How do schools look at the distribution of the MCAT (inter-sectional)

[RogueBanana]

Hey All,

I was mulling this over the other day and I was wondering what y'all thought.
Lets say we have applicant John Doe who just took his MCAT

John's score distribution is : 127, 127, 131, 127

His high score is in the CARS section.

How would medical schools look at this? Essentially, if we look at the sciences, he is more within the 127 in all sections range, putting him closer to the 510 range. But he scores extremely high in cars, bringing his entire score up several points to the 514-515 range.

Would medical schools look at this positively, as Mr.Doe has shown he has excellent critical reasoning skills? Or would they look on it negatively, assuming his true score is a 510 and marking his CARS score as an outlier that skews his true potential?

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[Goro]

It doesn't mean anything, in this scenario.

We want ALL the scores to be high. CARS will get the most slack, though.

Most of my Adcom colleagues look especially at Bio performance, and a low Bio score can be a kiss of death. I have a few colleagues who get concerned when the Chem/Phys score is low, but they tend to be outvoted if they make it an issue.

But frankly, how the MCAT is viewed will vary from one interviewer (or screener) to another. So you can't pigeon-hole these things.

Hey All,

I was mulling this over the other day and I was wondering what y'all thought.
Lets say we have applicant John Doe who just took his MCAT

John's score distribution is : 127, 127, 131, 127

His high score is in the CARS section.

How would medical schools look at this? Essentially, if we look at the sciences, he is more within the 127 in all sections range, putting him closer to the 510 range. But he scores extremely high in cars, bringing his entire score up several points to the 514-515 range.

Would medical schools look at this positively, as Mr.Doe has shown he has excellent critical reasoning skills? Or would they look on it negatively, assuming his true score is a 510 and marking his CARS score as an outlier that skews his true potential?

 

[Pusheen]

I believe CARS is the second subsection

 

[wizzed101]

CARS may test one's critical thinking process but the other 3 sections test one's ability to transform that process into real results. I personally will be more concerned if one just has a high CARS alone because it shows a lack of productivity. Now, if one has a really high score in other 3 but low CARS, it may signal that you have an unorthodox mind that will yield results - the best of candidates. We need more diversity!

So the best score distribution would be ~ 132/125/132/132 <power gap> 132/132/132/132

 

[Pusheen]

Now, if one has a really high score in other 3 but low CARS, it may signal that you have an unorthodox mind that will yield results - the best of candidates. We need more diversity!

Disagree that scoring low on CARS is a measure of productivity or diversity. ESL speakers often get disproportionately low CARS scores, as well as people with poor reading comprehension.
However, if someone actually did have 127/131/127/127 I would think they were quite bright but didn't study as much as they should have

 

[wizzed101]

Eh. I've seen a a few 528 around here and but only 1 521 with 132/125/132/132. So that tells you something ...

And to your second point, honestly, I'd rather be labeled as "reading a lot" than "quite bright but didn't study as much as they should have" with the same score distribution. The latter is quite alarming in the context of med schools. It should be a disqualifying factor if proven...

 

[Allergic to Toradol]

I will inherently have some bias against the CARS section since it is my worst, but I feel that I got quite "unlucky" when it came to exam day regarding what types of passages I got. On the two big sections (CP & BB), I scored 129 and 130, respectively. Even on most of my practice exams, I got anywhere from a 126 up to a 130 on the CARS section, but I realized that the type of passages really played into my score for that section. If you get some very convoluted and quite frankly boring and less than intriguing passages on exam day, it's not unreasonable to think that your CARS score will be lower than you are probably capable of... at least this was my experience. On the contrary, I think it would be hard to just randomly improve from a 126 to a 130 on one of the science heavy sections simply based on what content you were tested on given how extensive the content outline is for those sections. That is why I feel those sections are more important and representative, especially since they are founded upon the content knowledge you were supposed to have learned over your undergrad career and are the basis for the science-heavy medical school curriculum. Just my two cents.

