• SDN Site Updates

    Hey everyone! The site will be down for approximately 2 hours on Thursday, August 5th for site updates.

daelroy

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2004
407
1
Status (Visible)
Yes, I'm a gunner. I want to finish at the top of my class. No, I wouldn't hide library books or rip out pages to make certain that my classmates do poorly. If my classmates asked me for help, I would help them. I do believe in honor in regards to competition.

But I won't hide my aspiration. I don't believe in being fake. If I want to be the best, I don't see why I can't be honest with all of you. I have the time, energy and endurance to study as much as I can. I'm seeking advice from fellow gunners or those who know how to be a gunners. How do you finish at the top of your class provided you will do whatever it takes (within legal and ethical means) to succeed.

To those of you who want to flame me, go ahead. I suppose I deserve it. If I ask a question like this, I have to be wiling to take the criticism as well. But if any of you can sincerely answer my thread, I would appreciate it.

Thank You
 

Kosmo

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
May 16, 2001
180
0
Ann Arbor, Mi
Status (Visible)
Never ask the prof: 'do I need to know this?'
You already know the answer.
Cripes, study a lot and don't be ashamed of it. It's pretty simple.
 

DO_Surgeon

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Oct 26, 2003
337
0
Status (Visible)
Although I didnt finish at the top of my class, I think the answer to your question is pretty easy. Study your a$$ off and do well in all your classes. I dont think there is a special formula, it just depends on how hard you work.
 
About the Ads

BiggMann79

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 16, 2003
150
0
44
Status (Visible)
It all depends on how well you want to do. I see a couple of types of gunners.

1. The person that gets a 4.0, and is satisfied with that. They will probably be AOA and get a real good Step 1 score and that is all the want.

2. The over the top "uber-gunner" who is driven not to just get an A in the class but to have the highest (or one of the highest) grades on every test, get 99th percentile on every course's NBME shelf-exam, and then get a 260+ on the USMLE Step 1.

It depends on which of these people you want to be, because the latter will take a lot more time and work than the former. Of course you might go to a school that has grading systems that make determining who is actually "#1" difficult.

If you are a student who is above average intelligence (as compared to other medical students) then it's really not that hard to make A's in a class. Oh it's not easy either, but certainly not as hard as some people would let on. Being the uber-gunner though is difficult.

Basically you have to determine for yourself what study methods work for you and keep it up for 4 years.

The importance you put on this goal of being #1 might change once you are in medical school though.
 

KyGrlDr2B

Full Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Oct 15, 2001
2,045
0
41
KY
Status (Visible)
Here is what the gunners at my school do: Study 24/7. Even on christmas break, spring break, etc you must study everyday. Also, everytime you miss a question on the test, go to the professor and argue that your answer was correct in the hopes that the question will get thrown out and you will get a 100.

When I think of more, I'll let you know.
 

doc05

2K Member
15+ Year Member
May 24, 2003
3,515
1,487
U.S.A.
Status (Visible)
what's the point of being #1 in your class? Just about every residency is attainable for strong students, though they may not be #1 (or even top 10% of their class).

The exception, perhaps, is derm, but I cannot understand what is so wonderful about that field.
 

Buster Douglas

Unregistered User
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
May 22, 2003
315
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student
Originally posted by doc05
The exception, perhaps, is derm, but I cannot understand what is so wonderful about that field.
Seriously... What's the deal? The most brilliant minds of medicine busted their butts studying, doing summer research and community service, and arse kissing since elementary school for... skin. :confused:
 

Harrie

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Aug 31, 2003
247
2
Status (Visible)
They didn't bust their butts for skin, they work for big money, little work, a nice house, and plenty of vacation time.
 

carrigallen

16th centry dutch painter
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 27, 2003
1,542
7
Status (Visible)
the gunners at our school are trying to change the ranking system, to make it easier for them to be in the top of the class.
 

