How common is it for a DO to get a MD residency?

[disque71]

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What do you guys think?

 

[Taus]

depends on the specialty...

 

[group_theory]

Also depends on the school and location.

Schools that are located in areas with a large amount of AOA residencies will have higher placements into AOA residency (such as new york, pennsylvania, michigan, florida)

Schools with relatively few AOA residencies will have more of its graduates going into ACGME (MD) residencies. Look at Texas as an example.

 

[JO300]

Also depends on the school and location.

Schools that are located in areas with a large amount of AOA residencies will have higher placements into AOA residency (such as new york, pennsylvania, michigan, florida)

Schools with relatively few AOA residencies will have more of its graduates going into ACGME (MD) residencies. Look at Texas as an example.

I do not think the school or it's location are big factors in residency.
correct me if I am wrong.

 

[OSUdoc08]

What do you guys think?

Very common. A very large percentage of DO's go into MD residencies.

Some residencies are more competitive than others, however.

 

[drtongue_danger]

AOA Presdent told us last month that 60% of DO students go into Allo residencys
sounds like a good amount to me

 

[AwesomeO-DO]

For me its all about geographical location and the fact that there are no DO residencies in that area. I could probably get my pick of DO spots but there are no spots to be had where i'm going

 

[OSUdoc08]

For me its all about geographical location and the fact that there are no DO residencies in that area. I could probably get my pick of DO spots but there are not spots to be had where i'm going

Where are you going that has no residencies?

 

[AwesomeO-DO]

Where are you going that has no residencies?

no DO residencies (outside of FP) in Eastern Wisconsin

 

[OSUdoc08]

no DO residencies (outside of FP) in Eastern Wisconsin

Move. The Packers aren't that good anyway.

 

[Dr Alo]

I applied to a ton of MD surgery residencies and I got a ton of interviews. Did well on interviews, and my impression is that if I wanted to do surgery at any of those places, I could.

 

[group_theory]

I do not think the school or it's location are big factors in residency.
correct me if I am wrong.

Look at the match list of any schools (MD or DO). You will noticed that a good number of its students match into residencies near the school. This could be due to many factors, such as being from the area originally, having a working spouse/kids, liking a hospital during a core rotation, etc. The exception might be the highly-ranked MD schools (Harvard, Mayo, Hopkins, etc) but I haven't checked their match list so I don't know if it's true. But if you look at most MD schools and DO schools, you will see that trend. Check the matchlist for schools in Philly, Michigan, Texas, New York.

And if you look at the matchlist of DO schools, schools in regions with abundant AOA residencies will have higher grads going into AOA residencies compare to schools with only a few AOA residencies.

The trend to stay regional is stronger in public schools (and schools where the majority of its students are from the area) compared to private schools - to state the obvious

 

[JO300]

Look at the match list of any schools (MD or DO). You will noticed that a good number of its students match into residencies near the school. This could be due to many factors, such as being from the area originally, having a working spouse/kids, liking a hospital during a core rotation, etc. The exception might be the highly-ranked MD schools (Harvard, Mayo, Hopkins, etc) but I haven't checked their match list so I don't know if it's true. But if you look at most MD schools and DO schools, you will see that trend. Check the matchlist for schools in Philly, Michigan, Texas, New York.

And if you look at the matchlist of DO schools, schools in regions with abundant AOA residencies will have higher grads going into AOA residencies compare to schools with only a few AOA residencies.

The trend to stay regional is stronger in public schools (and schools where the majority of its students are from the area) compared to private schools - to state the obvious

Can I study in VA and get my residency at NY, CA or PA?
If your answer is yes so the location of my school does not have big impact on my residency.
I know it help if I study in NY to get recidency in NY.
I believe applying to recidency is the same as applying to medicial school, which you apply to many schools all over the USA while you wish for the best.

 

[letsrun4it]

I applied to a ton of MD surgery residencies and I got a ton of interviews. Did well on interviews, and my impression is that if I wanted to do surgery at any of those places, I could.

Did you get the feeling you were on an equal or near equal playing field as the MDs?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Can I study in VA and get my residency at NY, CA or PA?
If your answer is yes so the location of my school does not have big impact on my residency.
I know it help if I study in NY to get recidency in NY.
I believe applying to recidency is the same as applying to medicial school, which you apply to many schools all over the USA while you wish for the best.

