how bad is statistics--both in undergrad and grad school?

[PizzaButt]

Hi there,

I'm 30, married, non-traditional clinical psych (PhD) applicant, who was not a psych major in college. I have to take stats for the first time as a pre-req in order to apply to PhD programs. I just got an intro to stats book, to see what stats is all about, and it scared me. This stuff looks really hard, and this is just an intro to stats book I got! I have never taken stats before. The highest level math I took in college was advanced algebra.

Can anyone tell me how hard undergrad stats is and how hard stats is in grad school? As a PhD student, how many stats classes will you be taking? What level of math do you need to understand intro to stats? I barely understand anything in this book!

Also, as I do my pre-reqs, do I need to do stats first, or can I take abnormal and personality first, etc.--do all psych classes have stats in them--meaning, do I need to take stats first in order to do well in other stats classes, beyond intro to psych?

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[irish80122]

I can only speak for undergraduate stats but normally it isn't too bad. It may look like Greek to you now but that is probably because you haven't had stats before. You will be able to manage. I also doubt that stats will be a prereq to other courses. Good luck!

 

[PizzaButt]

Stats just looks really boring. Is that a bad attitude to have toward it? I took all the pre-med pre-reqs, including organic chemistry, which I hated, and I have to say that stats looks just as bad as that.

 

[Ollie123]

Did you not take more advanced math because you just didn't have to, or because you aren't a math person?

The kind of low-level stats most people do in undergrad should not really involve anything beyond algebra.

As for how difficult it is, that depends on the school and the prof. Mine was hard, but that's because my prof was an imbecile so it was entirely self-taught for me. Still managed to do fine. Stats books can look more intimidating than they actually are. A lot of people find it boring, but in my opinion at least its one of the most important classes to take. Your understanding of articles will be very limited if you don't understand stats (my understanding sure is).

You generally have some options in grad school regarding stats, but the minimum I've seen is 2 semesters of stats classes, though its often incorporated into many many other courses. I'm hoping to take some advanced classes in stats, so I will probably take more like 4-5 (maybe some through biostats since psych departments usually don't offer TOO much in that realm). I'm hoping to get an academic job though - if you want to go into practice, I'm sure just the 2 semesters of stats would give you a solid background in what you need.

 

[positivepsych]

I'm a little confused about your background. You said you have a law degree, and took all the pre-med requirements, but in an old post you said you were a "CA-3" (3rd year anesthesiology resident).

Not to outright presume that you're a troll, but it's kind of hard to believe that you went through law school, medical school, residency, and now want to go through a third terminal degree in a completely different field? Please explain.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I'm a little confused about your background. You said you have a law degree, and took all the pre-med requirements, but in an old post you said you were a "CA-3" (3rd year anesthesiology resident).

Not to outright presume that you're a troll, but it's kind of hard to believe that you went through law school, medical school, residency, and now want to go through a third terminal degree in a completely different field? Please explain.

I don't remember where she said CA-3, but I think she was planning on med school and then went to law when she didn't get in to med.

For the OP though, it might be better if you made one big post rather than your lots of little ones. It's a little hard to follow and answer everything this way. Also, there are questions in here that we've already answered a couple times (to you directly and to other people on here). I'm not trying to be unhelpful or anything, I just am too lazy to repeat myself.

 

[NeuroPsyStudent]

Regarding terms used on this list, I think it is important to be clear about the word "troll". The word has many negative meanings outside of the web world. I looked it up on Wikepedia and discovered that in this context it refers to someone who is intentional derogatory or misleading on an online user-list. Before jumping on people with potentially misunderstood words, it would be helpful to politely ask about your concerns (and perhaps through a private message). People can come off as very harsh on this list (sometimes without intention), and frankly I think it turns some newbies off and discourages them from participating. That is a shame.

 

[PizzaButt]

I'm a little confused about your background. You said you have a law degree, and took all the pre-med requirements, but in an old post you said you were a "CA-3" (3rd year anesthesiology resident).

Not to outright presume that you're a troll, but it's kind of hard to believe that you went through law school, medical school, residency, and now want to go through a third terminal degree in a completely different field? Please explain.

Not sure why anyone would bother to read through all my old posts from over a year ago, but the CA-3 is my brother who used this account once. And I did complete a post-bacc program and applied to med school (did not get in) after I received my law degree. But now have decided on a PhD in clinical psych. Geez.

 

[KillerDiller]

Both the undergrad and grad stats classes I took started from the very beginning (we're talking an overview of the mean, mode, and median averages), so they definitely eased you in and gave you a comfort level. I think that a lot depends on the instructor, but stats itself does not have to be hard or intimidating. I actually like it. It's the only type of math outside of basic algebra that I've found I've been able to apply in "real life".

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Ok....to get back on topic......

I think part of it depends on your prof. My first stats class in undergrad I had a horrid prof (in stats, she was nice otherwise), and it was night and day for my 2nd stats class. It was like a completely different language....one of which I actually understood by then.