BiggMann79

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 16, 2003
150
0
44
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by Buster Douglas
Seriously... What's the deal? The most brilliant minds of medicine busted their butts studying, doing summer research and community service, and arse kissing since elementary school for... skin. :confused:

These gunners have been toiling BLINDLY since elementary school because they THINK they want to be doctors, only to get to medical school and discover that they don't want to be doctors. So they do dermatology. Kind of ironic I think.

You have got to love the life of a gunner:

1. Gotta make a 4.0, score a 1500+ on the SAT, participate in volunteer activities so you can feel good about yourself and because they will look good on a college application and you can get into the Ivy League College of your choice. At this point they have never held a real job.

2. Once you are in college you gotta get a 4.0, score a 36+ on the MCAT, participate in even more volunteer activities so you can feel good about yourself, do research, and hold some sort of "leadership" position, because they will look good on a medical school application, and only Harvard or Hopkins will do. At this point they still have never held a real job.

3. Once in medical school they have to continue to get the 4.0, score a 260+ on the USMLE Step 1, participate in even more volunteer activities that they don't care about except they make them feel a little better about their rich white kid life so they make up stuff to do in order to patronize the poor "oddities" who benefit from their benevolance. Of course they also have to do the obligatory research and hold some student office and get politically involved so they can push their agenda onto the "stupid masses" who "can't think for themselves and need a little help from us, the liberal elite medical students who care so much for you." Since they also discover that they don't really like dealing with sick people at this point and really would have become investment bankers if they had it all to do over again (after all their buddies from Harvard are rolling in the dough), they decide to go into dermatology. Oh yes, at this point they have still yet to hold a real job.

Well you see how it goes. It's really pretty pathetic.
 

mellantro

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 5, 2002
243
0
Status (Visible)
I typed in "gunner" and "medical school" in Google and actually came across this URL:


GunnerMD


Carrigallen, can you elaborate more on the gunners at your school (and why/how are they changging the ranking system)? I know you go to Jefferson, and I'm interested in learning more about that school. I've heard some rumors as to an extremely competitive atmosphere?

Also, do the Penn State/Jefferson kids stick out really easily because of gunnerish tendencies?
 

bansheeDO

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 14, 2004
61
0
Status (Visible)
I posted something similar on the DO page. You can only seek out the best advice possible and do the very best you can. Everything else is in fate's hands.

In my humble opinion, I think people who finish near the top are gifted. I don't know of any average students who finished in the top 5% of his or her class.
 
About the Ads

BiggMann79

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 16, 2003
150
0
44
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by mellantro
I typed in "gunner" and "medical school" in Google and actually came across this URL:


GunnerMD


Carrigallen, can you elaborate more on the gunners at your school (and why/how are they changging the ranking system)? I know you go to Jefferson, and I'm interested in learning more about that school. I've heard some rumors as to an extremely competitive atmosphere?

Also, do the Penn State/Jefferson kids stick out really easily because of gunnerish tendencies?

That is one funny website. The pathetic thing is that they claim being a gunner is a good thing because you will have the knowledge to help your patients (which I agree with), but then they just turn it into an ego thing. This is not a direct quote but it was something like "you will be the doctor everyone wants to go to because you will know it all." They talk about the patient yet they have a stupid website that is basically a shrine to themselves and their thoughts on medical school. They even think they can sell some stupid t-shirts that quotes a buddy of theirs. Then are we supposed to be impressed with the fact that they rode a roller coaster at Cedar Point? "Oh look at me, I'm hardcore, I can ride a roller coaster and flash hand signs." That website doesn't do much to help the image of gunners.
 

uclacrewdude

the uclacrewdude abides
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2003
9,796
7
40
maddox.xmission.net
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
Originally posted by mellantro
I typed in "gunner" and "medical school" in Google and actually came across this URL:


GunnerMD


Carrigallen, can you elaborate more on the gunners at your school (and why/how are they changging the ranking system)? I know you go to Jefferson, and I'm interested in learning more about that school. I've heard some rumors as to an extremely competitive atmosphere?

