How can someone who failed out of Dental School get into Medical School?

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gonnif

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Yeah, I'm not saying I'd ever do it. On the other hand, I'd understand what being dismissed from dental school means with regard to future admission to similar programs.

That said, why would any state medical licensing board care about a dismissal from dental school prior to the successful completion of medical school, including all related board exams? I understand why a felony conviction or other similar black mark would make one unlicensable, but why would flunking out of dental school be relevant to a medical board after successful completion of medical training? I get that it might be a disclosure item, but why would it be relevant to a licensing decision, once a degree has been awarded and exams have been passed?

Again, I get why the dental school episode would be a red flag to a school not wanting to take a chance on someone, but Caribbean schools are not weighed down with such concerns. Once a program has been successfully completed, however, why on earth would a licensing board hold a prior failure in a related discipline against anyone????? I don't have anywhere near your level of experience, and don't mean to sound ignorant, but this makes no sense to me.
New York State Education Law, where licensing for almost all professions emulates from, has a requirement that all applicants must be of "good morale character." Applicants are basically assumed to have good character unless evidence is presented to contrary. Part of the regulations developed from this law include any dismissal from any academic, vocational, or profession program be considered. While dismissal from some college or beauty school likely wont raise the ire of the licensing board, being kicked out of dental school which most physician licensing board members will perceive as less difficult than medical school, will raise more than an eyebrow. They will interrogate the applicant how did they make it thru, will they handle the rigor of residency, will they suffer the same stresses in practice, will they put patients at risk because of it. And would we look as a board or a profession as a whole if take a risk and license this person.

Now cascade this down. Would you as a residency director in a New York State program, take a chance on an individual like this? Maybe the stress they got in dental school was somehow hidden in MD school, maybe they will crack here? Cascade this down, would an MD school take a chance on both their past history and their possible future challenges, specifically how can we as a med school risk our reputation with residency programs or the state education department by taking in a problematic student who could fail later on.
 
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The answer is it can happen in an very rare situations, but not for your friend. When I was in school there was as student that was excellent academically but had really poor hand skills. So if I recall she ultimately dropped out and matriculated into Medical School. She had lots of hooks as well to get in. We can only hope she stayed on the medicine side of things. Carry on, on, great advice.
 

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New York State Education Law, where licensing for almost all professions emulates from, has a requirement that all applicants must be of "good morale character." Applicants are basically assumed to have good character unless evidence is presented to contrary. Part of the regulations developed from this law include any dismissal from any academic, vocational, or profession program be considered. While dismissal from some college or beauty school likely wont raise the ire of the licensing board, being kicked out of dental school which most physician licensing board members will perceive as less difficult than medical school, will raise more than an eyebrow. They will interrogate the applicant how did they make it thru, will they handle the rigor of residency, will they suffer the same stresses in practice, will they put patients at risk because of it. And would we look as a board or a profession as a whole if take a risk and license this person.

Now cascade this down. Would you as a residency director in a New York State program, take a chance on an individual like this? Maybe the stress they got in dental school was somehow hidden in MD school, maybe they will crack here? Cascade this down, would an MD school take a chance on both their past history and their possible future challenges, specifically how can we as a med school risk our reputation with residency programs or the state education department by taking in a problematic student who could fail later on.
I hear you, and I absolutely HATE to be in the position of arguing on behalf of Caribbean schools. I would never do it, and I agree that whatever stresses caused dismissal from dental school would probably also result in failure at an off-shore med school, given their weed-out business model. I was merely asking if this might not be the last resort situation those schools were made for, since surely no US school will take a chance on this person?

The New York requirements you are citing seem to relate to people being dismissed for reasons like academic integrity, etc., not flunking out. What residency director would take a chance? The same one that has no problem with Caribbean graduates in general, since it's the exact the same risk!

People go to the Caribbean for all sorts of reasons, none of them good. I would honestly think that anyone making it through the gauntlet of a Caribbean school and making it to the match probably placed whatever issues caused the failure in dental school in the rear view mirror, and the explanation of how that occurred would most likely satisfy any questions about fitness going forward. I mean, it's not like any of these boards bat 1.000 with respect to never having issues with physicians they have licensed. :)

Again, not my ideal candidate, but no Caribbean graduate ever is, and plenty of them place each year. How is it any different than any reinvention candidate, other than the fact that the Caribbean MD crucible is far more intense and prolonged than the typical 30-60 credit post-bacc GPA repair that some adcoms like to see before championing for the underdog and loving comeback stories?

