How did paying for vet school pan out/advice for a career-changer vet wannabe [:

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Hi Rob!

CSU huh... that's one of the places I would apply to if I went this vet route. I have been to Fort Collins as one of my (Ex) friends moved out their after college, and I loved CO and Fort Collins! It's so spacious compared to out here, and having the rockies as a backdrop is fun. Plus, we visited Brekkenridge, very beautiful!

-Hannah

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Rob-i like this article about the upenn graduate, thanks
 
It says 'AAVMC Comparative Data Report'. It also says 'Average' - which let's us know that some will be higher and an equal number should be lower.

Actually, thats not what an average(mean) is. Your definition is for a median. And it gets dragged in both directions by the outliers. The average debt for married most likely a lot lower than for unmarried students as they have an income for their household to help cover living expenses and some of their tuition costs.

I'm also assuming certain things that I'd imagine anyone who is trying to minimize their debt would assume as well. At the schools I've looked at, Vet Students follow the same schedule as the rest of the University for the most part. College isn't exactly a full-time gig. A Fall/Spring semester - at most schools totals 32 weeks. That leaves 20 weeks to be filled with full-time employment.

CSU's schedule, from what I understand, expects a Fall/Spring/Summer in your 4th year - so, a student could expect to work 20 weeks a year the first three years and maybe the winter break the 4th year. Still - just say 60 weeks. That's easily 15k, and considering that most students are college graduates, it's not unfathonable to think they could make more than minimum wage for those hours.
Except its not really the easiest thing in the world to find a full time job for the 3-4 weeks you have off for winter break. So for the 4 years its really more like 30 weeks of work you can pull off. Assuming you dont actually want to take any sort of a break during your breaks.

Anyway, bottom line....according to the AVMA (http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...ergency/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/525880)

The association's most recent survey shows last year's mean educational indebtedness totaled $106,969

Thats a good article. Unfortunately its from early 2008 and reflects the debt of the students who graduated in 2007. The average has actually gone up roughly $10,000 a year the last two years with the average debt for the class of 2009 being ~$130,000.
 
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Also some schools don't have a summer break during the last two years...
 
I will use CSU as an example as others have, and I have been accepted there.

IS expenses for 9 mo est $32,000 by CSU
[http://sfs.colostate.edu/costs/index.aspx]

$32,000 x 4 years = $128,000

If you finds a job and can work all 20 extra weeks of the year 40 hrs a week at $15.00 and hour (20x40x15) = $12,000

$12,000 x 4 years (year 4 not even possible) = $48,000

$128,000-$48,000 = $80,000 again this is money for only 9 months of school and living expenses

Students with families, those who miss a week or two of work, those who must pay to live the other 3 months of the year and/or those who can't make $15 an hour could all easily reach an $100k debt level as an IS student at CSU.

OOS tuition and estimated expenses at CSU is $240 for 4 years.

It is unfair to say that reaching $100k debt is unreasonable. It is in fact reasonable.
 
The information on Wikipedia isn't *created* at Wikipedia. It's just displayed.....like this chart...


I'm also assuming certain things that I'd imagine anyone who is trying to minimize their debt would assume as well. At the schools I've looked at, Vet Students follow the same schedule as the rest of the University for the most part. College isn't exactly a full-time gig. A Fall/Spring semester - at most schools totals 32 weeks. That leaves 20 weeks to be filled with full-time employment.

CSU's schedule, from what I understand, expects a Fall/Spring/Summer in your 4th year - so, a student could expect to work 20 weeks a year the first three years and maybe the winter break the 4th year. Still - just say 60 weeks. That's easily 15k, and considering that most students are college graduates, it's not unfathonable to think they could make more than minimum wage for those hours.


File:US_Vet_school_costs_99-07.GIF

Sadly, during breaks (usually May-August for most students), you're expected to get clinical veterinary experience, do mentorships/externships, often for no pay/very little pay/a free room/or actually pay money to travel to get experience. I got a few externship grants of several hundred dollars to work in a couple different areas of the veterinary field over summer break, but not nearly enough to even break even over the summer. Some students have clinics in their hometown they can work at, but I've never heard of a vet student managing to make 15,000 simply over their two summer breaks doing veterinary work. Even if you do have a paid job at a clinic, its often just at tech pay, since you're not a qualified veterinarian yet.
 
Also, exactly what david said...I didn't have time to research the other stuff.


Not trying to start a fight. I know its possible to have under 100K, there are students in my class getting their full ride paid for by the state as long as they work in a rural area when they graduate. They (and people who have parents paying their whole way) also skew that average debt data

Some of your ideas are just a bit unrealistic. But if you have a job that pays that much that you can work at over breaks in vet school, no questions asked, and it gives you great veterinary experience, please let me know about it.
Right now I have no clue what to do over the summer because I can't afford to travel to good externships anyplace because I'll be out of loan money for the year, yet I need more clinical experience before third year surgery.
 
but I've never heard of a vet student managing to make 15,000 simply over their two summer breaks doing veterinary work.

