Hospital Staffing Pharmacists and Residencies

[filipelli]

P4s at my school have been hired at hospitals without a residency and like I have said in another thread, a residency is my plan C behind a hospital and retail job. I'm not buying the residency hype on this forum and neither are my classmates for what it's worth.

I was hired (along with another close friend of mine) to a hospital in a large health system without a residency. Coincidentally he became a Pediatric Clinical pharmacist and I got the Clinical Informatics job. We are new grads straight out of school. So no, a residency is not necessary. But what is necessary is motivation, ambition, dedication, a good attitude, interpersonal skills, aptitude for learning, thick skin, leadership qualities, intelligence and a little moxi - not in that order.


Funny thing is that I was talking to my clincal supervisor (my boss) yesterday about some interviews he was doing for our new positions, and he adamantly believes that people who do residencies "need the extra help" to get ahead. I could agree to that but I am biased. I do know of some "drones" that went the residency route because that was just the step to take to get to the end position of clinical pharmacist. It is however, absolutely possible to jump in head first and build yourself up from the ground up. I'd say with my friend who showed all the qualities of being an excellent pharmacist to be promoted so quickly to the Peds role....he is impressive.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[fattunesy]

Funny thing is that I was talking to my clincal supervisor (my boss) yesterday about some interviews he was doing for our new positions, and he adamantly believes that people who do residencies "need the extra help" to get ahead.

About a year ago we were looking to fill a staff position, 2nd shift, Sunday to Thursday. My friend who at the time was assistant director and myself as outpatient PIC were heavily involved in the hiring and interviewing. We ended up hiring a residency trained (and damn proud of it too) pharmacist, even though there were a lot of initial misgivings about taking someone with so much clinical training and focus on in a more staff oriented role. We figured that as a small institution where we function more as a clinical/staff hybrid model it would be a good fit. We were wrong. It hasn't been a disaster, but time has shown it clearly was not the right choice. Every month or so we hear rumors about this pharmacist interviewing for more "purely clinical" roles at other institutions. During the interviews we made a point of emphasizing we wanted to stabilize the position and wanted someone who would be with us for 3-5 years, at a minimum...that looks less and less likely to actually occur.

Fast forward to a couple months ago. My friend is now Director and I am doing his old job as part of a new position. The pharmacist we hired managed to convince HR that she needed to be moved to a rotating shift when we had an opening, we had no choice. So we have a 2nd sift opening again. This time we decided no residency trained pharmacists. We interviewed new grads looking to get into hospital with the hope that if we train them, we won't have to worry too much about them leaving and might finally have some stability.

TL;DR Got to match the skills to the position and hope for the best.

 

[confettiflyer]

I was hired (along with another close friend of mine) to a hospital in a large health system without a residency. Coincidentally he became a Pediatric Clinical pharmacist and I got the Clinical Informatics job. We are new grads straight out of school. So no, a residency is not necessary. But what is necessary is motivation, ambition, dedication, a good attitude, interpersonal skills, aptitude for learning, thick skin, leadership qualities, intelligence and a little moxi - not in that order.


Funny thing is that I was talking to my clincal supervisor (my boss) yesterday about some interviews he was doing for our new positions, and he adamantly believes that people who do residencies "need the extra help" to get ahead. I could agree to that but I am biased. I do know of some "drones" that went the residency route because that was just the step to take to get to the end position of clinical pharmacist. It is however, absolutely possible to jump in head first and build yourself up from the ground up. I'd say with my friend who showed all the qualities of being an excellent pharmacist to be promoted so quickly to the Peds role....he is impressive.

I agree here, but the problem is the whole "foot in door" thing. It's increasingly difficult finding jobs for those fresh out of school, even going from one year to the next. What applied in 2011 doesn't apply in 2012 and would be completely out of date come 2013.

As an inside candidate known to directors in my area, I consider myself a shoe-in for at least an interview; however, as an outside candidate applying to an area I have no direct ties to, getting a phone call back is difficult.

Residency gives you that path to enter a new market/area because it's almost expected that these hospitals won't know their candidates. This puts all the candidates on equal footing vs. the labor market where there'd be strong bias for who you know.

