How do people separate the med schools into tiers?

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monkeyMD

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I've noticed that some people say, I applied to ___# of top tier, ___ mid tier, and ___ low tier.
How do people organize the schools into tiers? I tend to think that a MD schools is a MD school, unless of course it's very high up on the list (like Harvard, JH, Yale, Stanford, so on).
So how important is this "tier" system that some SDNers seem to be talking about?
And why do people group med schools into tiers anyway? This isn't law school after all...

Also, Wikipedia says there are currently 126 MD schools in the US. Is this accurate?

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I've noticed that some people say, I applied to ___# of top tier, ___ mid tier, and ___ low tier.
How do people organize the schools into tiers? I tend to think that a MD schools is a MD school, unless of course it's very high up on the list (like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, so on).
So how important is this "tier" system that some SDNers seem to be talking about?
And why do people group med schools into tiers anyway? This isn't law school after all...

The rankings are based largely upon research funding. The are separate rankings for primary care, as well as many of the specialties.

I'm not familiar with any sharp demarcations between top and middle, or middle and lower tiers. You could just as easily break the schools up into quartiles, deciles, etc.

Med school reputation does matter in the match, but as you allude to, even students at lower tier med schools will end up matching somewhere for the most part. The school's "tier" matters more in the more competitive specialties.

I'm sure a lot of this comes from bragging rights among the top schools. It's more convenient to say "top tier," "bottom tier" than it is to look up the US News rank every time.
 
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The rankings are based largely upon research funding. The are separate rankings for primary care, as well as many of the specialties.

I'm not familiar with any sharp demarcations between top and middle, or middle and lower tiers. You could just as easily break the schools up into quartiles, deciles, etc.

Med school reputation does matter in the match, but as you allude to, even students at lower tier med schools will end up matching somewhere for the most part. The school's "tier" matters more in the more competitive specialties.

I'm sure a lot of this comes from bragging rights among the top schools. It's more convenient to say "top tier," "bottom tier" than it is to look up the US News rank every time.

So where is the line btwn top tier and bottom tier?
 
I know of this. However, I was wondering where med and premed students draw the line to separate the schools into tiers.
This will vary from person to person, but who cares what other premeds and med students think about school reputations? It's not like they're going to play a role in using your school's rep for/against you.
 
This will vary from person to person, but who cares what other premeds and med students think about school reputations? It's not like they're going to play a role in using your school's rep for/against you.

:laugh:
Agreed.

But as long as a school is ranked in the US rankings, shouldn't it be considered a "higher" ranking school than those that are unranked? Or is this not true necessarily (of course there must be exceptions where a very prestigious school chooses not to participate...)
 
So where is the line btwn top tier and bottom tier?
No one knows. I think it mostly depends on what school you got into (a person accepted to a school ranked #18 by US News is concerned with Top 20 as the measuring stick of greatness).
 
No one knows. I think it mostly depends on what school you got into (a person accepted to a school ranked #18 by US News is concerned with Top 20 as the measuring stick of greatness).

If you're not first, you're last.

HMS or bust.
 
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But as long as a school is ranked in the US rankings, shouldn't it be considered a "higher" ranking school than those that are unranked? Or is this not true necessarily (of course there must be exceptions where a very prestigious school chooses not to participate...)

The obsession with prestige on this forum is disheartening.
 
I've noticed that some people say, I applied to ___# of top tier, ___ mid tier, and ___ low tier.
How do people organize the schools into tiers? I tend to think that a MD schools is a MD school, unless of course it's very high up on the list (like Harvard, JH, Yale, Stanford, so on).
So how important is this "tier" system that some SDNers seem to be talking about?
And why do people group med schools into tiers anyway? This isn't law school after all...

Also, Wikipedia says there are currently 126 MD schools in the US. Is this accurate?

"Tiers" is ambiguous and subjective terminology - there are no tiers for MD programs in the US like there are for JD. The most common way of dividing up schools is by the # on the research ranking from US News. Common "tiers" would be the top 10, top 20, top 25, top 50, etc..
 
"Tiers" is ambiguous and subjective terminology - there are no tiers for MD programs in the US like there are for JD. The most common way of dividing up schools is by the # on the research ranking from US News. Common "tiers" would be the top 10, top 20, top 25, top 50, etc..
Even then it doesn't work because you get ties to where there are 8 schools in the top 5. :smuggrin:
 
If you're not first, you're last.

HMS or bust.

4v09wj.gif
 
I would argue "Top 40" over "top 50" being that "Top 40 NIH research medical school" is an item on Charting Outcomes (and, other than a couple outlier schools, close enough to US News' ranking methodology).

~Top 3
~Top 10
~Top 20
~Top 40
~Everything else that's ranked.
~Unranked.
I really doubt there's much difference between #20 and #40. You guys are making way too many tiers. There's only four tiers of law schools, and some of them actually suck. There are also a lot more of them.
 
I'm speaking "SDN tiers" with what I said...

General Public tiers:

1) Harvard/Hopkins.
2) Everything else.

The general public also thinks nurse practitioners / PAs = physicians, for what it's worth.
 
I'm speaking "SDN tiers" with what I said...

General Public tiers:

1) Harvard/Hopkins.
2) Everything else.

This for the most part, but I would say the general public goes pretty crazy over Ivys too. People are like "Dartmouth!?!?!OMFGBBQ" even though its 30+ (not that thats a bad thing because I'm still hoping for an II!) and they're like "Vanderwhut?..."
 
