's current economic conditions. Funding is being cut across the board, so naturally he's going to install the best person to get the results he needs. From what you've said, it sounds like the postdoc is doing a better job than you were.

And as an undergrad, you'd better get used to being on the bottom of the totem pole because once you're in med school, it starts all over again.

 

[NotAndrew]

Hi guys, thanks so much for all ur inputs
I actually told my PI that I would most likely be staying for another yr for a masters degree (which I may or may not do in reality). So I'd technically still be working on the project for another yr.
I personally feel that he kicked me off b/c I haven't been progressing as far as he had hoped. The newly hired postdoc, with extensive experience working in the field plus has produced promising results on her new assignments, would likely produce good results in a way shorter time period. And my PI knows I'm very strong on the ownership issue, but he still insisted that the new person lead my project and I be the 3rd supporting person, in addition to that grad student who has been assisting me. Also, I'd be credited for my work nonetheless.
Now I just don't know if I could do this anymore. I feel like all the PI has ever thought about was himself and the fame/grant that the project could bring him. BTW, when I mentioned the possibility of quitting the lab, he didn't seem to be concerned at all .

No, offense but if the Phd is outperforming you as much as you claim it sounds like the PI made the right/smart decision. As for him not caring when you threaten to quit, he new you would eventually leave the project, and he can and will replace you with someone else.

 

[nancy0223]

Actually the postdoc never touched my project (even until today as we speak). I meant she has had promising results from her own expts, which mostly involved difficult cell culturing. So it's fair to say that she hasn't really had any experience our particular system.
My PI decided to use her b/c of her previous experience w/ similar systems during her PhD year. Not that she has ever worked w/ our system.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

Why would he be concerned since you haven't been producing up to his standards?

I don't think you understand the pressure that PI's are under to produce results, especially in today's current economic conditions. Funding is being cut across the board, so naturally he's going to install the best person to get the results he needs. From what you've said, it sounds like the postdoc is doing a better job than you were.

regardless of the state of the economy, in research you are constantly under pressure to produce results. most (sometimes all) of your funding comes in the form of grants, which are for a set amount over a fixed period of time. so yeah, you need to constantly progress.

also, undergrad vs. postdoc = no contest.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

He was using you for your hard work in his lab, but you were using him for the opportunity to be involved in research (Presumably from your story, you didn't do any grant writing and are under his umbrella) and use that experience to get into medical school.

It was a mutually beneficial arrangement that ended a bit bit earlier than you anticipated, but it was going to end eventually (and it sounds like you can still hang on, you're just no longer the boss).

My advice? It's okay to feel raw as this does suck, but you really don't have any reason to feel indignant for the reasons the others and myself have stated above.

What should you do? Be gracious. Try to set up a meeting with your PI, and give a more palatable version of your story. Basically said "I really enjoyed working in the capacity I did. I understand your reason for bringing in the PhD, I just want to clarify what my role will be from this time out." Also, if you haven't already, get all your ducks in the row for getting a letter or whatever in case the new arrangement doesn't work out and things sour up.

 

[nancy0223]

He was using you for your hard work in his lab, but you were using him for the opportunity to be involved in research (Presumably from your story, you didn't do any grant writing and are under his umbrella) and use that experience to get into medical school.

It was a mutually beneficial arrangement that ended a bit bit earlier than you anticipated, but it was going to end eventually (and it sounds like you can still hang on, you're just no longer the boss).

My advice? It's okay to feel raw as this does suck, but you really don't have any reason to feel indignant for the reasons the others and myself have stated above.

What should you do? Be gracious. Try to set up a meeting with your PI, and give a more palatable version of your story. Basically said "I really enjoyed working in the capacity I did. I understand your reason for bringing in the PhD, I just want to clarify what my role will be from this time out." Also, if you haven't already, get all your ducks in the row for getting a letter or whatever in case the new arrangement doesn't work out and things sour up.