Also, do the Penn State/Jefferson kids stick out really easily because of gunnerish tendencies?

by definition, a gunner cannot care most about his pts, b/c a gunner is too busy caring about his grades rather than actually learning the material and successfully learning how to interact with people. if you strive to get the best grades, unless youre just naturally smart, youre going to be missing out on all the pt contact activities all the rest of us are doing.

besides, in the pic that guy on the left looks like frankie muniz.
 

fullefect1

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 23, 2003
790
0
36
Mass
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by BiggMann79
they decide to go into dermatology. Oh yes, at this point they have still yet to hold a real job.

I would consider dermatology a real job. Just not so many hours, which isn't that bad of a thing to have.
 

BiggMann79

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 16, 2003
150
0
44
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by fullefect1
I would consider dermatology a real job. Just not so many hours, which isn't that bad of a thing to have.

I meant prior to the start of the dermatology residency.
 

Buster Douglas

Unregistered User
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
May 22, 2003
315
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student
Originally posted by Harrie
They didn't bust their butts for skin, they work for big money, little work, a nice house, and plenty of vacation time.
Thank you, Captain Obvious. :hardy:

It's just sad that the medical world's 'best of the best' are being funnelled into derm.
 

irlandesa

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 17, 2003
683
0
Status (Visible)
it really depends on how your school weighs grades. If your first and second year grades count as much as your third and fourth year grades, than it might be a good idea to bust @$$ all the way through. If the first two years are H/P/F or P/F, or are not really counted in your class rank (assuming that's what you care about most); I'd suggest just trying to learn the material as best as you can during the basic science years and save your energy for Step 1 and the crucial third year. No point in burning out and losing sleep over years 1 and 2 in that case. Third year grades are a strange combination of luck, clinical and interpersonal skills, and knowledge, and sometimes it is difficult to predict exactly what kind of evaluation you'll get. From what I hear, most people get disappointed or are not evaluated completely fairly on at least one rotation; it just happens since the system is not perfect. My main advice for 3rd year is to study hard for the shelf exams (unless your school doesn't use them) and try, if you have the option, to get assigned to clinical sites known for having a lot of contact with attendings and/or having attendings heavily involved in grading you. Many of my classmates and I have experienced that attending physicians give better feedback and generally better evaluations than do residents (who were often burnt out and too tired or busy to do a lot of teaching or give appropriate feedback where I did my rotations).
 

florisio

Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Aug 11, 2001
40
0
Status (Visible)
most of the people i know who brag about being a gunner don't do too well in med school. I guess youre best bet is to be a closet gunner. That way everyone won't hate you.

-F
 

jed2023

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 11, 2002
132
1
New York
Status (Visible)
That GunnerMD site was pretty lame, but it at least had one funny quote supposedly from Arnie.

"I was told at an early age that if you fall down and start to bleed, you should look at the wound and say, 'What the hell.' The other day I saw a little girl fall and I told her, 'So what if you're bleeding. Just say, 'What the hell.''" - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Seriously, though, I don't understand why there is such intense animosity (bordering on repressed rage) from most med students concerning "gunners." If they are the type that sabatoges others (in order to get their way), that's one thing, but I don't think that applies to most of them. Many of them are just intense, driven, people. And some of them, perhaps the majority, will make fine doctors.

So, what's the deal with all this hate, sarcasm, ridicule, and stereo-typing? Sounds like some of you have had your butt burned, or, perhaps, are secretly jealous?
 

Seaglass

Quantum Member
15+ Year Member
Jul 25, 2003
1,614
6
42
Winston Salem, NC
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I suspect that a lot of the animosity is due to the fact that, despite intentions not to harm their classmates in pursuit of "gunner-topia" they usually do by 1) stealing pimp questions 2) Stealing good pts/cases and 3) kissing a lot of ass. You'll notice that these are all things that generally apply to the clinical years, since gunners in general don't have the best people skills in my experience. Believe it or not you can do a lot of damage with the above 3 things.