This for the most part, but I would say the general public goes pretty crazy over Ivys too. People are like "Dartmouth!?!?!OMFGBBQ" even though its 30+ (not that thats a bad thing because I'm still hoping for an II!) and they're like "Vanderwhut?..."
My cousin: when's your interview at Vanderburg?
 
My cousin: when's your interview at Vanderburg?

:laugh:

When I was compiling my list of top places I had people tell me that Baylor and Northwestern weren't very good schools lol

I think as far as tiers go, it doesn't really matter except in terms of NIH money and name recognition. I'm pretty happy going to a well regarded state school and don't really think too much about 'rankings' per se.
 
I would argue "Top 40" over "top 50" being that "Top 40 NIH research medical school" is an item on Charting Outcomes (and, other than a couple outlier schools, close enough to US News' ranking methodology).

~Top 3
~Top 10
~Top 20
~Top 40
~Everything else that's ranked.
~Unranked.

I generally agree with this, but when I went to visit, I didn't see that huge of a difference between Emory (#21) and UPitt (#14) even though here that would be two different tiers. In fact, Emory may even have more name recognition.
 
I generally agree with this, but when I went to visit, I didn't see that huge of a difference between Emory (#21) and UPitt (#14) even though here that would be two different tiers. In fact, Emory may even have more name recognition.
I'm sure Emory has better name recognition, just like most lay people probably don't realize that WashU isn't UWash.
 
I'm sure Emory has better name recognition, just like most lay people probably don't realize that WashU isn't UWash.

True. My father received his undergraduate degree from Washington University in St. Louis. Very few people on the West Coast are even aware of Washington University as an institution of higher learning and have virtually no awareness of its med school (other than physicians). Whenever he mentions that he graduated from Wash U, they always assume that he graduated from the University of Washington in Seattle.
 
A study from the 70s: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2577462 "The Reputations of American Medical Schools"

Old but a few thoughts may ring true today:

An introduction: "General reputation has much to do with the actual quality of a medical school." Generalizations (not data-based):
  • Reputation affects whether students and faculty apply to or choose one school over another. This affects the quality of students and faculty and perpetuates the reputation.
  • Medical school is a first but critical stepping stone in your career; reputation can affect subsequent career mobility.
  • Reputation influences students' self-esteem and self-perception within reference groups.
  • Reputation affects visibility and perceived ability of the faculty in the medical community.
  • Reputation can enhance or hinder ability to get grants or obtain resources/facilities to carry out research.

A side note: there is significant self-aggrandizement:
  1. On a scale of 0-7, faculty members rated their own (current affiliated) school 0.67 higher than do others in the medical community.
  2. Faculty members rated their alma mater 0.73 higher than others who did not receive their MD training at the school in question.
  3. Over-rating was least likely in the highest-ranked schools; most likely in the lowest-ranked schools. Statisically significantly different.
  4. But self-aggrandizement doesn't distort the rankings. There's extraordinary consensus about the relative standing of the 94 medical schools rated in this study in 1977.
  5. Past research shows there is differential association: physicians tend to associate with people who are from similarly ranked schools. This may reinforce self-aggrandizement.

Rank-order of perceived quality of the faculty, top 11 schools: The margin of error for the entire set is 0.16. My interpretation is that the tiers (in 1977) are 1) Harvard, 2) Hopkins, Stanford, UCSF, Yale, Columbia, 3) Everyone else in a smooth gradation.
School quality score, and visibility score (percentage of faculty who feel they know enough about the school to appraise it)
Harvard 5.71 87.3
Johns Hopkins 5.11 84.7
Stanford 5.11 81.2
California, San Francisco 5.01 75.1
Yale 5.00 82.0
Columbia 4.93 79.2
Duke 4.77 82.4
Michigan 4.74 76.2
Cornell 4.71 76.9
Washington, St. Louis 4.68 80.3
U.of Pennsylvania 4.66 75.6

What variables predict reputation?
In a zero-order correlation, 75% of the variance of perceived quality can be accounted for by faculty productivity (papers published in one year). Also in a zero-order correlation, 70% of the variance can be accounted for by NIH research and development (as opposed to total, including training) funding.

There is a halo effect: in general, schools that are part of universities with national reputations are rated higher than productivity predicts. Schools not part of universities (e.g. Sinai?) are rated lower.

Schools in the south are rated a bit lower than predicted (Duke, UVA, Emory, Vanderbilt). Schools in the northeast and private schools have a nearly equal opposite/positive correlation with quality (r=.20). Older schools have weakly higher ratings (r=.16).

Note that the above results are of the "quality of the medical faculty", but this is correlated with "the effectiveness of the medical training program" ratings with r=0.99, so the paper never discussed the latter.

=== Bringing it to 2011.
If we take USNWR reputation ratings as an indicator of current reputation, there are no longer very significant differences between adjacent schools on a rank order list. It's impossible to say without knowing the margin of error though.

We might say, for instance, that Harvard and Yale are statistically significantly different in peer/residency ratings, but it's probably less true both that Harvard and WashU are significantly different AND that WashU and Yale are significantly different. So there wouldn't be a basis for making "tiers" because we wouldn't be sure whether to group WashU with the first tier or the second tier.
====

tl;dr - Back in 1977 there were clearer tiers separating the very top. Today there isn't evidence for it. But there's still a statistically significant difference between something like rank 2 and rank 15.

===

That said, many people place undue significance on the "top 10" because it's a nice round number. Northwestern has an institutional goal of being in the top 10 medical schools and top 10 hospitals by 2020. A dean of something at Pitt told some applicants during my interview day that yea, they're aware they're not in the top 10; they're strong and have aspirations but who in the top 10 is going to get kicked out?
 
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