How do these med schools rank?

[222premed222]

Brown and Tufts are called "low yield" med schools, but where do they actually rank? Are they in the top or mid category? What about Rutgers med school?

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[LizzyM]

US News:
Tufts #53
Brown #38
Rutgers #70

Why should you care? Do you know what is measured in these US News rankings? Do you think that it is a measure of how well a school will prepare you to practice medicine?

The low yield schools tend to get a huge number of applications as for some folks it is a reach and for others it is a reasonable choice based on average stats, etc. and the location or reputation makes it a highly desirable school.

Of course, a school that is highly selective plays into the ranking so what you call those "low yield" schools are in part ranked by the fact that they turn away a large proportion of their applicants.

 

[Goro]

Brown and Tufts are called "low yield" med schools, but where do they actually rank? Are they in the top or mid category? What about Rutgers med school?

The only people who care about med school ranks (which are given by US Snooze and Worst Report) are starry-eyed pre-meds and med school Deans.

Brown is a low yield school because they highly favor their own UG students.

I wouldn't call Tufts a low yield school. If they are, it's because they get > 12,000 apps.

Rutgers is a state school that is super heavily biased against OOS applicants.

Any MD school will give you a fine medical education, whether it's John Burns or Harvard, U WA or U Miami, Albany or Yale.

And I got news for you. Unless you're gunning for academic medicine and want a lab of your own, your attending salary in any given specialty will be the same no matter where you go to med school, and that includes DO schools.

 

[Mkif586]

The correct rank:
USMD > USDO >>>>>>>> any other school (with exception to some Israel schools that have ties with the State or New York and probably Oxford/Cambridge (not sure about that though given how fast things are changing))

 

[LizzyM]

And I got news for you. Unless you're gunning for academic medicine and want a lab of your own, your attending salary in any given specialty will be the same no matter where you go to med school, and that includes DO schools.

As alluded to by @mkif5l86 this holds true for US medical schools as it assumes that one will do a residency, be licensed and be hired or open a practice as an attending physician. That is not a sure thing if one is attends med school off-shore

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

That is not a sure thing if one is attends med school off-shore

How so? Don't they get same salary if the do residency and fellowship in US?

 

[KnightDoc]

How so? Don't they get same salary if the do residency and fellowship in US?

Why are you stirring it up? Do you REALLY not know what she meant???

Just in case you're not kidding, let's parse her words. She didn't say they don't get the same salary, she said "that is not a sure thing if one is attends med school off-shore."

What is not a sure thing, you may ask? "It assumes that one will do a residency, be licensed and be hired or open a practice as an attending physician." Are you seriously questioning the statement it is not a sure thing that an off-shore med student will be able to "do a residency, be licensed and be hired or open a practice as an attending physician" in the US??? If so, I have a bridge in Grenada I'd like to sell you and your son!!!

Again -- why????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Why are you stirring it up? Do you REALLY not know what she meant???

Just in case you're not kidding, let's parse her words. She didn't say they don't get the same salary, she said "that is not a sure thing if one is attends med school off-shore."

What is not a sure thing, you may ask? "It assumes that one will do a residency, be licensed and be hired or open a practice as an attending physician." Are you seriously questioning the statement it is not a sure thing that an off-shore med student will be able to "do a residency, be licensed and be hired or open a practice as an attending physician" in the US??? If so, I have a bridge in Grenada I'd like to sell you and your son!!!

Again -- why????????????????????????????????????????????

Why do you always think I stir up things? I asked the question based on how I understood her statement.

 

[KnightDoc]

Why do you always think I stir up things? I asked the question based on how I understood her statement.

I don't know. Maybe because you appear to have a reasonable command of the English language, and her statement couldn't be more clear on its face???

Two sentences - #1 - you need post graduate training (residency), US license, and a job in the US. #2 - This isn't guaranteed if you attend med school off-shore. What is there to misunderstand?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If so, I have a bridge in Grenada I'd like to sell you and your son!!!

I am only interested in Golden Gate, Ben Franklin and Brooklyn/Manhattan bridges. Let me know if you can sell them.