Honestly, I was just throwing it out as a last ditch suggestion for the person who won't take no for an answer. I also wouldn't bet on the person successfully making it through the academic portion of a Caribbean program. BUT, if she did, it just seems to me that licensing shouldn't be a hurdle merely because, at another time, in another place, in another health-related field, the applicant flunked out for reasons not related to ethical misconduct. I just can't accept that as a legitimate metric to use in granting a license to practice medicine, not dentistry!
 
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gonnif

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I hear you, and I absolutely HATE to be in the position of arguing on behalf of Caribbean schools. I would never do it, and I agree that whatever stresses caused dismissal from dental school would probably also result in failure at an off-shore med school, given their weed-out business model. I was merely asking if this might not be the last resort situation those schools were made for, since surely no US school will take a chance on this person?

The New York requirements you are citing seem to relate to people being dismissed for reasons like academic integrity, etc., not flunking out. What residency director would take a chance? The same one that has no problem with Caribbean graduates in general, since it's the exact the same risk!

People go to the Caribbean for all sorts of reasons, none of them good. I would honestly think that anyone making it through the gauntlet of a Caribbean school and making it to the match probably placed whatever issues caused the failure in dental school in the rear view mirror, and the explanation of how that occurred would most likely satisfy any questions about fitness going forward. I mean, it's not like any of these boards bat 1.000 with respect to never having issues with physicians they have licensed. :)

Again, not my ideal candidate, but no Caribbean graduate ever is, and plenty of them place each year. How is it any different than any reinvention candidate, other than the fact that the Caribbean MD crucible is far more intense and prolonged than the typical 30-60 credit post-bacc GPA repair that some adcoms like to see before championing for the underdog and loving comeback stories?

Honestly, I was just throwing it out as a last ditch suggestion for the person who won't take no for an answer. I also wouldn't bet on the person successfully making it through the academic portion of a Caribbean program. BUT, if she did, it just seems to me that licensing shouldn't be a hurdle merely because, at another time, in another place, in another health-related field, the applicant flunked out for reasons not related to ethical misconduct. I just can't accept that as a legitimate metric to use in granting a license to practice medicine, not dentistry!
whether you accept it or not, it is the way regulations work.
 
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KnightDoc

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whether you accept it or not, it is the way regulations work.
Okay -- then I guess that's another reason this would be a no-go! I still don't understand, but, then again, it's not my issue, so I don't have to! :cool:
 

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whether you accept it or not, it is the way regulations work.

Curious to know if you have (not personally) experience with this kind of regulation. We could also be reading the regulation to fit our argument. I also have a hard time seeing a licensing board not granting a license to a physician that passed all of their steps/med school because they had failed out of dentistry 5+ years ago. What makes it hard to believe for me is that these programs also grant licenses to physicians with criminal misdemeanors (that are old) without much more than a letter of explanation
 
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Angus Avagadro

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Curious to know if you have (not personally) experience with this kind of regulation. We could also be reading the regulation to fit our argument. I also have a hard time seeing a licensing board not granting a license to a physician that passed all of their steps/med school because they had failed out of dentistry 5+ years ago. What makes it hard to believe for me is that these programs also grant licenses to physicians with criminal misdemeanors (that are old) without much more than a letter of explanation
Your hypothetical, while possible, is quite improbable. OPs friend would first have to be accepted into a medical school. I agree with @gonnif , that about the only way she gets into a medical school now would be as a cadaver.( I really like that line, @gonnif, can I use it?) I'm sure there is also some hypothetical chance that with time and re invention, she could be accepted in 5 to 10 yrs. Her inability to grasp her current situation gives me reason to seriously doubt this as a possibility.
 