Just my $.02 and what I've been encountering.

 

[SHC1984]

All my professors here told me that if you apply for a residency AND a job and got both you have to go into the residency. They told me it's professional sucide to take the job over the residency if you got the residency.

Anyone here ever took a job over a residency that they matched for? Anything bad happen?

 

[Rph888]

I agree here, but the problem is the whole "foot in door" thing. It's increasingly difficult finding jobs for those fresh out of school, even going from one year to the next. What applied in 2011 doesn't apply in 2012 and would be completely out of date come 2013.

As an inside candidate known to directors in my area, I consider myself a shoe-in for at least an interview; however, as an outside candidate applying to an area I have no direct ties to, getting a phone call back is difficult.

Residency gives you that path to enter a new market/area because it's almost expected that these hospitals won't know their candidates. This puts all the candidates on equal footing vs. the labor market where there'd be strong bias for who you know.

Just my $.02 and what I've been encountering.

So whats the plan confetti? I know you dont want to stay in the armpit that is philly. you know your escape back California will be a reach at best for hospital work. Are you going to gamble on a residency that is declining in value?--remember the #of PGY1 are increasing substantially.

 

[Rph888]

All my professors here told me that if you apply for a residency AND a job and got both you have to go into the residency. They told me it's professional sucide to take the job over the residency if you got the residency.

Anyone here ever took a job over a residency that they matched for? Anything bad happen?

i believe residency matching is a contractual process, if that makes a difference.

 

[confettiflyer]

So whats the plan confetti? I know you dont want to stay in the armpit that is philly. you know your escape back California will be a reach at best for hospital work. Are you going to gamble on a residency that is declining in value?--remember the #of PGY1 are increasing substantially.

if we're talking about rarity, PGY1's are relatively more rare than your "run of the mill" pharmd's.

That said, i'm not a believer in the gospel of residency as being the end-all/be-all of pharmacy.

I'm a little more on the pragmatic side, so depending on what's on my table come march 8th, i'll be picking the option that gets me back to california the quickest with my sanity intact and the most money in my pocket (in that order). if that means a match card, so be it.

as for philly....some thugs dragged a caucasian man out of a cab and started beating him up 2 blocks from my old apartment yesterday (high end neighborhood, or so they say) while shouting racial epithets. luckily the cab driver grabbed a tire iron and went to town on them. welcome to the city of brotherly love

 

[StevePerry]

All my professors here told me that if you apply for a residency AND a job and got both you have to go into the residency. They told me it's professional sucide to take the job over the residency if you got the residency.

Anyone here ever took a job over a residency that they matched for? Anything bad happen?

Far be it from me to discourage any of you from doing residencies and staying the hell out of the work force for another year ( ), but I know of people that have done this with absolutely no consequences whatsoever and are doing quite well -- as recent as last year. If you get a clinical job, you take it. Period. Staff gig? Ehhh....consider the residency at this point IMO. If you're sharp and smoother than Quagmire himself, it may still be possible to track down a clinical gig at the Kruger Industries type hospitals, which honestly is more fun, less pressure and definitely far less bull**** sometimes... you could even start with a part time / per diem clinical evening/weekend-type gig and mix it w/ some retail shifts for a full paycheck til you can kiss enough ass to find greener pastures.

Consider your geographic surroundings though -- if you must practice in SoCal, NY, Chi Town, Jersey, etc. do the residency unless you have a solid F/T clinical offer (doubtful, maybe staff...) and even then be careful of burning bridges in competitive areas...

 

[StevePerry]

if we're talking about rarity, PGY1's are relatively more rare than your "run of the mill" pharmd's.

That said, i'm not a believer in the gospel of residency as being the end-all/be-all of pharmacy.

I'm a little more on the pragmatic side, so depending on what's on my table come march 8th, i'll be picking the option that gets me back to california the quickest with my sanity intact and the most money in my pocket (in that order). if that means a match card, so be it.

as for philly....some thugs dragged a caucasian man out of a cab and started beating him up 2 blocks from my old apartment yesterday (high end neighborhood, or so they say) while shouting racial epithets. luckily the cab driver grabbed a tire iron and went to town on them. welcome to the city of brotherly love

Are your DOP connections in Philly or out west? I know better than to doubt you, but I will be extremely impressed if you weasel back into the market of markets, the hallowed OC market with no residency...

