How bad does a remediation look?

[genessis42]

How bad does it look to have a summer remediation? I have to do it because I missed the passing mark by 1%

Does it lock you out of good fields?

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[sab3156]

Good fields? Good for you is going to be different than good for someone else.

Do you mean competitive fields? If so, then your answer is: almost certainly yes.

If your transcript shows that you failed a course and remediated, that is not going to look good for competitive fields or for competitive programs in uncompetitive fields.

 

[genessis42]

It's a good thing I'm an M1 and still have time to get study habits down. I think it would've been even worst if I was an M2 and had to remediate something that summer.

I have heard that you should never be "just" passing all your courses though.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Depends on the class. OMM? matters way less. Itll say PR on your transcript (pass with remediation) at least at my school it does. OMM grade is essentially meaningless unless you maybe want PMR or God forbid you actually want to do OMM fellowship then it might matter

 

[BorntobeDO?]

How bad does it look to have a summer remediation? I have to do it because I missed the passing mark by 1%

Does it lock you out of good fields?

Depends on how your school lists the remediation. If it doesn't stick out on transcript, no one will notice. That said a C never looks good tho.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Your goal is to finish med school regardless of how bad it looks...

 

[BorntobeDO?]

It's a good thing I'm an M1 and still have time to get study habits down. I think it would've been even worst if I was an M2 and had to remediate something that summer.

I have heard that you should never be "just" passing all your courses though.

You are correct, especially when you end up remediating you realize how ridiculous a strategy it is to try and ''just' go for the 70. I have always recommended shooting for an 80 or above before taking the foot off the gas.

That said figure out how it looks on your transcript, some schools make it more noticeable than others.

 

[genessis42]

I think the worst thing would be if someone failed a remediation. At that point, you should probably know what went wrong in study style

It's difficult to ask a med school to give a 3rd chance.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Depends on the class. OMM? matters way less. Itll say PR on your transcript (pass with remediation) at least at my school it does. OMM grade is essentially meaningless unless you maybe want PMR or God forbid you actually want to do OMM fellowship then it might matter

I asked my Dean this question last week and he indicated it will be documented in your Dean's Letter,(MSPE). This is a red flag and you will get screened by many programs. My sons FM residency got 2,000+ applications for 7 slots. Why would a program take a chance when they dont have to?

 

[OneSummerPhoton]

I barely passed (3 points) on the lectures portion of this semester and I'm freaking out. I'm going to take this winter break to think about what I can do to learn better and perform better. I've been reluctant to use Anki, but it seems like there is a first time for everything.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I asked my Dean this question last week and he indicated it will be documented in your Dean's Letter,(MSPE). This is a red flag and you will get screened by many programs. My sons FM residency got 2,000+ applications for 7 slots. Why would a program take a chance when they dont have to?

Over OMM? A lot of PDs dont even know what OMM is. I doubt one PR on a transcript in class that no one cares about would make a huge difference

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Over OMM? A lot of PDs dont even know what OMM is. I doubt one PR on a transcript in class that no one cares about would make a huge difference

Flunking the class that distinguishes you from an MD? MDs dont know what or how extensive your OMM class is. I sat on a resident selection committee and I can tell you that any failure is a red flag and will be questioned. It would be a mistake to think it's no big deal. Applicant numbers are going through the roof.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Flunking the class that distinguishes you from an MD? MDs dont know what or how extensive your OMM class is. I sat on a resident selection committee and I can tell you that any failure is a red flag and will be questioned. It would be a mistake to think it's no big deal. Applicant numbers are going through the roof.

Whatever you say man

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Some schools do not report remediations on your MSPE. They leave that section blank. I would check with someone who actually knows at your school and get an official transcript sent to yourself.

From the trail I think you will find most residencies don't care to much about an early remediation. Do that in 3rd year or remediate multiple classes and then there will be something to talk about.

 

[hallowmann]

Depends on the field, but it's a red flag regardless. I can say that 20-25% of my class remediated OPP one semester in first year due to a ridiculous final exam. Those that made it all the way through matched OK in the end, just don't fail another and do well on boards.

