How Badly Do you Want Medical School: Non-Trad and Older

[534455]

So you want to go to Medical School. You are older, are officially a non-traditional student, and you are scared as to whether you can do it: get in and pull it off to graduate with an MD in your back pocket

I have been asked by a ton of people live, face to face, via email and now on SDN since I joined it last week, what it takes to get into medical school. My answer is always the same and it's only one thing.

Desire

How badly do you want it?

Then go for it. Don't tell us. Show us. Better yet, show yourself.

Here's how:

If it means applying to 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 medical schools (there's over 100 I believe in the USA), then you will do it. If you do not get into any of the USA schools, then try again the second year. If you applied to 50 MD schools, then apply to 75. Still can't get in? No problem! Look South: Caribbean or Mexico. I have met and worked with quite a few competent, well regarded physicians who graduated as foreign MD grads, and no one sneezes at them. So their diplomas hang in frames written in strange languages or funny printing on their wall in their office. Who cares! Being a doctor has less to do with what school you attended, then OTJ: On The Job Training....Residency. Please keep that in mind. Medical School is a rite of passage. You have to pay your dues. Getting into medical school is your ticket to your OTJ. No MD? No Residency.

What's that? You say you have a poor GPA?
Define poor.
If you have a 1.5 or 2.0, then you want to start all over and take Gen Biology I and II with labs all over again, then General Chemistry I and II with Labs, then Physics I and II with labs, then Organic Chemistry I & II with labs. Yes, you must take these again if they are weighing you down. You will not get into medical school with a 2.0 GP. Sorry, but those are the rules. 2.5? Probably not. Maybe you can. It depends on your MCAT scores.

What? You are moaning? Post-bacc classes all over again?

Well, you obviously don't want it that badly. Go away. You are wasting my time. We need good doctors and you obviously don't have what it takes if you are groaning about taking Physics II.

Let me be really clear: the hardest course in the Pre-Med Requirements List, be it Physics II or Organic II, absolutely pale compared to First year of Medical School. Nothing compared to medical school at the undergraduate level

You did poorly in Organic Chemistry? Relax! Just take it again, man. Focus. Do the work. You'll get it right! There's nothing mysterious or gifted about doing well in Physics II. I mean, who in the world walks around thinking about EMF, Currents, Magnetism and Tesla? C'mon! Just do it already!

What's that you say, you scored a 10 or 15 on the MCAT? (overall)
No sweat. Take it the following year. Buy the necessary books and lock yourself up in a room for 3-6 months and do it.

Huh? You can't see yourself taking the MCAT for a third time? ExamKrackers books are too limp and dull...like you?

How badly do you want it?

You say you are older, have a wife/husband and kids, and you hate to apply to medical schools away from them.

Well, you obviously don't want to be a doctor!

Your family will support you. They will understand you having to move across the State or across the USA (or to the Caribbean) b/c they love you . They want to see you happy. They also know medical school is a lousy two year program! That's right: two lousy years of academics. You can do your third year of Rotations at another facility close to your family with permission from your school. Set it up with the other institution, tell your admins at your school that you found a teaching hospital that is just begging to have you, you have already set it up all, the Residency Program at that teaching hospital where you want to do your 3rd and 4th year Rotations have their eyes on you, and, hey, I just happen to have the papers right here in front of me, please sign these so I can do my 3rd and 4th year Rotations over there where they want me really, really badly!!! Oh, did I tell you that the Residency Director is from the Neurosurgery Program? Yeah, that would make the school look good, wouldn't it if I got into a Neurosurgery Program. Yes, I did bring a pen with me: sign right here.

You will be away from your family for just two years, maybe three. The fourth year is your Elective Rotations and that you can do anywhere in the USA. Besides, maybe they will really miss you and follow you to medical school.

Ya see how easy that was?

If you are older and/or a non-trad, you already moved away from your family, lived alone, cooked for yourself, held a job, paid your own bils, washed your clothes, got drunk, got pulled over for DUI, talked your way out of it, smoozed the Judge, you were lucky to not get a criminal record, so you know darn well what it entails to go at it without anyone helping you. In other words, you did it yourself.

Chin up, shoulders back, chest out: you will make it. You will do just fine.
Why? Because you want it. You can taste it. You feel it in your veins (pun intended). You can see yourself doing nothing else except for practicing medicine - and I don't mean that old tired "suggestion" of being a Physician Assistant or Nurse Practitioner. That is just noise....deafening noise! tell them to go away. Only PhD "doctors" recommend that route, or worse, burnt out physicians. They should retire to make room for new blood like you.

You want to be a doctor?
Your credit is atrocious and don't have any financing?

How badly do you want it?
Oh please! How many times do I have to ask you that question! Look, here's the scoop on financing medical school that the AMCAS people don't tell you in one easy page on their website.

Do you know that the US Department of Education provides financing for Medical students (USA Accredited MD Schools only - sorry Caribbean schools), under the Stafford Loan, up to $25K? Here's the best part: your miserably low beacon score won't do a darned thing to hurt you for the Stafford Loan. Isn't that terrific! now go pack your bags!

Huh? You need more money than $25K to attend medical school? Well, say "hello" to the US Department of Education "Direct Plus Loan", based on need and credit score. If your credit score is really lousy, well no problem. Get a co-signer. Uncle Sam wants to give you the money (loan, that is), provided you have a co-signer. You're going to be a doctor, for Pete's Sake! Who cares that you rack up a few thousands in debt! You will pay it off eventually. Remember that nice house you bought with that great job you had, that mortgage you owned, and the family you supported to house them? Those cost a few thousands, right? So now you're flat broke, facing creditors on your back, possibly lost your house, living in a squalid apartment thanks to the greedy banks, and now you are fretting about medical school financing. You are not alone. There is NO shame....NONE in your situation. The economy bites. And Congress and the President are to blame (both Republicans and Democrats) for forgetting about the "little people"....which is most of us.
Ya see! NO PROBLEM!

Stafford Loan and Direct Plus Loan will cover medical school matriculation and associated living expenses for accredited USA MD/DO Schools. If you plan on attending Yale, Harvard or John Hopkins, then you might have to sell the wife and kids into slavery. Kidding!

Low GPA? no problem. do it over. And again, and again, until you get it right! Stop your excuses!!!

How badly do you want to be a doctor?

