HOw do you feel about "walk up" clinics in the supermkt?

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...Look I'm against bigger gov also...

Sure you are. Except you're willing to give the government control of the most important aspect of most peoples lives, namely their income.

It does cut both ways, you know. If your caring government can force employers to pay an arbitrary salary it can also be seduced by the mob to cut your salary with the justification that it's not fair for you to make more than your neighbor.

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Sure you are. Except you're willing to give the government control of the most important aspect of most peoples lives, namely their income.

It does cut both ways, you know. If your caring government can force employers to pay an arbitrary salary it can also be seduced by the mob to cut your salary with the justification that it's not fair for you to make more than your neighbor.


Unfortunately this already happens, I'm not sure if you realize yet (what yr are you), but everytime a health insurance company me pays for my services, I am succumbing to a form of socialization. My salary is to a large extent, already predetermined. Meanwhile, fatcat insurance executives, make multiples of my practice income. I often find it ironic that many in the healthcare field argue about preventing more socialization, when in fact, we already exist in that state. The government has proven superior administrative capabilities in this arena (Medicare). It stands to reason that they would succeed (with the best intentions) in promoting a more widespread socialized system. That system might include :)eek: ) walmart having to provide healthcare, or at least some form of contribution to the greater good (employing the local high school dropouts does not count). Or would you rather have just yourself (doctor?) providing help to those that need it?
 
And the funnny thing is, PBEA, that I'm actually an economic liberal. Hell, I'm almost progressive compared to you who are extremely conservative in your economic views. Conservative, I mean, because you cling grimly to the way things used to be while I embrace change.

You're conservative to the point where you advocate what amounts to good old-fashioned orthodox socialism. Hey, set your mind free. Be progressive. How about we try some market economics for a change?


If you say so, but you seem to sponsor the notion that corporations are not culpable. That is to say that they are not responsible, AT ALL, for their actions. All in the name of capitalism? Seems pretty neo-con to me. Your gonna sit there and tell me its OK that wallly makes a billion/yr when it sends jobs and money overseas, then turnaround and dump his employees welfare on our gov. Because that's where it ends up you know. WE pay for their healthcare with our taxes, GET IT!

What happens to your "low margin" argument now? POOF, I say.
I think you have been seduced by the "clever" smiley face that frequents their advertisments. You know the one, he goes around knocking pennies off the price, saving all that money for the consumer.:)
 
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Unfortunately this already happens, I'm not sure if you realize yet (what yr are you), but everytime a health insurance company me pays for my services, I am succumbing to a form of socialization. My salary is to a large extent, already predetermined. Meanwhile, fatcat insurance executives, make multiples of my practice income. I often find it ironic that many in the healthcare field argue about preventing more socialization, when in fact, we already exist in that state. The government has proven superior administrative capabilities in this arena (Medicare). It stands to reason that they would succeed (with the best intentions) in promoting a more widespread socialized system. That system might include :)eek: ) walmart having to provide healthcare, or at least some form of contribution to the greater good (employing the local high school dropouts does not count). Or would you rather have just yourself (doctor?) providing help to those that need it?

I hope you're being sarcastic about the government having superior administrative capabilities.

As for having the best intentions, you are naive. At the very best your elected representatives will vote more socialism into law in order to pander to their voters, many of whom believe in free lunches even though there is no such thing. It is all downhill from there.

So are you for the government dictating your salary or are you against it? I'm not sure.

I most certainly am against socialized medicine including the quasi-socialistic system which we have today. You imply that somehow because I am forced to practice in it that I somehow approve. One of the reasons I like the idea of walk in clinics at Wal Mart is that, presumably, the patients will pay out of their own pockets and thus have a pretty good idea what their health care is costing them. This is not a bad thing and is the polar opposite of socialism.

