How do you conduct wet-lab research with just an MD?

[Alakazam123]

MD/PhD is a very competitive program, no doubt, and it is more likely that one DOESN'T get in than it is that they do. In such a situation, how can an MD start a research project and collaborate with PhD's to run a project? How to make sure I am taken seriously despite my lack of PhD which is exclusively research oriented?

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[Goro]

MD/PhD is a very competitive program, no doubt, and it is more likely that one DOESN'T get in than it is that they do. In such a situation, how can an MD start a research project and collaborate with PhD's to run a project? How to make sure I am taken seriously despite my lack of PhD which is exclusively research oriented?

You can provide clinical samples to them and let them do all the work, then sit back and get your name on a paper. Don't laugh...this gets done a lot. I'm grateful to clinical collaborators without whom I wouldn't be able to do anything.

But if you're asking "How can I come into the lab and do bench research"? you probably won't have time.

BUT, think about doing a research fellowship (like at NIH, NCI)..there are plenty of MD researchers out there.

 

[LoGo]

As above, you’re basically a bio sample resource.

If you’re talking about running a lab yourself, you can’t (or shouldn’t). Do an extended research fellowship or PhD down the road during or after residency if that’s what you want. It’s the only way you will properly learn how to do good science.

 

[Alakazam123]

You can provide clinical samples to them and let them do all the work, then sit back and get your name on a paper. Don't laugh...this gets done a lot. I'm grateful to clinical collaborators without whom I wouldn't be able to do anything.

But if you're asking "How can I come into the lab and do bench research"? you probably won't have time.

BUT, think about doing a research fellowship (like at NIH, NCI)..there are plenty of MD researchers out there.

If I have completed an MD and residency, AND kept up to date with research in my field, can I approach a PhD and basically say: "Hello Dr. So-and-So, I have been contemplating this idea for some time, and here's my basis. Would you be willing to work with me on it?"

Furthermore, is it possible for MD's to begin a research startup company, like a biotech organization?

 

[Goro]

If I have completed an MD and residency, AND kept up to date with research in my field, can I approach a PhD and basically say: "Hello Dr. So-and-So, I have been contemplating this idea for some time, and here's my basis. Would you be willing to work with me on it?"

Furthermore, is it possible for MD's to begin a research startup company, like a biotech organization?

With what money?

 

[Alakazam123]

With what money?

For the company or the lab?

For the company, I suppose whatever funding or seed capital I can get...just like a PhD may create start-up. For the research, I'm assuming through collaboration with the PhD.

 

[Goro]

For the lab...

For the research, I'm assuming through collaboration with the PhD.

Again, with what money? My grad students can burn through $1000/month in the lab just by breathing.

 

[doc05]

For the company or the lab?

For the company, I suppose whatever funding or seed capital I can get...just like a PhD may create start-up. For the research, I'm assuming through collaboration with the PhD.

But with what money? It takes millions to get started. And If you have no track record in either business or in research, you won't get funded.

 

[Alakazam123]

Again, with what money? My grad students can burn through $1000/month in the lab just by breathing.

Alright, I cry uncle. Please tell me how to go about my plans...

 

[Goro]

Alright, I cry uncle. Please tell me how to go about my plans...

Umm, first get into a research lab so you can see how things are really done?

Look, research money is scarce, and really hard to get. Reagents cost money. Lots of money. Let's say you want to test the effect of X upon the production of osteopontin in terminal renal cancer patients. OK, let's ignore all the IRB stuff and you collect 5 ml of blood from, say 80 patients, and 80 controls. You then walk into a lab with the red top vials of serum. You can do an ELISA doing 40 people, in duplicate, plus standards, on a single 96 well plate. So we need two plates (and this is assuming you are looking only at a single value of X).

A typical ELISA kit with a single plate, ready to go, will be at least $300-600. So for starters, you need $600-1200, and that's not including any other supply or reagent, like TBS-T for washing, and al the pipette tips you going to need.

Frankly, I can't think of a single PI who would let somebody walk in and be allowed to just run around loose to do their own project. You wanna work in my lab, you work on MY projects!

 

[Alakazam123]

Umm, first get into a research lab so you can see how things are really done?

Look, research money is scarce, and really hard to get. Reagents cost money. Lots of money. Let's say you want to test the effect of X upon the production of osteopontin in terminal renal cancer patients. OK, let's ignore all the IRB stuff and you collect 5 ml of blood from, say 80 patients, and 80 controls. You then walk into a lab with the red top vials of serum. You can do an ELISA doing 40 people, in duplicate, plus standards, on a single 96 well plate. So we need two plates (and this is assuming you are looking only at a single value of X).

A typical ELISA kit with a single plate, ready to go, will be at least $300-600. So for starters, you need $600-1200, and that's not including any other supply or reagent, like TBS-T for washing, and al the pipette tips you going to need.

Frankly, I can't think of a single PI who would let somebody walk in and be allowed to just run around loose to do their own project. You wanna work in my lab, you work on MY projects!

1. I tried 4 times to see a project through as an undergrad (unsuccessfully). I was kicked out of each lab because of my slow learning pace. Now I realize I should've picked labs which were more tailored towards undergrads (bc most of the ones I went into either had no grad students or undergrads or only grad students).

2. You're probably thinking: Why are you even bothering to do research with a string of failures?
My answer is the following: I am stubborn. I want to do research, and I know I have potential within me. I get tears in my eyes thinking about my failures, but I don't want to be that astronaut that didn't make the Apollo mission and had to stand by watching the thing rocket take off (though I certainly feel like that)

3. Apologies if I was not clear. I did not mean to imply that I'm going to waltz in and boss the PI around. What I was wondering truly, was if I had an idea after extensive reading of literature, that I'd sit down with a PhD who was doing research in the relevant field, and ask him/her what their opinion was of my idea and if they'd be willing to help me out, and that I'd take care of the clinical aspect of the work, and perhaps some of the wet-lab work (if they don't want me to fine).