I already had a recommendation from my PI and I seriously doubt how good it was. Especially I feel he's just someone who cares about no other besides his own thing since he has a habit of keeping on forgetting things we (undergrads) ask him for.
When I started I was looking for a publication, which I perfectly understand I may or may not be able to produce by the time I graduate. Now I just feel like this whole experience would end up being nothing despite that I wasted all my time and energy on it.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Well, it absolutely will not end up being "nothing." Even if no publication results from this, you have a hell of an EC you can play up. You've had an extended meaningful research experience where your PI had enough faith in you that you were working very independently for a very long period of time. That's nothing to sneeze at. Although spinning this as a positive seems like a bitter pill to swallow now, I think further down the road, when you've had time to reflect, even though it didn't end as you would have like this experience is going to help you be a compelling medical school applicant.

However, the letter of recommendation situation IS a very sticky pickle and believe me I don't envy your position. If his letter is as bland/haphazard as you seem to suspect ("Nancy" was a student in my lab. We got along well. She works hard. She will probably do well in medical school. The end") you may want to avoid it. However, if you do decide not to use it and it's a good recommendation, that's something you're going to kick yourself for not using because it's such a big part of your application. Tough decision, one I don't have any foolproof advice for.

 

[eyang22286]

do you go to UCSD

 

[Greonis]

When I started I was looking for a publication, which I perfectly understand I may or may not be able to produce by the time I graduate. Now I just feel like this whole experience would end up being nothing despite that I wasted all my time and energy on it.

In no way should you have counted on this. Especially as an undergraduate. Publications - in addition to hard work - also depend on luck and the nature of your research. Moreover, declaring that the experience would "end up being nothing" because you failed to receive a publication is pure nonsense. Think about everything that you learned/were exposed to during the course of your time in the lab. Do you really value that less than having your name be added to a piece of paper? Do you think medical schools place more emphasis on having your name be written down somewhere over the skills and experiences that you got out of the research? Some might, but you'd be hard-pressed to prove that for the vast majority. As "superficial" as this process can be (that is, its reliance on numbers and easily objectifiable traits), there is still a lot to be said about the journey one takes to accomplish something over just the accomplishment itself.

I am sorry about what happened, and hope that the LoR situation can be worked out. But, I would hardly call this "waste" something to lament over. Come your time to apply for medical school, your application will be strengthened substantially by your research experience - publication or not. Best of luck to you!

 

[dw2158]

Although the title might sound a lil harsher than how others may judge from my story, I feel very disappointed and personally betrayed from this research experience.
I've been working in this lab at a prestigious research institution, where the PI is what ppl could call "a rising star" in his field, as an undergraduate researcher. Since I joined the lab, I was delegated an independent, multi-stage project for which I was the lead under the support of an experienced PhD student. The project has taken me 2nd half of my junior yr, one summer, and my senior year thus far and I'm currently stuck in a particular stage which is crucial to overcome for the success of the whole thing.
My PI has recently decided, after having me worked on the project for the past year and half, to hand it over to a postdoc who has recently joined the lab. Even though I could see the reasoning behind his decision, I sacrificed too much for this project to just easily let it go. Because of this project, I was distracted from my MCAT studying, caused conflicts with some of my teammates, ans sacrificed both my summer & winter working on expts. Now I don't know if everything that I've given up for it has been worthwhile. And the PI was simply using me as a research tool. When someone better comes along, ie the postdoc who has extensive experience working w/ similar systems to ours, he just ditched me w/o hesitance.
I'm sorry for the long post, but just need a place to vent. Come and discuss if u're interested.

Hi guys, thanks so much for all ur inputs
I actually told my PI that I would most likely be staying for another yr for a masters degree (which I may or may not do in reality). So I'd technically still be working on the project for another yr.
I personally feel that he kicked me off b/c I haven't been progressing as far as he had hoped. The newly hired postdoc, with extensive experience working in the field plus has produced promising results on her new assignments, would likely produce good results in a way shorter time period. And my PI knows I'm very strong on the ownership issue, but he still insisted that the new person lead my project and I be the 3rd supporting person, in addition to that grad student who has been assisting me. Also, I'd be credited for my work nonetheless.
Now I just don't know if I could do this anymore. I feel like all the PI has ever thought about was himself and the fame/grant that the project could bring him. BTW, when I mentioned the possibility of quitting the lab, he didn't seem to be concerned at all .

nothing your PI has done sounds unreasonable to me. As an undergrad, you are OF COURSE just a research tool (that's what you get for working at a "prestigious research institution"). and if you're stuck, your PI of course has the right to find a way to get the project unstuck. if that means it changes hands, then so be it. PIs have to think about themselves and grants because that's how you survive in the world of research.

be happy that you got to be so heavily involved in this project for as long as you did. research experience like that is much better than just being an extra set of hands. i'm guessing you learned lots of valuable skills that will serve you well in the future.