I think the toughest thing about grad stats is having a strong foundation. You can fill in the gaps, but you'd really do yourself a favor to get a couple good books and get comfortable with the terminology, etc. I'd suggest asking in the books thread for a good book or two to start with.

My last stats class I had an awesome professor (who has since retired) who made stats real. He would make the calculations mean something, and although it looked like greek at first, once you work through it, you can actually learn to speak the language.

So uhm....yeah, read up, stick with it, and ask around to make sure you get a prof who's style you can relate to.

-t

 

[JockNerd]

I'm just a bit curious as to why you plan on going into psych for a PhD. Stats work can range from doing only what's necessary to making sure you're totally competent to run a complete study and subsequent analysis by yourself. Some of my classmates intend to never run SPS again. On the other hand, my advisor and I agreed that I would undertake my entire undergrad analysis myself, so I learned structural equation modeling. It's not exactly light stuff, but if you're into research there's really nothing better, and I've loved every minute of it.
If you're totally opposed to the research end of things, a psych PhD may not be the way to go. There certainly ARE oppostunities for people who want to be clinicians to get into a PhD grad program, but you'll be fairly likely to lose out to someone with equivalent qualifications who's gung-ho for research. If you're interested in working in a therapeautic setting, you might consider a degree in Social Work, a PsyD, or even a certificate in marriage & family therapy.

 

[PizzaButt]

I am interested in research--I'm currently an RA in psych research and I've done medical research in the past. It's just that I've never taken a stats course before, and I got a book out of the library that's intro to stats b/c I had no clue what to expect from stats. I have no experience with it whatsoever.

I didn't understand a thing in the book, which is what prompted me to write this thread. Stats just looks really scary. I took 1 math class in college and that was it (a long time ago). Since I went into law, I didn't need math. Then, after law school when I applied to med school I didn't need to take any math for that, so I didn't. So all this math/stats is new for me. I'm more science-oriented than math-oriented. I'm just wondering how much math acumen one needs to be good at stats.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I am interested in research--I'm currently an RA in psych research and I've done medical research in the past. It's just that I've never taken a stats course before, and I got a book out of the library that's intro to stats b/c I had no clue what to expect from stats. I have no experience with it whatsoever.

I didn't understand a thing in the book, which is what prompted me to write this thread. Stats just looks really scary. I took 1 math class in college and that was it (a long time ago). Since I went into law, I didn't need math. Then, after law school when I applied to med school I didn't need to take any math for that, so I didn't. So all this math/stats is new for me. I'm more science-oriented than math-oriented. I'm just wondering how much math acumen one needs to be good at stats.

You haven't been exposed to stats as an RA?

Stats really isn't that bad. It's mostly just a set of rules. If you can use a formula, you can do stats. There's a lot of memorizing of what test is for what kind of variable, but you can get the hang of that.

 

[paramour]

I am interested in research--I'm currently an RA in psych research and I've done medical research in the past. It's just that I've never taken a stats course before, and I got a book out of the library that's intro to stats b/c I had no clue what to expect from stats. I have no experience with it whatsoever.

I didn't understand a thing in the book, which is what prompted me to write this thread. Stats just looks really scary. I took 1 math class in college and that was it (a long time ago). Since I went into law, I didn't need math. Then, after law school when I applied to med school I didn't need to take any math for that, so I didn't. So all this math/stats is new for me. I'm more science-oriented than math-oriented. I'm just wondering how much math acumen one needs to be good at stats.

You need basic algebraic skills. If you're uncomfortable with basic math/algebra, then I suggest a refresher course (either at university or through self-study) prior to taking your first stats course and/or intro stats courses that are offered by some universities. There are many of us who may think stats is easy or manageable, but there are a number of individuals who are unable to handle it when they first jump in, especially if they do not know the fundamentals or if they are simply not very comfortable with them. Your stats professor is not going to want to teach you 'everything from the beginning' (law of operations, etc.), so if you have problems handling numbers in general, you may want to reconsider . . . taking another course first, that is.

G'luck.

 

[PizzaButt]

So if I take my pre-reqs for PhD programs, such as abnormal, personality, etc. do I need to take stats first? Is stats a part of these classes? The only psych class I ever took was intro to psych, way back in undergrad, which did not involve stats.

So if I take two classes this summer, could I take abnormal and personality without taking stats until the fall? Or would this be a bad idea?

Thanks.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

So if I take my pre-reqs for PhD programs, such as abnormal, personality, etc. do I need to take stats first? Is stats a part of these classes? The only psych class I ever took was intro to psych, way back in undergrad, which did not involve stats.

So if I take two classes this summer, could I take abnormal and personality without taking stats until the fall? Or would this be a bad idea?

Thanks.

Somebody already answered this in your first thread. They said (and I agree) that grad schools will want to see stats on your transcript. If you're planning on applying for Fall 2008, the only grades you have will be the ones you did in the summer. You should make sure stats is in there. Abnormal and Personality don't require stats (there's no math required for them at all), but the fact that grad schools will be interested in your stats grade means that you need to make sure your grade is on paper before you apply (i.e., take it in the summer)

 

[PizzaButt]

Ok, so what you're saying is that it's ok if I take abnormal and personality first, in the summer, and take stats in the fall with some other psych courses. What I don't want to happen is that I don't understand large portions of abnormal and personality b/c I don't have stats. I just want to make sure that one doesn't need stats to understand these courses.