 

[libertyyne]

I will inherently have some bias against the CARS section since it is my worst, but I feel that I got quite "unlucky" when it came to exam day regarding what types of passages I got. On the two big sections (CP & BB), I scored 129 and 130, respectively. Even on most of my practice exams, I got anywhere from a 126 up to a 130 on the CARS section, but I realized that the type of passages really played into my score for that section. If you get some very convoluted and quite frankly boring and less than intriguing passages on exam day, it's not unreasonable to think that your CARS score will be lower than you are probably capable of... at least this was my experience. On the contrary, I think it would be hard to just randomly improve from a 126 to a 130 on one of the science heavy sections simply based on what content you were tested on given how extensive the content outline is for those sections. That is why I feel those sections are more important and representative, especially since they are founded upon the content knowledge you were supposed to have learned over your undergrad career and are the basis for the science-heavy medical school curriculum. Just my two cents.

IDK about all that. High CARS scorers tend to consistently score high. I think it is common knowledge that it is easier to increase BB or CP PS score compared to the CARS. Importance wise as GORO pointed out everyone has their pet sections. A high balanced score is a good score, and that cannot be achieved without decent performance on all the sections.

 

[Allergic to Toradol]

IDK about all that. High CARS scorers tend to consistently score high. I think it is common knowledge that it is easier to increase BB or CP PS score compared to the CARS. Importance wise as GORO pointed out everyone has their pet sections. A high balanced score is a good score, and that cannot be achieved without decent performance on all the sections.

I agree with that analysis. It's very rare to see someone do well in the other sections and do poorly in the CARS, but it isn't uncommon to see someone with the opposite score distribution. All I'm saying is that a high CARS score with average science scores no less determines your aptitude for handling the rigors of medical school than does the opposite score distribution of someone doing astounding in CARS and not so well in the sciences. Honestly, just like @Goro has said, I feel like that would be far more concerning than the former. If you don't do well in science related aptitude exams, how can you expect to do well in what is considered to be one of the most difficult academic environments in the world with a foundation that is built on the sciences?

 

[Goro]

Are you kidding? CARS is the bane of ESL students. I define "poorly" as a 125 in CARS and > 129 in the other sections

I agree with that analysis. It's very rare to see someone do well in the other sections and do poorly in the CARS, but it isn't uncommon to see someone with the opposite score distribution. All I'm saying is that a high CARS score with average science scores no less determines your aptitude for handling the rigors of medical school than does the opposite score distribution of someone doing astounding in CARS and not so well in the sciences. Honestly, just like @Goro has said, I feel like that would be far more concerning than the former. If you don't do well in science related aptitude exams, how can you expect to do well in what is considered to be one of the most difficult academic environments in the world with a foundation that is built on the sciences?

 

[libertyyne]

I agree with that analysis. It's very rare to see someone do well in the other sections and do poorly in the CARS, but it isn't uncommon to see someone with the opposite score distribution. All I'm saying is that a high CARS score with average science scores no less determines your aptitude for handling the rigors of medical school than does the opposite score distribution of someone doing astounding in CARS and not so well in the sciences. Honestly, just like @Goro has said, I feel like that would be far more concerning than the former. If you don't do well in science related aptitude exams, how can you expect to do well in what is considered to be one of the most difficult academic environments in the world with a foundation that is built on the sciences?

There is some research out there that refutes what you are saying. It actually makes the claim that CARS has better predictive power for performance going out. There was a thread that was about this exact question. But that being said. having a 520 is incredible feat regardless of what the breakdown looks like.

 

[Dagrimsta1]

CARS
Crazy Ass Retarted Section

 

[Allergic to Toradol]

Are you kidding? CARS is the bane of ESL students. I define "poorly" as a 125 in CARS and > 129 in the other sections

Admittedly, ESL students weren't the primary group of students that I was talking about. It is completely understandable as to why they wouldn't do as well on that sections and as an adcom, I'm sure you take this into account as well. All I meant was that between equal composite scores of a 127/125/127/127 and a 125/131/125/125, the first examinee wins hands down.