 

[flip26]

I hope you don't expect a strong letter of rec from this PI...

 

[Kaustikos]

I hope you don't expect a strong letter of rec from this PI...

Truth

Also, what on earth is your problem? The PI picked a post-doc to finish a project in a faster amount of time. You, MORE than likely, would not have stayed on unless you didn't get into medical school. Your committment to the project in general wasn't that large, so why should his/her committment to you be the same? You're still working on the project and still get to collaborate. In my eyes, this is an opportunity to see what you might have missed when working on this project. Set your ego aside for a minute and take a lesson from this humbling experience. The reality is that the post-doc has worked in this field and can probably get results in a shorter amount of time than you. That's great news for the PI and for you. You're going to gain perspective on this project and have the ability to work closely with another researcher. Don't look at this as the PI betraying you, because you're going to be in a world of hurt if you keep this up in the professional world. This happens ALL the time and it's better to learn from this than to get depressed/angry. In the end, it never hurts to have more people working together on a project.

Also, you might get that publication you wanted

 

[UVAbme2009]

Clearly you don't understand how labs are run. When a project isn't working, it goes to someone else or is scrapped. I've worked on five projects in less than two years. Two I got some good work in, two were complete failures, and one I'm going on with now.

It's too bad you took this personal, because it wasn't. Money is tight, and things need to be finished in a timely and less costly manner.

 

[StPlayrXtreme]

I think you're over-reacting. I don't think it's anything personal, and it sounds like you need to put things in perspective.

You are an undergraduate, and while you can be helpful, you're simply not as useful as a PhD student who has lots of experience and time to dedicate to the project.

A previous poster mentioned that you should be entitled to a name on a paper if things get published, but I don't think it will work that way. It sounds like you were essentially doing what your PI told you to do. Typically, your name doesn't go on the paper unless you came up with the idea and designed the protocols you used to get results.

You said you suggested that you might quit to your PI, and he/she didn't seem concerned...that probably wasn't a good idea. You're in the lab to learn, and research experience is really a valuable thing. Especially if your PI is a "rising star" he/she is doing you a favor by having you on the project, even if it was only for a year.

 

[pazan]

Your PI did you a favor by entrusting you with an independent project and he/she will do you another favor by writing you a letter of rec (and possibly publishing your work). Also, 1 year of work without a producing a publication is not that good. I think you owe your PI for the opportunity you were given a lot more than he/she owes you... science is a business of money, respect, and competition (as much as it is an art of generating ideas). If you stay on your PI's good side, your future rewards may be greater than anything you could hope to accomplish by continuing the project.

 

[DrWookie]

I already had a recommendation from my PI and I seriously doubt how good it was. Especially I feel he's just someone who cares about no other besides his own thing since he has a habit of keeping on forgetting things we (undergrads) ask him for.
When I started I was looking for a publication, which I perfectly understand I may or may not be able to produce by the time I graduate. Now I just feel like this whole experience would end up being nothing despite that I wasted all my time and energy on it.

I think you need to act a little more mature, no offense.

The PI doesn't just care "only about himself". You are angry because he forgets things you ask? Imagine putting yourself in his/her position. He is managing WAY more than just you, in addition to possible teaching classes. If he has even 6 people working in his lab that is a lot of projects/data/stuff in general to keep track of. He isn't intentionally forgetting something because he only thinks about himself.

If you performed underpar and he thinks the post-doc can do better, he has every right to put the post-doc on the project. You will still get credit for what you have done, but he has an obligation to be as effective as possible. Even if you could do the research better, the post-doc still has way more time on their hands to do it (it is basically a full-time job for them, and I assume you are still in classes).