 

[SHC1984]

Far be it from me to discourage any of you from doing residencies and staying the hell out of the work force for another year ( ), but I know of people that have done this with absolutely no consequences whatsoever and are doing quite well -- as recent as last year. If you get a clinical job, you take it. Period. Staff gig? Ehhh....consider the residency at this point IMO. If you're sharp and smoother than Quagmire himself, it may still be possible to track down a clinical gig at the Kruger Industries type hospitals, which honestly is more fun, less pressure and definitely far less bull**** sometimes... you could even start with a part time / per diem clinical evening/weekend-type gig and mix it w/ some retail shifts for a full paycheck til you can kiss enough ass to find greener pastures.

Consider your geographic surroundings though -- if you must practice in SoCal, NY, Chi Town, Jersey, etc. do the residency unless you have a solid F/T clinical offer (doubtful, maybe staff...) and even then be careful of burning bridges in competitive areas...

Where can you go to find a clinical job without residency experience???

I don't feel ready to be a clinical pharmacist. I did an IPPE at a hospital and did a formal case on a patient. My preceptor asked me a million questions...I answer about 30% correctly. I don't think that is clinical pharmacist material...I don't feel ready to be a clinical pharmacist. But you recommend taking the job if you get it?

 

[SHC1984]

Oh and what is wrong with a staff position? I don't think I would mind that.

 

[owlegrad]

Oh and what is wrong with a staff position? I don't think I would mind that.

Something we agree on.

 

[SHC1984]

Something we agree on.

Maybe LOW job security? Easily replaced? That's what I am thinking.....The MORE you know, the MORE you do, the harder your job, the less likely you will be replaced. I think thats what he means. If it's an easy job and anyone can do it then you will be replace very quickly I am sure.

 

[pharm B]

Maybe LOW job security? Easily replaced? That's what I am thinking.....The MORE you know, the MORE you do, the harder your job, the less likely you will be replaced. I think thats what he means. If it's an easy job and anyone can do it then you will be replace very quickly I am sure.

I guess it depends on the facility. The staff pharmacists at a hospital I know have been there for decades. They only "lost" one because he moved to another state for family reasons. Seems like if you get a good groove going as a staff pharmacist, you can lock it in (at the right facility).

As far as replacing somebody quickly: I know hospitals still track prescription fill rate, etc, but are they as hard core as retail? I never got that feeling, but I know I have limited experience.

Either way, for me a staff position would beat the pants out of CVS any day of the week.

If I got a hybrid clinical/staff role guaranteed right out of school, I don't think I'd participate in the Match.

 

[rxlea]

What happened to working from home, SHC?

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

 

[confettiflyer]

Are your DOP connections in Philly or out west? I know better than to doubt you, but I will be extremely impressed if you weasel back into the market of markets, the hallowed OC market with no residency...

Haha, I am not god-like enough to get into the OC market without a residency, so yes my connections are in the philly area. The whole "physically being here" part is what kills my OC connections, but oh well.

 

[SHC1984]

What happened to working from home, SHC?

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

That's still a good choice for me, but I know everyone else wants that too so I gotta look into other options. Just in case.

 

[SHC1984]

I guess it depends on the facility. The staff pharmacists at a hospital I know have been there for decades. They only "lost" one because he moved to another state for family reasons. Seems like if you get a good groove going as a staff pharmacist, you can lock it in (at the right facility).

As far as replacing somebody quickly: I know hospitals still track prescription fill rate, etc, but are they as hard core as retail? I never got that feeling, but I know I have limited experience.

Either way, for me a staff position would beat the pants out of CVS any day of the week.

If I got a hybrid clinical/staff role guaranteed right out of school, I don't think I'd participate in the Match.

I would do staff in a hospital over any retail for sure, but I just heard from my professors that if you match a residency that you applied for you can't turn it down for anything.