What kind of grade isn't good enough for stats and these pre-reqs? Nothing but B+ or above? Or even better?

Are there any psych courses that do require stats to understand them? I'd want to make sure to take these after I take stats. Just wondering, as I'm new to this.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Ok, so what you're saying is that it's ok if I take abnormal and personality first, in the summer, and take stats in the fall with some other psych courses. What I don't want to happen is that I don't understand large portions of abnormal and personality b/c I don't have stats. I just want to make sure that one doesn't need stats to understand these courses.

Are there any psych courses that do require stats to understand them? I'd want to make sure to take these after I take stats. Just wondering, as I'm new to this.

Actually that's the opposite of what I said. I said take it in the summer because grad schools will want your grade to be on paper by the time they get your transcript.

 

[PizzaButt]

Here's the thing, though:

I looked at all the universities/colleges in my area, and could not find any that offered stats in the summer. I looked at the psych and math depts. Is this unusual? What should one do in this case? That's why I was thinking the only time I could take it would be in the fall.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Here's the thing, though:

I looked at all the universities/colleges in my area, and could not find any that offered stats in the summer. I looked at the psych and math depts. Is this unusual? What should one do in this case? That's why I was thinking the only time I could take it would be in the fall.

It's not unusual, my school doesn't offer stats in the summer either. If you HAVE to take it in the fall, then that's what you have to do. You can still apply but it'll likely hurt your application depending on the emphasis admissions panels place on stats.

 

[paramour]

So if I take my pre-reqs for PhD programs, such as abnormal, personality, etc. do I need to take stats first? Is stats a part of these classes? The only psych class I ever took was intro to psych, way back in undergrad, which did not involve stats.

So if I take two classes this summer, could I take abnormal and personality without taking stats until the fall? Or would this be a bad idea?

Thanks.

Deja vu. You have this on another thread . . . here. Check out page 2 specifically.

 

[NeuroPsyStudent]

I am completing my fourth stats class now. I have to say that three of the four courses have been painfully difficult, though I have pulled an A in all of them. Sometimes I feel like a class in linear algebra and advanced calculus would have made this easier, but too late now.

Prepare for a challenging time, and if you need, find a tutor who really knows his/her stuff.

 

[PizzaButt]

Deja vu. You have this on another thread . . . here. Check out page 2 specifically.

Yes, but I can't find a school that offers stats in the summer in my area. So it doesn't look like I'll be able to take it until the fall, I know that's not ideal, but what can you do.

 

[NeuroPsyStudent]

Pizza,

If you private message me, I can tell you about distance learning option through a major university. I took my first stats class that way. It was hard, but I learned the material.

 

[PhDshallsee]

I loved it, aced it, took more than one level, and plan to do research for a living partly due to the fact I love stats. On the contrary, I hate straight business math and other crap like calculus. But I love stats.

If you go in there with a bad attitude, you probably aren't going to like it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

plan to do research for a living partly due to the fact I love stats. On the contrary, I hate straight business math and other crap like calculus. But I love stats.

You are the ying to my yang brain.



-t

 

[psychwanabe]

Pizza: stats is not that big of a deal. I am NOT a math person by any stretch. I had been away from school for a while so I did what someone else suggested here and took some algebra courses in college prior to my stats. I took math stats for my math requirement and then psych stats as well. I got A's in everything. It's just one of those things you have to practice a lot, but don't freak out, it's not that tough!

Having said that, I would NEVER try to learn it in an online course, through a book. That's just me, though.

 

[emc17]

Stats wasnt too bad - and I'm not a math person at all. My undergrad experience with stats wasn't painful. I didn't need stats to take abnormal or personality, but it was required for pretty much all of the upper levels - and its a prerequisite for pretty much any research class or position (which you need to make yourself look good if you're going for the Ph.D. ). Anyways, best of luck!

 

[danzgymn86]

You do NOT need stats to understand other Psych courses. Research methods is the only other psych class that requires stats. Conducting your own research will also require stats. But you do NOT need stats to understand Abnormal, Personality, Social, etc.

However, you DO pretty much need stats and research methods to have your grad school application even looked at by admissions committees since stats and research methods is so heavily used in grad school.
You said from what you have seen, you need 18 credits of Psych to apply to grad schools. That is 6 classes.

So, do something like this:

Summer: Stats and Abnormal

Fall:
1. Research Methods
2. Social
3. Personality
4. one of the more science-based classes such as Learning/Behavior, Sensation and Perception, or Cognition...etc.

Or maybe 3 in the summer and 3 in the fall...

You also mentioned needing a plain old lab class (ie: Chemistry or Biology or Physics) so you're going to want to take that sometime when you can as well.

 

[danzgymn86]

This should also help you: http://www.psichi.org/pubs/articles/article_151.asp