Just suck it up, keep working hard and putting the effort in. You can't expect to be treated like you are equal to a post-doc because you aren't. You'll still get great research experience. Just take that and be happy.

 

[DrWookie]

You are an undergraduate, and while you can be helpful, you're simply not as useful as a PhD student who has lots of experience and time to dedicate to the project.

A previous poster mentioned that you should be entitled to a name on a paper if things get published, but I don't think it will work that way. It sounds like you were essentially doing what your PI told you to do. Typically, your name doesn't go on the paper unless you came up with the idea and designed the protocols you used to get results.

If he generated over a years worth of data that will be presented in a paper, he should have his name on it. It probably won't end up being the first author, but it should be there somewhere. Displaying data in figures/tables that someone else collected, without acknowledging them, is unethical.

From what it sounds like he probably will get his name on the paper, I really don't think the PI has any hard feeilngs. Though he might if this person keeps acting up and threatening to quit.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I think you're over-reacting. I don't think it's anything personal, and it sounds like you need to put things in perspective.

You are an undergraduate, and while you can be helpful, you're simply not as useful as a PhD student who has lots of experience and time to dedicate to the project.

A previous poster mentioned that you should be entitled to a name on a paper if things get published, but I don't think it will work that way. It sounds like you were essentially doing what your PI told you to do. Typically, your name doesn't go on the paper unless you came up with the idea and designed the protocols you used to get results.

You said you suggested that you might quit to your PI, and he/she didn't seem concerned...that probably wasn't a good idea. You're in the lab to learn, and research experience is really a valuable thing. Especially if your PI is a "rising star" he/she is doing you a favor by having you on the project, even if it was only for a year.

That's simply not true. In fact, sometimes even the first author hasn't done that.

But as an undergrad, you have to take what you can get. Just being on the paper anywhere is a great thing.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

If you did the work, you get your name on the paper. Otherwise it is plagiarism, period.

 

[DrWookie]

That's simply not true. In fact, sometimes even the first author hasn't done that.

But as an undergrad, you have to take what you can get. Just being on the paper anywhere is a great thing.

At least in my case the PI of my lab always puts his name LAST on every paper...and the authors go in order of who did the most work (as it should). Though my PI is probably the nicest guy in the world.

 

[235009]

At least in my case the PI of my lab always puts his name LAST on every paper...and the authors go in order of who did the most work (as it should). Though my PI is probably the nicest guy in the world.

your PI doesn't do that because he is "the nicest guy in the world" he does that because it is convention. The only positions that really matter in scientific publications are first author, second author and last author...the order of everyone else doesn't really matter.

 

[childoftheatom]

In the lab I worked in, the PI was also really forgetful. It wasn't anything personal, that was just the nature of his personality. That and he has a ton of responsibilities - teaching, writing grants, his family, etc.

Also, you mentioned that your PI is pretty young. Is he in a position where he's trying to get tenure? That is really important for young faculty members at Universities, but I'm not sure if it applies to your PI at your institution.

Lastly, having a publication on your resume would be nice, but it's not always possible. A lot of it is luck - some students just happen to join a lab at the right time, when a project is going smoothly, and get put on a paper when the project completes. Others put in years of hard work and don't see a publication out of it. What is really important is what you've learned, and the experiences you take away from the lab.

 

[not so calm now]

your PI doesn't do that because he is "the nicest guy in the world" he does that because it is convention. The only positions that really matter in scientific publications are first author, second author and last author...the order of everyone else doesn't really matter.

Agreed. Last author is really to show a position of mentorship/guidance/advice and signifies a more "senior" status than humility.

 

[nancy0223]

In the lab I worked in, the PI was also really forgetful. It wasn't anything personal, that was just the nature of his personality. That and he has a ton of responsibilities - teaching, writing grants, his family, etc.

Also, you mentioned that your PI is pretty young. Is he in a position where he's trying to get tenure? That is really important for young faculty members at Universities, but I'm not sure if it applies to your PI at your institution.