Have you heard that? Do you prefer a clinical or staff position? I would really take either but I don't feel very confident about the clinical after my first hospital experience last month!

 

[PharmaTope]

I would do staff in a hospital over any retail for sure, but I just heard from my professors that if you match a residency that you applied for you can't turn it down for anything.

Have you heard that? Do you prefer a clinical or staff position? I would really take either but I don't feel very confident about the clinical after my first hospital experience last month!

does your professor thing slavery is legal in the usa? you can walk from any job you want. they can fire you anytime and you can fire them anytime. you didnt sign a lavish contract with bonuses and rewards. they can find another resident easily. don't believe that bull****.

take the job over residency

 

[SHC1984]

does your professor thing slavery is legal in the usa? you can walk from any job you want. they can fire you anytime and you can fire them anytime. you didnt sign a lavish contract with bonuses and rewards. they can find another resident easily. don't believe that bull****.

take the job over residency

Haha...I think you are right. I guess I just burn a bridge if I don't take the residency. But I don't think the chances of landing a clinical job is very high without a residency unless you have very good connections.

I am def going to apply for residencies and jobs and see where it goes from there...

 

[PharmaTope]

Haha...I think you are right. I guess I just burn a bridge if I don't take the residency. But I don't think the chances of landing a clinical job is very high without a residency unless you have very good connections.

I am def going to apply for residencies and jobs and see where it goes from there...

what are the chances of landing a clinical job with a residency? think about that. 1 residency = nothing these days. 2 residency will help but where you gonna find these specialty pharmacist jobs?

these clinical jobs are rarely available. take the damn job, trust me. you will be very happy earning a full paycheck instead of getting dicked around in a 1 year residency to come out when the job market is even worse than it is now for pharmacists.

 

[pharm B]

I would do staff in a hospital over any retail for sure, but I just heard from my professors that if you match a residency that you applied for you can't turn it down for anything.

From the Match's Applicant Agreement:

5. To accept appointment to the program with which I am matched. I understand that I cannot avoid accepting appointment to the program with which I am matched without a written release from the program concerned; also, that another program participating in the Match cannot offer me a position unless I have this release.

Sounds like you can legitimately withdraw, but it will involve ruffling some feathers. I would only withdraw from the Match process if it was prior to ranking.

Have you heard that? Do you prefer a clinical or staff position? I would really take either but I don't feel very confident about the clinical after my first hospital experience last month!

I would prefer clinical or a hybrid position. In all honesty, though, I'll take the job that's offered. Like I said, I'm still on the fence about the residency idea. Seems like you can resist it now, but it's gaining momentum (despite an overwhelming lack of residency positions for the number of applicants).

 

[pharm B]

what are the chances of landing a clinical job with a residency? think about that. 1 residency = nothing these days. 2 residency will help but where you gonna find these specialty pharmacist jobs?

Based on what I've seen with my preceptors (who hire pharmacists), a resident is a good potential hire. They've been impressed. One person even switched his stance on residencies altogether when he saw what could come out of the pipeline.

I do have limited exposure, but similar thoughts have been voiced here as well.

 

[Rph888]

if we're talking about rarity, PGY1's are relatively more rare than your "run of the mill" pharmd's.

That said, i'm not a believer in the gospel of residency as being the end-all/be-all of pharmacy.

I'm a little more on the pragmatic side, so depending on what's on my table come march 8th, i'll be picking the option that gets me back to california the quickest with my sanity intact and the most money in my pocket (in that order). if that means a match card, so be it.

as for philly....some thugs dragged a caucasian man out of a cab and started beating him up 2 blocks from my old apartment yesterday (high end neighborhood, or so they say) while shouting racial epithets. luckily the cab driver grabbed a tire iron and went to town on them. welcome to the city of brotherly love

so you are currently interviewing for residencies and will come up with a rank list by the 9th. if you feel you cant get a good one, its California full steam ahead--retail or hospital.

Ive never been to Orange County, but it sure must be nice there.

 

[SHC1984]

So if you matched for a residency and got a clinical position you would still go with the residency? May I ask why?