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KnightDoc

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Your hypothetical, while possible, is quite improbable. OPs friend would first have to be accepted into a medical school. I agree with @gonnif , that about the only way she gets into a medical school now would be as a cadaver.( I really like that line, @gonnif, can I use it?) I'm sure there is also some hypothetical chance that with time and re invention, she could be accepted in 5 to 10 yrs. Her inability to grasp her current situation gives me reason to seriously doubt this as a possibility.
The response was in response to my suggestion that Caribbean might be a possibility. I understand it would be high risk, but, assuming she does not qualify as a cadaver, she'd very likely qualify for admission. Then, it's not such an improbable hypothetical, assuming she's overcome whatever held her back in dental school.

Yes, it's a big leap to assume she'd successfully navigate the academics in the Caribbean after failing in dental school. The question is, assuming she can do so, would she really still be unable to get licensed due to academic issues not involving integrity or fraud, in another health related field? So, it's not a 10 year in the future thing. It's a, would academic difficulties in dental school really prevent someone from obtaining a US medical license after successful completion of a MD program thing?
 

gonnif

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Okay -- then I guess that's another reason this would be a no-go! I still don't understand, but, then again, it's not my issue, so I don't have to! :cool:

Curious to know if you have (not personally) experience with this kind of regulation. We could also be reading the regulation to fit our argument. I also have a hard time seeing a licensing board not granting a license to a physician that passed all of their steps/med school because they had failed out of dentistry 5+ years ago. What makes it hard to believe for me is that these programs also grant licenses to physicians with criminal misdemeanors (that are old) without much more than a letter of explanation
Yes, all the time. NYS has this requirement of "good moral character" and if you have a formal dismissal from UG or lost your license as a barber or beautician it needs to be addressed in a review. Remember, these regulations for licensing are as much about protecting the patients as they are in protecting the profession. State Licensing Boards for all medically-related fields are some of the most political and power/turf protecting groups you have ever seen.
 
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Im just spit ballin here but if she were to retake the MCAT and score as well as I believe she can (512-514), would even an SMP save her? I fear not because SMPs are usually one year, and her DDS was over 1.5 years so med schools could just think “So she held together for one singular year. So what? Who’s to say she can survive four years? Or 3+ years of residency?”
 

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Yes, all the time. NYS has this requirement of "good moral character" and if you have a formal dismissal from UG or lost your license as a barber or beautician it needs to be addressed in a review. Remember, these regulations for licensing are as much about protecting the patients as they are in protecting the profession. State Licensing Boards for all medically-related fields are some of the most political and power/turf protecting groups you have ever seen.

Then that’s what’s wrong with Ny not the student lol. Just because you failed academically and were kicked out does not preclude you from “good moral character”. It’s Much more likely that misdemeanors do.

Not saying they should continue down the path of pursuing med school. It’s just that NY’s specific rule is ridiculous.
 
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Yes, it's a big leap to assume she'd successfully navigate the academics in the Caribbean after failing in dental school.
Take it from me dude, she would not survive Carib. Part of the reason for her DDS failure was because she no longer lived at home with her parents (she did that in undergrad), and her DDS school was even in-state. She would never survive moving all the way to the Carib and trying to take on an MD program.
 
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Im just spit ballin here but if she were to retake the MCAT and score as well as I believe she can (512-514), would even an SMP save her? I fear not because SMPs are usually one year, and her DDS was over 1.5 years so med schools could just think “So she held together for one singular year. So what? Who’s to say she can survive four years? Or 3+ years of residency?”
Even with a good MCAT score, there remains the issue of her combative personality. I think that's enough to keep her out of any MD school.
 
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gonnif

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Then that’s what’s wrong with Ny not the student lol. Just because you failed academically and were kicked out does not preclude you from “good moral character”. It’s Much more likely that misdemeanors do.

Not saying they should continue down the path of pursuing med school. It’s just that NY’s specific rule is ridiculous.
The point of this thread is can this person go to medical school and get a license. And the answer is highly unlikely. Whether that is the person's fault or stupidity of the regulation is irrelevant. It is the reality of the situation
 
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DO2015CA

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The point of this thread is can this person go to medical school and get a license. And the answer is highly unlikely. Whether that is the person's fault or stupidity of the regulation is irrelevant. It is the reality of the situation

Agreed about chance of successfully practicing. It’s just flabbergasting that they would deny someone a license for failing out of another field if that applicant had successfully passed the benchmarks of competency (steps) in our field.
 