LOL, I'm pretty sure I earned $15,000 in the year that I worked as an assistant at a vet clinic.

Now, my friend who interned at Goldman-Sachs over the summer...she earned $15k...I wonder if they need any vet students? ;)
 
Looking passed rob's initial comments about the 100k debt and working during breaks.... i think that article he posted was really great. (whether it was from 2007 or not) It talks about how the debt is increasing each year so it just brings more truth to what it is saying. It also talks about a real life experience for how him and his wife are doing with the debt. I also appreciated how it talked about the diff types of salary doctors get (with vets being near the bottom end). It really is something we should all be thinking about, and like the article said, vets need to start pushing for increased salaries that are matching other doctors if we want to come out of the debt we are in. The article is a little long, but I think its worth reading.
also for people going to interviews soon- i heard one question and it was about what vets can do together to help raise their salary.

im not trying to take sides! im not sure why there is such an outburst of opinions (maybe im reading the comments from a diff angle?) but anywho... nice article.
 
There's a more recent survey. Here's a summary: http://www.avma.org/press/releases/090901_starting_salaries_survey.asp

And here's a relevant excerpt:

"According to the survey results, 88.6 percent of students had debt at the time of their graduation from veterinary school, and all but 9.6 percent of that debt was incurred while the students were in veterinary school. Average debt increased 8.5 percent between 2008 and 2009, with student debt averaging $129,976 in 2009, compared with $119,803 in 2008. Nearly a third of the students had an average debt above $150,000."

Let's read that again: NEARLY A THIRD of veterinary students graduate with debt ABOVE $150,000.

And "When it comes to salaries for these new hires, the average starting salary among all employer types combined increased 0.7 percent, from $48,328 in 2008 to $48,684 in 2009. Excluding those who continued their education through advanced study, the average starting salary increased 5.2 percent, from $61,633 in 2008 to $64,826 in 2009."

So, basic math: debt is increasing at a rate faster than salaries.

People are graduating from veterinary schools where their tuition went up 12.5% PER YEAR during the four years they were there. Talk about blowing all your projected budgeting prior to vet school out the window.

For me, I had to take out $50K first year, $55K second year, and now $60K third year. Just to make ends meet.

Student debt is a tremendous problem. Ignoring it will not make it go away. There are many, many facets to the situation--and a big one is ever-decreasing government funding for veterinary schools--but it is a REAL problem and, IMHO, a very viable reason for someone to turn away from veterinary school and towards another profession.

And as far as working goes--not only did I work every single summer/spring break/winter break (except for our paltry two-week long winter break this year)--I have also worked 8 hours every Saturday at the teaching hospital during the school year itself. Just FYI when you're talking about working to make $$ and reducing the amount borrowed.
 
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I just got my final financial aid distribution ever, and the checked out the final tally today:

$158,071

... as an in-stater no less. Blerg.
 
I don't have any easy answers, and there are a lot of facets as to why income is low, including tendencies for services to be given away (including pro-bono work that isn't routed through contributions to a non profit), competition from non-profit's in some regions, expectation of 'work for love', lack of knowledge about real costs in medicine (including human), and improvements in equipment, pharms, and treatments that have outpaced increases. We may value our pets more, but we value animals in general less (this is my personal belief and is driven by factory farming, continued expansion of suburban areas, and increasing wildlife/human conflict.)

I am incredibly grateful that my IS has low tuition for an excellent education; that is important to me. However, several of our students do work every weekend (at clinics outside of the school) and several of us are involved in research labs that provide stipends. I chose to purchase a house rather than rent because I could get a mortgage on a handyman special for less than I could rent; but that is trusting my skills as a handyman and having faith that the market will recover enough to make a profit selling in 4 years. That isn't an option open to a lot of people right now with stricter loan practices, and a lot of younger students would have to invest in tools/equipment...and there is a lot of 'cost' initially in buying paint, flooring, etc.

I almost wish vet schools required students to create a mock budget for their first year out and their 5th year out before accepting applicants. I realize lots of things will change and such, but I do think it is important to take a good look at the numbers and understand just what that means, especially for students who don't yet have experience supporting themselves (to me, that means living without parental and loan support.)
 
I'm wondering why no one ever brings up loan forgiveness programs when we talk about what our debt is going to be like following vet school?