There is some research out there that refutes what you are saying. It actually makes the claim that CARS has better predictive power for performance going out. There was a thread that was about this exact question. But that being said. having a 520 is incredible feat regardless of what the breakdown looks like.

So is this why Canadian schools seem to care so much more about this section? I've never understood why their seems to be such a difference between "acceptable" Canadian and American MCAT scores.

 

[Goro]

I agree. We want to see people master all the subjects, not just a few. In med school, you have to keep a lot of balls in the air, when juggling.

Haven't a clue why the Canadians view it so differently.

Admittedly, ESL students weren't the primary group of students that I was talking about. It is completely understandable as to why they wouldn't do as well on that sections and as an adcom, I'm sure you take this into account as well. All I meant was that between equal composite scores of a 127/125/127/127 and a 125/131/125/125, the first examinee wins hands down.

So is this why Canadian schools seem to care so much more about this section? I've never understood why their seems to be such a difference between "acceptable" Canadian and American MCAT scores.

 

[libertyyne]

I agree. We want to see people master all the subjects, not just a few. In med school, you have to keep a lot of balls in the air, when juggling.

Haven't a clue why the Canadians view it so differently.

I think this might explain it
http://www.internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon et al (2007) Acad Med.pdf
http://peds.stanford.edu/faculty-resources/documents/MedSchoolAdmissions.whatpredictssuccess.pdf

Verbal seems to have the most consistent correlation increasing in strength across the USMLE STEPS. I wonder what the new test's correlations look like.

"Physical Sciences (MCAT-PS) demonstrates a moderately strong correlation that drifts downwards with increasing time from medical school admission. Biological Sciences (MCAT-BS) demonstrates a strong correlation which trends downwards with increasing time from medical school admission, though in an even less precipitous fashion than MCAT-PS.

Writing Sample (MCAT-WS) would be categorized more appropriately in the section below entitled ‘‘and What Hasn’t (Worked)’’. MCAT-WS has failed to demonstrate consistently positive results for predictive validity.

Verbal Reasoning (MCAT-VR) demonstrates moderately strong correlations. These correlations are not only sustained, but strengthened, with increasing time from medical school admission. The relative immunity to time of MCAT-VR compared to MCAT-PS and MCAT-BS (Violato and Donnon 2005) bears some scrutiny. It may be due to a combination of factors. One factor may be that MCAT-VR is less context-bound, so correlations with future performance remain unaffected as the context changes. Another may be that MCAT-VR straddles the somewhat artificial divide between cognitive and non-cognitive domains and therefore remains relevant, even as assessment measures in clerkship and on national licensing examinations shift from cognitive towards non-cognitive domains."

 

[wizzed101]

I believe there are people with very high CARS in this thread. I would like to test something ^^
Some trivia:
Hostess clubs are a common feature in the night-time entertainment industry of Japan, East Asian countries, and other areas with a high Japanese population. They employ primarily female staff and cater to males seeking drinks and attentive conversation.

Yakuza is basically the mafia in Japan.

Tokyo bar manager arrested for employing minors as hostesses

TOKYO —

Police in Tokyo have arrested the 32-year-old manager of a bar for employing high school girls as hostesses.

According to police, Yuichi Yamada, who runs a “girls bar” called DIOSA in Yushima, Bunkyo Ward, employed four girls aged 15 to 17 to work late at night in September and October, in violation of labor regulations, Fuji TV reported. In Japan, it is illegal to employ anyone under the age of 18 to work between the hours of 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. Yamada has been charged with violating the Labor Standards Law.

Police said that for past seven months, sales at Yamada’s establishment were around 40 million yen and it is reported that some girls even earned 300,000 yen (3,000 USD) a month. According to police reports, Yamada is also a member of the Yamaguchi-gumi crime syndicate.

