How common is the gunner mentality in medical school?

[mrh125]

I'm really wondering because it was so obnoxious and prevalent in undergrad that I really didn't hang around a lot of premeds. You had people vandalizing google docs and deleting them, messing up collaborative efforts by giving false information, being all cloak-n-dagger about how they study, bragging about how their pushing patients around a hospital amounted to them being a "shoe in for dermatology", and talking about how they failed exams when they actually got an A. Not to mention all the other bragging. It got really bad in o-chem and what I did to equalize the field was just working with everybody, forming a giant study group, tutoring, and didn't even encourage that mentality.

I'm really hoping gunner mentality isn't super prevalent in medical school. Is it? I'd rather work together with others and make friends than be in a constant competitive mode over "ROAD" specialities or whatever. Also, most people can learn, succeed, and achieve their goals without having to unnecessarily compete, divide, and sabotage each other. Collaboration can really make learning a lot more enjoyable since we all have our own strengths and ways of understanding material and can help each other out. Also, is it more prevalent in certain schools or teaching styles? I'm going to an optimistic guess and say it's less common in PBL and non-pbl than block or non-block, but idk.

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[DermViser]

Depends on the medical school.

 

[kyamh]

I heard that most people play nice during the first two years and the gunners come out of hiding during MS3...obviously I don't know

 

[Jay2910]

Depends on the medical school.

That's a wonderfully generic answer
Do you have particular schools in mind DermViser?
I'm assuming some of them are IVYs.

 

[Osteoth]

If the pre-clinical grading scheme is P/F the "gunners" from undergrad have no impetus to try harder than they need to in order to pass.

If the grading scheme is H/P/F or any permutation, the gunning increases based on the grading levels. As a result, at a school like Virginia Commonwealth, which has Honors/High Pass/Pass/Marginal Pass/Fail, yo would expect a higher level of competition as many students "gun" for that Honors or High Pass.

 

[Psai]

That's a wonderfully generic answer
Do you have particular schools in mind DermViser?
I'm assuming some of them are IVYs.

lol look at this guy

 

[ChEMD]

That's a wonderfully generic answer
Do you have particular schools in mind DermViser?
I'm assuming some of them are IVYs.

No one can accurately comment on any school other than the one that they attended. As far as I've seen, there have been no acts of sabotage or anything of the sort at my school.

The idea that collaboration and competition are mutually exclusive things is silly. Plenty of people are competitive and want to be the best, but that doesn't mean that they don't want to work with others. Many people will be more competitive with themselves (or with the grade distribution), trying to push themselves to do better, rather than outwardly or directly competing with anyone else. That being said, I'm sure there's someone that goes around asking how others did on tests to see hoe they stack up, but I have yet to meet that person.

 

[mrh125]

Depends on the medical school.

Like the other guy said, could you elaborate on some trends about schools? factors that influence whether or not gunning comes into play.

If the pre-clinical grading scheme is P/F the "gunners" from undergrad have no impetus to try harder than they need to in order to pass.

If the grading scheme is H/P/F or any permutation, the gunning increases based on the grading levels. As a result, at a school like Virginia Commonwealth, which has Honors/High Pass/Pass/Marginal Pass/Fail, yo would expect a higher level of competition as many students "gun" for that Honors or High Pass.

I have a question about the latter grading schemes with H/P/F. Even though they are grading schemes that imply you're doing better than others, from what I've read they don't really affect residency placement? Does that reduce competition? How much do honors mean is the question I'm wondering?

 

[DermViser]

That's a wonderfully generic answer
Do you have particular schools in mind DermViser?
I'm assuming some of them are IVYs.

It's a generic answer bc it's true. Two things that I think affect this to a great degree:

1) The particular grading system at that medical school both in the first 2 years and during MS-3 which then directly affects class rank
2) The academic caliber of the matriculating student based on cumulative GPA (esp. science GPA) and MCAT score

There are gunners at state medical schools as well.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

2) The academic caliber of the matriculating student based on cumulative GPA (esp. science GPA) and MCAT score

Higher = more gunner?

 

[DermViser]

I have a question about the latter grading schemes with H/P/F. Even though they are grading schemes that imply you're doing better than others, from what I've read they don't really affect residency placement?

Uh, no. Just...no.

That being said, an "Honors" on the MS-3 clerkship coming from Hopkins will mean much more than an "Honors" on the MS-3 clerkship coming from a public state medical school.