Oh, what's that? you don't want to take Organic Chemistry for the third time, really feel humiliated about repeating Physics II because you earned a C twice, and just hate the idea of being in post-bacc studies yet another year for General Chemistry II and that lab where you started a fire?

You obviously don't want to be a doctor. I hear it's pretty easy to get into Nursing School. go pick up your white hat over there.

Over here, right here, on this page, right in front of you, you are looking at future doctors! And I don't mean VooDoo Doctors, but real life Medical Doctors.

Why?

Because we want it! We taste it! We feel it. Because we know, that nothing, absolutely nothing will be more rewarding, more satisfying, more exhilarating than going to the homeless shelter and caring for homeless people hooked on heroin where they feed their drug addiction into their open leg sores. You couldn't care less how smelly they are b/c you are focusing on the care and comfort you are providing them as a physician . You are not there to judge but to heal. And you love that caree calling. Why? Because your heart skips a beat when you see the viral picture on the internet of Pope Francis kissing the feet of children with HIV in Argentina. Because your heart starts to swoon when you think of Mother Teresa of Calcutta putting her white sari into the wounds of dying Indians who wanted to be held before they died, and you wished, darn it you wished, you had taken Organic Chemistry II to get a higher grade so that you could get into just one....only one MD school in the USA out of the 50 to which you applied. It just takes ONE school to get accepted!!!

What? You don't have the money to pay AMCAS the money to apply to 50 medical schools.

well, sweetie, you obviously don't want to be a doctor. Go play on Facebook and be someone great in your own little lonely world on the internet.

Step aside. The minority student standing behind you, who was raised by a single mother, who had no education, who's father was a drug dealer, who was raised in the inner city slum, who had emotional problems in school and failed his classes....yes, that guy, that guy right there behind you, HE wants to be a doctor. And you know why? Because little Ben came from abject poverty, was raised in Detroit by a single mother with no education, who worked as a maid cleaning the homes of rich white people, who's father was a dead beat dad who sold drugs and failed as a father, yes, Ben, little Ben, who got picked on at school for being black, had an anger problem, and lo and behold, he reached out to God and for adults to help him.

Today? Don't you know who Ben is? Stop playing so much on Facebook and Twitter. You are tweating your brain away!

Ben is retiring from John Hopkins Hospital as one of the most respected world wide Neurosurgeons in the World after decades work at John Hopkins.

Dr. Ben Carson, MD, wanted to be a doctor so badly that he did whatever it took to be a doctor. He almost failed his first semester in medical school and guess what he did? He got his act together, lived in the library at the University of Wisconsin Medical School, got into the Residency Program at John Hopkins and became the renowned, respected, beloved surgeon that got invited by President Barack Obama recently to the 2013 National Prayer Breakfast Conference. President George W. Bush awarded him a Presidential Medal of Freedom

Ben became a doctor because he wanted it badly enough.

So tell me, what are you going to do, now that you've read this ubber motivating post, that has called you out on your excuses, and laid it out for all to read.....

do you want to be a doctor or don't you?

how badly do you want it?

Keep us posted.

Hugs

- posted by an older, non-traditional first year medical school who writes from experience
pss: excuse the typos or errors. This isn't for AMCAS Medical School Essay. I'm done with that already!

http://roadlesstraveledmd.wordpress.com/

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[NuttyEngDude]

I love it! Very motivating!

 

[Goro]

Nice story, but sometimes, one has to be practical and realize that not everyone is cut out for medical school.

 

[534455]

Nice story, but sometimes, one has to be practical and realize that not everyone is cut out for medical school.

Well it didn't take long for someone to throw a cold bucket of water on that motivating sentiment.

 

[Goro]

In this world, not everyone is above average.

Well it didn't take long for someone to throw a cold bucket of water on that motivating sentiment.

 

[Shjanzey]

.

 

[Balantidiumcoli]

In this world, not everyone is above average.

And in this world, not *all* physicians are above average, nor all successful med school applicants for that matter.

 

[rguil15]

And in this world, not *all* physicians are above average, nor all successful med school applicants for that matter.

I like to watch a good debate as much as anyone, but you must define some terms. Average in relation to what?

 

[Balantidiumcoli]

I like to watch a good debate as much as anyone, but you must define some terms. Average in relation to what?

That's somewhat peripheral to my point.

If we are judging people solely on their med school app stats (EC's, GPA, MCAT) and an ADCOMs acquiescence that isn't simply a measure of med school success. Instead it's a measure of how well they did in school, what they did in their spare time, a standardized test score and a med school giving them the thumbs up.

I'm not saying that they give no or even a bad indication of how successful someone would be in med school, that would be idiotic, but I am saying that it is dismissive to assume that someone can't overcome past performance issues if they really want to put the work in. I was thinking along the lines of the fallacy of saying that because most people who get into med school smart, caring and competent means *no one* who lacks all of the aforementioned doesn't. Likewise, it's a fallacy that because most people with a history of low GPAs, have a history of a lack of discipline and who never got their act together until later don't have the commitment nor aptitude means that all person's who who fit in this category do. They may be the exception but they do exist.

 

[rguil15]

That's somewhat peripheral to my point.



I'm not saying that they give no or even a bad indication of how successful someone would be in med school, that would be idiotic, but I am saying that it is dismissive to assume that someone can't overcome past performance issues if they really want to put the work in.

So average in relation to how someone will do in medical school is what you're saying even if it's "peripheral to your point"? I'm not good with verboseness.

Context and definitions would really clarify some things here.

Do you disagree with "not everyone is cut out for medical school" and "in this world not everyone is average"? If so, how?

 

[MurumErumpendum]

In this world, not everyone is above average.

If your statement was false, "average" by definition would be incorrect. So it's axiomatic. A more important point is whether above average doctors are in fact being produced by selecting students deemed to be above average. In my experience, and the experience of almost everyone I know (including residents, doctors, patients), the majority of practicing doctors is below the expected average, often dangerously so. Ergo, any insinuations that the average quality of students is established by pure statistics is a fallacy. People like the OP who pursue medicine very passionately, overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles, will often become one of the best doctors in their fields, despite having the label of a below "average" applicant or person; two separate, often unrelated designations.

 

[rguil15]

If your statement was false, "average" by definition would be incorrect. So it's axiomatic. A more important point is whether above average doctors are in fact being produced by selecting students deemed to be above average.

I smell a similar logic problem to the one that you pointed out.

If only above average students get into medical school, how can they then all become above average doctors?