 

[KnightDoc]

I am only interested in Golden Gate, Ben Franklin and Brooklyn/Manhattan bridges. Let know if you can sell them.

I am impressed by the reference to Ben Franklin. Unfortunately, I do not have title to that one, but can make you an excellent deal on either Walt Whitman, Betsy Ross, or, a serious deal on Commodore Barry, which nobody seems to like!

I am pretty sure you won't need Golden Gate from me. And, without realizing it, you probably need George Washington Bridge more than Brooklyn/Manhattan!!! I'll see what I can do for you on that one!!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I don't know. Maybe because you appear to have a reasonable command of the English language, and her statement couldn't be more clear on its face???

Two sentences - #1 - you need post graduate training (residency), US license, and a job in the US. #2 - This isn't guaranteed if you attend med school off-shore. What is there to misunderstand?

The way I see it nothing is guaranteed. 10% of US grads don't match and have to go thru SOAP. All N > 1 off-shore medical students I know matched this year. This is similar to often quoted statement that 60% of applicants don't get admission.

 

[KnightDoc]

The way I see it nothing is guaranteed. 10% of US grads don't match and have to go thru SOAP. All N > 1 off-shore medical students I know matched this year. This is similar to often quoted statement that 60% of applicants don't get admission.

You're going waaaaay off track here. She never said anything WAS guaranteed!! @Goro said rank didn't matter, other than for academic medicine. @LizzyM pointed out this was true for US, not so much for foreign. Even the US grads that SOAP eventually end up somewhere. So few US grads end up unlicensed and unemployed that it is not worth the time I just spent typing this to mention it. The same isn't true for many foreign grads. That's all. There is nothing to disagree with here.

 

[Goro]

As alluded to by @mkif5l86 this holds true for US medical schools as it assumes that one will do a residency, be licensed and be hired or open a practice as an attending physician. That is not a sure thing if one is attends med school off-shore

Yup, I meant US med schools.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

The only people who care about med school ranks (which are given by US Snooze and Worst Report) are starry-eyed pre-meds and med school Deans.

Brown is a low yield school because they highly favor their own UG students.

I wouldn't call Tufts a low yield school. If they are, it's because they get > 12,000 apps.

Rutgers is a state school that is super heavily biased against OOS applicants.

Any MD school will give you a fine medical education, whether it's John Burns or Harvard, U WA or U Miami, Albany or Yale.

And I got news for you. Unless you're gunning for academic medicine and want a lab of your own, your attending salary in any given specialty will be the same no matter where you go to med school, and that includes DO schools.

@Goro

Brown does not favor their undergraduate students, this is a MYTH which has been repeated so many times on SDN, that everybody accepts it as the truth now.

I have pasted the link below to brown Undergraduate pre-health advising which clearly shows that ONLY 10 students have been accepted from the Brown undergraduate program to their medical school in a total of 4 years ( 2-3 students per year).

It is true that Brown does have a large BS-MD program which then moves on to the MD portion, which makes it appear that lot of the students have done their UG at Brown (30-40%), but that has nothing to do with the MD application process for new applicants to MD school that OP is referring to. That concept of BS-MD students moving on to the MD class is no different than what is seen at Northwestern, Boston U, Virginia commonwealth etc, although their BS-MD programs are smaller than Brown.

Medical Admission Data Snapshot | Health Careers Advising

Medical schools where five or more Brown University graduates matriculated, 4-year sample

School	Number attending
Tufts	34
New York University	26
Mt. Sinai	21
University of Pennsylvania	19
University of Massachusetts	19
Boston University	19
Columbia	17
Yale	16
University of California -San Francisco (including joint program with Cal-Berkeley)	15
Harvard	14
Albert Einstein	14
SUNY-Downstate	12
University of Michigan	12
University of Miami	12
Cornell-Weill	11
Brown-Alpert*	10

 

[Goro]

I don't care.

Brown UG students of whatever stripe they are make up such a disproportionate number of the class that Brown is too hard to predict if nonBrownies are competitive.

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't care.

Brown UG students of whatever stripe they are make up such a disproportionate number of the class that Brown is too hard to predict if nonBrownies are competitive.