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gonnif

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Agreed about chance of successfully practicing. It’s just flabbergasting that they would deny someone a license for failing out of another field if that applicant had successfully passed the benchmarks of competency (steps) in our field.
Its risk aversion, one of the basic values of the medical subculture. Here it is risk of making the profession look bad.
 
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It should go without saying that the specific person in this post seems to have too much cognitive dissonance and/or personality problems to get through medical school.

However, I think someone who fails out of a professional school for external reasons (e.g. serious but resolved illness/trauma) could have a future at a European medical school if they are otherwise capable of the rigors of medical school. Getting in is easy if you can break 500 on the MCAT. You still need a spotless criminal record, getting licensed in Germany for exampkle requires you to submit an FBI background check and a German background check at a level of detail normally reserved for police officers and foreign service workers. Most importantly, you have to be okay with practicing medicine in Europe.

You risk much much less debt going this route (<$80k for a 6 year degree including living expenses and tuition), don't have to worry about matching back into the US like Carib grads, and if you like learning languages, finding a residency is easy in a handful of Western and Central European countries. You will make about as much as a European attending as a PA makes in the US ($90-150k/yr), but you will be a doctor if that is your dream. Also, better conditions during residency and 0% threat of mid-levels. Not a bad life if you want to be a doctor more than you care about living in the US.

Again, this is a path for someone who has the capacity to handle medical school and residency, but life threw them a curve ball that took them out of their professional school or undergraduate school. This is NOT a pathway to practicing medicine in the US, even though some European schools advertise themselves as such. The only benefit that European schools have over the Caribbean ones in a pathway to US residency situation is that they are 1/2 to 1/40th the price and you get an EU degree which lets you practice in many EU countries...not too many carib grads staying behind on the island to do residency there...
 

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*Sigh*
As usual, you’re probably right. If I am murdered upon delivering the news, I’d like one of @Goro or @Moko to give my eulogy. I’d like to be remembered as s good soldier, loyal to the SDN bretheren. Heck, maybe even @Lawpy will attend. Please have “Hallelujah” by Jeff Buckley playing at my funeral.
Why do you think she would kill you? If she's that scary/mean of a person, I doubt she's suited for healthcare anyway 😨
 

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Just to update everyone again: I told her Med Schools are not going to simply look past her DDS grades, no matter her MCAT score. And the only way for her to see patients is as an RN then eventually as an NP. She then became irate and said I'm "just like everyone else" and is even more deadset on proving me (us) wrong by applying the upcoming cycle with a new MCAT and scoring an acceptance.

Sigh. It's like watching a train wreck in real time.
If it makes you feel better, I had a UGrad friend who was like this. Almost applied w/o a gap year ( read: no clinical EC's done in college). She ended up taking a gap year but still had weak EC's. She worked as a medical scribe during her gap year. She had something like 3.5-3.6 sci gpa and something like 3.6-3.7 overall. 506 MCAT but that would make her fine for DO. She ended up not getting in, she was complete late but tbh, I don't really think she was actually passionate about medicine, or had the personality for it ( ik it sounds very harsh, but it be that way). She ended up going to SGU in the Carib. I know how it feels watching a train wreck happen.
 
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If it makes you feel better, I had a UGrad friend who was like this. Almost applied w/o a gap year ( read: no clinical EC's done in college). She ended up taking a gap year but still had weak EC's. She worked as a medical scribe during her gap year. She had something like 3.5-3.6 sci gpa and something like 3.6-3.7 overall. 506 MCAT but that would make her fine for DO. She ended up not getting in, she was complete late but tbh, I don't really think she was actually passionate about medicine, or had the personality for it ( ik it sounds very harsh, but it be that way). She ended up going to SGU in the Carib. I know how it feels watching a train wreck happen.
Did she apply DO? If so, and had no luck, there might be something else going on with her. It doesn't look like passion is the issue, since going Caribbean indicates passion, if not good sense. In 4 years, your friend is either going to be proving all the naysayers wrong, or will be on the picket line with the people in the article posted above.
 
