How can someone who failed out of Dental School get into Medical School?

[GoPenguinsGo]

Disclaimer: This is not me asking for myself, but asking so I can advise a friend of mine. Long story short, she failed out of her DDS program after about year and half classes so she has about 90 credits at a 2.2 gradGPA I believe. She has been working in the Emergency Department as a tech for a year and half now and has decided she wants to pursue Emergency Medicine as a physician. She told me she has a 3.6 undergrad GPA. Is there any route (Caribbean does not count) she can take to being accepted to medical school with her academic past? I personally have not had the heart to tell her I do not believe it possible, but maybe you guys can chime in with your thoughts.

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[candbgirl]

I don’t know but does she think she won’t have to disclose her DDS failure?

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

I don’t know but does she think she won’t have to disclose her DDS failure?

No shes aware theres an IA (she was dismissed from the program) and they will see her DDS grades

 

[LizzyM]

It could happen but not before 2030. A very non-traditional, older student who had an academic problem about a decade ago might have a chance but there would need to be some recent demonstration of academic excellence. Frankly, I'd recommend finding another outlet for the desire to help people in emergency situations. EMT-B or paramedic might be options.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

It could happen but not before 2030. A very non-traditional, older student who had an academic problem about a decade ago might have a chance but there would need to be some recent demonstration of academic excellence. Frankly, I'd recommend finding another outlet for the desire to help people in emergency situations. EMT-B or paramedic might be options.

Yeah, I've suggested maybe being a PA that specializes in Emergency Med to her.

Edit: That is not to diminish the difficulty in becoming a PA. I'm just trying to say it might be easier to gain admission to a PA program with some distance between herself and her DDS failure than it would be gain admission to a medical school.

 

[alm414]

Any explanation for why she failed out of dental school? It would be one thing if she left of her own accord, but I have to imagine failing out of any graduate school program, even one entirely unrelated to medicine, is going to look really really bad to adcom's.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Any explanation for why she failed out of dental school? It would be one thing if she left of her own accord, but I have to imagine failing out of any graduate school program, even one entirely unrelated to medicine, is going to look really really bad to adcom's.

The most she has told me is she was struggling being away from home for the first time and she had a lot of abusive boyfriends. That's all she has told me, and I haven't had the heart to say "ADCOMs won't accept that excuse" to her.

 

[candbgirl]

The most she has told me is she was struggling being away from home for the first time and she had a lot of abusive boyfriends. That's all she has told me, and I haven't had the heart to say "ADCOMs won't accept that excuse" to her.

Has she done counseling/therapy for all those things. Maybe she could talk to her counselor. Does she know that only 40% of all applicants each cycle get into med school.? Perhaps she just needs to app,y and see what happens if she’s not open to listening to advice.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Has she done counseling/therapy for all those things. Maybe she could talk to her counselor. Does she know that only 40% of all applicants each cycle get into med school.? Perhaps she just needs to app,y and see what happens if she’s not open to listening to advice.

I'm not sure but she seems to have moved past them from what I can tell. She actually applied this cycle and has not gotten any interview invites (only pre-interview Rejection letters) from all schools she applied to. She seems convinced that her 506 MCAT (126/126/127/127) is holding her back and is deadset on a summer MCAT retake. She's in a Masters of Pharmacology program (she's a first-year [I'm a second year], which is how I know her) and so far in our program she has a 3.6 GPA, and she also seems convinced ace-ing our program will put ADCOM minds at ease.

 

[LizzyM]

She could be right about the MCAT but the DDS GPA isn't doing her any favors either. No surprise that she has no interview invites.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

She could be right about the MCAT but the DDS GPA isn't doing her any favors either. No surprise that she has no interview invites.

Well shes acting as if getting a 90th+ percentile score on the MCAT is going to mean she lands a med school acceptance.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

1) she failed out of a professional medical program and that is nearly an impossible hill to overcome
2) she did so with "a lot of abusive boyfriends" which implies she may again seeks a similar kind of man and be in the same problem
3) Her performance on the MCAT is nearly meaningless as her performance (or lack there of) in a sustained program of dental school is better evidence of her ability.

Translation: I need to grow a pair and tell her to find a new career path.

Alrighty, I accept my fate wise gonnif.