 

[Jay2910]

No one can accurately comment on any school other than the one that they attended. As far as I've seen, there have been no acts of sabotage or anything of the sort at my school.

The idea that collaboration and competition are mutually exclusive things is silly. Plenty of people are competitive and want to be the best, but that doesn't mean that they don't want to work with others. Many people will be more competitive with themselves (or with the grade distribution), trying to push themselves to do better, rather than outwardly or directly competing with anyone else. That being said, I'm sure there's someone that goes around asking how others did on tests to see hoe they stack up, but I have yet to meet that person.

You're right . .. I can't comment . . .but I don't want to end up in a toxic environment . . .so I try my best to look out for the signs of such a bad environment and avoid it as much as possible.

I guess the question is . . . .are there particular signs/clues( Besides the grading system) that I should look out for in a medical school, that should like warn me of a potentially bad learning environment?

How can you gauge if a learning environment is right for you?

 

[DermViser]

I heard that most people play nice during the first two years and the gunners come out of hiding during MS3...obviously I don't know

Probably bc MS-1/MS-2 were "true" P/F and then MS-3 was H/HP/P/MP/F.

 

[DermViser]

No one can accurately comment on any school other than the one that they attended. As far as I've seen, there have been no acts of sabotage or anything of the sort at my school.

The idea that collaboration and competition are mutually exclusive things is silly. Plenty of people are competitive and want to be the best, but that doesn't mean that they don't want to work with others. Many people will be more competitive with themselves (or with the grade distribution), trying to push themselves to do better, rather than outwardly or directly competing with anyone else. That being said, I'm sure there's someone that goes around asking how others did on tests to see hoe they stack up, but I have yet to meet that person.

I don't think he's necessarily talking about active sabotage (that's hard to get away with without the risk of getting caught), vs. not helping someone on a clerkship esp. when they're flailing, not doing as much behind the scenes, but being a hard worker when residents/attendings are watching, not sharing old tests/old notes/old study guides, only asking for help when they need it but not giving any in return, etc. ---> A more subtle gunner mentality.

I don't know gunners that ask other people's grades bc it's irrelevant. They're more concerned with getting an "H" period.

 

[ChEMD]

You're right . .. I can't comment . . .but I don't want to end up in a toxic environment . . .so I try my best to look out for the signs of such a bad environment and avoid it as much as possible.

I guess the question is . . . .are there particular signs/clues( Besides the grading system) that I should look out for in a medical school, that should like warn me of a potentially bad learning environment?

How can you gauge if a learning environment is right for you?

Honestly, I don't really know. The only thing that I would be sure to avoid is a school that grades based on a curve (where only a certain percentage can get A's or Honors or whatever). Beyond that, if you can get into a school that has "true" p/f for preclinical years, that would probably be less stressful, although maybe that leads to excess competition in the clinical years? I don't really know. There is no difference between a school that gives out grades and a school that is p/f but still ranks you based on scores, so I wouldn't let that be a factor in your decision.

The bottom line is, I don't think there will be too many acts of sabotage at any school that you choose to attend. There will almost certainly be people that prefer to work in groups, and others that prefer to work alone. I think most people will be able to adapt to whatever situation they end up in and find a group of people with similar goals and work habits that they fit in with. But maybe I'm too optimistic.

 

[DermViser]

You're right . .. I can't comment . . .but I don't want to end up in a toxic environment . . .so I try my best to look out for the signs of such a bad environment and avoid it as much as possible.

I guess the question is . . . .are there particular signs/clues( Besides the grading system) that I should look out for in a medical school, that should like warn me of a potentially bad learning environment?

How can you gauge if a learning environment is right for you?

Ask and evaluate the student body. Don't just talk with the students the med school trots out at interviews (the ones who volunteered and may be ***kissers for their own motives) and don't just talk with people who are the very top of their class, who will likely be happy no matter what. Ask people who are in the middle so you get the good and the bad. Also read into body language and facial expressions.

 

[kavorca]

It mostly depends if your school grades on a strict curve. If everyone can honor a class if they score above a certain score, then being a gunner is useless. If only 10% or a set number can then that is usually what will bring out the gunners.

 

[STLMako91]

The most annoying gunners are the ones who tell you that they either didn't study at all or studied for "5 minutes" the night before the test. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and is insulting; either that gunner has amazing photographic memory and doesn't need to look over his notes or I'm being playing as a fool.

Oh well, jokes on them.

 

[Psai]

The most annoying gunners are the ones who tell you that they either didn't study at all or studied for "5 minutes" the night before the test. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and is insulting; either that gunner has amazing photographic memory and doesn't need to look over his notes or I'm being playing as a fool.