1. You have an "upper hand" at getting residencies if you went to school in the area. This is evidenced by the fact that 90+ % of residency spots in a majority of my school's affiliated residencies are from graduates of my school, and the rest is almost completely filled by people from the closest schools to mine.

2. How did you do on the verbal section of the MCAT?

 

[JO300]

1. You have an "upper hand" at getting residencies if you went to school in the area.
2. How did you do on the verbal section of the MCAT?

1- I do not think so
2- Very very very bad.

 

[OSUdoc08]

1- I do not think so
2- Very very very bad.

Check the match lists and reevaluate your thoughts.

 

[LovelyRita]

I was rotating at an MD hospital, chatting with an MD resident (prelim surgery) about the MD/DO thing and me, being DO, potentially matching at an MD program, etc.

He's doing prelim surg because he applied ortho and didn't match. So he's reapplying this year. He may not get it--and may have to switch specialties, which, I'm sure most would agree, is a nauseating thought if you've decided what you want to do.

Anyway, I'm registered for both matches. A few months ago, a DO program I liked told me they wanted me on board. And there's an MD program in which the door seems to be open to me, if I want to take the gamble, since the matches are separate. 😡

The point is is that there are many MD's out there who are stuck and are a little miffed at the fact that DO's can apply/be accepted to both and MD's can't.

My question: all things being equal, how can we look our MD counterparts in the eye and give a valid reason as to why MD's can't apply DO?

Thoughts?

 

[Brett Hart]

My question: all things being equal, how can we look our MD counterparts in the eye and give a valid reason as to why MD's can't apply DO?
Thoughts?

We can't...it is a total double standard perpetuated by the AOA. We could run for office and then try to make some changes, but I think that the less attention that we call to this fact the better it would be for all of us.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I was rotating at an MD hospital, chatting with an MD resident (prelim surgery) about the MD/DO thing and me, being DO, potentially matching at an MD program, etc.

He's doing prelim surg because he applied ortho and didn't match. So he's reapplying this year. He may not get it--and may have to switch specialties, which, I'm sure most would agree, is a nauseating thought if you've decided what you want to do.

Anyway, I'm registered for both matches. A few months ago, a DO program I liked told me they wanted me on board. And there's an MD program in which the door seems to be open to me, if I want to take the gamble, since the matches are separate. 😡

The point is is that there are many MD's out there who are stuck and are a little miffed at the fact that DO's can apply/be accepted to both and MD's can't.

My question: all things being equal, how can we look our MD counterparts in the eye and give a valid reason as to why MD's can't apply DO?

Thoughts?

The AOA sets certain requirements for residencies to maintain their accreditation. This includes the incorporation of an osteopathic exam on practically all patients and the use of osteopathic manipulative techniques on patients as needed. If these are not followed, then the residency accreditation can be revoked. Obviously an MD cannot comply with these requirements.

 

[LovelyRita]

We can't...it is a total double standard perpetuated by the AOA. We could run for office and then try to make some changes, but I think that the less attention that we call to this fact the better it would be for all of us.

From a historical perspective, I wonder when it began to be allowed for DO's to apply/match at MD programs. Does this correlate with the closure of many DO hospitals?

Anyone know?

 

[LovelyRita]

This includes the incorporation of an osteopathic exam on practically all patients and the use of osteopathic manipulative techniques on patients as needed.

Ah. That's right, I forgot about that. Makes sense. BUT is total BS since I'd estimate less than 10% of practicing DO's actively use OMT.

I anticipate that sometime during my career there's going to be another change to physician licensure in the United States. Maybe Brett's right. Keep the word mum. 🙄

 

[OSUdoc08]

From a historical perspective, I wonder when it began to be allowed for DO's to apply/match at MD programs. Does this correlate with the closure of many DO hospitals?

Anyone know?

I'm not sure, but it could also be related to geography.

For example, before the Texas Osteopathic Hospital closed, there were not any AOA Emergency Medicine residencies in Texas. Obviously there still are none.

If DO's were not allowed to train in ACGME residencies, then it would be rare to find DO ER docs in Texas.

In reality, they are found in just about any ER in the state, and at times compose the majority of physicians in that department.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Ah. That's right, I forgot about that. Makes sense. BUT is total BS since I'd estimate less than 10% of practicing DO's actively use OMT.

I anticipate that sometime during my career there's going to be another change to physician licensure in the United States. Maybe Brett's right. Keep the word mum. 🙄

This is exactly why DO's should be allowed to train in ACGME residencies. (They don't need the AOA residency OMT stuff.)