I think the way we try to implement health insurance is crazy. Everybody wants an expensive policy that covers almost everything and masks the real cost from the consumer. I think it would be better if people were forced to pay out of pocket for their routine health care and only carried insurance for major medical conditions. When I was a resident at Duke, for example, health insurance for my family was around $1000 per month of which I paid about $250. There is no way in hell we used anything close to $12000 worth of health care. I went to the doctor once, my kids went several times and my wife had an annual exam. We have drug bill of about 100 per month for my ADHD son and that's about it. I would have rather been given the $12000 in salary and bought my own major medical insurance coverage for a lot less, paid for most things out of pocket, and probably have a good amount of money left at the end of the year. We did a variation of this when I was self-employed.

Health insurance is a business like any other. They also try to drive down their costs. Agreeing to a reimbursment schedule from a private health insurance company is not socialism. In other words, the fact that they aren't paying you what you want is just tough luck for you (and me) and life in the jungle among the predators. You don't have to take insurance. Some physicans do not and do pretty well. Some take insurance and make up for low reimbursement by high volume a la Wal Mart. Many, many physicians in my home state don't take medicaid because they lose money on it. With the exception of medicaid and medicare, market forces do determine what you will get paid. Unfortunately it doesn't always work in our favor.

On another note, why on earth do you want more money? Aren't you just stealing it from the needy? Why don't you work for the "living wage" and refund the rest.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
 
If you say so, but you seem to sponsor the notion that corporations are not culpable. That is to say that they are not responsible, AT ALL, for their actions. All in the name of capitalism? Seems pretty neo-con to me. Your gonna sit there and tell me its OK that wallly makes a billion/yr when it sends jobs and money overseas, then turnaround and dump his employees welfare on our gov. Because that's where it ends up you know. WE pay for their healthcare with our taxes, GET IT!

What happens to your "low margin" argument now? POOF, I say.
I think you have been seduced by the "clever" smiley face that frequents their advertisments. You know the one, he goes around knocking pennies off the price, saving all that money for the consumer.:)

Culpable is a loaded word. Importing cheap consumer goods is not a crime. We have been doing it since long before I can remember and long before their was any such thing as Wal Mart.

Making money is also not a crime. Neither is making a lot of money. Sorry. It may offend your sensibilities but that's just your own peculiar moral code which you need to stop trying to force down our throats.

And they do not dump their employees welfare on the government. I reiterate, their employees welfare is none of their business. They pay a competitive wage for unskillled work, offer some limited benefits, and do not run concentration camps from which they draw slave labor. If Wal Mart's employees didn't have their jobs then the government would still be responsible for their welfare, would they not? What you're telling me is that by the simple act of hiring somebody for a job I am now responsible for his health insurance, food stamps, section eight housing, and child care.

Naturally, the effect of pressure of this type on the big box stores is going to result in fewer jobs. I noticed one cashier at Target running eight automated checkout stations. This is the wave of the future and in about ten year the debate on Wal Mart providing a living wage will be moot. The distributors will start stocking all of the shelves (as they do for most groceries which is why the "stockboy" is disappearing) and the checkout will be automated with a few high value employees supervising things. Automation is the response of every industry to increased labor prices.
 
I hope you're being sarcastic about the government having superior administrative capabilities.

Definitely not sarcastic. Medicare administrative burden roughly 5%, computerized billing, timely payment, they are, by far, the single largest payer in the country with the BEST performance. Take 99% of the private insurers and you run into 20-30+% administrative burden, piece-meal effieciency, skewed non-standard policies, and WAY more red-tape then most people believe. When my staff communicates with these companies, I feel like we are talking to a crime syndicate, or the old corrupt soviet gov. In the meantime I get the shaft, but hey according to you all's fair, right. They must be doing something right, I mean their CEO's all seem to make six figures, score another victory for capitalism? I don't think so.

As for having the best intentions, you are naive. At the very best your elected representatives will vote more socialism into law in order to pander to their voters, many of whom believe in free lunches even though there is no such thing. It is all downhill from there.

I don't trust any politicians, anymore, and I have lost my faith in the people's voice. The only avenue that works is pouring money into "our" representatives coffers to buy their votes. It been going downhill for awhile, but hey its easier going downhill, much like turning your head and ignoring real problems (like healthcare, education) and pretending to worry about Wally's bottomline (who gives afu$k about that).

So are you for the government dictating your salary or are you against it? I'm not sure.