2 questions:
_What was the exact deed that led to the arrest of the owner?
_Who wrote this?

 

[libertyyne]

I believe there are people with very high CARS in this thread. I would like to test something ^^
Some trivia:
Hostess clubs are a common feature in the night-time entertainment industry of Japan, East Asian countries, and other areas with a high Japanese population. They employ primarily female staff and cater to males seeking drinks and attentive conversation.

Yakuza is basically the mafia in Japan.

2 questions:
_What was the exact deed that led to the arrest of the owner?
Basically asking underage girls to work hours at night.
_Who wrote this?
Local news paper as it seems to be citing an investigation done by Fiji tv.

 

[wizzed101]

It's not illegal to run hostess clubs. It's not illegal to hire underage girls to work in hostess clubs. It's not illegal to be a yakuza.
He got into troubled by allowing some girls to work past 10 PM (by law, the girls have to be home before 10 to get ready for school the next day as high school education is mandatory over there).

But your answer to the who question is not quite right. You tried hard to answer the first question because you suspected a trap question so you missed the second one.

 

[Lawpy]

Are you kidding? CARS is the bane of ESL students. I define "poorly" as a 125 in CARS and > 129 in the other sections

A 125 in CARS is roughly a 9 on the old verbal.

Although I do agree that anything less than that is pretty bad. That's why it's a bit reasonable to see CARS getting the most slack as opposed to bio subsections.

I always do want to see adcom evaluation of a candidate who got a 519 with subsection breakdown of 132/132/123/132 on the MCAT (123 in bio).

 

[libertyyne]

It's not illegal to run hostess clubs. It's not illegal to hire underage girls to work in hostess clubs. It's not illegal to be a yakuza.
He got into troubled by allowing some girls to work past 10 PM (by law, the girls have to be home before 10 to get ready for school the next day as high school education is mandatory over there).

But your answer to the who question is not quite right. You tried hard to answer the first question because you suspected a trap question so you missed the second one.

I also didn't quite care. And it's not multiple choice. It requires no effort to answer the first question since it is literally explained in the passage. I inferred that it was a newspaper since it was written as such.

 

[Pusheen]

CARS questions are literally nothing like this

 

[Lawpy]

I believe there are people with very high CARS in this thread. I would like to test something ^^
Some trivia:
Hostess clubs are a common feature in the night-time entertainment industry of Japan, East Asian countries, and other areas with a high Japanese population. They employ primarily female staff and cater to males seeking drinks and attentive conversation.

Yakuza is basically the mafia in Japan.

2 questions:
_What was the exact deed that led to the arrest of the owner?
_Who wrote this?

It's not illegal to run hostess clubs. It's not illegal to hire underage girls to work in hostess clubs. It's not illegal to be a yakuza.
He got into troubled by allowing some girls to work past 10 PM (by law, the girls have to be home before 10 to get ready for school the next day as high school education is mandatory over there).

But your answer to the who question is not quite right. You tried hard to answer the first question because you suspected a trap question so you missed the second one.

>wants to test people with very high CARS
>asks questions not representative of CARS

 

[libertyyne]

A 125 in CARS is roughly a 9 on the old verbal.

Although I do agree that anything less than that is pretty bad. That's why it's a bit reasonable to see CARS getting the most slack as opposed to bio subsections.

I always do want to see adcom evaluation of a candidate who got a 519 with subsection breakdown of 132/132/123/132 on the MCAT (123 in bio).

I have a similar breakdown, but c\p being the culprit. I haven't been asked a single question about it during interviews.

 

[wizzed101]

zzz you people. I thought high CARS implied good reasoning skill because I couldn't care less about CARS style questions/passages hence the snippet.
That reinforced my point. Thank you very much ^_^

Shameless self-quoting

CARS may test one's critical thinking process but the other 3 sections test one's ability to transform that process into real results. I personally will be more concerned if one just has a high CARS alone because it shows a lack of productivity. Now, if one has a really high score in other 3 but low CARS, it may signal that you have an unorthodox mind that will yield results - the best of candidates. We need more diversity!