Oh well, jokes on them.

yeah I knew a guy like this. He would brag about how he got a 99 and only studied the night before when I knew for a fact that he sat in his room all day, staring at lecture slides.

 

[DermViser]

yeah I knew a guy like this. He would brag about how he got a 99 and only studied the night before when I knew for a fact that he sat in his room all day, staring at lecture slides.

You mean like this?

 

[darkjedi]

I'm assuming some of them are IVYs.

What would being an ivy have to do with gunnerism? Ugrad gunners exist at almost every school.

Overall I think the admissions process does a decent job of weeding out the worst of the bunch, the ones who don't play well with others. The ones who are in med school are still super competitive, but almost exclusively among themselves. "Malignant" gunners I don't think make it very far. Plus, once you're in med school, it becomes much less of a competition and you develop more of a comraderie between your classmates, especially since most classes are only a few hundred kids.

 

[mrh125]

The most annoying gunners are the ones who tell you that they either didn't study at all or studied for "5 minutes" the night before the test. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and is insulting; either that gunner has amazing photographic memory and doesn't need to look over his notes or I'm being playing as a fool.

Oh well, jokes on them.

I agree. Also, realize that some people just say that to **** with you and make themselves feel better even though they were studying as much as everyone else.

 

[DermViser]

What would being an ivy have to do with gunnerism? Ugrad gunners exist at almost every school.

Overall I think the admissions process does a decent job of weeding out the worst of the bunch, the ones who don't play well with others. The ones who are in med school are still super competitive, but almost exclusively among themselves. "Malignant" gunners I don't think make it very far. Plus, once you're in med school, it becomes much less of a competition and you develop more of a comraderie between your classmates, especially since most classes are only a few hundred kids.

He's referring to Ivy League medical schools, not undergrads. Also, there is competition, you just can't really do anything about it.

 

[DermViser]

 

[DermViser]

 

[DermViser]

 

[DermViser]

 

[masaraksh]

Wow DermViser. I was gonna post something too, but will keep it professional.

 

[DermViser]

Wow DermViser. I was gonna post something too, but will keep it professional.

They're just cartoons from Google Images.

 

[DermViser]

Higher = more gunner?

Depends how exactly you define gunner. The likelihood increases with a high achieving group.

 

[darkjedi]

He's referring to Ivy League medical schools, not undergrads. Also, there is competition, you just can't really do anything about it.

I know, I just don't see why ivies in particular would have more of a gunner culture. Just because someone is a gunner doesn't mean they are high achieving, similarly just because someone is high achieving doesn't mean they are a gunner. One of the reasons that adcoms particularly like well-rounded individuals is to try and avoid those who only just study and focus on grades.

 

[masaraksh]

They're just cartoons from Google Images.

Oh.

I thought you made them. I wanted to make some offensive gunner ones too!

 

[masaraksh]

I know, I just don't see why ivies in particular would have more of a gunner culture. Just because someone is a gunner doesn't mean they are high achieving, similarly just because someone is high achieving doesn't mean they are a gunner. One of the reasons that adcoms particularly like well-rounded individuals is to try and avoid those who only just study and focus on grades.

Ughhh, no. I've heard that oboes are filled with mad gunners.

I've heard rumors that HMS can be toxic and that a not insignificant portion of students take add stimulant meds to study more/harder. But who knows, rumors are rumors.

 

[DermViser]

I know, I just don't see why ivies in particular would have more of a gunner culture. Just because someone is a gunner doesn't mean they are high achieving, similarly just because someone is high achieving doesn't mean they are a gunner. One of the reasons that adcoms particularly like well-rounded individuals is to try and avoid those who only just study and focus on grades.

Well the culture of Brown (an Ivy), for example, will be very different from WashU, for example. Also med school admissions is a complete farce, and can be completely gamed to look "well-rounded".

 

[darkjedi]

But who knows, rumors are rumors.

Rumors are indeed rumors

Well the culture of Brown (an Ivy), for example, will be very different from WashU, for example. Also med school admissions is a complete farce, and can be completely gamed to look "well-rounded".

Brown is special in that most of their students are PLME's in the combined BA/MD program and would be the opposite of well rounded. When you're on the other side of admissions, you will be surprised by how impressive some applications are, as well as how transparent others are.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

I guess you could find gunners in every school; I just stay away. I had been told my school is a real gunner school, but I don't see it. In fact, I really enjoyed all the study groups we formed. I cared about doing well, but not to a point that I'd sabotage someone else's work. My doing well meant I understood the material, not that I screwed someone else.