Actually, if you just back out the size of the BS/MD program, the analysis becomes exactly the same as at any other school!! Your lack of familiarity with their BS/MD program, and its size relative to the size of the MD class, does not change this fundamental truth. It's just math. If you think long and hard about it, you might realize that you need to find another place to park your trailer!!!

 

[PigsHaveWings]

I don't care.

Brown UG students of whatever stripe they are make up such a disproportionate number of the class that Brown is too hard to predict if nonBrownies are competitive.

I am sorry, with all due respect to you since you post a lot of useful information and stellar advice, this makes no sense.

If you apply the same logic to all medical schools which have a BS-MD program, you will have to make the same conclusion. Brown has 60 BS-MD, albany has 45, VCU and boston U have 30 , and there are another 20 of them which have about 25 BS-MD slots.

When somebody makes the statement Brown favors their own undergraduates and thus are a low yield school, everybody is assuming they are a low yield admission school which is completely wrong. Of the 86 students admitted to Brown every year for MD from undergraduates applying through the AMCAS, 83 of them have done their undergraduate in a school other than Brown. Those are really the only two numbers relevant to AMCAS applicants, how many seats every year and how many are admitted from outside. Does that number (96%) really count as a low yield school and make nonBrownies not competitive? That number of 83 OUTSIDE accepted matriculants per year is no different than Mayo clinic, stanford or university of chicago.

@EdgeTrimmer and @KnightDoc had made the right conclusions on a thread previously about this too. It is time, we stop repeating this, and lead applicants astray when the evidence quite clearly contradicts it.

 

[KnightDoc]

I am sorry, with all due respect to you since you post a lot of useful information and stellar advice, this makes no sense.

If you apply the same logic to all medical schools which have a BS-MD program, you will have to make the same conclusion. Brown has 60 BS-MD, albany has 45, VCU and boston U have 30 , and there are another 20 of them which have about 25 BS-MD slots.

When somebody makes the statement Brown favors their own undergraduates and thus are a low yield school, everybody is assuming they are a low yield admission school which is completely wrong. Of the 86 students admitted to Brown every year for MD from undergraduates applying through the AMCAS, 83 of them have done their undergraduate in a school other than Brown. Those are really the only two numbers relevant to AMCAS applicants, how many seats every year and how many are admitted from outside. Does that number (96%) really count as a low yield school? That number of 83 OUTSIDE accepted matriculants is no different than Mayo clinic, stanford or university of chicago.

@EdgeTrimmer and @KnightDoc had made the right conclusions on a thread previously about this too. It is time, we stop repeating this, and lead applicants astray when the evidence quite clearly contradicts it.

While @Goro is just wrong with respect to Brown being an incestuous trailer park, "low yield" is another concept altogether, and Brown definitely fits the definition.

"Low yield" within the meaning of the WARS system refers to schools that look very doable based on their stats, but are actually unreasonably difficult to get into. Brown fits this definition to a "T." Its median GPAs (cGPA 3.83, sGPA 3.79) and MCAT (516) seem very achievable for a somewhat above average applicant, and it is an Ivy League school, after all.

If you don't know what you are dealing with, you don't realize that nearly half the class is blocked off for the BS/MD program. As a result, you apply to a school that seemingly has 144 seats available, and then find yourself as one of nearly 8,000 applicants vying for one of 86 seats. The very definition of "low yield"! While Harvard has somewhat higher stats, it has slightly fewer applicants competing for twice as many actual spots in the class.

So, believe it or not, assuming you have a decent application, you actually have a better chance to get into Harvard, at least based on available seats/applicants. And, yes, I realize Harvard has an insanely high yield that skews the numbers somewhat, but still! THAT'S what makes Brown low yield, despite its seeming accessibility.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

While @Goro is just wrong with respect to Brown being an incestuous trailer park, "low yield" is another concept altogether, and Brown definitely fits the definition.