I've covered this? my salary is predetermined, for that matter as an ER doc yours probably is too, by the fees paid by the semi-socialist system we reside in. If you want to get specific, that is private ins vs government ins, I'd take gov hands down, they pay better, and are less of a hassle to deal with. Surprised? many people probably are, but that is the reality. So much for market-economics (at least for healthcare).

I most certainly am against socialized medicine including the quasi-socialistic system which we have today. You imply that somehow because I am forced to practice in it that I somehow approve. One of the reasons I like the idea of walk in clinics at Wal Mart is that, presumably, the patients will pay out of their own pockets and thus have a pretty good idea what their health care is costing them. This is not a bad thing and is the polar opposite of socialism.

OK, now we are getting somewhere. You agree this is "quasi-socialist" healthcare. That is step one. I know I'm off topic with the clinics (they will probably water-down the care americans receive, all in the name of the almighty dollar, score another for capitalism? I don't think so), but we are discussing the larger problem here. Step two is trying to figure a better way. Wallyworld isn't it, IMO.

I think the way we try to implement health insurance is crazy. Everybody wants an expensive policy that covers almost everything and masks the real cost from the consumer. I think it would be better if people were forced to pay out of pocket for their routine health care and only carried insurance for major medical conditions. When I was a resident at Duke, for example, health insurance for my family was around $1000 per month of which I paid about $250. There is no way in hell we used anything close to $12000 worth of health care. I went to the doctor once, my kids went several times and my wife had an annual exam. We have drug bill of about 100 per month for my ADHD son and that's about it. I would have rather been given the $12000 in salary and bought my own major medical insurance coverage for a lot less, paid for most things out of pocket, and probably have a good amount of money left at the end of the year. We did a variation of this when I was self-employed.

Exactly, your experience shows why this is already a socialist system. Yet, the blind lead the blind, when they tout the market economy, and the "positive" effects on the healthcare that our citizens receive. This isn't about a free lunch (were you looking for a free lunch when you paid for your insurance? does not sound that way to me). This is about people who already pay privately into the health insurance pool (to spread risk), and then turn around and pay again (with taxes) to support Wally's employees healthcare, just so he can keep the change. We get forced into the system, because most have no choice (unless you are otherwise wealthy) and that's the way it is. Wally is winning hands down, we are losing hands down, and the government has thus far done little to mitigate what is only going to be a larger and larger problem.

Health insurance is a business like any other. They also try to drive down their costs. Agreeing to a reimbursment schedule from a private health insurance company is not socialism. In other words, the fact that they aren't paying you what you want is just tough luck for you (and me) and life in the jungle among the predators. You don't have to take insurance. Some physicans do not and do pretty well. Some take insurance and make up for low reimbursement by high volume a la Wal Mart. Many, many physicians in my home state don't take medicaid because they lose money on it. With the exception of medicaid and medicare, market forces do determine what you will get paid. Unfortunately it doesn't always work in our favor.

You are countering your own statements here? First it is socialist, then it isn't, make up your mind. You were right the first time, it is socialist. It just isn't often portrayed that way because a private company is pulling the strings, by definition it would seem capitalist and for the CEO's, and stock holders, it is, but for the participants (consumer, provider, employee) it is socialist through and through. It's a clever guise, nothing more. It's true some physicians don't take insurance, they are the exception. In my neck of the woods 100% of the population is on some form of health insurance (unless they don't qualify for medicaid), so yes, the answer has been to increase volume, but that sucks for everyone (except for the millionare ceo, etc) and is only a short term solution.

On another note, why on earth do you want more money? Aren't you just stealing it from the needy? Why don't you work for the "living wage" and refund the rest.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident


C'mon, I'm as interested in a buck as the next guy. I'm not advocating as some kind of saint. I don't take medicaid either. I do believe in the free market for most things, I just think some limited oversight is needed in some areas where the balance is totally skewed in favor of the predator, and the prey are truly powerless with no place to turn. I'm not talking free lunch, I'm talking Freedom.
 
Very true. But if employers don't pay liveable wages or benefits, the government pickups up the tab in welfare.

