Kerowyn

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I'm just getting started in the whole process of applying for residency, and I'm wondering how you know which programs are good programs? I see all the time in SDN people saying "X is a better program than Y", but how do you know that?

Obviously there's word of mouth and general reputation, but I can't search FRIEDA by "good rep". I know I can talk to people at those programs directly, but that's pretty cumbersome.

I have seen "Top 20" list mentioned, but I'm not sure what list that's referring to.
 

Baylock45

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I'm just getting started in the whole process of applying for residency, and I'm wondering how you know which programs are good programs? I see all the time in SDN people saying "X is a better program than Y", but how do you know that?

Obviously there's word of mouth and general reputation, but I can't search FRIEDA by "good rep". I know I can talk to people at those programs directly, but that's pretty cumbersome.

I have seen "Top 20" list mentioned, but I'm not sure what list that's referring to.
Most people on this board wait for a guy who did his medical school at SUNY Downstate and a medicine residency and hematology/oncology fellowship in Portland, Oregon to offer his insights on programs, as he apparently interviewed at several of these places 8 or 9 years ago.
 

obiwan

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you know you can't submit your ROL until its been blessed by our SDN moderators...

but to the poster, a lot of it does come down to perceived perception of a program among other things like research opportunities, competitiveness of fellowship placement, resident vs fellow driven training, formal teaching etc etc etc.
 

jdh71

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Most people on this board wait for a guy who did his medical school at SUNY Downstate and a medicine residency and hematology/oncology fellowship in Portland, Oregon to offer his insights on programs, as he apparently interviewed at several of these places 8 or 9 years ago.
Give us your opinion. Let's hear it.
 

P Diddy

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I'm just getting started in the whole process of applying for residency, and I'm wondering how you know which programs are good programs? I see all the time in SDN people saying "X is a better program than Y", but how do you know that?

Obviously there's word of mouth and general reputation, but I can't search FRIEDA by "good rep". I know I can talk to people at those programs directly, but that's pretty cumbersome.

I have seen "Top 20" list mentioned, but I'm not sure what list that's referring to.
More important is knowing what you want out of the program. 'Good' means different things to different people. If you want to go into private practice vs academics, or want easy vs rigorous training, your list of good programs will change significantly.

p diddy
 

jdh71

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You mean like Wash U = U Chicago = Cornell > MSSM = Mayo > Dartmouth = Tufts?

:barf:
Are you mad??

You seem mad.

Its krimmis, don't be mad.
 

amine2086

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Most people on this board wait for a guy who did his medical school at SUNY Downstate and a medicine residency and hematology/oncology fellowship in Portland, Oregon to offer his insights on programs, as he apparently interviewed at several of these places 8 or 9 years ago.
Be nice or get lost. They are just trying to help. The worth of any advice you get on an unanimous free forum is what you pay for it. So make sure to utilize the organ located superior to the brainstem.
 
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Kerowyn

Kerowyn

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More important is knowing what you want out of the program. 'Good' means different things to different people. If you want to go into private practice vs academics, or want easy vs rigorous training, your list of good programs will change significantly.

p diddy

Things like work hours or location I can figure out from the program's website. What's hard to figure out is which programs produce quality physicians. It all seems to be word of mouth.

Are there any objective criteria that I can look at to help me figure out whether a program is a good training site?
 

HelpPleaseMD

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look at where you will do your rotations. does the place have a county hospital? a VA? seeing zebras and critically ill patients with every disease in the world is all good and all, but you also need a place with enough bread and butter cases to feel comfortable dealing with the more complex cases.

you want a place that has good patient volume, friendly and intelligent residents (you will be learning from them) and depending on what you want to do ... a place with easy access to research and publications.

I personally hate to deal with private attendings, so I also look for a place staffed mostly by home physicians
 

jdh71

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Things like work hours or location I can figure out from the program's website. What's hard to figure out is which programs produce quality physicians. It all seems to be word of mouth.

Are there any objective criteria that I can look at to help me figure out whether a program is a good training site?
There is no objective criteria.
 
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IMPD

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The lack of objective criteria is what sets off such a frenzy every year in asking "WAMC" , the "Ranking Thread" etc. etc.

People who like objective criteria can be reassured that you can measure your goodness through a large number of numerical metrics once you're done with training. These range from $take home, #of publications in "high impact" journals, bonus from "quality" incentives, RVU productivity metrics etc. etc.

None of this, needless to say, says squat about whether you are a good doctor or teacher.

It is, however, undeniably objective.

Just as in marriage, "goodness of fit" is probably the best predictor in this screwed-up-world of your chances to be, dare I say it, content.
 

P Diddy

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Things like work hours or location I can figure out from the program's website. What's hard to figure out is which programs produce quality physicians. It all seems to be word of mouth.

Are there any objective criteria that I can look at to help me figure out whether a program is a good training site?
We don't yet have a national registry where one can analyze a physician's performance (patient satisfaction, O/E mortality, articles published, mustache/eyelash length) vs their peers, standardized for patient mix.