PA? Nurse? NP? Who knows. Alright everyone, if I dont return to these forums look for my corpse in a nearby river

 

[GreenDuck12]

PA programs are uber competitive - that path is unlikely. Nursing could be a go.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

I would tell her a career outside of clinical medicine period. Only way she will get into MD school in the USA is as a cadaver. And frankly I think it would be much crueler to let her spend time, money and effort on a nearly certain lost cause. I deal primarily with nontraditonals, atypical, and problematic candidates and this is one of the few times I would say dont even try.

*Sigh*
As usual, you’re probably right. If I am murdered upon delivering the news, I’d like one of @Goro or @Moko to give my eulogy. I’d like to be remembered as s good soldier, loyal to the SDN bretheren. Heck, maybe even @Lawpy will attend. Please have “Hallelujah” by Jeff Buckley playing at my funeral.

 

[Lawpy]

Wow, some of these posts are harsh. I mean, there's truth to them but geez.

Sorry OP. I think LizzyM's suggestion is your best bet. The dental school dismissal is a pretty bad red flag that idk how to overcome. I'm scared to suggest new DO schools since i doubt they'll even be ok with a dismissal.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Wow, some of these posts are harsh. I mean, there's truth to them but geez.

Sorry OP. I think LizzyM's suggestion is your best bet. The dental school dismissal is a pretty bad red flag that idk how to overcome. I'm scared to suggest new DO schools since i doubt they'll even be ok with a dismissal.

He lives!

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Update: I brought up potentially becoming a Nurse or NP aaaaamd its not going well so far

 

[Lawpy]

Update: I brought up potentially becoming a Nurse or NP aaaaamd its not going well so far

Send her the link of this thread

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

I personally know someone who failed out of PA school and went RN -> NP. The days of needing x years as nurse to become NP are over (like it or not). If she wants to practice medicine in any "provider" esque capacity, this is the only real path forward. No PA school will take a risk on her.

 

[GreenDuck12]

You can graduate from professional school and pursue other professional degrees to change careers. It’s possible to leave professional programs due to extenuating life circumstances and pursue that path again (death, serious illness, major trauma, etc). But failing a professional program just doesn’t allow for a second chance. There are simply too many others who are qualified to take the risk.

 

[8YearsLate]

"Just go to PA school and be done with it" - lol. Like filing taxes or walkin a dog, ya know? Duh.

 

[Moko]

*Sigh*
As usual, you’re probably right. If I am murdered upon delivering the news, I’d like one of @Goro or @Moko to give my eulogy. I’d like to be remembered as s good soldier, loyal to the SDN bretheren. Heck, maybe even @Lawpy will attend. Please have “Hallelujah” by Jeff Buckley playing at my funeral.

I don't do eulogies for people whose body we can't find. And judging from your text, the odds aren't looking good. Hope you left a trial of lobster bits so our cats/dogs can lead us to you. They have fancy tastes.

For your "friend", I echo what LizzyM and gonnif said. If someone asked me to create the most uncompetitive and risky application I could think of, having failed professional school would definitely be up there, right next to uncontrolled severe mental health issues, prison time for murder, etc.

Having a good performance in your current Masters program is insufficient to alleviate the significant concerns about her academic performance. Masters GPAs are frequently inflated, and in terms of rigor, is incomparable to either dental school or medical school. Even if her dental school performance was flanked by a lackluster undergrad GPA (let's call it for what it is) and a perfect Masters GPA, the abysmal dental school performance telegraphs that she is essentially going to be a 'boom or bust' student. Sure, she *might* do well in medical school, but we could just as easily be setting her up for failure and further debt. Are we willing to chance producing one less physician by taking this completely unnecessary risk when there are piles of perfectly fine candidates who already go unmatched each year?

She had her shot and she blew it. Part of growing up includes learning to accept the consequences of one's own actions. I do not foresee her getting into any reputable medical school in the foreseeable future. If sufficient time has passed AND she was able to demonstrate consistent academic and professional excellence, then *maybe* she can find a sympathetic committee? It's within the realm of possibility, but I certainly would not bet on it. The odds will still be heavily stacked against her. She needs to pursue plan B.