No newspaper would write crap like that unless it's the Huffington Post or so. The writer is obviously a foreigner, probably of Western origin. I gave you enough information to infer as much.

 

[freak7]

CARS questions are literally nothing like this

Not enough bland descriptions of art/architecture by two artists/architects that nobody's ever heard of.

 

[freak7]

The writer is obviously a foreigner, probably of Western origin. I gave you enough information to infer as much.

Right, I should've known since it was written in English and not Japanese. Man how could I fall for that trap. /s

 

[wizzed101]

Right, I should've known since it was written in English and not Japanese. Man how could I fall for that trap. /s

It could've been a translation for foreigners, just like those you found on the Japan Times. But obviously, you missed the point. I have some beefs with CARS but "obscure" authors and topics are not one of them. That is actually what I loved most about CARS ^_^

 

[Pusheen]

zzz you people. I thought high CARS implied good reasoning skill because I couldn't care less about CARS style questions/passages hence the snippet.
That reinforced my point. Thank you very much ^_^

Shameless self-quoting


No newspaper would write crap like that unless it's the Huffington Post or so. The writer is obviously a foreigner, probably of Western origin. I gave you enough information to infer as much.

I guess you'll have to chalk this up with that mcat method and mmi of yours. Is too bad the masses don't appreciate your wisdom

 

[freak7]

But obviously, you missed the point.

*woosh*

 

[RogueBanana]

zzz you people. I thought high CARS implied good reasoning skill because I couldn't care less about CARS style questions/passages hence the snippet.
That reinforced my point. Thank you very much ^_^

Shameless self-quoting


No newspaper would write crap like that unless it's the Huffington Post or so. The writer is obviously a foreigner, probably of Western origin. I gave you enough information to infer as much.

It just looks like a bad translation by a newspaper.

You could speculate that this was translated by a westerner, but you could just as easily infer it was written by a native Japanese speaker with rudimentary english skills. The target audience is most likely american (due to the use of USD & Yen) I've read translated articles from foreign news sites and they read remarkably similar to this.

Anything further is just conjecture.

 

[freak7]

I have so many funny things to say about this thread but they're all mean so I can't.

 

[wizzed101]

I guess you'll have to chalk this up with that mcat method and mmi of yours. Is too bad the masses don't appreciate your wisdom

What methods? And those MMIs, I got my source and of course I am not sharing, but safe to say that my source is better than your textbook. With that in mind, you should be now able to infer that I am not doing this for the mass' appreciation (and that I don't like to teach)

It just looks like a bad translation by a newspaper.

You could speculate that this was translated by a westerner, but you could just as easily infer it was written by a native Japanese speaker with rudimentary english skills. The target audience is most likely american (due to the use of USD & Yen) I've read translated articles from foreign news sites and they read remarkably similar to this.

Anything further is just conjecture.

Bold part makes no sense logically. The USD conversion was added because I thought some people may not be familiar with the currency. Anyway, the style was not what gave away. It's the content. But "wooshhhh"

 

[RogueBanana]

Bold part makes no sense logically.

Pointing out two equally plausible conclusions from an ambiguous snippet makes no sense logically?

 

[libertyyne]

zzz you people. I thought high CARS implied good reasoning skill because I couldn't care less about CARS style questions/passages hence the snippet.
That reinforced my point. Thank you very much ^_^

Shameless self-quoting


No newspaper would write crap like that unless it's the Huffington Post or so. The writer is obviously a foreigner, probably of Western origin. I gave you enough information to infer as much.
Shameless self-quoting




CARS may test one's critical thinking process but the other 3 sections test one's ability to transform that process into real results. I personally will be more concerned if one just has a high CARS alone because it shows a lack of productivity. Now, if one has a really high score in other 3 but low CARS, it may signal that you have an unorthodox mind that will yield results - the best of candidates. We need more diversity!