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

I pulled out of the match right before the deadline and ended up accepting a hybrid inpatient position. I love my job, pulling out of the match was the right decision for my situation.

 

[DelawareStudent]

if we're talking about rarity, PGY1's are relatively more rare than your "run of the mill" pharmd's.

That said, i'm not a believer in the gospel of residency as being the end-all/be-all of pharmacy.

I'm a little more on the pragmatic side, so depending on what's on my table come march 8th, i'll be picking the option that gets me back to california the quickest with my sanity intact and the most money in my pocket (in that order). if that means a match card, so be it.

as for philly....some thugs dragged a caucasian man out of a cab and started beating him up 2 blocks from my old apartment yesterday (high end neighborhood, or so they say) while shouting racial epithets. luckily the cab driver grabbed a tire iron and went to town on them. welcome to A City

Corrected - don't hate the city, hate your neighborhood. Especially if your're going to Temple.

 

[SHC1984]

Yeah you could do that if you got hired BEFORE you matched. If you didn't pull out and matched and got hired later what would you do?

I guess my real question is what is the consequences of matching to a top residency and then not going.

 

[Dalteparin]

I guess my real question is what is the consequences of matching to a top residency and then not going.

Aside from burning a bridge at a top program and being blackballed by that hospital and everybody who hears the story, not much.

Matching at any program and then refusing to take the position is a huge faux pas. You had better have a grave reason - as in, somebody is actually IN their grave - to not accept a match. Bear in mind that if you don't take the match, the program is left in the lurch and has to scramble to find somebody to fill your spot. Besides, if you really do match at a top program, that may open more doors than any other job.

In sum: if you don't like a specific residency, don't rank them. If you don't want to do a residency, drop out of the match.

 

[confettiflyer]

Corrected - don't hate the city, hate your neighborhood. Especially if your're going to Temple.

Philadelphia: 30 murders in 23 days!

reread my post, the racial beat down happened in the crown jewel of philadelphia: rittenhouse sq. (which likes to pretend it's like rodeo drive or 5th ave NYC).

 

[confettiflyer]

so you are currently interviewing for residencies and will come up with a rank list by the 9th. if you feel you cant get a good one, its California full steam ahead--retail or hospital.

Ive never been to Orange County, but it sure must be nice there.

clarification: interviewing for residencies, poking around for jobs, will make a decision by match card submission day. i'll weigh any job offers as of 3/8 vs. residencies and decide if it's worth it to enter the match.

i'll make sure the job offers stay solid through match day march 21 in the event i don't match, so they serve as backup.

and orange county is beautiful and centrally located to everything. make an excuse to come out to a convention/conference in anaheim or san diego and check out paradise.

 

[SHC1984]

Aside from burning a bridge at a top program and being blackballed by that hospital and everybody who hears the story, not much.

Matching at any program and then refusing to take the position is a huge faux pas. You had better have a grave reason - as in, somebody is actually IN their grave - to not accept a match. Bear in mind that if you don't take the match, the program is left in the lurch and has to scramble to find somebody to fill your spot. Besides, if you really do match at a top program, that may open more doors than any other job.

In sum: if you don't like a specific residency, don't rank them. If you don't want to do a residency, drop out of the match.

Thanks for the response. I would not do that. I was just wondering, the only way I would be tempted to do that is if I got hired by a hospital without a residency. The chances of that happening for anyone is slim to none anyways, so I don't really have to worry about that. I would choose a residency over a retail job in a second! haha...

 

[njac]

Philadelphia: 30 murders in 23 days!

reread my post, the racial beat down happened in the crown jewel of philadelphia: rittenhouse sq. (which likes to pretend it's like rodeo drive or 5th ave NYC).

I'm staying with my parents in Rittenhouse now (been here since Weds)

I freaking love Philly. But I only come for a couple days at a time and get to stay in one of the best neighborhoods in the country - if only I lived half a block from a Barnes and Noble and an Anthropologie in my real life...

 

[Glycerin]

Umm . . . you mean Alabama.

Houston, we have a problem. Are students young enough now to not know a line from one of the best movies from the 90s?

I feel old.