Hopefully she can find a decent paying job with the Masters in pharmacology. If she must have direct patient care, become a RN then NP. She can still do good and 'make a difference', just not as a physician. Best of luck to her and whatever's left of you. RIP

 

[Goro]

*Sigh*
As usual, you’re probably right. If I am murdered upon delivering the news, I’d like one of @Goro or @Moko to give my eulogy. I’d like to be remembered as s good soldier, loyal to the SDN bretheren. Heck, maybe even @Lawpy will attend. Please have “Hallelujah” by Jeff Buckley playing at my funeral.

You're a good friend, but she's in denial big time. As hard as it is, you're going to have to stand back and let her learn from her own mistakes.

My closest friend in high school had this habit of no matter how many times you told him "don't hit that tree in the middle of the road" would have to, just HAVE TO, hit that tree.

You friend would be DOA at my school.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

I don't do eulogies for people whose body we can't find. And judging from your text, the odds aren't looking good. Hope you left a trial of lobster bits so our cats/dogs can lead us to you. They have fancy tastes.

For your "friend", I echo what LizzyM and gonnif said. If someone asked me to create the most uncompetitive and risky application I could think of, having failed professional school would definitely be up there, right next to uncontrolled severe mental health issues, prison time for murder, etc.

Having a good performance in your current Masters program is insufficient to alleviate the significant concerns about her academic performance. Masters GPAs are frequently inflated, and in terms of rigor, is incomparable to either dental school or medical school. Even if her dental school performance was flanked by a lackluster undergrad GPA (let's call it for what it is) and a perfect Masters GPA, the abysmal dental school performance telegraphs that she is essentially going to be a 'boom or bust' student. Sure, she *might* do well in medical school, but we could just as easily be setting her up for failure and further debt. Are we willing to chance producing one less physician by taking this completely unnecessary risk when there are piles of perfectly fine candidates who already go unmatched each year?

She had her shot and she blew it. Part of growing up includes learning to accept the consequences of one's own actions. I do not foresee her getting into any reputable medical school in the foreseeable future. If sufficient time has passed AND she was able to demonstrate consistent academic and professional excellence, then *maybe* she can find a sympathetic committee? It's within the realm of possibility, but I certainly would not bet on it. The odds will still be heavily stacked against her. She needs to pursue plan B.

Hopefully she can find a decent paying job with the Masters in pharmacology. If she must have direct patient care, become a RN then NP. She can still do good and 'make a difference', just not as a physician. Best of luck to her and whatever's left of you. RIP

I'll leave a trail of creme brulee for your pets to follow. I'll be the corpse with the missing limbs, head, and probably mutilated genital region.

You're a good friend, but she's in denial big time. As hard as it is, you're going to have to stand back and let her learn from her own mistakes.

My closest friend in high school had this habit of no matter how many times you told him "don't hit that tree in the middle of the road" would have to, just HAVE TO, hit that tree.

You friend would be DOA at my school.

I guess I should tell her at some point. The MCAT, application cycle, and materials for all these things are not cheap, so I'll have to probably tell her before too long. Refer to the above for what I expect my corpse to look like.


As an aside, I like to picture you both as actually being the pet in your avatar. Same goes with @Catalystik . Like for you Goro, I picture you as actually being a self-aware black cat who can type and is sending me these messages. I also picture @LizzyM as secretly being Judi Dench giving me medical school advice. And I'm all for it.

Edit: I also like to picture @gyngyn as a sleepy cat giving me medical school advice as well.

 

[Goro]

The MCAT, application cycle, and materials for all these things are not cheap, so I'll have to probably tell her before too long.

Why do you need to tell her anything? She's clearly not listening to reason now.

And yes, tall those app things are expensive, but it's her lesson to learn. Often the best lessons we learn are those we learn the hard way.

You can't control her; she's not your property or child, either. Learn how to let go.

 

[theendisnigh]

I really don't understand the disdain at the idea of being a nurse, that sounds very immature. What do you think nurses do? Take care of patients, add some notes to the chart, oftentimes catch small details other members of the care team may have missed, serve as extremely valuable members to a team that requires all sides to be supported. There's advancement levels to nursing. We want to be doctors because we're masochists willing to put ourselves through 10+ years of training, but at the end of the day nurses techs paramedics PAs NPs generalists specialists we all do patient care.