So since peole need money and healthcare whether or not walmart pays for it, i would rather have the walmart corporation pay for it than the us government. As i believe for all the other big box corporations.

Again, the government doesn't have to pay Welfare, they choose to. Also, Walmart is heavily taxed, and the reality is that Walmart is probably paying for the Welfare that they are "dumping on" Nobody has to offer these people welfare. We as a society could say "No benefits." This has nothing to do with Walmart, who would love for Welfare to not pick up the tab. They would still have workers and might get struck with lower tax rates. Here in Miami, Sales Tax is 7% of GROSS sales. Think about what that number is on Walmart's sales. There prices HAVE to compensate lower so people can still pay with the tax that pays for the programs.

If you want to claim that it is actually the people paying the 7%, that is fair, though it is antithetical to economic theory and the fact that Walmart is bringing in the money that they cannot keep. However, I would then say that this is a far bigger burden that Walmart. Maybe we should REGULATE our government and leave low cost retailers alone.
 
Again, the government doesn't have to pay Welfare, they choose to.

See, this is why I hate the economics mindset: it's totally devoid of any sort of social responsibility. (Not mad at you, Miami_med, just ranting in general.) I agree that welfare is often abused, but if the government stopped it altogether, there would be a lot of people in hell of a lot of trouble. And don't say that they would be helped by their neighbors and community -- honestly, how many people will even give a quarter to the homeless guy on the corner? For better or worse, our collective mindset is very self-centered; we'll help out family and close friends, but people we haven't met have nothing to do with us and therefore totally undeserving of our empathy? Not cool, guys.
 
See, this is why I hate the economics mindset: it's totally devoid of any sort of social responsibility. (Not mad at you, Miami_med, just ranting in general.) I agree that welfare is often abused, but if the government stopped it altogether, there would be a lot of people in hell of a lot of trouble. And don't say that they would be helped by their neighbors and community -- honestly, how many people will even give a quarter to the homeless guy on the corner? For better or worse, our collective mindset is very self-centered; we'll help out family and close friends, but people we haven't met have nothing to do with us and therefore totally undeserving of our empathy? Not cool, guys.

The problem with "social responsibility" is that it is a very abstract term, with no real definition. It degenerates into someone telling someone else what to do. I feel a strong sense of social responsibility. I have participated in charity for my entire life, and I have donated money to causes I believe in. I don't have the statistic now (I will try and find it), but after the majority of the world's great catastrophes in the last few years, the private citizenry in the US has donated more money than any of the socialist governments in Europe. I don't give money to homeless people, because they often use it on things I don't support. I have helped private charities (like the Salvation Army) that offer things to the homeless that I do support. I would like to give less money to the government, which gives money to programs and causes that I do not agree with.

Am I socially irresponsible because I believe that individuals can do a better job than the government? What is social responsibility? Do you decide? If I disagree, should I have the big guns of the IRS taking my earned income to redistribute for your sense of social responsibility? People WERE NOT by and large dying in the streets before modern welfare, regardless of what the politicians will tell you. Why should you, or anyone else have the right to tell me how my earned income should be spent?

By the way, I am not offended, and I do not intend to offend you.
 
See, this is why I hate the economics mindset: it's totally devoid of any sort of social responsibility. (Not mad at you, Miami_med, just ranting in general.) I agree that welfare is often abused, but if the government stopped it altogether, there would be a lot of people in hell of a lot of trouble. And don't say that they would be helped by their neighbors and community -- honestly, how many people will even give a quarter to the homeless guy on the corner? For better or worse, our collective mindset is very self-centered; we'll help out family and close friends, but people we haven't met have nothing to do with us and therefore totally undeserving of our empathy? Not cool, guys.

This isn't just an "economics mindset". It's worse then that, to me this is more backwards "new conservative" ideology. There's actually a big difference between the old republican mindset (who is now somewhere just left of center) and the new conservative "ideal" (which is just a collection of socialisms, and soundbytes on government affairs). I actually admit to being a registered republican, but in no way like the direction that it is headed.
 