"Low yield" within the meaning of the WARS system refers to schools that look very doable based on their stats, but are actually unreasonably difficult to get into. Brown fits this definition to a "T." Its median GPAs (cGPA 3.83, sGPA 3.79) and MCAT (516) seem very achievable for a somewhat above average applicant, and it is an Ivy League school, after all.

If you don't know what you are dealing with, you don't realize that nearly half the class is blocked off for the BS/MD program. As a result, you apply to a school that seemingly has 144 seats available, and then find yourself as one of nearly 8,000 applicants vying for one of 86 seats. The very definition of "low yield"! While Harvard has somewhat higher stats, it has slightly fewer applicants competing for twice as many actual spots in the class.

So, believe it or not, assuming you have a decent application, you actually have a better chance to get into Harvard, at least based on available seats/applicants. And, yes, I realize Harvard has an insanely high yield that skews the numbers somewhat, but still! THAT'S what makes Brown low yield, despite its seeming accessibility.

I agree with you completely that it is a low yield school similar to other schools in that range of rating, and probably slightly worse than some of the other similar ranked schools.

You hit the nail on the head, that lot of applicants are applying to Brown based on the total number of seats available, wrongly assuming there are 146 slots, rather than the 86 available. This is probably true for other schools which have a large number of BS-MD or MD-PHD or MD-MHA/MPH positions

The other issue, is that some of the top notch schools (ucsf etc) do screen prior to sending secondaries, not sure if the total number of applicants reported in the MSAR, by some of these top notch schools, are primary applications or secondary applications.

 

[KnightDoc]

I agree with you completely that it is a low yield school similar to other schools in that range of rating, and probably slightly worse than some of the other similar ranked schools.

You hit the nail on the head, that lot of applicants are applying to Brown based on the total number of seats available, wrongly assuming there are 146 slots, rather than the 86 available. This is probably true for other schools which have a large number of BS-MD or MD-PHD or MD-MHA/MPH positions

The other issue, is that some of the top notch schools (ucsf etc) do screen prior to sending secondaries, not sure if the total number of applicants reported in the MSAR, by some of these top notch schools, are primary applications or secondary applications.

I have the same exact question about primary vs. secondary, since I learned here that some schools experience as much as a 20% attrition between the two, and it would certainly boost their numbers to claim the former even though that's not an accurate reflection of competitiveness for anyone who submits a secondary if 20% of the pool take themselves out by not submitting on.

I'm actually focused on schools that don't screen, though. Now that I think about it, it probably is fair to quote primaries as the number reported because, for schools like UCSF, failure to receive a secondary is every bit as much a rejection as receiving an R after submitting a secondary.

 

[KnightDoc]

Brown students really are living the dream. Easier curriculum compared to other ivies and top schools like Uchciago, Berkley, UCLA, A med school that actually truly prioritizes their own home applicants add in the ivy league prestige. Wow, I can only dream.

Except they don't. Go back and reread the thread.

Brown sent 10, I repeat, 10 students to its med school over a 4 year period, outside of its BS/MD program. ALL BS/MD programs send their students to their affiliated med school. Nothing special here, other than the fact that the BS/MD program is so large that it takes an unusual and disproportionate number of the total MD seats.

This does absolutely nothing for ordinary Brown UGs who are not part of the program, other than turn their premed dreams of attending Brown's med school into a nightmare, since that number of 10, let me repeat, 10 over 4 years is FAR below the comparable number at probably every single MD program in the country that is part of a university with a UG school, and certainly far below the comparable number at every Ivy MD program.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Actually, if you just back out the size of the BS/MD program, the analysis becomes exactly the same as at any other school!! Your lack of familiarity with their BS/MD program, and its size relative to the size of the MD class, does not change this fundamental truth. It's just math. If you think long and hard about it, you might realize that you need to find another place to park your trailer!!!

Didn't I say this few days back? May be no where else to park the trailer

 

[KnightDoc]

Didn't I say this few days back? May be no where else to park the trailer

???? I don't remember. If so, I am subconsciously copying you, just like you copy me by asking about fewer IIs due to virtual.

 

[Goro]

I am sorry, with all due respect to you since you post a lot of useful information and stellar advice, this makes no sense.