She needs to do a lot more research if she thinks that getting into PA school will be a walk in the park.

 

[NITRAS]

The PA associated with my MD school wouldn't even take one look at her application. She sounds like trouble. If you're dating her then I suggest finding a way to create some distance between the two of you before she takes you down with her.

Also, I don't know what kind of classes your master's in pharmacology entails but I am guessing it's not as rigorous as an SMP considering it's a two-year program. Her 3.6 won't impress anyone given her 2.2 in a more rigorous program (aka dental school). She should have enrolled in a 10 month SMP and 4.0ed that if she wanted to impress any adcom.

If you were dating her, I’d run like hell and make sure I ate individually packaged food for the next six months.

 

[LunaOri]

Update: I brought up potentially becoming a Nurse or NP aaaaamd its not going well so farView attachment 330523

This is a very hostile response to your attempt ti help. I recommend distancing yourself from this person.

 

[DNAJB6]

This is a very hostile response to your attempt ti help. I recommend distancing yourself from this person.

This. Let her fall flat on her face.

 

[DNAJB6]

1) she failed out of a professional medical program and that is nearly an impossible hill to overcome
2) she did so with "a lot of abusive boyfriends" which implies she may again seeks a similar kind of man and be in the same problem
3) Her performance on the MCAT is nearly meaningless as her performance (or lack there of) in a sustained program of dental school is better evidence of her ability.

I disagree with #3. Her MCAT performance is yet another red flag. A 506 MCAT score is problematic. Not fatal alone, but considering DDS IA it is another nail in the coffin for allopathic med schools.

 

[candbgirl]

This is a very hostile response to your attempt ti help. I recommend distancing yourself from this person.

This. Take a giant step back. Cut off as much contact as possible. While she probably needs a friend she needs a professional who will tell her the truth and help her deal with it.

 

[ParaMagic1]

A friend takes constructive criticism from someone they respect.... I don't see this here.

 

[Doctor-S]

FWIW ... your friend is also welcome to look at the responses to your post on SDN.

You don't need to say anything more.

Just a suggestion.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Just to update everyone again: I told her Med Schools are not going to simply look past her DDS grades, no matter her MCAT score. And the only way for her to see patients is as an RN then eventually as an NP. She then became irate and said I'm "just like everyone else" and is even more deadset on proving me (us) wrong by applying the upcoming cycle with a new MCAT and scoring an acceptance.

Sigh. It's like watching a train wreck in real time.

 

[theendisnigh]

Just to update everyone again: I told her Med Schools are not going to simply look past her DDS grades, no matter her MCAT score. And the only way for her to see patients is as an RN then eventually as an NP. She then became irate and said I'm "just like everyone else" and is even more deadset on proving me (us) wrong by applying the upcoming cycle with a new MCAT and scoring an acceptance.

Sigh. It's like watching a train wreck in real time.

Sometimes people are just hard-headed and need to learn things the hard away, taken from a hard-headed person.

 

[Goro]

Just to update everyone again: I told her Med Schools are not going to simply look past her DDS grades, no matter her MCAT score. And the only way for her to see patients is as an RN then eventually as an NP. She then became irate and said I'm "just like everyone else" and is even more deadset on proving me (us) wrong by applying the upcoming cycle with a new MCAT and scoring an acceptance.

Sigh. It's like watching a train wreck in real time.

Cognitive dissonance is real. I suppose denial is part of the grieving process, but you've done your part.

 

[KnightDoc]

@GoPenguinsGo -- I know you said in your OP that Caribbean was not under consideration, but, given how stubborn your friend is and how one-sided the reaction in this thread is, I wonder whether the adcoms would agree that this might be an exception to the Caribbean rule?

After all, it's not like her IA is the type of legal issue that would prevent future licensing. It's clearly high risk-high reward, but it's an opportunity for her to bet on herself if she is intent on attempting this. Assuming she has a pulse, there will certainly be a taker.

If she does well, she probably has at least a 50% chance of becoming a licensed MD, and that's better than the 0% chance she has now. If it doesn't work out, she'll know she didn't leave any stone unturned, which should allow her to better accept whatever comes next. In addition, giving this suggestion to her has the virtue of allowing you to live to serve society as well!