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mwsapphire

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Did she apply DO? If so, and had no luck, there might be something else going on with her. It doesn't look like passion is the issue, since going Caribbean indicates passion, if not good sense. In 4 years, your friend is either going to be proving all the naysayers wrong, or will be on the picket line with the people in the article posted above.
I hope she does. She said she applied DO, although part of me thinks she may not have taken the DO apps as seriously as the MD apps.
IDK. She seems to have that vibe of more wanting the prestigious, well paying job than actually wanting to be in healthcare, tbh. I know that sounds awful, but PA school would have been more likely to land her a healthcare job than the Carib. And she had clinical employment as a scribe so she could have done that.

IDK, I was just telling the OP that watching a train wreck does feel bad. TBH our friendship kind of drifted by the time I graduated college ( I finished in 2019 , she finished in 2018.) I don't even thinks she knows I'm at a US DO school. It makes me sad from time to time. I hear she is going classes remotely right now bc of COVID, but she is still at that school. She started I think , in the spring of 2020 which is v weird. Def chalk it up to the weird Carib model.

Edit: Yes, I'm a sap.
 
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She might have a chance if she joins the military and does stellar. Nothing is better for a "I'm a completely different person" narrative that, frankly, she needs. If she's able-bodied there is no reason not too as she seems like she could use the life experience.

Also, I'm saying this as a vet so I'm not trying to be unrealistic. I graduated H.S with a 2.45 GPA and now I'm accepted to UVA. I 100% credit my time in the Marines for my success. I needed to grow up and there is nothing wrong admitting that. It sounds like your friend needs to as well.
 
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She might have a chance if she joins the military and does stellar. Nothing is better for a "I'm a completely different person" narrative that, frankly, she needs. If she's able-bodied there is no reason not too as she seems like she could use the life experience.

Also, I'm saying this as a vet so I'm not trying to be unrealistic. I graduated H.S with a 2.45 GPA and now I'm accepted to UVA. I 100% credit my time in the Marines for my success. I needed to grow up and there is nothing wrong admitting that. It sounds like your friend needs to as well.
I'll concur with this. But she sure has a lot of growing up to do first.

And to you, Semper Fi!!
 
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I'll concur with this. But she sure has a lot of growing up to do first.

And to you, Semper Fi!!
I'm gonna shoot you both down real quick. She does not have the discipline required of a person in the military. She actually puts the milk in the bowl before the cereal. You think people like my friend can make it through bootcamp with a drill sergeant screaming her face? Think again, my friends.
 
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I'm gonna shoot you both down real quick. She does not have the discipline required of a person in the military. She actually puts the milk in the bowl before the cereal. You think people like my friend can make it through bootcamp with a drill sergeant screaming her face? Think again, my friends.
You'd be surprised. I had a piss-poor attitude before enlisting and didn't take my academics that seriously. The military has a great capacity to change a person as long as they're willing to put in a tiny bit of work.
 
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I'm gonna shoot you both down real quick. She does not have the discipline required of a person in the military. She actually puts the milk in the bowl before the cereal. You think people like my friend can make it through bootcamp with a drill sergeant screaming her face? Think again, my friends.


First, I would never underestimate the effectiveness of military training. It's not like any of us are naturally good at getting shouted at.

Second, unless she has some kind of disability... why would I want her as my physician if she didn't have the discipline to be in the military? I mean, I was 17 when I went to boot-camp. I was literally a teenager for half of my service. I'm not saying everyone should or has to join but if you were functionally incapable because of a lack of discipline and ability to adapt, I really question why you think you should have positions of responsibility as highly respected as that of a physician.
 
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First, I would never underestimate the effectiveness of military training. It's not like any of us are naturally good at getting shouted at.

Second, unless she has some kind of disability... why would I want her as my physician if she didn't have the discipline to be in the military? I mean, I was 17 when I went to boot-camp. I was literally a teenager for half of my service. I'm not saying everyone should or has to join but if you were functionally incapable because of a lack of discipline and ability to adapt, I really question why you think you should have positions of responsibility as highly respected as that of a physician.
One still needs the intellectual firepower to make it through medical school.
 
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I'm gonna shoot you both down real quick. She does not have the discipline required of a person in the military. She actually puts the milk in the bowl before the cereal. You think people like my friend can make it through bootcamp with a drill sergeant screaming her face? Think again, my friends.
Uh-oh. Are you actually dating/living with this person? Because she is demonstrating qualities (rigidity, anger, inability to listen, lack of insight) that make for difficulty in relationships as well as in career. If you were my kid, I'd be telling you to get out while you still can!
 