Doesn't the original above average group now have to become the new below, average, and above average, by definition?

Not to mention the insurmountable problem with quantifying the "average" for a doctor.

 

[rguil15]

In my experience, and the experience of almost everyone I know (including residents, doctors, patients), the majority of practicing doctors is below the expected average, often dangerously so.

What does this even mean?

 

[Balantidiumcoli]

So average in relation to how someone will do in medical school is what you're saying even if it's "peripheral to your point"? I'm not good with verboseness.

Context and definitions would really clarify some things here.

Do you disagree with "not everyone is cut out for medical school" and "in this world not everyone is average"? If so, how?

I was afraid this conversation was going to be boring.

If by your statement 'not everyone is cut out for medical school' obviously some people with physical or mental disabilities are never going to be physically capable of doing it. So in that view, obviously, yes. But if you're asking me because someone presently lacks the ability, drive or needed stats to get into medical school and don't suffer from a physical/mental defect means that it is impossible for them to develop the drive and ability then my answer is a definitive no.

My main objection was to the tone of Goro's post which seemed to imply that because most people don't have the drive and aptitude necessary it is a waste of time for those few who didn't before to work hard to gain it.

Still too verbose?

 

[rguil15]

I was afraid this conversation was going to be boring.

Something we can agree on. Dead end.

 

[MurumErumpendum]

I smell a similar logic problem to the one that you pointed out.

If only above average students get into medical school, how can they then all become above average doctors?

Doesn't the original above average group now have to become the new below, average, and above average, by definition?

Not to mention the insurmountable problem with quantifying the "average" for a doctor.

The logic is dissimilar since I made a distinction between average student and the expected average performance of a doctor. Your point is still valid because one might ask what is "expected performance." I didn't want to be blunt and was responding to the post in similar spirit, but the proper term really should be "incompetence." It's certainly possible to have the majority of doctors at the level of competence by accepting truly average or above students (or rather, competent students). In either case, my main point was that academic statistics is not congruent to competence.

One might still ask as to what is incompetence. We can go with the simplest definition of "do no harm," which can be easily defined. Just a few examples of incompetence: When a doctor lacks knowledge and/or interest resulting in the wrong diagnosis, wrong treatment, sometimes with severe physical (death) or psychological (false positive incurable disease) consequences; when a doctor refuses to believe in or perform any treatment due to any reason other than scientifically proven methods; when a doctor is ignorant of most recent developments in research that directly affects his patients; when a doctor ignores a scientific paper brought up by a resident which results in death of a pregnant woman and the fetus; when an attending treats patients by email and teaches future doctors by the same method...

This list can be very long, but the bottom line is that majority of doctors are not practicing evidence-based medicine, are very far from scientific, and should not be anywhere near patients. I used to loathe malpractice cases, but after coming across so many cases of incompetence, I realized that in most cases doctors aren't sued when they really deserve to be and thrown out of practicing medicine. You never hear about these cases because patients themselves are unaware. My list above even includes a program ranked in the top 5 in the nation.

I would like not to derail OP's thread as this is a separate discussion, but when I hear anyone talking about student aptitude and implying that medschool requirements are a good judge of someone's ability, I wonder if these people truly know the world of medicine. There is a reason why many surgeons are horrified to allow someone else operate on them.

 

[Chuchunezumis]

I actually think this is pretty bad advice. As Goro said not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, and encouraging people to take on more debt and spend more time pursuing medicine (especially if they've failed o-chem or physics twice etc) I think is a pretty bad idea. Of course it depends on the person, but generic advice like this will often do more harm than good.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Thank you for this thread. It is definitely inspiring to me as I wrap up year 2 of my post-baccaulareate education with all As except for that pesky Organic Chemistry, which marred my 4.0 with Bs. I could have aced it though if I hadn't been working 2 jobs that semester. That was another learning experience to add to the long list I've racked up.

Shadowing a psychiatrist at a public mental health clinic has shown me that I can't imagine doing anything else as a profession, which is the most motivational realization of all. Knowing what you want to do with certainty changes everything.

Dr. Ben Carson's story is one I have been meaning to read. Thanks for the reminder! For the past few weeks, I've been drawing inspiration from Dr. Q's story. He faced a lot more hardships in his pre-medical journey than I have, so encouraging and eye-opening to read about how he "made it."

 

[ImhotepIII]

Great motivational thread. I'll do myself a favor and not take this completely out of literal context and appreciate the over arching theme. I definitely feel this way about my pre-med courses now as a undergrad, especially sense I'm taking physicsII & Ochem, studying every night. It helps that I have friends who are academic beasts and are always down to study. I think that's the key part to getting into med school is finding those few people you can trust that will cover for you if you need them to....And Networking of course!

 

[drbull]

Congratulations, this is the best post I've read in my several years as a member on SDN, especially as a newish non-trad who just graduated from college but re-studying for the MCAT for this upcoming cycle.

Thank-you.

 

[534455]

Great motivational thread. I'll do myself a favor and not take this completely out of literal context and appreciate the over arching theme. I definitely feel this way about my pre-med courses now as a undergrad, especially sense I'm taking physicsII & Ochem, studying every night. It helps that I have friends who are academic beasts and are always down to study. I think that's the key part to getting into med school is finding those few people you can trust that will cover for you if you need them to....And Networking of course!

I am waking at 3 AM, sometimes 4 AM, daily for some strange reason, and this is the first time I have jumped on SDN in about a week. I just dont have the time to play on the net, as much as I enjoy writing with much passion, and also, playing on the net! There is a naughty, joyous thrill on surfing the www sometimes. But it amounts to nothing in the long run. Don't be one of those.

However, I remember all too well the frustrating phases in my post-bacc days of taking courses that I felt were incredibly irrelevant towards medicine. So I feel your pain.

Keep going.
If you really want it, go for it..
Don't believe the nay-sayers - and there are too many of them, none of which deserve your time.
It gets better.
The real goal is getting into medical school, not fighting on SDN. Writing a scathing post or self-righteous email gets you feeling good about yourself for about 15 seconds, (or 15 days if you have mental problems). Be more productive with your time and knock out your responsibilities of the day.

Physics II is more of a testament to your perseverance than anything else. I do not remember a whole lot from Physics II (nor Physics I). I don't remember the Organic Chemistry laws/rules of naming compounds, how reactions go or do not go to completion and what reagent is required to allow them to proceed. I'm not interested these days on whether my reaction will produce a cis, trans or chair shape product. Thankfully.