Maybe it's not something that pre-vets know about, maybe there is little interest, or maybe i am personally missing some crucial piece of info but I know the NIH has loan forgiveness programs for people holding doctorates (including DVM/VMD) who perform research. On the website it says they will forgive up to $35k/year of research being performed.

Since I'm interested in being involved in research anyway this seems like a great opportunity and one that I would definitely be willing to look into.

http://www.lrp.nih.gov/eligibility/eligibility_of_individuals.aspx
 
I'm wondering why no one ever brings up loan forgiveness programs when we talk about what our debt is going to be like following vet school?

Maybe it's not something that pre-vets know about, maybe there is little interest, or maybe i am personally missing some crucial piece of info but I know the NIH has loan forgiveness programs for people holding doctorates (including DVM/VMD) who perform research. On the website it says they will forgive up to $35k/year of research being performed.

Since I'm interested in being involved in research anyway this seems like a great opportunity and one that I would definitely be willing to look into.

http://www.lrp.nih.gov/eligibility/eligibility_of_individuals.aspx

For me, there aren't many positions "conducting qualified research funded by a domestic nonprofit organization or U.S. federal, state, or local government entity" that really fit for me. I also don't currently know of anyone with a DVM getting this, though I do know some humand drs using it.
 
Yeah I hear you. Actually, job market stinks for most people.. period. Though I tend to think veterinarians are in rather "recession proof" business because think about it, would people rather go to a movie or take care of their furry little companion?
"Recession proof" is a strong assertion.
I think you'd be surprised how readily the average animal owner will forego flea/worm prevention, checkups, cautionary bloodwork / xrays, vaccines and whatnot, in poor financial circumstances..

human healthcare is not recession proof in the US from what I gather.
what makes you think animal care would be better?




But just one comment more on topic with this dated thread:
I don't know how you out-of-staters or internationals can handle the debt.
If I did not have a nearby subsidized vet school, i would neither be able nor willing to attend any international or american school without first becoming a resident...

I am expecting to get by with around 75-85k debt including living expenses, and thats with tuition totaling only 10700 per year..
I hope you people know what you're getting in to.. and either have families willing to help, or plan to specialize and make 120k+
 
or plan to specialize and make 120k+


My plan :oops:. A 2010 instate grad, my debt is around 140,000....slogging through three years of residency at 25k (post-tax) and in forbearance on loans...but will hopefully be able to make payments once I get a true job as a DACVP.

My parents are well off but did not pay for school, nor would I ever expect them to. Boyfriend is doing his masters making next to nothing. I was lucky in college with a fund set up by my grandmother, but other than that, no help along the way. And by the way, you cannot control IS vs OS tuition. If you only get accepted to OS, too bad. With minimum loan payments being on the order of 1000/month...yikes.
 
"Recession proof" is a strong assertion.
I think you'd be surprised how readily the average animal owner will forego flea/worm prevention, checkups, cautionary bloodwork / xrays, vaccines and whatnot, in poor financial circumstances..
This is exactly what my local clinic found. Preventatives get dropped by clients because they'd rather risk it than pay for vaccines and deworming because the money isn't there. They're also more likely to go for cheaper dog food, not the vet foods. I can say though, that it was the techs that lost their jobs, not the vets, but clinics definitely saw a drop in revenue.

If NS did not have access to a subsided vet school, I would not be going down this road. Vets in NS don't make enough money to cover $30,000+ a year in tuition. I'd probably be aiming more toward med school if that were the case.
 
No one asked my opinion, but here it is: I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the economy unless you are graduating in the next year or so....

For those of us 3 or 4 years out, and especially those considering applying to school now, the current conditions are really not all that relevant (note: that doesn't mean I think you should ignore the enormous debt load you will be carrying, just don't project current conditions).

The 2 big factors, the economy and the vet industry will change, no doubt.


My thoughts on those 2:
The economy is slowly digesting the 2008 debt crisis (and to some extent still the 2000 tech bust). Every year that passes makes that event less relevant to some extent. Even with these overhangs the economy is still crawling forward and the real estate market slowly recovers. So I would ignore the gloom and doom when planning for the future. Five plus years out from a crisis is really a whole new ball game.

2ndly, private practice vet med is undergoing some big changes. There was a huge expansion as corporations got into the veterinary biz recently and that appears to have followed a typical over-expansion pattern. You now see some of the bigger players rolling up the industry. Initially it was just buying the small guys, but now you see more mergers of size. Ultimately that will leads to a period of either no growth or contraction for a couple of years. I figure by the time we are looking for real jobs that process should have played out, and things are likely to be much improved.

Vet med is not recession proof by any means of the imagination, but it is a growing profession, just a little over-supplied right now. Like everything else, that is cyclical and will change.

I am sure others will disagree but that is my 2cents (which before I switched careers would have actually been worth something!)
 
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