In lieu of this, identify physicians at your institution you respect and want to be like, and find out where they trained. Then track down all of their residency classmates and make sure they are also well trained, to assure that your index cases were not outliers. Then track down all their classmates one class above and below to ensure the program didn't get lucky that year.

I wouldn't stress too much about it. All you need to do is ensure that the program you match at will allow you to acquire the skills you need to prepare you for your career. No matter what your aspired career, unless quite esoteric (ie aerospace medicine), many programs will fit the bill. I think it's more important to find an environment you can thrive in (culture, climate, hot wo(men)) and concentrate your search on defining programs with that environment.

p diddy
 

Jorts

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I wouldn't stress too much about it. All you need to do is ensure that the program you match at will allow you to acquire the skills you need to prepare you for your career. No matter what your aspired career, unless quite esoteric (ie aerospace medicine), many programs will fit the bill. I think it's more important to find an environment you can thrive in (culture, climate, hot wo(men)) and concentrate your search on defining programs with that environment.

p diddy
Which residency programs have the hottest women?
 
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Which residency programs have the hottest women?
Would like to know too...probably the mid-low tiered programs...the top tiered are all filled with gunners who don't know/don't care to take of themselves cosmetic wise
 

Jorts

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In the program or just in the area?
Both. Hospital on a college campus has to be a plus. I've seen a lot of good looking women interviewing at good places, but most of them are already snatched up.
 

Gastrapathy

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For OP, best depends on your goals. If you want a competitive fellowship, you should go to a competitive university program if possible. Otherwise, id recommend somewhere with sunshine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

jdh71

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The only place where the women are better looking than LA is Miami. Otherwise LA can't really be beat.
 
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IM2GI

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I'm just getting started in the whole process of applying for residency, and I'm wondering how you know which programs are good programs? I see all the time in SDN people saying "X is a better program than Y", but how do you know that?

Obviously there's word of mouth and general reputation, but I can't search FRIEDA by "good rep". I know I can talk to people at those programs directly, but that's pretty cumbersome.

I have seen "Top 20" list mentioned, but I'm not sure what list that's referring to.
You just google "top internal medicine residency program rankings" and click on the studentdoctor links. Then the same 2-4 people post and shape the landscape of medicine program "rankings"

Either that or go off US News and World Report. They really have their finger on the pulse of medicine rankings.
 

jdh71

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You just google "top internal medicine residency program rankings" and click on the studentdoctor links. Then the same 2-4 people post and shape the landscape of medicine program "rankings"

Either that or go off US News and World Report. They really have their finger on the pulse of medicine rankings.
This is the kind of passive-aggression that has always annoyed me about people who go into internal medicine.

I think I speak for @gutonc , and some of the others who have been more participating in the past year or see like @Instatewaiter and @skinMD that none of us think we have some special "lock" on medicine rankings, and have always maintained that any rankings done here is more of a gestalt of the way academic programs are sort of seen - no offense. We've also always maintained that a big list and rankings of programs is probably horse****. There are a few places we all agree are "elite" in the IM and everything else falls out in a fashion we can all disagree a bit about, but no one thinks the University of Arkansas is a "better" academic spot than Colombia, AND no offense, as in ZERO, to the University of Arkansas, which I don't know much about, but I'm sure is a fine enough program.

What I would say to everyone who just likes to bitch and moan plus or minus troll the forum plus or minus making snipey passive-agressive comments every once in awhile would be participate in here in a legit way. You like "your list" better? Then post it. Want contribute to conversation in a positive way then do it.

I know I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to take a step back from this forum where I've been posting for the better part of 6 years now doing my best to help those who found themselves in similar situation to myself when I was applying, that is I knew next to nothing about which programs were considered "good" or "reaches" or which programs wouldn't even look at my application without an AOA designation or an elite medical school pedigree. And I think I've done a reasonable job with this over the years. It's just one man's opinion on some things, but in other areas I give nothing but rock solid advice. And over the course of the last few years all I've been getting is a lot more disrespect from folks. Though usually never directly to my face. Dislike my style? My opinion? My alpha attitude? Then why don't we have a conversation. But I'd be very happy to step back, but no one else has stepped up to the plate to really help out. All you guys want to do around here is take and bitch and moan. Well. We have enough of that in the world, and you can do what you want, but it's just not helpful and nowhere near as funny as some of you think it is.
 

IM2GI

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This is the kind of passive-aggression that has always annoyed me about people who go into internal medicine.

I think I speak for @gutonc , and some of the others who have been more participating in the past year or see like @Instatewaiter and @skinMD that none of us think we have some special "lock" on medicine rankings, and have always maintained that any rankings done here is more of a gestalt of the way academic programs are sort of seen - no offense. We've also always maintained that a big list and rankings of programs is probably horse****. There are a few places we all agree are "elite" in the IM and everything else falls out in a fashion we can all disagree a bit about, but no one thinks the University of Arkansas is a "better" academic spot than Colombia, AND no offense, as in ZERO, to the University of Arkansas, which I don't know much about, but I'm sure is a fine enough program.