Lastly, having a publication on your resume would be nice, but it's not always possible. A lot of it is luck - some students just happen to join a lab at the right time, when a project is going smoothly, and get put on a paper when the project completes. Others put in years of hard work and don't see a publication out of it. What is really important is what you've learned, and the experiences you take away from the lab.

Actually he just got tenure last yr. But as much as I've got to know him, my PI is the kind of person what ppl would call an "aggressive" researcher who doesn't produce anything but articles in high impact factor magazines.

 

[kastle6797]

The wonderful world of research and academia...(vomit)

 

[linguini]

I think you should bury your pride a bit and continue on with the project. 3rd author is impressive for an undergraduate to obtain. Don't let anyone tell you that being 1st or 2nd author is the only thing worth accomplishing. My only publication is a 3rd author on a paper in a respected journal and I was subsequently invited to interview at some big research schools.

You are obviously frustrated but you need to keep things in perspective. Your PI has a lot more riding on this research than you do. While this is a part-time gig for you, this is his career. A strong reputation in an academic field is essential to procuring big grants. If getting this project done and published will enhance his reputation then he's not doing anything wrong by hiring someone else to do it.

 

[DrWookie]

your PI doesn't do that because he is "the nicest guy in the world" he does that because it is convention. The only positions that really matter in scientific publications are first author, second author and last author...the order of everyone else doesn't really matter.

Oh sorry I actually sorta meant those two comments separately. I know it is convention to put the PI last and the order for who does the work. The fact he is the nicest guy in the world is based on other things, and it was just said to suggest that I may not be 100% familiar with how to deal with PIs because mine is super friendly and super chill.

Though I definitely have read papers where the PI of the lab puts his name first, and I know for a fact they haven't actually done the real research.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Actually he just got tenure last yr. But as much as I've got to know him, my PI is the kind of person what ppl would call an "aggressive" researcher who doesn't produce anything but articles in high impact factor magazines.

Like I said earlier, as an undergrad you take what you can get, but that's part of the reason I think it's so important to carefully screen labs you might join if you continue research in med school and grad school. I've heard too many horror stories about faculty members failing to reimburse grad students or MD/Phd students getting kicked out of labs after 2 years, thus extending their training. Your situation doesn't sound all THAT terrible but of course only you have the full story--regardless, setting clear expectations early on for your next experience when you WILL be a grad student or med student will be important.

 

[Kaustikos]

If you did the work, you get your name on the paper. Otherwise it is plagiarism, period.

No, it isn't. Do you know anything about research or do you really believe that life is that simple?

 

[fizzle]

Methinks the OP needs to read phdcomics (http://www.phdcomics.com/) and realize from it that his/her situation with the PI is in no way unique. It's how pretty much all labs operate (hence the generalizations on that website).

 

[UVAbme2009]

No, it isn't. Do you know anything about research or do you really believe that life is that simple?

From what the OP described, it sounds like he/she would have a name on the paper. Of course, paper authors can be tricky, even though there is a system out there for it.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

No, it isn't. Do you know anything about research or do you really believe that life is that simple?

From what the OP described, it sounds like he/she would have a name on the paper. Of course, paper authors can be tricky, even though there is a system out there for it.

In my research experience at 2 universities and 2 international research centers (overal 3+ yrs total), everyone in academia is very concerned with giving credit where credit is due. Of course you are the bottom of the pole as an undergrad researcher, but that does not mean that the rules don't apply.

The OP sounds like she has made substantial contributions to this project and therefore it would be wrong (and illegal) for her not to be on any paper that publishes results that she was directly responsible for.

 

[diosa428]

Hi guys, thanks so much for all ur inputs
I actually told my PI that I would most likely be staying for another yr for a masters degree (which I may or may not do in reality). So I'd technically still be working on the project for another yr.
I personally feel that he kicked me off b/c I haven't been progressing as far as he had hoped. The newly hired postdoc, with extensive experience working in the field plus has produced promising results on her new assignments, would likely produce good results in a way shorter time period. And my PI knows I'm very strong on the ownership issue, but he still insisted that the new person lead my project and I be the 3rd supporting person, in addition to that grad student who has been assisting me. Also, I'd be credited for my work nonetheless.
Now I just don't know if I could do this anymore. I feel like all the PI has ever thought about was himself and the fame/grant that the project could bring him. BTW, when I mentioned the possibility of quitting the lab, he didn't seem to be concerned at all .