There are tons of facts in medical school that await you that you may never see in the hospital or clinical setting, but you still have to know it for your school exams and Boards. This is a topic often discussed in medical school circles.

As a post-bacc or pre-med, you are in a space where Physics II should matter to you....a great deal. I earned an "A" in Physics II. And I had a household to run, a mortgage to pay, a family to keep happy , a hungry, large watchdog, and the government to get off my back. There were many times I stared at electrical charges, magnetic fields and electrical wave forms and thought, "is this really necessary?"

It has been 2-3 years since I took Physics II and the answer I write today to the above question is: "yes".

You have to do it. Stop fighting it. You have to jump through hoops. As my mentor/ medical school MD advisor told me last week, something I already knew about life in general, "you have to pay your dues"

So get out whatever resources you need, buckle down and get it over with. Do well. Really well. Do it like it matters because it does. Because if you do not take your studies seriously, regardless of whether you think the courses are important, the medical school application committees will see you as not taking it seriously. They are not interested on your opinions as to whether Coloumbs Law or Farraday's Laws are relevant. They want to know whether you can handle the work load of medical school.

Nothing in college and nothing at the Post-Bacc levels can prepare you for medical school. But juggling Organic Chemistry + Labs, Physics + Labs, and the mundane things of memorizing laws/rules that you will probably forget, do say something.

Perseverance.

do you have what it takes to be a physician? Your performance in Physics and Organic Chemistry courses are not about whether you are "average" (such a silly concept). No one is average. Everyone has a great value in their own right. I think the concept of whether you are average vs "above average" is myopic. I know waiters who can bury me in Perseverance in how they handle the stress of waiting on multiple high end restaurant tables, or pain in the neck customers at a dive diner, earn a great evening of tips, and have fun that night with friends and family at bars, outings, etc. There is a great deal of beauty in every individual and the word "average" just is not one of them.

keep at it.
suck it up.
There will be loads more of the interminable stuff to endure in medical school....and Residency.

how badly do you want it?

I'm off to do laundry....a week's worth. What Cranial Nerves, areas of the CNS and neurotransmitters are involved?

Ha!

 

[534455]

Congratulations, this is the best post I've read in my several years as a member on SDN, especially as a newish non-trad who just graduated from college but re-studying for the MCAT for this upcoming cycle.

Thank-you.

do well on the MCAT. Shoot for mid-30s. That was my strategy. But also work on your AMCAS application diligently! Make sure you have stellar Letter Writers. Get on their backs. Swing by their offices regularly to make sure they have sent your letters to AMCAS. Make sure you have the requisite number of letters for the medical schools. Some allow only 3 maximum. Others far more. Follow their rules. Make sure your letter writers have MD initials behind their names, and it wouldn't hurt if they were physicians in specialized fields helping trending medical issues - HIV/AIDS, Cancer, Public Health, Veterans Affairs, etc. Make sure you put together a total package in your application that stands out.

Stand out in a good way. Make them think there is something different about you that deserves further reflection.

GPAs are important as are MCAT scores. They will determine whether the medical school you are pursuing even grant you a secondary application. Don't assume that they SHOULD look at you because of your extracurricular activities, your neat essay or community involvement. If you do not have the GPA and / or MCAT they are seeking, they won't even give you 15 seconds of their time. So bang out the courses and do well. It's not about intelligence. I know far too many physicians from my career days in medicine who i wondered how they got into the system. "How did he get accepted?" my colleagues and I often discussed about marginal doctors. There are tons of them.

For now.......inhale MCAT material. For 3 months make it more important than sex, food, movies, Facebook (a travesty in my opinion), your relationships. Your friends will love you after you take the MCAT and forgive you if you blew them off for 3 months. Facebook will continue to be Facebook without you. MCAT is much more important and will follow you and determine your future. Posts on SDN and FB will not do anything for your future - these media are about self-expression, creativity if you enjoy writing, and having fun for 30-60 minutes.

Take it from a first year medical student who is facing Step 1 Boards in one year, a score that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

"If you do not take your MCAT seriously, then you blew it, and that's your own doing".

Doing well on the MCAT has more to do with putting in the time of studies, than smarts, intelligence, or being "above average"

yes, you need to know how to do math in your head. Not many cashiers today at stores can give change to customers without looking at the computer cash register. A real shame. yes, you have to be a quick thinker, process material rapidly and come up with a workable solution that makes sense. Ever have sick kids? Ever have to run to the hospital with a family member when you had a full day already? Ever have the utilities about to be turned off your house for lack of payment, and don't have the funds? In-laws calling with real issues that you must resolve because they are your family as well? These require quick responses as well, and you make it happen.

Make the MCAT work for you. It's in your hands.

Unplug from the net, from TV, from Facebook, Twitter, blogs, you get the picture.

Because you are fooling yourself if you think you can play on the Net, write 300 posts in 1 month on SDN, watch hours of reality TV, and convince the medical school admissions committee that you have what it takes to succeed in medical school.

If you couldn't succeed at the MCAT, why should they believe you have what it takes?
For now, for you, MCAT and GPA in pre-med requisite courses are your chance to show them you have what it takes.

Studying for the MCAT doesn't come close to the First Year of medical school. And medical school admissions committees know that. So should you.

Do it right.
Do it well.
You will get into medical school if you did your work
Everyone has an opinion, especially frustrated pre-med students.

The opinion that matters to you the most right now is the opinion of the medical school admissions committee. Give them what they want.

read my blog: The Road Less Traveled to MD to learn what medical school as a first year student is like unvarnished.

Best to you, future Doctor!

 

[jl lin]

Unplug from the net, from TV, from Facebook, Twitter, blogs, you get the picture.

Because you are fooling yourself if you think you can play on the Net, write 300 posts in 1 month on SDN, watch hours of reality TV, and convince the medical school admissions committee that you have what it takes to succeed in medical school.

^ Some of the truest words. Maybe there are a few that can; but most can't.

On that note. . .back to the grind.

 

[CDI]

I feel like somewhere in that should've been...

"You don't want it bad...you're not LASER-FOCUS!"

(Only few will understand that...)

 

[Goro]

While I admire the motivational spirit of the OP, people also win the lottery, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and start buying tickets.

What I just want to temper is the attitude that somehow, sheer determination is a subsitute for intellectual competance. The advice to [sic] "apply to every medical school in the world" is simply not realistic. The attitude of "I'm going to keep on applying until I get in" is to me, not one of determination, but immaturity.