You never mentioned how she financed dental school, but if she has a way to pay for it, or is willing to accept the debt necessary to pursue this dream (which could include income based debt forgiveness down the road if things really go south, assuming the school is eligible for federal loans), it might be better than living a life filled with regret and woulda, coulda, shoulda.

What does the group think?

 

[DO2015CA]

Just to update everyone again: I told her Med Schools are not going to simply look past her DDS grades, no matter her MCAT score. And the only way for her to see patients is as an RN then eventually as an NP. She then became irate and said I'm "just like everyone else" and is even more deadset on proving me (us) wrong by applying the upcoming cycle with a new MCAT and scoring an acceptance.

Sigh. It's like watching a train wreck in real time.

As bad as it sounds, I want to watch the train wreck since she’s been so resistant to an obviously good friend. Please keep us updated

 

[KnightDoc]

50% chance of becoming a doctor versus 50% chance of $200,000 to $300,000 of debt with no professional job as well as the debt from dental school. Some states licensing have required reviews if you have ever been dismissed from a professional or licensed program.

Yeah, I'm not saying I'd ever do it. On the other hand, I'd understand what being dismissed from dental school means with regard to future admission to similar programs.

That said, why would any state medical licensing board care about a dismissal from dental school prior to the successful completion of medical school, including all related board exams? I understand why a felony conviction or other similar black mark would make one unlicensable, but why would flunking out of dental school be relevant to a medical board after successful completion of medical training? I get that it might be a disclosure item, but why would it be relevant to a licensing decision, once a degree has been awarded and exams have been passed?

Again, I get why the dental school episode would be a red flag to a school not wanting to take a chance on someone, but Caribbean schools are not weighed down with such concerns. Once a program has been successfully completed, however, why on earth would a licensing board hold a prior failure in a related discipline against anyone????? I don't have anywhere near your level of experience, and don't mean to sound ignorant, but this makes no sense to me.

 

[Goro]

50% chance of becoming a doctor versus 50% chance of $200,000 to $300,000 of debt with no professional job as well as the debt from dental school. Some states licensing have required reviews if you have ever been dismissed from a professional or licensed program.

Is someone suggesting the Carib route? Like that will work for someone who makes bad choices, is resistant to advice, and has already failed out of a profession program? That's their business model! They love desperate, gullible marks!

"But what if she aces a SMP and gets a 525 on the MCAT!!!

Sorry, I'm not a believer in magic.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Update #3: This one’s gonna make everyone facepalm just as hard as I did, but her entire personal statement on AMCAS and AACOMAS is regarding her failure out of Dental School and how that pushed her towards clinical medicine.

I dont know why she felt the need to HIGHLIGHT that in her application either. Probably made the job easy for a lot of adcoms.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Is someone suggesting the Carib route? Like that will work for someone who makes bad choices, is resistant to advice, and has already failed out of a profession program? That's their business model! They love desperate, gullible marks!

"But what if she aces a SMP and gets a 525 on the MCAT!!!

Sorry, I'm not a believer in magic.

To be honest, even as a friend who cares for her, I will tell you a 525 is out of her reach. Shes capable of 512-514 though (which are still very strong scores)

 

[Goro]

Update #3: This one’s gonna make everyone facepalm just as hard as I did, but her entire personal statement on AMCAS and AACOMAS is regarding her failure out of Dental School and how that pushed her towards clinical medicine.

I dont know why she felt the need to HIGHLIGHT that in her application either. Probably made the job easy for a lot of adcoms.

This is a "don't know whether to laugh or cry" moment!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You're a good friend, but she's in denial big time. As hard as it is, you're going to have to stand back and let her learn from her own mistakes.

My closest friend in high school had this habit of no matter how many times you told him "don't hit that tree in the middle of the road" would have to, just HAVE TO, hit that tree.

You friend would be DOA at my school.

It's called tuition in the School of Life. Too many good candidates in all fields without a professional failure. I'm afraid they might become desperate and attend a Caribbean school or a for profit. OP, if there is anything left of him, should prevent her from doing this at all costs.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

It's called tuition in the School of Life. Too many good candidates in all fields without a professional failure. I'm afraid they might become desperate and attend a Caribbean school or a for profit. OP, if there is anything left of him, should prevent her from doing this at all costs.