 

[rxlea]

Houston, we have a problem. Are students young enough now to not know a line from one of the best movies from the 90s?

I feel old.

That's what I was thinking!

I lol'd. HARD.

 

[confettiflyer]

I'm staying with my parents in Rittenhouse now (been here since Weds)

I freaking love Philly. But I only come for a couple days at a time and get to stay in one of the best neighborhoods in the country - if only I lived half a block from a Barnes and Noble and an Anthropologie in my real life...

i loved philly for a month...tourist eyes! then you start to notice all the poor attitudes, crappy government, high taxes (6.5%+ flat tax on income (city + state), holy sheeeeets, sucks if you make <$75k), and thug children who wander around like free range chickens and beat people up at random.

Oh, and the stench of urine during the summer is oppressive.

The only people who love philly don't actually live there.

IMO of course

PM me and we can get a beer

 

[njac]

i loved philly for a month...tourist eyes! then you start to notice all the poor attitudes, crappy government, high taxes (6.5%+ flat tax on income (city + state), holy sheeeeets, sucks if you make <$75k), and thug children who wander around like free range chickens and beat people up at random.

Oh, and the stench of urine during the summer is oppressive.

The only people who love philly don't actually live there.

IMO of course

PM me and we can get a beer

Flew out this am - waiting for a flight to Burbank now but definitely next time! The taxes are actually much cheaper there than Chicago... It's a pretty affordable city compared to some other options.

 

[Its Z]

Houston, we have a problem. Are students young enough now to not know a line from one of the best movies from the 90s?

I feel old.

Yup....i didnt know how to respond..... A classic line like that and he tried to correct me...

 

[confettiflyer]

Yup....i didnt know how to respond..... A classic line like that and he tried to correct me...

should have used some justin bieber lyrics

 

[Glycerin]

Yup....i didnt know how to respond..... A classic line like that and he tried to correct me...

That saddest part is he was the one that mentioned "Get down! Shut up!" in the first place!

 

[joetrisman]

should have used some justin bieber lyrics

 

[MountainPharmD]

This time we decided no residency trained pharmacists. We interviewed new grads looking to get into hospital with the hope that if we train them, we won't have to worry too much about them leaving and might finally have some stability.

TL;DR Got to match the skills to the position and hope for the best.

I am not a new grad but this is what i hoping to find. Some place willing to give me a chance. Just because someone has all the degrees, residencies, and initials after their name doesnt mean they are the best choice. You cant get a degree in motivation, desire or work ethic. I've seen HR and hiring managers get all googly eyed over degrees and initials only to find the person was a complete idiot.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

Oh, I was responding as if I was Gump, because he is from Alabama. But yes, Lt. Dan does say Arkansas in that quote.

 

[ucrx]

what are the chances of landing a clinical job with a residency? think about that. 1 residency = nothing these days. 2 residency will help but where you gonna find these specialty pharmacist jobs?

They're out there. Trust me they're out there. They aren't everywhere, so it can be difficult if you are looking to stay in a specific area. Of course, this varies by specialty. Critical care isn't a specialty that will get you a ton of job offers these days. I think psych is similar. Transplant? Awesome prospects right now.

A few other thoughts reading this thread:

-If you match with a residency and then break the binding agreement, it isn't as simple as just making one hospital unhappy. If you're looking to do anything in hospital and the job you take isn't necessarily going to be your career, you can be doing yourself some serious damage. It's been said a million times, but I'll say it again: Pharmacy is a small world.

-For those who really just want staff positions, consider where hospital pharmacy is going with CPOE. Many hospitals are shifting to more of a hybrid clinical/staff model, where pharmacists are assigned to cover services or units and verify the orders for those patients in addition to clinical duties. Even in hospitals that have strict clinical and staff roles, staff pharmacists will need to be able to provide some clinical services to justify their position. Who needs someone to just verify computer orders without critically thinking? And with the amount of PGY1 residency grads out there, these positions can start being filled by residency trained pharmacists.

I'm not by any means saying residency is for everyone. Make sure residency is what you want to do or you are setting yourself up for a miserable year. Don't just do residency because you feel it is what you are supposed to do.