C
 
About the Ads

Galaxian

You wanna get high?
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 1, 2003
294
2
Secret Military Base
Status (Visible)
Scary how the best of the best are gonna be eye doctors and dermatologists. Meanwhile, mediocre FMGs are going to be the next generation of physicians and surgeons. Well, maybe they have a better work ethic than us americans...

If you wanna do well in med school, you don't need to be gifted. You just have to be a mule who's willing to put in the work to get the grades, and have the people skills to keep your superiors and your classmates happy. But you knew that already, so what the hell are you doing cruising SDN?
 

5oProlene

Membership Revoked
Removed
15+ Year Member
Jan 5, 2004
698
0
Status (Visible)
Gunners are like this because they have the need to draw attention to themselves. I mean everybody in med school studies and has to take the same exams, but for some reason gunners feel the need to let everybody in the class know just how hard they are studying and how "hard core" they are about it all. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most gunners don't have much of a life outside of med school and this is their way of getting noticed and feeling like they are "important". In other words, they are over-compensating for something lacking in their lives. It's sad but these are the type of people who go on to become doctors who have nothing going on for them in their lives except medicine. Retirement is the hardest for these doctors because they realize once they retire they don't have much to look forward to every day since medicine has virtually encompassed their entire being.
 
8

8744

Originally posted by cg1155
I suspect that a lot of the animosity is due to the fact that, despite intentions not to harm their classmates in pursuit of "gunner-topia" they usually do by 1) stealing pimp questions 2) Stealing good pts/cases and 3) kissing a lot of ass. You'll notice that these are all things that generally apply to the clinical years, since gunners in general don't have the best people skills in my experience. Believe it or not you can do a lot of damage with the above 3 things.

C


How does one steal good patients and cases? I'm almost done with third year and I think the bigger problem is people trying to get patients with only one "chief complaint" and a minimal past medical history as these are easier to work-up and simpler to write notes on.

When I was doing neo-natal nursery, we had to do a certain amount of write-ups every week. I'm not saying I did this but a friend of friend of a friend would pre-screen charts to make sure the mother and baby were't too complicated.
 

Mike59

Sweatshop FP in Ontario
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 20, 2001
1,084
6
The inner-net
Status (Visible)
To me, hunner mentality seems to be very nearsighted...

If you look back on your life 20 years from now, how important will all this "gunning" be in the grand scheme of things?

I totally aced out in college myself, but still managed to have fun...Looking back even at college, I'm proudest not of my grades, but my diverse work and social experiences outside the classroom. Once med school came, I slipped into P=MD mode.

All this guning WILL NOT make you a better doctor! You're preparing to essentially toss away a HUGE chunk of socializing/fun time to bust your brains for a rank or test score, but for what goal?

After being puked on, pimped and one-upped by people that know more than you (and there is always someone), yelled at by patients and attendings, all while in a sleep deprived state- you have to think about what will allow you to actually smile at the end of the day- My gut tells me that a sky high USMLE score or class rank isn't gonna do the trick....
 

shigalosis

Junior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 5, 2004
14
1
Status (Visible)
Among some people in my class we've differentiated between "Gunner" and "Throat". A gunner is someone who is just striving for #1. A "Throat" is a gunner who in the process ruins things for the rest of the class. Throats tend to be poor students who are hypermotivated but constantly frustrated.

I don't think med school year 1-2 are that hard actually. It's just a TON of brainless memorizing and regurgitation. The only way to know it all is not some kind of intrinsic genius but just sheer bulk time investing in memorizing this. There is virtually no conceptual work.

So, obviously, a motivated and intelligent person will strive to be number one. I think there are a lot of people hating on the top 10% just because they realize it's not worth there time to exhaust themselves memorizing Robbins. But if someone is motivated enough, props to them, I'll even help them out.

Throats, may terrible things happen to them, on the other hand, are the reason medschool can be so miserable.
 