 

[Dr Alo]

Did you get the feeling you were on an equal or near equal playing field as the MDs?

I have the conviction that I am superior to them. I don't subscribe to the inferiority complex that we have to prove ourselves or we aren't as good. We are better!

 

[LovelyRita]

This is exactly why DO's should be allowed to train in ACGME residencies. (They don't need the AOA residency OMT stuff.)

Look. Here's reality. You don't do OMT in DO residency. Maybe you get a lunchtime lecture once a month, meanwhile you chow down your food and run your patient list with your comrades in the back of the room. And, since this is, indeed reality, I see no problem with an MD getting specialty training at a DO hospital, if they so choose to do so. So they skip the lectures. Big deal.

The fact that an MD can't apply/match DO blatantly implies there's something missing from DO specialty training. Don't you think?

 

[beastmaster]

BUT is total BS since I'd estimate less than 10% of practicing DO's actively use OMT.

And your estimate would be wrong. drusso has posted explaining how this rumor got started.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Look. Here's reality. You don't do OMT in DO residency. Maybe you get a lunchtime lecture once a month, meanwhile you chow down your food and run your patient list with your comrades in the back of the room. And, since this is, indeed reality, I see no problem with an MD getting specialty training at a DO hospital, if they so choose to do so. So they skip the lectures. Big deal.

The fact that an MD can't apply/match DO blatantly implies there's something missing from DO specialty training. Don't you think?

1. I'm not sure where you train, but OMT is more than just a lunchtime lecture once a month. Every time you touch a patient, you are using your osteopathic diagnostic skills.

2. It is required for accreditation---you can't just skip it.

 

[LovelyRita]

When you actually start your rotations, let me know how much OMT the residents are doing on their patients.

And beastmaster, I rotated at 5 different DO hospitals around Ohio, Missouri and Michigan this past year. No OMT done.

 

[DrMom]

The fact that an MD can't apply/match DO blatantly implies there's something missing from DO specialty training. Don't you think?

Actually, this is because the AOA won't allow it at this point, nothing more.


And I agree with you on OMM use. I've been asked to do OMM a grand total of 3 times in 1 1/2 years of rotations (outside of a single FM rotation where we had to document 3 OMM tx). I've seen one FM resident do OMM once...other than that I've seen no attending or resident perform OMM.

Now, my school has since added an OMM rotation, so that has changed things a bit for those behind me...but they still aren't going to see much if any OMM when they're on any other rotations.

 

[andyfromseattle]

Question:

How difficult would it be to aim for a residency in Washington State?

This is where I'm from and what I'm wondering is..suppose im an average med school student and I want a residency in the state of washington, is it a longshot to get one or can you pretty much dictate where you go?

Obviously this would vary state by state as some have more programs, I have no idea how many DO residencies are in WA/Seattle Area

 

[JBear1327]

The fact that an MD can't apply/match DO blatantly implies there's something missing from DO specialty training. Don't you think?

Um, if an allopathic doctor can't match an osteopathic residency because they aren't trained in osteopathic medicine, whereas an osteopathic doctor can can apply for an allopathic residency... then wouldn't the logic follow that there is something missing from MD specialty training and not the other way around?

Right? Or am I reading her post wrong.

 

[Taus]

you're reading way too much into this....its mostly an AOA political thing....though you could say its the lack of OMM in MD training....however in my opinion the DO residencies that an MD would seek would involve little OMM (ie Derm/plastics/ortho etc)

 

[BMW19]

In my humble opinion:

1) why shouldn't we have our own residencies? We have had so much discrimination (especially from arrogant MD's who think we should only do FP) maybe it takes some pressure off of a DO student that he is assured a residency slot somewhere where he will be accepted without question.

2) As long as we have different boards there may as well be separate residencies. They use this excuse all the time "Well we can't compare you because you took the COMLEX". Well then why can't I have a residency that will just evaluate the COMLEX.

I am not bitter, but DO's have had to put up with a lot of crap. Us having our own residencies (even if they aren't the best ones) let's us bypass some of the BS .