It seems to me that you might be confused about whether or not this was your project in the first place. I think it actually belonged to the grad student who was "assisting" you. I'm guessing that your PI told you you were going to work on this project, but the grad student basically taught you how to do everything, right? PIs don't give projects to undergrads, especially new ones with no lab experience; you have to be under some sort of oversight. So they put you on a project that belongs to a grad student, and while they often have a lot of other things going on, they are actually the ones in charge. They just call it "your" project b/c it's the only thing that you have going on, and the grad student probably has 100 things going on. So while you are doing most of the gruntwork, the project actually belongs to the grad student because they are a more permanent fixture in the lab, both in the amount of time they spend in the lab on a daily/weekly basis, and in the number of years they will be there. If this was really *your* project, you wouldn't now be the third person in line, you'd be the second, under the postdoc. So essentially you aren't the one losing the project, the grad student is. Seems like if things aren't moving as slowly as the PI would like them to be, so he decided you guys needed additional oversight.

In reality, labs are collaborative in nature. Everyone has different amounts of experience and different ideas about how to do things. Most projects are collaborative to some extent. For example, I would do parts of other people's projects if they needed help with something that I had expertise in and they didn't, and vice versa. Having the post doc "officially" in charge of your project doesn't change things very much. It just means that someone else will be making suggestions about your project and maybe running some experiments. I think you should talk to your PI about what, exactly, your role will be. My guess is that you can still be as involved in the project as you were before, and maybe have the post doc teach you some new things.

 

[diosa428]

The OP sounds like she has made substantial contributions to this project and therefore it would be wrong (and illegal) for her not to be on any paper that publishes results that she was directly responsible for.

Sure, but people's names get left off of papers all the time. If you leave a lab, and they want to publish your data, some PIs will think to put your name on it and some won't. Technically, data belongs to a lab (ie, the PI) and not to the researcher who found it. That's why you can't take your lab notebook with you when you leave. So yes, while it is certainly unethical and disappointing to have your name left off, you generally don't have any ability to retaliate. That's why it's a good idea to stay in a lab until the data is published, or try to keep in touch if you think it will be published after you leave (and ask for copies of any manuscript that might be submitted for publication and suggest that you would like to read them).

 

[Siverhideo1985]

Sure, but people's names get left off of papers all the time. If you leave a lab, and they want to publish your data, some PIs will think to put your name on it and some won't. Technically, data belongs to a lab (ie, the PI) and not to the researcher who found it. That's why you can't take your lab notebook with you when you leave. So yes, while it is certainly unethical and disappointing to have your name left off, you generally don't have any ability to retaliate. That's why it's a good idea to stay in a lab until the data is published, or try to keep in touch if you think it will be published after you leave (and ask for copies of any manuscript that might be submitted for publication and suggest that you would like to read them).

I don't know what labs you guys work in...I left my undergrad research project to a PhD student when I left for grad school and when they published the stuff, I still got second author (because the grad student ended up doing more work than me after I had left).

Of course, if you don't stand up for your rights...

 

[Nanon]

Methinks the OP needs to read phdcomics (http://www.phdcomics.com/) and realize from it that his/her situation with the PI is in no way unique. It's how pretty much all labs operate (hence the generalizations on that website).

Thank you for that.

To the OP: Everyone on here is right to some extent, without knowing all of the details of the scope of your project or your input into it. Some projects fail. In fact, lots of projects fail. Sometimes they become new, better projects, sometimes they just die on the vine. The best you can do is try to make as many of them that you're involved with succeed, but it's not always possible. When that happens, you don't get a say in whether you stay on the project unless you're the PI - sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

What ever you do, don't freak out and don't stress. Don't hate on the PI. If it was a waste of your time, that's because you didn't learn anything, and that would be your fault. More than likely, you did - and the next project will be better for it.

S.