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I'm gonna shoot you both down real quick. She does not have the discipline required of a person in the military. She actually puts the milk in the bowl before the cereal. You think people like my friend can make it through bootcamp with a drill sergeant screaming her face? Think again, my friends.
I...I put milk in before the cereal and then microwave it...and I like pineapple on pizza...
But I did do a few years of JROTC and loved the experience so I suppose that makes a difference lol
 
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I...I put milk in before the cereal and then microwave it...and I like pineapple on pizza...
But I did do a few years of JROTC and loved the experience so I suppose that makes a difference lol
Sorry did you say you microwave your cereal?
 
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Sorry did you say you microwave your cereal?
I put the milk in the bowl, microwave the milk, then add cereal on top. I have Asian parents who don't believe in drinking cold liquids, so milk is included in that category lol
 
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DO2015CA

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I put the milk in the bowl, microwave the milk, then add cereal on top. I have Asian parents who don't believe in drinking cold liquids, so milk is included in that category lol

I think you might be a monster.. lol jk. I had not heard of that before. Who knows it might be good
 

mwsapphire

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Or grits!
Not me trying to get into steel cut oatmeal bc I'm always hungry an hour after I eat my breakfast....I literally was just trying to figure out the whole overnight oats thing so I can have it ready the next AM without having to fire up the stove.....
 

Goro

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Not me trying to get into steel cut oatmeal bc I'm always hungry an hour after I eat my breakfast....I literally was just trying to figure out the whole overnight oats thing so I can have it ready the next AM without having to fire up the stove.....
More fussy to cook, as the risk of boiling over is real, but I like the steel cut variety as well!

Programmable crockpot might solve your problem
 
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mwsapphire

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More fussy to cook, as the risk of boiling over is real, but I like the steel cut variety as well!

Programmable crockpot might solve your problem
I've heard of like..cold overnight oats and also just making in a stove the night before and then putting it in the fridge. I need something with not a lot of AM prep but is also filling. I have an instant pot but I wanna try it overnight first.
 
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I've heard of like..cold overnight oats and also just making in a stove the night before and then putting it in the fridge. I need something with not a lot of AM prep but is also filling. I have an instant pot but I wanna try it overnight first.
rolled oats, milk, maple syrup in a Tupperware container and then shake and leave in the fridge! That’s been my breakfast for a while lol
 
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GoPenguinsGo

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Oh mighty Gyngyn! I summon thee to aid me in my time of need. I request thee shall remind everyone here to “Lets stay focused”!

I offer up, in tribute and in sacrifice, one naive pre-med already telling his friends he will be a pediatric aeronautical oncological cardiothoracic surgeon while getting a B- in Gen Chem 1!


Please, mighty @gyngyn , accept thy offering and restore balance to the thread!
 
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LittleBrother

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One still needs the intellectual firepower to make it through medical school.

Certainly. I'm not saying every veteran can become a physician or that joining the military is an easy path into medicine (in my experience it isn't).

I just wanted the point out that plenty of teenagers can learn to thrive in the military and that it's hardly a mystery as to what goes on. It's just an organization where even simple tasks are gravely important. Whatever your job is, you are expected to do it well. So, I dislike excuses people make when they say "this person couldn't handle the military..." like, handle what? Professionalism? Being held to a standard? Showing up to work on time? The big things I got out of my time were simple. I learned that when people taught me things they expected me to practice them until I could do them well. I learned that when people wanted my squad somewhere I was responsible for making that happen. I learned that if I could not lead well then I would be lead.

I think these are all pretty straight forward lessons and you definitely don't need to join the military to learn them, however if you are able bodied and couldn't theoretically handle basic life in the military I question how you can handle many other professions.
 
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I've heard of like..cold overnight oats and also just making in a stove the night before and then putting it in the fridge. I need something with not a lot of AM prep but is also filling. I have an instant pot but I wanna try it overnight first.
They make quick-cook steel cut oats. Still takes about 20 minutes, but you can make a big batch once a week and keep it in the fridge.
 
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