BMW-

you're reading way too much into this....its mostly an AOA political thing....though you could say its the lack of OMM in MD training....however in my opinion the DO residencies that an MD would seek would involve little OMM (ie Derm/plastics/ortho etc)

 

[LovelyRita]

Um, if an allopathic doctor can't match an osteopathic residency because they aren't trained in osteopathic medicine, whereas an osteopathic doctor can can apply for an allopathic residency... then wouldn't the logic follow that there is something missing from MD specialty training and not the other way around?

Right? Or am I reading her post wrong.

You read it wrong. I probably worded it wrong.

1. DO residents do very little OMT. The rest of the training is equivalent (for lack of a better word) to any MD residency. Therefore,

2. MD's should be allowed to train at DO hospitals.

Item #1 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The majority of DO's do not do OMT. So since we've come to this point, why is it fair for DO's to train at ACGME programs?

And please, do NOT even get me started on the match.

But, in my fatigued state, you know what? I could really give a $hit about any of this right now.

 

[OSUdoc08]

You read it wrong. I probably worded it wrong.

1. DO residents do very little OMT. The rest of the training is equivalent (for lack of a better word) to any MD residency. Therefore,

2. MD's should be allowed to train at DO hospitals.

Item #1 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The majority of DO's do not do OMT. So since we've come to this point, why is it fair for DO's to train at ACGME programs?

And please, do NOT even get me started on the match.

But, in my fatigued state, you know what? I could really give a $hit about any of this right now.

Then DO's would always end up "scrambling" since all of the MD's from the top schools will take all of the spots.

Not a good idea.

 

[LovelyRita]

Then DO's would always end up "scrambling" since all of the MD's from the top schools will take all of the spots.

Not a good idea.

Eh, not necessarily. PD's have the power to decide who should be at their programs. It's about LOR's and clinical rotation performance and board scores. It's a level playing field, right? Besides, as it stands, there are obviously many ACGME programs in which DO's are matched. That, in essence, means that they "beat out" MD applicants.

And lots of people are left scrambling every year, both DO and MD.

And, as I always like to remind, in this twisted up healthcare system, in the end, I don't think it matters.

 

[beastmaster]

MD's should be allowed to train at DO hospitals.

As I understand it, MDs want exclusively the most competitive residencies at DO hospitals. In other words, a backup ENT spot in case their regular match doesn't go exactly as planned. But I have a hard time imagining the MD superstars going through the motions -- preparing/taking the COMLEX, rotating at a DO hospital, and then (if offered a position) signing themselves out of the ACGME match.

The only applicants that would go for that gamble would be the marginal MD applicants, unsure of their competitiveness, but they wouldn't get the spot because their DO competitors would likely have better stats and be the clear favorites. Who's left? Foreign MDs. Not to badmouth anyone, but I'm pretty sure that when DOs say they want MDs to train at their hospitals they don't mean 95% foreign MDs (this is probably complicated by some inherent biases since many were proabably faced with a DO vs foreign MD school option and chose the former).

Am I totally off on this? I basically agree with you, and I think MDs should be able to establish residency programs at DO hospitals so that they can train side by side. But I notice that alot of the anger really comes from MDs wanting to rank competitive DO programs at the bottom of their match lists thinking they are by default overqualified and "totally in" -- but yet are not allowed to do so. Meanwhile they see us as having the best of both worlds, yet from speaking with 4th years and interns, their stratospheric USMLE scores and grades got them nowhere as far as an MD from a top25 with comparable or inferior marks. Their explanation? Well, DO schools are easy so all we do is sit around and study for the USMLE all day. Rubbish. I think we should work on fixing this bias first, and I'm sure eventually cooler heads will prevail and MDs will be reciprocated a welcome to DO residencies.

 

[BMW19]

Again, I don't understand why they should be allowed to enter our residencies. We have enough trouble creating enough QUALITY AOA residency programs from what I have heard. Why would we let the few we have go to allopaths. They have plenty! Besides aren't there dually accredited programs just for that reason? I don't know why any osteopathic med student, resident or physician for that matter would support this

BMW-

As I understand it, MDs want exclusively the most competitive residencies at DO hospitals. In other words, a backup ENT spot in case their regular match doesn't go exactly as planned. But I have a hard time imagining the MD superstars going through the motions -- preparing/taking the COMLEX, rotating at a DO hospital, and then (if offered a position) signing themselves out of the ACGME match.