4. As for my start-up company, I was planning on trying to find PhD's again who perhaps were interested in a starting proposal and working with me to get funding and get the start-up rolling (like Northwest Biotherapeutics, Amgen, etc.).

 

[DerpStore]

Doing wet lab research is highly encouraged at certain IM fellowships (esp oncology, allergy, rheum) at the more prestigious institutions, as well as in the middle of general surgery residencies. During this time you are typically funded under by your department (generally a T32) Based on your track record during fellowship (publications), you can apply for the K award series of grants which is restricted to those with MD or MD/PhD, which is a sort of mentored-training grant as a bridge to independent funding (i.e. the R01). Usually the difficult part is transitioning from the junior faculty, K-awardee into the R01, for which the payline has been hovering around 10-12% of submissions awarded, which is extremely competitive. Keep in mind you are now competing against those who perform lab research full time (the PhDs), and so will take a huge cut in your clinical work and your salary to make it. At this point, many choose to either enter industry, or transition to a clinical role. From the faculty I have spoken to about this, many of whom are MD only, the first step is to find an excellent residency, ideally something non-procedural (IM, Peds).

Look at the faculty at top 20 IM departments, many of them are doing incredible basic research with only an MD. The PhD is mostly helpful because you don't have to worry about loans when you are making less money as a researcher. By the time the MD/PhD gets back into the lab, 6 years after defending their thesis (2 years clinical rotations+3 years IM residency or more + 1-2 years clinical fellowship), the lab stuff has passed them by and your skills are not that dissimilar.

 

[Goro]

3. Apologies if I was not clear. I did not mean to imply that I'm going to waltz in and boss the PI around. What I was wondering truly, was if I had an idea after extensive reading of literature, that I'd sit down with a PhD who was doing research in the relevant field, and ask him/her what their opinion was of my idea and if they'd be willing to help me out, and that I'd take care of the clinical aspect of the work, and perhaps some of the wet-lab work (if they don't want me to fine).

Honestly, as a clinician, your best bet will be with the clinical side (as in supplying samples, or patients to the lab so they can be bled, measured, fed/not fed etc). No lab is going to jump on a project to some guy who comes in simply with an idea. They're certainly not going have some untrained person come in and start having them doing lab work [and I can't sugar coat this], especially, someone who is going to need some hand holding. This isn't about you and your self-esteem, either.

As mentioned above, your best opportunity to do research will be as a medical student and resident. And fellow, too.

 

[Alakazam123]

Doing wet lab research is highly encouraged at certain IM fellowships (esp oncology, allergy, rheum) at the more prestigious institutions, as well as in the middle of general surgery residencies. During this time you are typically funded under by your department (generally a T32) Based on your track record during fellowship (publications), you can apply for the K award series of grants which is restricted to those with MD or MD/PhD, which is a sort of mentored-training grant as a bridge to independent funding (i.e. the R01). Usually the difficult part is transitioning from the junior faculty, K-awardee into the R01, for which the payline has been hovering around 10-12% of submissions awarded, which is extremely competitive. Keep in mind you are now competing against those who perform lab research full time (the PhDs), and so will take a huge cut in your clinical work and your salary to make it. At this point, many choose to either enter industry, or transition to a clinical role. From the faculty I have spoken to about this, many of whom are MD only, the first step is to find an excellent residency, ideally something non-procedural (IM, Peds).

Look at the faculty at top 20 IM departments, many of them are doing incredible basic research with only an MD. The PhD is mostly helpful because you don't have to worry about loans when you are making less money as a researcher. By the time the MD/PhD gets back into the lab, 6 years after defending their thesis (2 years clinical rotations+3 years IM residency or more + 1-2 years clinical fellowship), the lab stuff has passed them by and your skills are not that dissimilar.

Can you complete your post-doc work in 2-3 years?

Also, can you skip your intern year and go right into the residency for your specialty?

 

[Redpancreas]

I actually had a question about how to do (not conduct) this as an MD resident. During interview season, one of the PDs mentioned a candidate at his less competitive program matching a competitive field at a top 10 place. He said that the applicant didn't initially look like the applicant who would do that, but that he put in the work with mice, wetlab, etc. on top of his residency duties. Does anyone how common it is for residents to do wet lab stuff in residency and who you have to approach in general?

 

[DerpStore]

I actually had a question about how to do (not conduct) this as an MD resident. During interview season, one of the PDs mentioned a candidate at his less competitive program matching a competitive field at a top 10 place. He said that the applicant didn't initially look like the applicant who would do that, but that he put in the work with mice, wetlab, etc. on top of his residency duties. Does anyone how common it is for residents to do wet lab stuff in residency and who you have to approach in general?

For IM, ACGME only allows I think 3 months total research time during your three years of residency. Not really enough time to do any meaningful "wet lab" project, but I suppose it is doable in conjunction with the light outpatient months working evenings and weekends. You would approach a mentor at your institution or nearby who did work that you'd find interesting, same as any other research project.

 

[DerpStore]

Can you complete your post-doc work in 2-3 years?

Also, can you skip your intern year and go right into the residency for your specialty?

No, you can't skip intern year... do you not want to become a doctor? Residency looks the same for most people, research or not. Fellowship is where the research that will start your career usually starts. There is the PSTP/short track for IM, in which you do 2 years of IM instead of 3, and then an extra year of research in fellowship instead. Mostly reserved for MD/PhDs but attainable if you are a very competitive MD only applicant with substantial research experience during/before med school.