 

[sab3156]

Whatever you say man

He is right. You probably will still match SOMEWHERE with a couple course failures, but any failure is still a red flag. The programs that take people with course failures also may not even exist in your specialty of choice, or may be very rare.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Whatever you say man

Whatever you say man.....says the med student to the faculty member with nearly 30 yrs in medical education. Oh, I'm sure it's possible to match somewhere in something with a course failure and remediation on your MSPE. My school lists them. I would not recommend a failure as I guarantee it will be asked during the interview. Health problems, family crisis, other explanations will be helpful to your cause. Programs are looking for a good fit to their program. Hard worker, approachable, kind, works well with others, and being able to pass specialty boards, are all important. If you have a failure, this may be considered a risk to not passing specialty boards. This statistic is VERY important to programs. If you have a failure, I would audition and lobby hard at your first choice and plan B programs. Good luck and best wishes, Man.

 

[Goro]

Flunking the class that distinguishes you from an MD? MDs dont know what or how extensive your OMM class is. I sat on a resident selection committee and I can tell you that any failure is a red flag and will be questioned. It would be a mistake to think it's no big deal. Applicant numbers are going through the roof.

It actually takes some talent to fail an OMM class, even with the very subjective grading schema by the Faculty.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Whatever you say man.....says the med student to the faculty member with nearly 30 yrs in medical education. Oh, I'm sure it's possible to match somewhere in something with a course failure and remediation on your MSPE. My school lists them. I would not recommend a failure as I guarantee it will be asked during the interview. Health problems, family crisis, other explanations will be helpful to your cause. Programs are looking for a good fit to their program. Hard worker, approachable, kind, works well with others, and being able to pass specialty boards, are all important. If you have a failure, this may be considered a risk to not passing specialty boards. This statistic is VERY important to programs. If you have a failure, I would audition and lobby hard at your first choice and plan B programs. Good luck and best wishes, Man.

I think we need to be a bit more specific with reasoning. A failure (i.e. a course that you did not pass remediation) is definitely a red flag. A course that you remediate, may or may not be a red flag depending on how your school lists it and what course it is. I disagree with lumping someone who failed (i.e. did not pass remediation and/or was ineligible due to extremely low scores) in with someone who remediated. One of those students is much more concerning than the other.

Also, no one will convince me that a remediation in OMM will cause any amount of difficulty in passing future specialty boards. Especially if actual board exams are passed on first attempt, and there is no pattern, I see no reason for concern. I still don't recommend that anyone fail a course, but I don't think its the huge deal to most programs that your statement implies it to be.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I think we need to be a bit more specific with reasoning. A failure (i.e. a course that you did not pass remediation) is definitely a red flag. A course that you remediate, may or may not be a red flag depending on how your school lists it and what course it is. I disagree with lumping someone who failed (i.e. did not pass remediation and/or was ineligible due to extremely low scores) in with someone who remediated. One of those students is much more concerning than the other.

Also, no one will convince me that a remediation in OMM will cause any amount of difficulty in passing future specialty boards. Especially if actual board exams are passed on first attempt, and there is no pattern, I see no reason for concern. I still don't recommend that anyone fail a course, but I don't think its the huge deal to most programs that your statement implies it to be.

Point taken. My school will list the course failure and the successful remediation. Some dont, as you correctly point out. I think many programs would want some answers to a remediated course. My former program would. Applicants with no failures, or remediatioms are not scarce. What is the old saw on SDN about the best predictor of board scores? Pre clinical grades?
As far as failing OMM not being a concern for PDs, most have no clue about the course, the number of credits, hours, labs, etc. I think most would have some questions.

 

[Sunde]

@Angus Avagadro , you are quite off-base here. And come off uninformed. Almost as if you don't actually understand what your own Dean has told you. Sorry to be blunt. I've seen you post many times regarding these sorts of issues, and you simply seem out of touch.

As @sab3156 mentioned, a course failure (even with remediation) will more than likely hurt the chances of applicants when applying to 1) competitive specialties or 2) top programs within all specialties. Most DO students would not be considered at these programs anyway.

However, a single course failure in the first semester of medical school (as long as it is passed during remediation) is not going to really hurt the chances for obtaining a residency for most students if he/she passes all of their subsequent courses, does well on Level 1/Step 1, does well in clinical rotations.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

@Angus Avagadro , you are quite off-base here. And come off uninformed. Almost as if you don't actually understand what your own Dean has told you. Sorry to be blunt. I've seen you post many times regarding these sorts of issues, and you simply seem out of touch.

As @sab3156 mentioned, a course failure (even with remediation) will more than likely hurt the chances of applicants when applying to 1) competitive specialties or 2) top programs within all specialties. Most DO students would not be considered at these programs anyway.

However, a single course failure in the first semester of medical school (as long as it is passed during remediation) is not going to really hurt the chances for obtaining a residency for most students if he/she passes all of their subsequent courses, does well on Level 1/Step 1, does well in clinical rotations.