 

[efitzpat]

I personally feel that he kicked me off b/c I haven't been progressing as far as he had hoped. The newly hired postdoc, with extensive experience working in the field plus has produced promising results on her new assignments, would likely produce good results in a way shorter time period. ..... I feel like all the PI has ever thought about was himself and the fame/grant that the project could bring him. BTW, when I mentioned the possibility of quitting the lab, he didn't seem to be concerned at all .

Seriously? If you can admit that someone would do your job better, than why are you surprised? Its not an art project where its your vision, its a business. This is your undergrad job/volunteer activity for a brief period, but this is your PIs life - their job and livelihood. Publish or perish dude. If you aren't cranking out the results to do the former, then I'd demote you.

By the way, most undergrads don't get the lead on projects, so be grateful that they trusted you that much. Take the opportunity to learn from the post-doc and stop whining. If you really are upset, then quit. And dont be upset because your PI doesn't beg you to stay.

YOU'RE AN UNDERGRAD

Methinks the OP needs to read phdcomics (http://www.phdcomics.com/) and realize from it that his/her situation with the PI is in no way unique. It's how pretty much all labs operate (hence the generalizations on that website).

LOVE phd comics. Oh so funny.

 

[Vihsadas]

regardless of the state of the economy, in research you are constantly under pressure to produce results. most (sometimes all) of your funding comes in the form of grants, which are for a set amount over a fixed period of time. so yeah, you need to constantly progress.

also, undergrad vs. postdoc = no contest.

That's not *always* true, but it is most of the time. What matters is your competency level. Undergrads can get placed before postdocs on papers if they have significantly contributed. Undergrads often get treated like nothing because they know nothing. So...learn something. Devour the literature, learn all of the details of the most important techniques and become involved.Talk to your PI, suggest improvements on experiments, come up with ideas, find ways to test new problems, come up with new directions for projects. If you show that you are competent, I guarantee that any reasonable PI will trust you. Don't settle for being at the bottom of the totem pole. That being said, in academia, if you don't produce, then the PI has every right to boot you from a project. It's tough and unfortunate, but science is competitive.

A previous poster mentioned that you should be entitled to a name on a paper if things get published, but I don't think it will work that way. It sounds like you were essentially doing what your PI told you to do. Typically, your name doesn't go on the paper unless you came up with the idea and designed the protocols you used to get results.

That's not at all true. If you perform any research or contribute to any of the figures in the paper, even if you didn't come up with the idea you will often be an author. A lot of journals (Nature for example) actually states this in their publication requirements. Generally the only people that conceive any part of the research are the PI (usually the last author), and the first and sometimes second author (usually the post-doc or student in charge of the project). Everyone else on the paper probably just did a bunch of westerns or RT-PCRs. For instance, me, the PhD student I work under and the PI all collectively designed, executed and wrote the papert we just published in PNAS. Luckily I work under a brutally fair PI so I was given second author. The other authors on the paper (2 post-docs and a PhD student) probably don't even know the major conclusions of what we wrote but they are still (deservedly) authors. They had no hand in conceiving the research.

At least in my case the PI of my lab always puts his name LAST on every paper...and the authors go in order of who did the most work (as it should). Though my PI is probably the nicest guy in the world.

This is how it always is. The only places that matter in science are first, second and last. PIs always go at the end.

your PI doesn't do that because he is "the nicest guy in the world" he does that because it is convention. The only positions that really matter in scientific publications are first author, second author and last author...the order of everyone else doesn't really matter.

Exactly.

 

[Kaustikos]

In my research experience at 2 universities and 2 international research centers (overal 3+ yrs total), everyone in academia is very concerned with giving credit where credit is due. Of course you are the bottom of the pole as an undergrad researcher, but that does not mean that the rules don't apply.

The OP sounds like she has made substantial contributions to this project and therefore it would be wrong (and illegal) for her not to be on any paper that publishes results that she was directly responsible for.

Publications don't just come from graduate schools

And it isn't plagiarism to not include someone who does benchwork. Because then you start asking where you draw the line. Do you include the pre-med volunteer who changed the media in your cells that one summer for the cell-line you kept for that project?