What I would say to everyone who just likes to bitch and moan plus or minus troll the forum plus or minus making snipey passive-agressive comments every once in awhile would be participate in here in a legit way. You like "your list" better? Then post it. Want contribute to conversation in a positive way then do it.

I know I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to take a step back from this forum where I've been posting for the better part of 6 years now doing my best to help those who found themselves in similar situation to myself when I was applying, that is I knew next to nothing about which programs were considered "good" or "reaches" or which programs wouldn't even look at my application without an AOA designation or an elite medical school pedigree. And I think I've done a reasonable job with this over the years. It's just one man's opinion on some things, but in other areas I give nothing but rock solid advice. And over the course of the last few years all I've been getting is a lot more disrespect from folks. Though usually never directly to my face. Dislike my style? My opinion? My alpha attitude? Then why don't we have a conversation. But I'd be very happy to step back, but no one else has stepped up to the plate to really help out. All you guys want to do around here is take and bitch and moan. Well. We have enough of that in the world, and you can do what you want, but it's just not helpful and nowhere near as funny as some of you think it is.
I think I have been providing good advice in most of my posts, with a healthy dose of sarcasm.

I think you provide a valuable service and I agree with acknowledging the limitations and shortcomings of coming up with rankings. I have no desire to start an internet argument with you and was not trying to take a shot at you :) The fact remains that when you google IM rankings, the most results are from this site and from a select number of people.

I think part of the problem is that most of us only interviewed at 10-15 programs for IM, and usually somewhat geographically restricted. I have no idea about a lot of these smaller programs that people want to know about. If you really do, then hats off to you for knowing a lot about a diverse number of programs.

From someone who has not followed this forum closely, it just seems odd when people want to know which program is "better" and then post 2-5 very well regarded programs. They want someone else to choose for them, instead of realizing your life and career is what you put into it.

Carry-on and rank away, as long as everyone reading this forum knows there is a big asterisk next to everyones rankings.
 

jdh71

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I think I have been providing good advice in most of my posts, with a healthy dose of sarcasm.

I think you provide a valuable service and I agree with acknowledging the limitations and shortcomings of coming up with rankings. I have no desire to start an internet argument with you and was not trying to take a shot at you :) The fact remains that when you google IM rankings, the most results are from this site and from a select number of people.

I think part of the problem is that most of us only interviewed at 10-15 programs for IM, and usually somewhat geographically restricted. I have no idea about a lot of these smaller programs that people want to know about. If you really do, then hats off to you for knowing a lot about a diverse number of programs.

From someone who has not followed this forum closely, it just seems odd when people want to know which program is "better" and then post 2-5 very well regarded programs. They want someone else to choose for them, instead of realizing your life and career is what you put into it.

Carry-on and rank away, as long as everyone reading this forum knows there is a bit asterisk next to everyones rankings.
I don't do big rank lists. None of us do. In fact it's a big joke around here every time it comes up. I will tell people who want some advice about how some people see a set of programs by opinion on how I see them, and usually, it's not that far removed from the way others do, which tends to emphasize some of the gestalt, and only do that when it's a list that really does seem to need some clarification. You'll never seem me responding to a help me rank post when all the programs are very well regarded by all nationally, for the reasons you big up. It's not like a career path is going to be too terribly divergent coming from Hopkins vs Duke or even Emory or Northwestern - if we think about it like a chess game and there are specific goals in the candidate's mind, then maybe some distinction is important but it almost never is.

I may have misunderstood your post. I'm just getting a bit tired of too many people complaining and then not doing anything about it. And I suppose my post wasn't necessarily about YOU even if I quoted you.
 
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jdh71, I think your advice on these forums is well regarded. My strategy has been to talk with advisors at my school and then ask on here, and 90% of the time there is good agreement (which I think speaks to the quality of advice given here). Disagreement is also very helpful, because there does NOT exist a consensus ranking, and a person's opinion is very much dependent on where they trained, their peers' opinions, residents they've seen from that program, etc.

After all, "reputation" might be defined as the average (median?) opinion =p
 

Instatewaiter

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@Instatewaiter and @skinMD that none of us think we have some special "lock" on medicine rankings
No, I'm pretty sure I have a special lock on medicine rankings.

It's not like a career path is going to be too terribly divergent coming from Hopkins vs Duke or even Emory or Northwestern - if we think about it like a chess game and there are specific goals in the candidate's mind, then maybe some distinction is important but it almost never is..
No, I'm pretty sure we all know that you won't be able to get a job from Emory. It's cute of you to act like there's a life below the top 4 programs. Because there's not.

IM2GI said:
Carry-on and rank away, as long as everyone reading this forum knows there is a big asterisk next to everyones rankings.
Well with the exception of my rankings which are above reproach. Plebians.
 
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