The sad truth is, not everyone can be a doctor, just like not everyone is from Lake Wobegon.

That's somewhat peripheral to my point.

If we are judging people solely on their med school app stats (EC's, GPA, MCAT) and an ADCOMs acquiescence that isn't simply a measure of med school success. Instead it's a measure of how well they did in school, what they did in their spare time, a standardized test score and a med school giving them the thumbs up.

I'm not saying that they give no or even a bad indication of how successful someone would be in med school, that would be idiotic, but I am saying that it is dismissive to assume that someone can't overcome past performance issues if they really want to put the work in. I was thinking along the lines of the fallacy of saying that because most people who get into med school smart, caring and competent means *no one* who lacks all of the aforementioned doesn't. Likewise, it's a fallacy that because most people with a history of low GPAs, have a history of a lack of discipline and who never got their act together until later don't have the commitment nor aptitude means that all person's who who fit in this category do. They may be the exception but they do exist.

 

[mauberley]

^ Some of the truest words. Maybe there are a few that can; but most can't.

For the great bulk of the application cycle, post-application submission, there's very little to do but make 300 posts in a month on SDN...

 

[Balantidiumcoli]

While I admire the motivational spirit of the OP, people also win the lottery, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and start buying tickets.

What I just want to temper is the attitude that somehow, sheer determination is a subsitute for intellectual competance. The advice to [sic] "apply to every medical school in the world" is simply not realistic. The attitude of "I'm going to keep on applying until I get in" is to me, not one of determination, but immaturity.

The sad truth is, not everyone can be a doctor, just like not everyone is from Lake Wobegon.

I agree with most of that. But I find it hard to think of someone as being immature for working to better themselves in a significant way and demonstrate they have the necessary aptitude for med school in spite of rejection.

Perhaps this can be boiled down to person A does not seem to have the necessary characteristics to get into medical school is it possible that he can develop them? I'm confident we agree that no one should venture into a medical education without the proper levels of dedication and academic competence. All of the people who go to island schools only to learn that they couldn't hack it demonstrate why that is quite nicely (I'd bank that is probably the majority of people who take such a path which is unfortunate). But I can't agree with the idea that a person's academic competence is necessarily static and can't be improved with dedication and time. Even here on SDN I remember reading of one poster who had an uGPA of ~2.45 but he did a masters and ultimately got into PCOM (and there's obviously DrMidlife and a few others).

I also agree with you that a 'go get em' attitude is no where enough to make it. But if you can learn the study skills, devote the time and make the right moves people can, and have, overcome past performance issues and the only thing that kept them going at times was desire and determination. But people in this position should be real with themselves and understand the steps that you are going to have to take to overcome them are brutal with absolutely no guarantee of success so just think about that before you do anything rash.

*Edited because I didn't have time to proof-read original post. Too clunky and awkward.*

I was also going to cut this out but for lurkers who may be reading these threads I thought it may be of some interest.

When I first decided to try and go to medical school I definitely drank the 'Ra-Ra if you simply believe in yourself you can do anything!' kool-aid much to my own detriment. I over committed. I tried to squeeze in as many academic and extracurricular activities in as little time as possible which ultimately resulted in an unexpected and unfortunately damning display of mediocrity. I thought I wasn't cut out for it either but if this year is any indication I am definitely proving myself wrong. I'm not saying I'll make it, I think my post history shows enough history of me admitting to such. Ultimately, I don't do what I do because I can't live without a title or for the prestige or whatever other bull**** gets peddled out. It's just who I am.

 

[jl lin]

For the great bulk of the application cycle, post-application submission, there's very little to do but make 300 posts in a month on SDN...

lol

 

[QofQuimica]

For the great bulk of the application cycle, post-application submission, there's very little to do but make 300 posts in a month on SDN...

Concur. I sure as heck didn't make the bulk of my 16,000+ SDN posts as a med student, let alone as a resident.

On a more serious note, I'd argue that the OP is being too pollyannaish, while Goro is a bit overly harsh. The key to doing well as a premed, med student, and resident, is to work hard. You also have to focus your efforts appropriately, because just trying harder and harder doesn't help anything if you don't analyze where you went wrong the last time so that you can make a better effort the next time. All that being said, you don't have to be a genius to be a doctor. You don't even have to be above average. Any person with an average IQ can be a doctor if they're willing to put in the work. Not that it isn't helpful to be a genius if you happen to be one, but most concepts in medicine aren't particularly complex.

Coming around full circle, reading and posting on SDN is *not* a waste of time if you step outside the social threads once in a while. I'm coming up on a decade since I started my premed journey on SDN, and I've found it a helpful resource all along the way. Now that I'm a senior resident, I tend to give more advice than I get. But even so, there are still some attendings I've gotten to "know" through SDN and have been able to ask for advice here and there. There's also a cohort of us who have "grown up" together on SDN, from our premed days to becoming fellows and attendings. That's pretty cool too.

 

[TheMagicCookie]

I want to interject my opinion here. Going back to 2008, I was well on my way to med school, I had over 100+ hours of shadowing, volunteering weekly at an organization that provided free surgeries to the needy, worked in a hospital full time as an Anesthesia Tech, had gone on medical mission trips to Guatemala, and had multiple physicians and professors lined up to write my letters of Rec. I was a full time student at a University and rode/showed horses on the side as my extracurricular activity (have done so since I was 11). Jump forward a few months and my whole plan came plummeting back down to Earth and things stopped dead in their tracks. While going to see my horse who was about to have a foal, I ended up witnessing/being indirectly involved in a car accident where a young man my age died in my arms. Having a fair amount of medical experience and dealing with death in the OR for 3 years prior to this, I never would have guessed how much I would be affected by having a person die in my arms without being able to do anything about it. I had a lot of guilt surrounding the accident (whether it was possibly my fault, etc) and I soon found that I wasn't able to treat his death as if it didn't affect me. I lost about 20 lbs because I had no appetite, couldn't sleep, my work started to suffer, I withdrew from classes, and headed for a breakdown due to PTSD that would later be diagnosed.