Galaxian

You wanna get high?
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 1, 2003
294
2
Secret Military Base
Status (Visible)
How does one steal good patients and cases? I'm almost done with third year and I think the bigger problem is people trying to get patients with only one "chief complaint" and a minimal past medical history as these are easier to work-up and simpler to write notes on.

You answered your own question...you're almost done with third year. By the end of third year, most students (except for the most goody two shoes ones) have learned the concept of conservation of energy. That is, work as much as you need to, and not an ounce of effort more.
 

irlandesa

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 17, 2003
683
0
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by Galaxian
You answered your own question...you're almost done with third year. By the end of third year, most students (except for the most goody two shoes ones) have learned the concept of conservation of energy. That is, work as much as you need to, and not an ounce of effort more.

very true, but I think it is a shame to have no interest or motivation whatsoever in learning about how to treat more complex patients. One girl on my peds rotation insisted on taking all the babies with rashes or mild asthma b/c to quote her "those are the easiest patients." She would then use her free time to sit around the lounge whining about how third year was too much work and how she just wanted to take time off to hang out with her boyfriend. I know people think the residents notice when people act this way, but from what I hear, her grade was just as good as anyone else's on the rotation..
 
L

le fort guy

I think a lot of the gunner animosity is due to jealousy. Most gunners in real life don't rip out pages of books or hide other sources. Maybe that happens in law school but in med school, we aren't dependent upon texts. We get nice little handouts and some schools even have a transcript service on top of that so I don't see how gunners in med school could really hurt another student. Most gunners are of the closet variety and the ones who are open about their gunner status are usually just overzealous. The truth is people dislike gunners because they are the goody two shoes of grade school. They are the people who study when I party. They are the students who go to class when I'm in bed. They stay on top of things when I procrastinate. They get to know their professors as opposed never saying more than 5 words to them all semester like most students. I'm not a gunner and I'm fine with that, but I don't see why you have to hate them.

And let's also bring up another fact, anyone who graduates in the top 20% of their class is a gunner. They may try to come accross as if they are some genius who never studies. They may mock other gunners to take attention away from themselves. They would love to convey that they are laid back surfer dude who just happened to get 97% on their anatomy exam out of pure luck. It amazes that we still have these con artists in medical school.

PLEASE, the fact is that anyone who does well in medical school studies like a gunner. Now, whether they get the gunner label or not is purely based on how they sell themself. But the truth is they study as hard as any gunner in private yet downplay their studying in order to be liked.

I knew a guy just like this who matched ENT. He always downplayed his studying and pretended that all he did was drink all the time. No one just "accidentally" matches for Derm, ENT, Neurosurgery, Integrated Plastics, Radiology, Urology, Opthalmology and good programs. It amazes that people still have that grade school mentality where they lie about their studying so they can be one of the "cool" kids.

And stop with the "Gunning won't make you a better doctor" No $h!t. You think Gunners aren't aware of that? Gunners also know that if they don't gun, they won't ever match for that prestigious residency they are seeking either. They can be a nice and likable doctor after they have matched for that Derm residency. You can always change your personality later but you can't go back and change your grades.

Grow Up people and accept reality. Quit whining about gunners and start studying.
 

Vincristine

Full Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 29, 2004
420
1
Boston
www.hejweca.org
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by uclacrewdude
by definition, a gunner cannot care most about his pts, b/c a gunner is too busy caring about his grades rather than actually learning the material and successfully learning how to interact with people. if you strive to get the best grades, unless youre just naturally smart, youre going to be missing out on all the pt contact activities all the rest of us are doing.