 

[Teleologist]

Brah, it's not about gunners in med school, it's about gunners "in" med school who are actually undergrads in disguise.

I've been secretly attending med school lectures dressed up as a med school student - khakis, shirt, coat and all.

I've even been telling classmates about my imaginary MCAT score - 99th percentile - a 42.

Everyone respects me after I drop that.

 

[DermViser]

Rumors are indeed rumors

Brown is special in that most of their students are PLME's in the combined BA/MD program and would be the opposite of well rounded. When you're on the other side of admissions, you will be surprised by how impressive some applications are, as well as how transparent others are.

I should have been more clear, I was more referring to collegiality. Brown is known as the "nice" Ivy vs. Johns Hopkins.

 

[DermViser]

I guess you could find gunners in every school; I just stay away. I had been told my school is a real gunner school, but I don't see it. In fact, I really enjoyed all the study groups we formed. I cared about doing well, but not to a point that I'd sabotage someone else's work. My doing well meant I understood the material, not that I screwed someone else.

Maybe bc you attend a "true" P/F school in the first 2 years?

 

[DermViser]

Ughhh, no. I've heard that oboes are filled with mad gunners.

I've heard rumors that HMS can be toxic and that a not insignificant portion of students take add stimulant meds to study more/harder. But who knows, rumors are rumors.

Why would HMS be toxic?

 

[Teleologist]

Why would HMS be toxic?

What's HMS?

 

[DermViser]

What's HMS?

Harvard Medical School.

 

[Teleologist]

Harvard Medical School.

Brah, you don't need to inform me about the place I attend.

 

[DermViser]

Brah, you don't need to inform me about the place I attend.

Brah, I'm not the one who said Harvard was toxic. You asked what HMS was.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

Maybe bc you attend a "true" P/F school in the first 2 years?

No, I don't attend Brown. I think that's P/F in UG, isn't it? I know my school has a very bad rap as "GUNNER", and I'm sure they were there, but that's not me. In fact, I'd play a game of frisbee from time to time with the med school students and they were all pretty cool too.

 

[DermViser]

No, I don't attend Brown. I think that's P/F in UG, isn't it? I know my school has a very bad rap as "GUNNER", and I'm sure they were there, but that's not me. In fact, I'd play a game of frisbee from time to time with the med school students and they were all pretty cool too.

I was referring to medical school actually.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

You had people vandalizing google docs and deleting them ………… sabotage!!! Let's hope you'd get kicked out good for that.
messing up collaborative efforts by giving false information ……….. insecure!!! What happened to collaborated efforts?
being all cloak-n-dagger about how they study ………… who cares?????
bragging about their pushing patients amounted to them being a "shoe in for dermatology" ….. good thing they don't decide
talking about how they failed exams when they actually got an A ………. good for them (they fail in their personality scores!)
Not to mention all the other bragging …….. (gotta do sumting when you feel bad about yourself)

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

I was referring to medical school actually.

I thought you must have. Of course I was talking about my UG.

 

[Goro]

I have to brag here... my kids lose the gunner mentality as soon as they set foot on campus.

I'm really wondering because it was so obnoxious and prevalent in undergrad that I really didn't hang around a lot of premeds. You had people vandalizing google docs and deleting them, messing up collaborative efforts by giving false information, being all cloak-n-dagger about how they study, bragging about how their pushing patients around a hospital amounted to them being a "shoe in for dermatology", and talking about how they failed exams when they actually got an A. Not to mention all the other bragging. It got really bad in o-chem and what I did to equalize the field was just working with everybody, forming a giant study group, tutoring, and didn't even encourage that mentality.

I'm really hoping gunner mentality isn't super prevalent in medical school. Is it? I'd rather work together with others and make friends than be in a constant competitive mode over "ROAD" specialities or whatever. Also, most people can learn, succeed, and achieve their goals without having to unnecessarily compete, divide, and sabotage each other. Collaboration can really make learning a lot more enjoyable since we all have our own strengths and ways of understanding material and can help each other out. Also, is it more prevalent in certain schools or teaching styles? I'm going to an optimistic guess and say it's less common in PBL and non-pbl than block or non-block, but idk.

 

[Teleologist]

I have to brag here... my kids lose the gunner mentality as soon as they set foot on campus.

Hard to see DO matriculants with any sort of gunner mentality.