Ok. I accept your opinion. What facts do you base it on? I dont agree that I am uninformed. I stand by my assertion that any failure or remediation will be questioned, especially in competetive specialties and programs. There is no shortage of applicants who have passed all their courses and done well on the boards. If I appear misguided or uninformed, I welcome any information you might provide.

 

[sab3156]

@Angus Avagadro , you are quite off-base here. And come off uninformed. Almost as if you don't actually understand what your own Dean has told you. Sorry to be blunt. I've seen you post many times regarding these sorts of issues, and you simply seem out of touch.

As @sab3156 mentioned, a course failure (even with remediation) will more than likely hurt the chances of applicants when applying to 1) competitive specialties or 2) top programs within all specialties. Most DO students would not be considered at these programs anyway.

However, a single course failure in the first semester of medical school (as long as it is passed during remediation) is not going to really hurt the chances for obtaining a residency for most students if he/she passes all of their subsequent courses, does well on Level 1/Step 1, does well in clinical rotations.

I think @Angus Avagadro is also saying the same thing. We are all saying the same thing, I guess... which is that you will more than likely match somewhere, but it may not be in your specialty of choice, and it may not be in your program of choice. You may be forced into a certain tier of programs with certain specialties even if you don't want to be. I don't think anyone is claiming that you will remain unmatched simply because of a course failure.

 

[Sunde]

Ok. I accept your opinion. What facts do you base it on? I dont agree that I am uninformed. I stand by my assertion that any failure or remediation will be questioned, especially in competetive specialties and programs. There is no shortage of applicants who have passed all their courses and done well on the boards. If I appear misguided or uninformed, I welcome any information you might provide.

You are coming off in a way where these applicants are going to be instantly screened out because of a single course failure (my apologies if I am not interpreting correctly). This is not true, unless we are talking about competitive specialties/programs. Somebody who failed one course in the first semester of medical school, who then goes on to obtain a 3.0+ GPA, does well on the boards, does well in rotations, shows that the student moved on and improved from the failure (which is what OP can do). And in a situation like this, it would probably not even be brought up in residency interviews. In fact, I've read numerous accounts on this site from applicants who failed courses early on, and it was literally never spoken of during interviews. Course failures are NOT anywhere near the same level as board failures when it comes to screening out applicants.

I think @Angus Avagadro is also saying the same thing. We are all saying the same thing, I guess... which is that you will more than likely match somewhere, but it may not be in your specialty of choice, and it may not be in your program of choice. You may be forced into a certain tier of programs with certain specialties even if you don't want to be. I don't think anyone is claiming that you will remain unmatched simply because of a course failure.

Agreed.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You are coming off in a way where these applicants are going to be instantly screened out because of a single course failure (my apologies if I am not interpreting correctly). This is not true, unless we are talking about competitive specialties/programs. Somebody who failed one course in the first semester of medical school, who then goes on to obtain a 3.0+ GPA, does well on the boards, does well in rotations, shows that the student moved on and improved from the failure (which is what OP can do). And in a situation like this, it would probably not even be brought up in residency interviews. In fact, I've read numerous accounts on this site from applicants who failed courses early on, and it was literally never spoken of during interviews. Course failures are NOT anywhere near the same level as board failures when it comes to screening out applicants.


Agreed.

I'm not coming off in a way that an applicant will be screened for a remediation. Never said that. I'm saying it will be questioned, as I said earlier. Is there an explanation? Did the student have mono? Family crisis? Course failures and remediation present red flags at many programs. There are many more applicants this year than last, and there will be more next year. Thinking a remediation is no big deal if everything else is ok I believe is risky. Over 2 000 applications to my son's FM residency for 7 spots this year is why I have taken this position. What happened 2 or 3yrs ago to people who matched on SDN is ancient history.

 

[Goro]

you need to stop projecting your insecurities onto what Angus has said.

He didn't say that failing a course is a death sentence, he just said it's a red flag

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Just an anecdote but I know a DO from my school with 3 preclinical failures, no connections, and below average boards that is currently at Georgetown in a moderately competitive specialty. It's a red flag, but not a death sentence.

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

Failed M1 class with passed remediation is a pink flag at best, it happens a lot more often than you think and I wouldn’t close ANY doors yet if you become a stud from here on out. If you do well on boards, clerkships etc you‘ll be happy where you end up. If you don’t change what lead to this failure then it’s a different story and the red flags will pile up.

 

[Sunde]

you need to stop projecting your insecurities onto what Angus has said.