Well said crewdude. I've not met a gunner I liked mostly because they don't have a clue about actual patient care, what it means to BE a patient, or worse, how to actually make someone -- a PERSON -- feel better. One of our worst gunners wants to go into Onc, and as a cancer survivor I have a VERY hard time not taking him into a corner and beating him senseless because the last thing a cancer patient needs is a gunner for a doctor!
 

bansheeDO

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 14, 2004
61
0
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by le fort guy
I think a lot of the gunner animosity is due to jealousy. Most gunners in real life don't rip out pages of books or hide other sources. Maybe that happens in law school but in med school, we aren't dependent upon texts. We get nice little handouts and some schools even have a transcript service on top of that so I don't see how gunners in med school could really hurt another student. Most gunners are of the closet variety and the ones who are open about their gunner status are usually just overzealous. The truth is people dislike gunners because they are the goody two shoes of grade school. They are the people who study when I party. They are the students who go to class when I'm in bed. They stay on top of things when I procrastinate. They get to know their professors as opposed never saying more than 5 words to them all semester like most students. I'm not a gunner and I'm fine with that, but I don't see why you have to hate them.

And let's also bring up another fact, anyone who graduates in the top 20% of their class is a gunner. They may try to come accross as if they are some genius who never studies. They may mock other gunners to take attention away from themselves. They would love to convey that they are laid back surfer dude who just happened to get 97% on their anatomy exam out of pure luck. It amazes that we still have these con artists in medical school.

PLEASE, the fact is that anyone who does well in medical school studies like a gunner. Now, whether they get the gunner label or not is purely based on how they sell themself. But the truth is they study as hard as any gunner in private yet downplay their studying in order to be liked.

I knew a guy just like this who matched ENT. He always downplayed his studying and pretended that all he did was drink all the time. No one just "accidentally" matches for Derm, ENT, Neurosurgery, Integrated Plastics, Radiology, Urology, Opthalmology and good programs. It amazes that people still have that grade school mentality where they lie about their studying so they can be one of the "cool" kids.

And stop with the "Gunning won't make you a better doctor" No $h!t. You think Gunners aren't aware of that? Gunners also know that if they don't gun, they won't ever match for that prestigious residency they are seeking either. They can be a nice and likable doctor after they have matched for that Derm residency. You can always change your personality later but you can't go back and change your grades.

Grow Up people and accept reality. Quit whining about gunners and start studying.

Thanks for injecting a dose of reality into this thread. If I aspired to match into a competitive residency, I too would obsess about my grades and "gun" for top grades.

Asking someone to be social, and well balanced in medical school if they are trying to match for a highly competitive residency is naive and shortsighted.

I have seen some very nice students become gunners because they wanted to match orthopedic surgery. Unfortunately, most people can't be like Patch Adams and be socialites in medical school while still finishing near the top of the class. Normal people have to study their a$$ off to be finish in the top 20%.

Patient care doesn't begin until 3rd and 4th year so there is nothing wrong with gunning in the first 2 years of medical school. I would much rather have matched into the residency that I sought and miss some parties than the flipside.
 
About the Ads

pxz

Justice
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 9, 2003
193
0
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by bansheeDO

In my humble opinion, I think people who finish near the top are gifted. I don't know of any average students who finished in the top 5% of his or her class.

I hope this message does not get lost because it is so true. You might not be able to be on the top even if you study 24/7. I gave up the idea of being in top 10% or whatever after the first semester and my life has beome much easier and more enjoyable.
 

Wrigleyville

Fugitive Tech Consultant
15+ Year Member
Jan 6, 2003
1,382
4
Chicago, IL
Status (Visible)
Medical school isn't like high school. You aren't the smartest guy anymore around anymore. You could study 24/7 and still get smoked by many of your classmates -- welcome to the middle of the bell curve. My advice is not to try and win all the time -- just study until you don't care to know anymore about a particular topic, and feel comfortable with what you know.
 

Joe Joe on da Radio

Gissepi
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 13, 2002
644
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
most of the exam questions are straight recall or 1st order questions, at least in my experience. mostly everyone in the class tends to get these questions right, ~80%. sounds like an easy task, but that's the bulk of the challenge in med school since there are literally millions of things you have to just memorize. the key to rising above the middle of the pack is answering correctly the 2nd/3rd order questions, i.e., applying the facts, where ~30% of the class tends to get correct. the key to doing well then is to know the facts and understand how to apply them. if you combine that with test-taking skill and strategy then you're golden.
 

huktonfonix

board certified!
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Oct 3, 2003
733
3
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
STAC, wheres that yoda quote from. I can't quite place the movie and its starting to bother me now. Thanks.
 

sponch

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 24, 2002
291
2
Palo Alto, CA
Status (Visible)
All this gunner talk is bull. People have this notion that just because you work too hard means that you can't deal with patients or don't know what it's like to have a "real job" or aren't personable or whatever other ridiculous accusations. I do well because I work hard not only in class but in having a friendly, approachable bedside manner. How can this be a bad thing?
 