What ever makes you sleep better at night. By That logic we should increase diversity by accepting candidates with 483 scores as well, because they clearly think differently.

 

[wizzed101]

What ever makes you sleep better at night. By That logic we should increase diversity by accepting candidates with 483 scores as well, because they clearly think differently.

What you said is mathematically impossible. Thanks

Pointing out two equally plausible conclusions from an ambiguous snippet makes no sense logically?

Two mutually exclusive conclusions *

 

[freak7]

What you said is mathematically impossible. Thanks


Two mutually exclusive conclusions *

You realize being equally plausible and mutually exclusive are not mutually exclusive, right?

Example: flip a dang coin

Edit: @Matthew9Thirtyfive I'm going to need some backup in here pretty soon

 

[Pusheen]

You realize being equally plausible and mutually exclusive are not mutually exclusive, right?

Example: flip a dang coin

Edit: @Matthew9Thirtyfive I'm going to need some backup in here pretty soon

 

[libertyyne]

What you said is mathematically impossible. Thanks


Two mutually exclusive conclusions *

 

[freak7]

View attachment 210391

Shameless self quote:

I have so many funny things to say about this thread but they're all mean so I can't.

 

[Lawpy]

What you said is mathematically impossible. Thanks


Two mutually exclusive conclusions *

But obviously, you missed the point.

 

[freak7]

 

[Lawpy]

@mmmcdowe approves

 

[freak7]

@mmmcdowe approves

HA

 

[LutGholein]

CARS was perhaps my most variable score when I took practice exams-- it really depended on the bulk of articles-- are they primarily PoliSci? Psych? Humanities? -- that pretty much dictated my score elevation/drop. Bio/Biochem and the rest kept me afloat and the practice exams mirrored reality for the most part. Idk i'm probably biased-- but I hated CARS.

 

[Kgizzle]

Not enough bland descriptions of art/architecture by two artists/architects that nobody's ever heard of.

Flashback to the Picasso practice passage

 

[freak7]

Flashback to the Picasso practice passage

Uggggggh

 

[wizzed101]

You realize being equally plausible and mutually exclusive are not mutually exclusive, right?

Example: flip a dang coin

That's a loaded question. You were implying that the original options were equally feasible. Besides, that wasn't the reason why the statement was illogical.

I admit bad choice of words. Do you know a nice word to describe a statement like this?

When flipping a dime, getting Roosevelt or Lincoln is equally likely.

I'm going to need some backup in here pretty soon

Geez, I am not that good, or am I?

 

[freak7]

I admit bad choice of words. Do you know a nice word to describe a statement like this?

When flipping a dime, getting Roosevelt or Lincoln is equally likely.

I'd go with "false"

 

[wizzed101]

It's technically correct but does not quite capture the context. But that's a bad example because most people know what president is on a dime.

I am not quite sure how one can read a passage and say that it can be either written by an English speaking westerner or a Japanese with poor language skill. Technically, it is a logical statement if the author cannot read. But that is quite odd in the context of this thread.

 

[RogueBanana]

It's technically correct but does not quite capture the context. But that's a bad example because most people know what president is on a dime.

I am not quite sure how one can read a passage and say that it can be either written by an English speaking westerner or a Japanese with poor language skill. Technically, it is a logical statement if the author cannot read. But that is quite odd in the context of this thread.

My intention was:

The page is written in rudimentary english

This could be due to an english speaker not knowing Japanese well enough to create a detailed translation (unable to convey minutiae)

This could also be due to a native Japanese speaker not being able to translate the minutiae due to limited english proficiency

either way, a rudimentary, choppy news article such as this one could be the product......


My point is the only inferences we can make, based on evidence:

-The snippet is written for english speakers (because it's in english)
-The snippet targets Americans or other nations relying on US Dollar values (perhaps the international business community?)
-The article is written in a factual format consistent with news reporting techniques. It is probably from a newspaper.

edit* spelling