The only applicants that would go for that gamble would be the marginal MD applicants, unsure of their competitiveness, but they wouldn't get the spot because their DO competitors would likely have better stats and be the clear favorites. Who's left? Foreign MDs. Not to badmouth anyone, but I'm pretty sure that when DOs say they want MDs to train at their hospitals they don't mean 95% foreign MDs (this is probably complicated by some inherent biases since many were proabably faced with a DO vs foreign MD school option and chose the former).

Am I totally off on this? I basically agree with you, and I think MDs should be able to establish residency programs at DO hospitals so that they can train side by side. But I notice that alot of the anger really comes from MDs wanting to rank competitive DO programs at the bottom of their match lists thinking they are by default overqualified and "totally in" -- but yet are not allowed to do so. Meanwhile they see us as having the best of both worlds, yet from speaking with 4th years and interns, their stratospheric USMLE scores and grades got them nowhere as far as an MD from a top25 with comparable or inferior marks. Their explanation? Well, DO schools are easy so all we do is sit around and study for the USMLE all day. Rubbish. I think we should work on fixing this bias first, and I'm sure eventually cooler heads will prevail and MDs will be reciprocated a welcome to DO residencies.

 

[LovelyRita]

Again, I don't understand why they should be allowed to enter our residencies. We have enough trouble creating enough QUALITY AOA residency programs from what I have heard. Why would we let the few we have go to allopaths. They have plenty! Besides aren't there dually accredited programs just for that reason? I don't know why any osteopathic med student, resident or physician for that matter would support this

BMW-

I am pro-opportunity for any DO or MD who wants to practice medicine and get specialty training. I'm simply posing a question that asks 'why is it OK for DO's to do MD residencies but not vice versa?' The argument that DO residencies are based around a different kind of medicine is moot. The powers that be are going to have to think of something else, perhaps making all programs dually-accredited. And then the DO hospitals can take a stance and say, "look, we operate on the osteopathic philosophy, we teach OMT, we do OMT, and if you're an MD who wants to come here, take it or leave it." I just think there is an invisible distinction anymore. I don't reject the DO philosophy or DO schools or Osteopathy, but the separatist attitude will not better our generation of physicians. Read the writing on the wall. Overall, the allopathic community does not discriminate. Of course there are exceptions. But maybe if the DO community loses this separatist attitude, the true barriers can come down.

I have a dream.

 

[vmgopal]

So to do an MD residency you need to take the USMLE right?

and to do a DO residency do you take the COMPLEX?

and I know some take both exams....but say if you are a DO student is the COMPLEX mandatory or can you just take the USMLE if thats the type of residency you need for your specialty...??? 🙂

 

[DrMom]

DO schools require the COMLEX.

 

[CJDocS]

I have the conviction that I am superior to them. I don't subscribe to the inferiority complex that we have to prove ourselves or we aren't as good. We are better!

Great attitude doc!

 

[medhacker]

Then DO's would always end up "scrambling" since all of the MD's from the top schools will take all of the spots.

Not a good idea.

agreed 👍

 

[Tiki]

I have the conviction that I am superior to them. I don't subscribe to the inferiority complex that we have to prove ourselves or we aren't as good. We are better!

When some of my more ignorant allopathic/premed colleagues try to claim that we are better than our osteopathic colleagues, ya'll freak out and get offended (rightly so). Yet you think it's ok to spew the same ignorance?

It's attitudes like this that increase animosity instead of working towards the goal of solidarity.

 

[beastmaster]

ya'll freak out and get offended (rightly so). Yet you think it's ok to spew the same ignorance?

By definition, you cannot accuse a group of individually-minded people of hypocrisy. Surely you're smart enough to recognize this. Take your issues up with the individual persons who feel the way they do. No need to bring that ignorant "ya'll" double-speak in here. We all have opinions about our chosen professions and its our obligation to voice them.

 

[Tiki]

By definition, you cannot accuse a group of individually-minded individuals of hypocrisy. Surely you're smart enough to recognize this. Take your issues up with the individual persons who feel the way they do. No need to bring that ignorant "ya'll" double-speak in here. We all have opinions about our professions and its our obligation to voice them.

When I said ya'll I meant many osteopathic students do get offended when MD students claim they are better than our osteopathic counterparts. I agreed that you all have every right to be annoyed by that ignorant attitude.

When I said you (notice that it's not plural here...) I was addressing the poster specifically.

This is precisely why allopathic students stay away from this forum. 🙄

 

[beastmaster]

However you put it, you were mixing opinions to try and catch someone in a contradiction.

I find that more annoying than someone asserting their worth and superiority.