Kosmo

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
May 16, 2001
180
0
Ann Arbor, Mi
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by sponch
All this gunner talk is bull. People have this notion that just because you work too hard means that you can't deal with patients or don't know what it's like to have a "real job" or aren't personable or whatever other ridiculous accusations. I do well because I work hard not only in class but in having a friendly, approachable bedside manner. How can this be a bad thing?
Relax, true gunners don't care about what message boards say about'em. No worries.
 

bansheeDO

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 14, 2004
61
0
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by Kosmo
Relax, true gunners don't care about what message boards say about'em. No worries.

Are you kidding me? True gunners are the only ones who would take offense to this post. :)
 

STAC

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 24, 2003
464
0
In my underwear
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by huktonfonix
STAC, wheres that yoda quote from. I can't quite place the movie and its starting to bother me now. Thanks.

This is from Brad Pitt in the movie Seven. The other is from Penelope Cruz in Vanilla Sky.
 

Mr.Tweed

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 18, 2003
145
0
Status (Visible)
If you want to be the top gunner, then you'd better start studying now for the fall semester. Find out which books they'll be using at your school, talk to current med students to get a course syllabus, and start studying. If you find that you're not motivated enough to start now, then it wasn't meant to be.
 

edmadison

1K Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 28, 2001
2,078
74
Lactate > 15
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Interesting thread, but getting to the heart of the OPs question. How to do well depends on how your school grades. At my school, its only core clerkships. Doing well in a clerkship does require knowledge, hardwork, and clinical skills. I also requires maturity and insight. Spending five extra minutes with a patient may seem like a waste of your time, but if that patient says something to your attending you're in good shape. You have to care about your patients and be sincere. Talk to your attendings like a mature assertive adult instead or timid child. Then when they evaluate you they will think, "I want to work with him/her as opposed to a smart kid" Remember they want someone they can trust their patients with once you become a resident.

The holy grail of the gunner is AOA. If you look at the dozen or so AOA inductees in my class about 1/3 are the brilliant folks. They will publishs 100+ papers and get huge NIH grants. You knew who they were after 1 month of school. Most of the rest are smart, but they are mature people who you'd trust your children with. In the group there was maybe one Uber-gunner, but he's smart too.

Ed
 

irlandesa

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 17, 2003
683
0
Status (Visible)
Originally posted by edmadison
Interesting thread, but getting to the heart of the OPs question. How to do well depends on how your school grades. At my school, its only core clerkships. Doing well in a clerkship does require knowledge, hardwork, and clinical skills. I also requires maturity and insight. Spending five extra minutes with a patient may seem like a waste of your time, but if that patient says something to your attending you're in good shape. You have to care about your patients and be sincere. Talk to your attendings like a mature assertive adult instead or timid child. Then when they evaluate you they will think, "I want to work with him/her as opposed to a smart kid" Remember they want someone they can trust their patients with once you become a resident.