To make this long story short, 2013 was my goal date to begin Med school. I am not in Med school currently. I am actually in nursing school which is something I never guessed would happen, but I am once again back on the track to working towards Med school. Once I complete my BSN I will be applying to Med schools (around 2015). It will be a minimum of 11 years before I will be finished with Residency and can practice on my own, but I sat down the other day and thought long and hard about what was more important to me...furthering my nursing career and always knowing in the back of my mind that I had settled for something just below my dream/goals, or commit the next 11 years to achieving my life long dream of becoming a Physician...I choose the latter.

Basically, life happens and its how you choose to deal with the obstacles that will determine where you end up and prove how much you truly want something.

 

[Goro]

Ahhh, there's the key! People who reinvent themselves are ones we like, and we accept them all the time. Alas, there's too many people out there who are totally clueless, who seem to think that somehow, this will be the year that their 2.8 GPA/21 MCAT will get them into Stanford.

I agree with most of that. But I find it hard to think of someone as being immature for working to better themselves in a significant way and demonstrate they have the necessary aptitude for med school in spite of rejection.

 

[mulberry]

I am sorry, but I disagree with Caribbean and foreign medical schools. With the number of residency applications rising every year, yet no new residency positions opening up (e.g. -- fixed number of residencies) this means more and more competition for those spots.

You would effectively be a foreign graduate, which means you will be considered last for residency spots. At this point in time it is an incredibly stupid thing to do, especially when you have to compete against some very intelligent, and very capable foreign graduates whose resumes will probably blow yours away.

There was about a 2,400 increase in residency positions in 2013 vs. 2012.

 

[galaxyx]

There was about a 2,400 increase in residency positions in 2013 vs. 2012.

Apparently that increase was because some programs used to do some slots prematch to FMGs and some spots in the match. Now if they want to be in the match at all all of their spots had to go in the match, so there was an artificial inflation of both residency spots and FMGs matching.

 

[Jewels86]

What a beautiful and inspiring posting!! I'm so thankful I found it!! I'm bookmarking it just to read and reread it often!!

 

[BurberryDoc]

I never saw this post before. I am with @Goro on this one.
Personally, as a non-URM non-trad applicant with a dysmal GPA and a marginally acceptable MCAT score, and further, as someone who has beaten the odds and gotten accepted to a US MD school, the original post left a VERY bad taste in my mouth.

 

[DocWinter]

You can do your third year of Rotations at another facility close to your family with permission from your school. Set it up with the other institution, tell your admins at your school that you found a teaching hospital that is just begging to have you, you have already set it up all, the Residency Program at that teaching hospital where you want to do your 3rd and 4th year Rotations have their eyes on you, and, hey, I just happen to have the papers right here in front of me, please sign these so I can do my 3rd and 4th year Rotations over there where they want me really, really badly!!! Oh, did I tell you that the Residency Director is from the Neurosurgery Program? Yeah, that would make the school look good, wouldn't it if I got into a Neurosurgery Program. Yes, I did bring a pen with me: sign right here.

Is this common? Would love to know more about it from anyone who has done it

 

[Captain Sisko]

I recall seeing this but not reading it- i believe my mcat was on 3/23/13, lol

I'll concur with goro, for once. Some people have the dream but not the smarts to back it up.

I had an aerodynamics professor once, who told me that not every student is cut out to be an aero engineer. The math is hard, the science is hard, and we don't want people to design bad airplanes. The same holds true here- it's not for everyone.

 

[DreamingDoc]

I never saw this post before. I am with @Goro on this one.
Personally, as a non-URM non-trad applicant with a dysmal GPA and a marginally acceptable MCAT score, and further, as someone who has beaten the odds and gotten accepted to a US MD school, the original post left a VERY bad taste in my mouth.

Oddly, I felt the same way. How can a person judge how bad someone else wants something? Plus, applying to 75 schools over and over again isn't the answer. Identify your weaknesses and work on improving yourself before re-applying. And lastly, why no mention of osteopathic schools??? There are more options than just going the carribean or Mexico route.

 

[SN12357]

There is a particularly toxic strain of self-help philosophy in American culture that involves denying reality in favor of advocating that if you just want something bad enough, it will happen. That's not how life works. The world is capricious, unpredictable, and often unfair. Sometimes these characteristics can be controlled and some people are born in life circumstances that mean they have a leg up or a major handicap. Attributing failure solely to an individual not wanting is a doubly damaging point of view as it allows both structural determinants and individual characteristics outside a person's control to be dismissed. It requires denial of facts and is a recipe for self-hatred.

Which is my roundabout way of saying the original post left a bad taste in my mouth, too. Particularly the parts that assumes a supportive family and downplay the meaningfulness of getting loans.

 

[MedWonk]

There is a particularly toxic strain of self-help philosophy in American culture that involves denying reality in favor of advocating that if you just want something bad enough, it will happen. That's not how life works. The world is capricious, unpredictable, and often unfair. Sometimes these characteristics can be controlled and some people are born in life circumstances that mean they have a leg up or a major handicap. Attributing failure solely to an individual not wanting is a doubly damaging point of view as it allows both structural determinants and individual characteristics outside a person's control to be dismissed. It requires denial of facts and is a recipe for self-hatred.

Which is my roundabout way of saying the original post left a bad taste in my mouth, too. Particularly the parts that assumes a supportive family and downplay the meaningfulness of getting loans.

Pretty much this. I knew more than a few people in my post-bacc that worked their asses off in those classes but simply couldn't make it work. I know of one person in particular who pretty much failed most of the pre-reqs despite studying more than anyone I know and being one of the hardest workers I know. Fortunately, he didn't force something that wasn't going to happen and went back home to run a business back home that has started to see quite a bit of success recently. Hard work and persistence are great, but not knowing when to stop and simply trudging along until complete failure sets in hoping it'll somehow work itself out can be a recipe for disaster. People should really learn to have a fallback plan.

 

[Apollo1]

I'm of a mind to agree with Goro (and not solely b/c he's an Adcom). There are intangibles in any process of advancement that the benefitter won't be able to control or influence. Sheer willpower, while useful for some endeavors, is not something that has a mystical effect. I assume that many of the premed participants on this site are full-time students with no to little to no real world experience; while a part of this community may never get into medical school (myself included), let us provide grounded & realistic advice so that we can openly say "At least I was honest with you."

 

[TLAD123]

While I admire the motivational spirit of the OP, people also win the lottery, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and start buying tickets.