This isn't just an "economics mindset". It's worse then that, to me this is more backwards "new conservative" ideology. There's actually a big difference between the old republican mindset (who is now somewhere just left of center) and the new conservative "ideal" (which is just a collection of socialisms, and soundbytes on government affairs). I actually admit to being a registered republican, but in no way like the direction that it is headed.

I'm a registered libertarian, and I have disagreed with about 95% of what the current administration does. Don't peg me as "neocon" because I believe in Free Market Economics. I want to do the most good for the most people. I believe that this is done in the Free Market. My "New Conservative Ideaology" can be traced back to Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Locke. There are also hundreds of papers that came out of the Austrian School of Economics in the 1930s that correlate to what I am saying. My "New Conservative Ideaology" is neither new or conservative.
 
I'm a registered libertarian, and I have disagreed with about 95% of what the current administration does. Don't peg me as "neocon" because I believe in Free Market Economics. I want to do the most good for the most people. I believe that this is done in the Free Market. My "New Conservative Ideaology" can be traced back to Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Locke. There are also hundreds of papers that came out of the Austrian School of Economics in the 1930s that correlate to what I am saying. My "New Conservative Ideaology" is neither new or conservative.


Whoa, big fella. I'll try and not peg you OK (but if you walk like a duck, and talk like a duck, then guess what?) I think our forefathers had other things on their minds then healthcare, not an oversight really, how on earth could they predict that healthcare would grow to consume 15-20% of the GDP. I've already stated my support for the free market for many industries, so don't put words in my mouth. The disconnect happens when you equate the health premiums that I pay (as a small business owner) with capitalism. Healthcare is ALREADY heavily regulated, and you sit here and allude otherwise. It is not the free-market you claim it is. That fact, alone, is enough for me to get pissed when wallly gets to dump his employees on my tax burden. Why should he get away with that? Welfare isn't going anywhere, and wally knows it, thats probably why he put the minute clinics in house. The way he sees it, he collects a percentage of the fees/lease anyway, so he gets twice the money (1st he pockets the health premiums that he doesn't give to his employees, 2nd he collects when they visit his clinics). He's fargin brilliant,really, score a double on that one for capitalism? I don't think so. Of course this amounts to some kind of twisted conflict of interest, but who cares wally's makin buck, yeeehhhaaaaa.
 
Whoa, big fella. I'll try and not peg you OK (but if you walk like a duck, and talk like a duck, then guess what?) I think our forefathers had other things on their minds then healthcare, not an oversight really, how on earth could they predict that healthcare would grow to consume 15-20% of the GDP. I've already stated my support for the free market for many industries, so don't put words in my mouth. The disconnect happens when you equate the health premiums that I pay (as a small business owner) with capitalism. Healthcare is ALREADY heavily regulated, and you sit here and allude otherwise. It is not the free-market you claim it is. That fact, alone, is enough for me to get pissed when wallly gets to dump his employees on my tax burden. Why should he get away with that? Welfare isn't going anywhere, and wally knows it, thats probably why he put the minute clinics in house. The way he sees it, he collects a percentage of the fees/lease anyway, so he gets twice the money (1st he pockets the health premiums that he doesn't give to his employees, 2nd he collects when they visit his clinics). He's fargin brilliant,really, score a double on that one for capitalism? I don't think so. Of course this amounts to some kind of twisted conflict of interest, but who cares wally's makin buck, yeeehhhaaaaa.


I never claimed that healthcare wasn't regulated. I am claiming that it is OVER regulated. I just don't think that Walmart is the culprit. If you have any questions as to what I think about economics and medicine, feel free to visit my blog. Again, Walmart DIDN'T MAKE WELFARE. You are claiming at worst that they are evil for adapting to an artificial market condition created by the government interfering in the free market. Walmart gives people jobs. They do not control what the government does. Why do you keep on assuming that Walmart OWES its employees health benefits? You are a small business owner, do you give ALL of your employees health benefits? If you do, do all of the people you contract with do this? Why do we even think that this is a good system? Your WHOLE ARGUMENT is based on a false assumption that a successful entreapenur OWES wages in excess of market demand in the form of specific benefits.