If you apply the same logic to all medical schools which have a BS-MD program, you will have to make the same conclusion. Brown has 60 BS-MD, albany has 45, VCU and boston U have 30 , and there are another 20 of them which have about 25 BS-MD slots.

When somebody makes the statement Brown favors their own undergraduates and thus are a low yield school, everybody is assuming they are a low yield admission school which is completely wrong. Of the 86 students admitted to Brown every year for MD from undergraduates applying through the AMCAS, 83 of them have done their undergraduate in a school other than Brown. Those are really the only two numbers relevant to AMCAS applicants, how many seats every year and how many are admitted from outside. Does that number (96%) really count as a low yield school and make nonBrownies not competitive? That number of 83 OUTSIDE accepted matriculants per year is no different than Mayo clinic, stanford or university of chicago.

@EdgeTrimmer and @KnightDoc had made the right conclusions on a thread previously about this too. It is time, we stop repeating this, and lead applicants astray when the evidence quite clearly contradicts it.

You don't call taking 60 + students into a class of 140 + highly favored???

That's the highest percentage of any medical school accept University of Missouri Kansas City

While Tufts may take 34 of their undergraduates, that's for class of 200 seats

 

[Goro]

Brown students really are living the dream. Easier curriculum compared to other ivies and top schools like Uchciago, Berkley, UCLA, A med school that actually truly prioritizes their own home applicants add in the ivy league prestige. Wow, I can only dream.

How is it an easier curriculum??

 

[PigsHaveWings]

You don't call taking 60 + students into a class of 140 + highly favored???

That's the highest percentage of any medical school accept University of Missouri Kansas City

While Tufts may take 34 of their undergraduates, that's for class of 200 seats

I am not sure, how I can explain this any better.

The class of BS-MD of 60 students is in a complete different pathway, which has nothing to do with the regular MD pathway. The AMCAS applicants are not competing with the BS-MD students, and the BS-MD students applied to the same class 4 years ago and are predestined to be part of the MD program , at the same time these MD applicants were applying for their undergraduate colleges while in HIGH SCHOOL . As I mentioned before, if you use the same logic, every school which has a BS-MD program will appear to be taking their own undergraduate students, granted Brown is one of the largest BS-MD programs.

When the AMCAS students are applying, they are applying for a pool of 86 students ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER REGULAR UNDERGRADUATE BROWN STUDENTS. For this pool of admissions, only 3 students are being taken from Brown UG and 83 are taken from the outside pool. I am going to quote @KnightDoc here who expressed this beautifully " This does absolutely nothing for ordinary Brown UGs who are not part of the BS-MD program, other than turn their premed dreams of attending Brown's med school into a nightmare, since that number of 10, let me repeat, 10 over 4 years is FAR below the comparable number at probably every single MD program in the country that is part of a university with a UG school, and certainly far below the comparable number at every Ivy MD program. "

Tufts certainly takes a far higher percentage of their own undergraduates , if they are taking 34 of their undergrads for a class of 200 students.

 

[KnightDoc]

You don't call taking 60 + students into a class of 140 + highly favored???

That's the highest percentage of any medical school accept University of Missouri Kansas City

While Tufts may take 34 of their undergraduates, that's for class of 200 seats

UMKC is the same thing -- BS/MD. Forget it and back it out. It's a separate program, where decisions are made when applicants are in HS, and it has NOTHING to do with the admission process we are all talking about here. In fact, at UMKC, the BS/MD program is the whole ball of wax, and the only seats available for regular admission are those vacated by BS/MD students who withdraw, so it's really not worth talking about here since it's a tiny class for regular admission.

If it helps, think about it as two separate tracks -- a 60 student track that has nothing to do with us, and an 80 student track that takes maybe 3 students a year from Brown. Does that help you compare it to NYU, that has around 100 seats, with no BS/MD program???? How many NYU UGs does NYU take?

Why do you INSIST on including BS/MD with everyone else? It's a totally separate process!!!! Those seats are just not available to us, just like the 300 seats over and above your school's actual enrollment are also not available to applicants. BROWN DOES NOT FAVOR ITS OWN UGS!!!!!!