I see your point but...
1. You just compared getting into med school with the lottery. It is not a lottery. There may be some perceived similarities, but there are actual criteria for med admin.
2. The OP presents many other prereq. instances that need to occur - using the idea of applying to every school shows an implied potential dedication, one that would also need to be displayed in all areas of one's academics in order to be accepted - the original spirit of the post

On another note - I do agree with your logic of not everyone is cut out for it. If one finds that out sooner rather than later, the better for them. I do think that the OP intended to follow a "if at first you don't succeed" mentality, but that doesn't always apply.

 

[Goro]

Again, as others have pointed out in the post, there's a difference between determination and competence. You missed my point about the lottery. Just because people enjoy rare successes does not mean that everyone will be so fortunate, even upon repeated attempts. Yes, there are people who are accepted into Yale with MCAT scores below the 10%ile of the matriculating classes scores, but these are very exceptional (or wealthy) people.

I think applying to a school with a <10% chance of success is a waste of resourses, and merely ends up being a donation tot he school.. It's better to apply strategically, when one has the best possible packet. Unfortunately, the majority of applicants do not do this.

 

[Ranniks]

Thanks OP! Your words are true.

Desire is key.

 

[StBernardsRule]

The problem also is people tend to be very bad at assessing their own abilities and since now undergraduate schooling and post-bacc work cost so much money the consequences for being wrong are pretty huge. I'd be much more in favor of the "follow your dreams, you can do it!" attitude if students weren't taking out $20k+ in loans per year for something that likely won't work out. I still don't understand how potential med students can feel comfortable taking out loans for SMP or formal post-bacs when they may very well NOT get into medical school and end up with a ton of debt.

Many people on this website seem to act like a 25 on the MCAT is a terrible score and getting 35+ ain't nothing but a thang. Truth is half the MCAT taking population won't score higher than a 25 and that includes a lot of people who worked very hard. To tell people to keep going for it when multiple indicators say they should stop is not a good idea. It's one thing to follow your dreams and fail, it's another thing entirely to follow your dreams and fail and end up with a ton of debt.

 

[DocWinter]

Many people on this website seem to act like a 25 on the MCAT is a terrible score and getting 35+ ain't nothing but a thang. Truth is half the MCAT taking population won't score higher than a 25 and that includes a lot of people who worked very hard. To tell people to keep going for it when multiple indicators say they should stop is not a good idea. It's one thing to follow your dreams and fail, it's another thing entirely to follow your dreams and fail and end up with a ton of debt.

Roger that. The median is, against popular opinion, where the vast majority of us will top off. It's just a fact, as evidenced by statistics. There has to be a mix of the "rah rah", courage and determination with the logics and numbers which DO NOT LIE. Fortunately, the numbers also suggest the average person with willpower CAN make it. But it's not a one size fits all - that's the only problem I have the OP. It's not for everyone who wants it, or the 80K in debt pre-med with a 2.7s and 4 MCAT scores topping out at 23 will be the new starving artist serving tables of the decade.

I enter this year as a non trad, and worked so very hard for my very average scores. I expect to garner mostly B's in medical school. I'm cool with that. Sometimes following your dreams doesn't look dreamy.

 

[mcloaf]

Ben Carson didn't go to the University of Wisconsin.

 

[alpinism]

Heh no kidding.

Carson, Gupta, and Kevorkian all bleed blue.

 

[Mad Jack]

So you want to go to Medical School. You are older, are officially a non-traditional student, and you are scared as to whether you can do it: get in and pull it off to graduate with an MD in your back pocket

I have been asked by a ton of people live, face to face, via email and now on SDN since I joined it last week, what it takes to get into medical school. My answer is always the same and it's only one thing.

Desire

How badly do you want it?

Then go for it. Don't tell us. Show us. Better yet, show yourself.

Here's how:

If it means applying to 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 medical schools (there's over 100 I believe in the USA), then you will do it. If you do not get into any of the USA schools, then try again the second year. If you applied to 50 MD schools, then apply to 75. Still can't get in? No problem! Look South: Caribbean or Mexico. I have met and worked with quite a few competent, well regarded physicians who graduated as foreign MD grads, and no one sneezes at them. So their diplomas hang in frames written in strange languages or funny printing on their wall in their office. Who cares! Being a doctor has less to do with what school you attended, then OTJ: On The Job Training....Residency. Please keep that in mind. Medical School is a rite of passage. You have to pay your dues. Getting into medical school is your ticket to your OTJ. No MD? No Residency.

What's that? You say you have a poor GPA?
Define poor.
If you have a 1.5 or 2.0, then you want to start all over and take Gen Biology I and II with labs all over again, then General Chemistry I and II with Labs, then Physics I and II with labs, then Organic Chemistry I & II with labs. Yes, you must take these again if they are weighing you down. You will not get into medical school with a 2.0 GP. Sorry, but those are the rules. 2.5? Probably not. Maybe you can. It depends on your MCAT scores.

What? You are moaning? Post-bacc classes all over again?

Well, you obviously don't want it that badly. Go away. You are wasting my time. We need good doctors and you obviously don't have what it takes if you are groaning about taking Physics II.

Let me be really clear: the hardest course in the Pre-Med Requirements List, be it Physics II or Organic II, absolutely pale compared to First year of Medical School. Nothing compared to medical school at the undergraduate level

You did poorly in Organic Chemistry? Relax! Just take it again, man. Focus. Do the work. You'll get it right! There's nothing mysterious or gifted about doing well in Physics II. I mean, who in the world walks around thinking about EMF, Currents, Magnetism and Tesla? C'mon! Just do it already!

What's that you say, you scored a 10 or 15 on the MCAT? (overall)
No sweat. Take it the following year. Buy the necessary books and lock yourself up in a room for 3-6 months and do it.

Huh? You can't see yourself taking the MCAT for a third time? ExamKrackers books are too limp and dull...like you?

How badly do you want it?

You say you are older, have a wife/husband and kids, and you hate to apply to medical schools away from them.

Well, you obviously don't want to be a doctor!

Your family will support you. They will understand you having to move across the State or across the USA (or to the Caribbean) b/c they love you . They want to see you happy. They also know medical school is a lousy two year program! That's right: two lousy years of academics. You can do your third year of Rotations at another facility close to your family with permission from your school. Set it up with the other institution, tell your admins at your school that you found a teaching hospital that is just begging to have you, you have already set it up all, the Residency Program at that teaching hospital where you want to do your 3rd and 4th year Rotations have their eyes on you, and, hey, I just happen to have the papers right here in front of me, please sign these so I can do my 3rd and 4th year Rotations over there where they want me really, really badly!!! Oh, did I tell you that the Residency Director is from the Neurosurgery Program? Yeah, that would make the school look good, wouldn't it if I got into a Neurosurgery Program. Yes, I did bring a pen with me: sign right here.