ah, what a nice school you must go to.. As far as grades go, the VAST majority of my evaluations have been done by residents, not attendings. In fact, not one attending played a role in my evaluation in Pediatrics. I got along great with nearly every attending I met on all my rotations, but the fact is that attendings and residents have different expectations of students and that many residents are too stressed out and busy to give constructive evaluations (either positive or negative). Although knowledge, effort, and treating your patients and co-workers with respect go a very long way, there is a certain amount of luck involved in third year grading. Just because you get along famously with an attending or resident and think they teach very well does NOT mean they will get to evaluate you. And, there will always be attendings and residents that rub you the wrong way for some reason (and vice versa) no matter how sweet and nice and smart you are. I don't know, maybe it is vastly different at your school, but judging from this message board and by talking to classmates, the situation I described is not at all uncommon.
So what to do about it? After all this time on clerkships, I finally decided that I want to put all my focus into learning and helping the patients as much as possible and not into worrying about what the residents think of me. Worrying hasn't done anything for me so far except stress me out and piss me off. I figure if I'm doing my best and one sleep-deprived, cranky resident takes a dislike to me anyway, who cares? so I won't get AOA or a residency at Brigham or MGH, I still get to be a doctor (and a good one, I like to think). BTW, in spite of my bitching I did like most of my residents a whole lot..
 

zazzookode

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 5, 2003
73
6
Status (Visible)
The worst advice you can receive is being told to only memorize everything. That was the worst advice I received. Yes, you do have to memorize everything,which is true but that is only half the task. The other half is understanding how those details interelate. You have to conceptually understand what you memorize. A monkey can spend hours each day memorizing details. I know people who memorized everything I did but still failed to get an A on the exam. That's because they don't understand what they are memorizing. But most exams with have 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order questions that will require you to be able to manipulate all of the information that you memorize. At the same time, just understanding everything will not get you an A either. You have to memorize tedious details that will be in some remote corner of your notes. Memozing those details will separate those who get A's versus B's.

I study 8-10 hours a day. It takes me about 6 hours just to memorize every little detail. It takes me another 2-4 hours to see the relationship between all of the details. I'm in the top 5% of my class. I'm no genius. But I will admit that if you aren't gifted, you need a LOT of endurance and determination to be able to push yourself to studying 8 hours on a daily basis. Sure anyone can do it the week before exams. But most people can't do this everyday especially on days after exams or days when you don't need to study. So the answer to your question is that you need to develop your endurance if you want to be a true gunner because gunners like myself study nearly non-stop while our classmates are doing other things. It can be a very lonely and frustrating experience as well. Just know what you are getting yourself into. Hopefully, this will all be worth it.
 

Crimson&Clover

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Oct 27, 2003
93
0
39
Seattle
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student
Originally posted by zazzookode
The worst advice you can receive is being told to only memorize everything. That was the worst advice I received. Yes, you do have to memorize everything,which is true but that is only half the task. The other half is understanding how those details interelate. You have to conceptually understand what you memorize. A monkey can spend hours each day memorizing details. I know people who memorized everything I did but still failed to get an A on the exam. That's because they don't understand what they are memorizing. But most exams with have 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order questions that will require you to be able to manipulate all of the information that you memorize. At the same time, just understanding everything will not get you an A either. You have to memorize tedious details that will be in some remote corner of your notes. Memozing those details will separate those who get A's versus B's.

I study 8-10 hours a day. It takes me about 6 hours just to memorize every little detail. It takes me another 2-4 hours to see the relationship between all of the details. I'm in the top 5% of my class. I'm no genius. But I will admit that if you aren't gifted, you need a LOT of endurance and determination to be able to push yourself to studying 8 hours on a daily basis. Sure anyone can do it the week before exams. But most people can't do this everyday especially on days after exams or days when you don't need to study. So the answer to your question is that you need to develop your endurance if you want to be a true gunner because gunners like myself study nearly non-stop while our classmates are doing other things. It can be a very lonely and frustrating experience as well. Just know what you are getting yourself into. Hopefully, this will all be worth it.


first of all, i think it's great that people can sustain this kind of devotion to their studies over an extended period of time. just out of curiosity, what motivates you to do this? is it the desire to get into a good residency or the desire to be at the top of your class just for the heck of it or what??????
 

BiggMann79

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 16, 2003
150
0
44
Status (Visible)
I know it's not the same for everyone, but I know from my experience that it is absolutely NOT neccesary to study 8-10 hours a day in order to get A's.
 
About the Ads
This thread is more than 17 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.