It has a program that occupies around half the seats in its med school, and then it has around 80 seats for which it runs an admission process through AMCAS every year, just like every school that has a class of a little under 100 matriculants, EXCEPT, Brown admits very FEW of its OWN UGs through this process, since it already has around 60 Brown UG matriculants through the BS/MD program. Your stubborn refusal to recognize this is unbelievable.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

How is it an easier curriculum??

Brown is one of the few universities in the country which has something called an 'open curriculum". This is perceived as making it easier for students, to not take rigorous courses in areas which they don't like, and some education experts believe it leads to a higher GPA.

The Open Curriculum

Brown’s flexible yet rigorous approach to education pushes undergraduates to be deeply creative thinkers, intellectual risk-takers and entrepreneurial problem-solvers.

www.brown.edu

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Why do you INSIST on including BS/MD with everyone else? It's a totally separate process!!!! Those seats are just not available to us, just like the 300 seats over and above your schooYour stubborn refusal to recognize this is unbelievable.

I don't understand either. Brown BSMD is there for a long time. My only conclusion is @Goro can't let go of Alabama trailer park joke

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't understand either. Brown BSMD is there for a long time. My only conclusion is @Goro can't let go of Alabama trailer park joke

Yeah, and for a long time he has looked at it the same way, apparently unchallenged.

Whatever! He probably thinks we are a bunch of clueless premeds (and their edge trimmer parents ), while at least a few of us think he is an out of touch old timer. Everything is out here, and people can read it and decide for themselves.

Ultimately, does it really matter whether Brown is a trailer park or just a very low yield borderline mid tier school? It's just one of many applications for whoever decides to take a shot. Whether @Goro thinks it's a foolish application due to inbreeding or I think it's a foolish application because the stats are deceptively low (due to their being diluted by so many people having lower stats due to their guaranteed acceptance, that those who get in regular admission probably having much higher stats than those reported), while the odds of acceptance are way lower than they would seem since the number of open seat is a little more than half of what they appear to be, either way it's a very low yield application.

 

[Goro]

I don't understand either. Brown BSMD is there for a long time. My only conclusion is @Goro can't let go of Alabama trailer park joke

Look, more than half of the seats are reserved for people from Brown. Therefore they have a bias for their own.

I don't care what the pathways are it reduces the number of available seats for people to apply to. That makes Brown hard to advise on whether or not to apply to.

 

[KnightDoc]

Look, more than half of the seats are reserved for people from Brown. Therefore they have a bias for their own.

I don't care what the pathways are it reduces the number of available seats for people to apply to. That makes Brown hard to advise on whether or not to apply to.

No, 50 something out of 144 actually isn't anywhere close to more than half. It's not a bias for their own in regular admission -- it's a dedicated program separate and apart from regular AMCAS admission. In any event, is Mayo hard to advise? It has 102 seats that aren't reserved for BS/MD. Is Vandy hard to advise? It has 97 seats that aren't reserved for BS/MD. Is Stanford hard to advise? It has 90 seats not reserved for BS/MD. Is UChicago hard to advise? It has 90 seats that aren't reserved for BS/MD.

So why the hell is Brown hard to advise with 80 something seats that aren't reserved for BS/MD? Why do you allow yourself to be distracted by a parallel, defined process that blocks off a relatively fixed number of seats from an otherwise relatively large class? The number of remaining seats are comparable to a number of schools, as I just demonstrated, and, somehow, your whole raison d'etre here is to advise on those other schools, as well as others, and you manage to do so effectively, with no problems whatsoever.

You either don't fully understand how a totally separate admission track works, or can't get past some bias you apparently have against such programs. Not caring what the pathways are, and not looking at how many seats are remaining while concluding that any reduction in the number of available seats makes a school difficult to advise on seems extremely uninformed.

The mere existence of the Brown BS/MD program has ZERO impact on regular admission, other than the obvious blocking off of the requisite number of seats. But, if the number of remaining seats are comparable to a number of other schools, as is the case here, how can the existence of the direct admit program have any impact on your ability to advise on regular admissions?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Looks like someone need