You will be away from your family for just two years, maybe three. The fourth year is your Elective Rotations and that you can do anywhere in the USA. Besides, maybe they will really miss you and follow you to medical school.

Ya see how easy that was?

If you are older and/or a non-trad, you already moved away from your family, lived alone, cooked for yourself, held a job, paid your own bils, washed your clothes, got drunk, got pulled over for DUI, talked your way out of it, smoozed the Judge, you were lucky to not get a criminal record, so you know darn well what it entails to go at it without anyone helping you. In other words, you did it yourself.

Chin up, shoulders back, chest out: you will make it. You will do just fine.
Why? Because you want it. You can taste it. You feel it in your veins (pun intended). You can see yourself doing nothing else except for practicing medicine - and I don't mean that old tired "suggestion" of being a Physician Assistant or Nurse Practitioner. That is just noise....deafening noise! tell them to go away. Only PhD "doctors" recommend that route, or worse, burnt out physicians. They should retire to make room for new blood like you.

You want to be a doctor?
Your credit is atrocious and don't have any financing?

How badly do you want it?
Oh please! How many times do I have to ask you that question! Look, here's the scoop on financing medical school that the AMCAS people don't tell you in one easy page on their website.

Do you know that the US Department of Education provides financing for Medical students (USA Accredited MD Schools only - sorry Caribbean schools), under the Stafford Loan, up to $25K? Here's the best part: your miserably low beacon score won't do a darned thing to hurt you for the Stafford Loan. Isn't that terrific! now go pack your bags!

Huh? You need more money than $25K to attend medical school? Well, say "hello" to the US Department of Education "Direct Plus Loan", based on need and credit score. If your credit score is really lousy, well no problem. Get a co-signer. Uncle Sam wants to give you the money (loan, that is), provided you have a co-signer. You're going to be a doctor, for Pete's Sake! Who cares that you rack up a few thousands in debt! You will pay it off eventually. Remember that nice house you bought with that great job you had, that mortgage you owned, and the family you supported to house them? Those cost a few thousands, right? So now you're flat broke, facing creditors on your back, possibly lost your house, living in a squalid apartment thanks to the greedy banks, and now you are fretting about medical school financing. You are not alone. There is NO shame....NONE in your situation. The economy bites. And Congress and the President are to blame (both Republicans and Democrats) for forgetting about the "little people"....which is most of us.
Ya see! NO PROBLEM!

Stafford Loan and Direct Plus Loan will cover medical school matriculation and associated living expenses for accredited USA MD/DO Schools. If you plan on attending Yale, Harvard or John Hopkins, then you might have to sell the wife and kids into slavery. Kidding!

Low GPA? no problem. do it over. And again, and again, until you get it right! Stop your excuses!!!

How badly do you want to be a doctor?

Oh, what's that? you don't want to take Organic Chemistry for the third time, really feel humiliated about repeating Physics II because you earned a C twice, and just hate the idea of being in post-bacc studies yet another year for General Chemistry II and that lab where you started a fire?

You obviously don't want to be a doctor. I hear it's pretty easy to get into Nursing School. go pick up your white hat over there.

Over here, right here, on this page, right in front of you, you are looking at future doctors! And I don't mean VooDoo Doctors, but real life Medical Doctors.

Why?

Because we want it! We taste it! We feel it. Because we know, that nothing, absolutely nothing will be more rewarding, more satisfying, more exhilarating than going to the homeless shelter and caring for homeless people hooked on heroin where they feed their drug addiction into their open leg sores. You couldn't care less how smelly they are b/c you are focusing on the care and comfort you are providing them as a physician . You are not there to judge but to heal. And you love that caree calling. Why? Because your heart skips a beat when you see the viral picture on the internet of Pope Francis kissing the feet of children with HIV in Argentina. Because your heart starts to swoon when you think of Mother Teresa of Calcutta putting her white sari into the wounds of dying Indians who wanted to be held before they died, and you wished, darn it you wished, you had taken Organic Chemistry II to get a higher grade so that you could get into just one....only one MD school in the USA out of the 50 to which you applied. It just takes ONE school to get accepted!!!

What? You don't have the money to pay AMCAS the money to apply to 50 medical schools.

well, sweetie, you obviously don't want to be a doctor. Go play on Facebook and be someone great in your own little lonely world on the internet.

Step aside. The minority student standing behind you, who was raised by a single mother, who had no education, who's father was a drug dealer, who was raised in the inner city slum, who had emotional problems in school and failed his classes....yes, that guy, that guy right there behind you, HE wants to be a doctor. And you know why? Because little Ben came from abject poverty, was raised in Detroit by a single mother with no education, who worked as a maid cleaning the homes of rich white people, who's father was a dead beat dad who sold drugs and failed as a father, yes, Ben, little Ben, who got picked on at school for being black, had an anger problem, and lo and behold, he reached out to God and for adults to help him.

Today? Don't you know who Ben is? Stop playing so much on Facebook and Twitter. You are tweating your brain away!

Ben is retiring from John Hopkins Hospital as one of the most respected world wide Neurosurgeons in the World after decades work at John Hopkins.

Dr. Ben Carson, MD, wanted to be a doctor so badly that he did whatever it took to be a doctor. He almost failed his first semester in medical school and guess what he did? He got his act together, lived in the library at the University of Wisconsin Medical School, got into the Residency Program at John Hopkins and became the renowned, respected, beloved surgeon that got invited by President Barack Obama recently to the 2013 National Prayer Breakfast Conference. President George W. Bush awarded him a Presidential Medal of Freedom

Ben became a doctor because he wanted it badly enough.

So tell me, what are you going to do, now that you've read this ubber motivating post, that has called you out on your excuses, and laid it out for all to read.....

do you want to be a doctor or don't you?

how badly do you want it?

Keep us posted.

Hugs

- posted by an older, non-traditional first year medical school who writes from experience
pss: excuse the typos or errors. This isn't for AMCAS Medical School Essay. I'm done with that already!

http://roadlesstraveledmd.wordpress.com/

So I've just got to know: how many puppies would you drown to go to medical school?

 

[BurberryDoc]

So I've just got to know: how many puppies would you drown to go to medical school?

11 and a half.