He didn't say that failing a course is a death sentence, he just said it's a red flag

Offering realistic advice = projecting insecurities because it's helping clarify reality? Getting the most accurate information out there is most important, even if it's the statement of a faculty member that needs expansion.

 

[Goro]

Offering realistic advice = projecting insecurities because it's helping clarify reality? Getting the most accurate information out there is most important, even if it's the statement of a faculty member that needs expansion.

Do think that maybe, just maybe, that the Faculty have an edge in the knowledge base because we actually see what happens to our students?

I looked up the fate of a few remediators, and their fate. Most went into Family med. Thus, their backgrounds weren't lethal. But the vast majority didn't get into the DO friendly non-PC specialties either.

I was commenting more at the emotion that some here went after Angus, in thier righteous outrage.

Not an argument from authority, but one from experience, bitter experience at that.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Offering realistic advice = projecting insecurities because it's helping clarify reality? Getting the most accurate information out there is most important, even if it's the statement of a faculty member that needs expansion.

I'm not looking to get into a fight with anyone. It's my advice, which I explained and stand by. Since it's free on an anonymous forum, well, you get what you pay for. I'm trying to sound the alarm about increasing numbers of applicants. PDs will be looking at applicants this year more closely than before because they will have to. Any red flags will be noticed. How others matched recently is ancient history with the extra apps this year. If you think I'm full of it, it's ok. I'm not offended.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Failed M1 class with passed remediation is a pink flag at best, it happens a lot more often than you think and I wouldn’t close ANY doors yet if you become a stud from here on out. If you do well on boards, clerkships etc you‘ll be happy where you end up. If you don’t change what lead to this failure then it’s a different story and the red flags will pile up.

Course failures and remediation are more common than I think? Wow. I would think it would only be in the 5 to 10 percent range at most. I admit I dont follow our schools number of failures and remediations that closely.
OMM I think has the most. When I see someone failing one of the courses I teach, they usually are repeat offenders in other courses. I would think a single failure/ remediation would be rare, but I'll look into it.

 

[Goro]

Course failures and remediation are more common than I think? Wow. I would think it would only be in the 5 to 10 percent range at most. I admit I dont follow our schools number of failures and remediations that closely.
OMM I think has the most. When I see someone failing one of the courses I teach, they usually are repeat offenders in other courses. I would think a single failure/ remediation would be rare, but I'll look into it.

At my school, courses failures are RARE. Maybe 2-4%, tops. And these are almost always in our systems based courses, not OMM/OMT or the Clinical Medicine course. People who fail the latter two have global deficits and tend to withdraw or get dismissed.

But, from anecdotal reports form SDNers, the course failure rate can go as high as 20%! These seem to be at the newer schools, or those that have rotten faculty.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

More people fail courses than you think. Most people are prideful, never mention it. They get second chance at remediation.. But it is not fun at all. I have seen students get nervous breakdown before their performance committee meeting.

But you just have to move on. Thats med school/being a doctor for you.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

At my school, courses failures are RARE. Maybe 2-4%, tops. And these are almost always in our systems based courses, not OMM/OMT or the Clinical Medicine course. People who fail the latter two have global deficits and tend to withdraw or get dismissed.

But, from anecdotal reports form SDNers, the course failure rate can go as high as 20%! These seem to be at the newer schools, or those that have rotten faculty.

I’d go with rotten faculty... Word on the street ~40 peeps failed anatomy in my class. This was with <10 A’s and <15 B’s in the entire class. I think around 20-30 classmates have SMPs too so the majority of A’s and B’s came from that camp.

Your school’s OMM might not fail that many students but I’ve heard that course is a pressure cooker for what it is...

 

[hungrydoc710]

Remediation, withdrawals, failed boards, etc. are all equivalent to Red Flags

 

[deleted645092]

Can’t weigh in regarding chances at residency down the line since I’ll be applying next year but I can tell you course failures can affect things that in turn will affect residency;

-If you end up failing remediation then you get held back a year which will affect your future.
-At least at my school, you’ll get held back next year if you fail an additional class during second semester.
-If you fail a class during second year you’ll get delayed for taking boards because you have to remediate first, and depending on your school’s rotation policy rotations might get delayed until you take your boards. So in this case you have to weigh the possibility of graduating late vs. having an abbreviated dedicated board study period because remediation will take up all your time.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Remediation, withdrawals, failed boards, etc. are all equivalent to Red Flags

Agreed but he/she has to pass medical school in order for organize these red flags in an application.