The good news is she seems to understand Carib is NEVER an option. Her (faulty) back-up plan to is “just a become a PA and be done with it.” (see my screenshot of our text convo above) Her Plan C is to get a Masters of Engineering and do device research. She has a weird thing against being an NP. I’ve asked her why she so badly wants to be a physician and wont accept being an NP and she always says its because she wants “to be the expert.” (Im not in love with that answer tbh but among all her problems this is a *relatively* small one)


If I HAD to bet, I’d say Plan C is the only available avenue shes open to.

 

[DNAJB6]

Just avoid the subject matter with her. She'll figure it out eventually.

 

[DNAJB6]

If I HAD to bet, I’d say Plan C is the only available avenue shes open to.

I hear Uber drivers are quite popular. Alternatively she could start at Starbucks and work her way up to manager.

 

[Dave1980]

Not impossible

Former Harvard Fencing Coach, Wealthy Father Indicted In $1.5 Million Admissions Scam

Peter Brand, who was fired by Harvard last year, and Jie "Jack" Zhao of Potomac, Maryland, face a charge of conspiracy to commit federal programs bribery. They were arrested last month.

www.wbur.org

Does her family have several hundreds of thousands of dollars they can use to bribe an admin?

 

[Middle Age DDS]

The answer is it can happen in an very rare situations, but not for your friend. When I was in school there was as student that was excellent academically but had really poor hand skills. So if I recall she ultimately dropped out and matriculated into Medical School. She had lots of hooks as well to get in. We can only hope she stayed on the medicine side of things. Carry on, on, great advice.

 

[KnightDoc]

New York State Education Law, where licensing for almost all professions emulates from, has a requirement that all applicants must be of "good morale character." Applicants are basically assumed to have good character unless evidence is presented to contrary. Part of the regulations developed from this law include any dismissal from any academic, vocational, or profession program be considered. While dismissal from some college or beauty school likely wont raise the ire of the licensing board, being kicked out of dental school which most physician licensing board members will perceive as less difficult than medical school, will raise more than an eyebrow. They will interrogate the applicant how did they make it thru, will they handle the rigor of residency, will they suffer the same stresses in practice, will they put patients at risk because of it. And would we look as a board or a profession as a whole if take a risk and license this person.

Now cascade this down. Would you as a residency director in a New York State program, take a chance on an individual like this? Maybe the stress they got in dental school was somehow hidden in MD school, maybe they will crack here? Cascade this down, would an MD school take a chance on both their past history and their possible future challenges, specifically how can we as a med school risk our reputation with residency programs or the state education department by taking in a problematic student who could fail later on.

I hear you, and I absolutely HATE to be in the position of arguing on behalf of Caribbean schools. I would never do it, and I agree that whatever stresses caused dismissal from dental school would probably also result in failure at an off-shore med school, given their weed-out business model. I was merely asking if this might not be the last resort situation those schools were made for, since surely no US school will take a chance on this person?

The New York requirements you are citing seem to relate to people being dismissed for reasons like academic integrity, etc., not flunking out. What residency director would take a chance? The same one that has no problem with Caribbean graduates in general, since it's the exact the same risk!

People go to the Caribbean for all sorts of reasons, none of them good. I would honestly think that anyone making it through the gauntlet of a Caribbean school and making it to the match probably placed whatever issues caused the failure in dental school in the rear view mirror, and the explanation of how that occurred would most likely satisfy any questions about fitness going forward. I mean, it's not like any of these boards bat 1.000 with respect to never having issues with physicians they have licensed.

Again, not my ideal candidate, but no Caribbean graduate ever is, and plenty of them place each year. How is it any different than any reinvention candidate, other than the fact that the Caribbean MD crucible is far more intense and prolonged than the typical 30-60 credit post-bacc GPA repair that some adcoms like to see before championing for the underdog and loving comeback stories?

Honestly, I was just throwing it out as a last ditch suggestion for the person who won't take no for an answer. I also wouldn't bet on the person successfully making it through the academic portion of a Caribbean program. BUT, if she did, it just seems to me that licensing shouldn't be a hurdle merely because, at another time, in another place, in another health-related field, the applicant flunked out for reasons not related to ethical misconduct. I just can't accept that as a legitimate metric to use in granting a license to practice medicine, not dentistry!