Why is health insurance the big thing anyway? Is Walmart evil for not giving its employees free food, free housing, free social advise. Walmart is not a mother. It is a company. It offers a set pay rate. People CHOOSE to accept that pay rate. They then use that money to purchase goods on the free market (including food, housing, health, etc...). Some companies offer health insurance as an incentive. Walmart has no trouble finding workers, so it doesn't offer this incentive. If people thought that they could do better, or that they could get health benefits for the same work at another company, they wouldn't work for Walmart.

Also, Walmart doesn't make its employees shop at its clinics. If the employees choose to go there, then Walmart is HELPING them again, by allowing them to purchase healthcare at a cheaper price than they would find elsewhere. Is a company evil for having a vending machine that doesn't offer free food?

My signature isn't working, but my blog is here: http://medicaleconomics.blogspot.com/
 
I never claimed that healthcare wasn't regulated. I am claiming that it is OVER regulated. I just don't think that Walmart is the culprit. If you have any questions as to what I think about economics and medicine, feel free to visit my blog. Again, Walmart DIDN'T MAKE WELFARE. You are claiming at worst that they are evil for adapting to an artificial market condition created by the government interfering in the free market. Walmart gives people jobs. They do not control what the government does. Why do you keep on assuming that Walmart OWES its employees health benefits? You are a small business owner, do you give ALL of your employees health benefits? If you do, do all of the people you contract with do this? Why do we even think that this is a good system? Your WHOLE ARGUMENT is based on a false assumption that a successful entreapenur OWES wages in excess of market demand in the form of specific benefits.

This paragraph is mostly double-talk, we arent communicating effectively. If you believe that healthcare is "OVER regulated" then who is doing the OVER regulating? gov or freemarket? My answer is freemarket, and I further state that they do a piss poor job of it. My contention is that gov can (and will?) do a much better job of it. You feel what? That healthcare is in the current state because companies like wallfart are "adapting to an artificial market condition created by the government interfering in the free market" Do you mean that the taxes Walmart pay to subsidize medicaid (like we all do) justify the cost savings they get by not providing healthcare to a large segment of the local populace? Seems like a simple numbers game (which will cost more?) What if Medicaid did not exist? Do you think walleye would turn around and give healthcare to his workers? I think he would pocket that money as found gold, just like he does for any other "target of opportunity". I'm sure you believe that we should privatize public education, or the military, I mean why not, technically your beloved "free-market" will serve the most people right. I think not, it would only lead to the same haphazard approach as our current health system.

Comparing a monster conglomerate, like wally, to me is just apples and oranges. We are just not on the same ballfield. Wally employs like a hundred people per store (unless he's trying to dodge local laws) I employ a mere handful. Don't make another comparison to mom and pop, just cause wally puts em out business, doesnt mean he is in the same business class. He is not small business, no matter how many independent contractors he has doing his work (to whom he holds no obligation, including his legal share of the tax burden) You should try comparing wally to other companies that employ similar numbers, most of who are either unionized or already receive adequate benefits. Governmental protections do exist to try and limit labor abuses, but unions fill in the gaps. Why don't you try and tell some relatively unskilled journeyman teamster, that he does not deserve healthcare or any benefits. I'd like to see that, actually I wouldnt, you might have to visit P. Bear, MD ER resident.


Why is health insurance the big thing anyway? Is Walmart evil for not giving its employees free food, free housing, free social advise. Walmart is not a mother. It is a company. It offers a set pay rate. People CHOOSE to accept that pay rate. They then use that money to purchase goods on the free market (including food, housing, health, etc...). Some companies offer health insurance as an incentive. Walmart has no trouble finding workers, so it doesn't offer this incentive. If people thought that they could do better, or that they could get health benefits for the same work at another company, they wouldn't work for Walmart.

Also, Walmart doesn't make its employees shop at its clinics. If the employees choose to go there, then Walmart is HELPING them again, by allowing them to purchase healthcare at a cheaper price than they would find elsewhere. Is a company evil for having a vending machine that doesn't offer free food?

My signature isn't working, but my blog is here: http://medicaleconomics.blogspot.com/

I'm tired, and I cant continue this rambling discussion, good night
 
The free market regulate prices by the net effect of millions of agreements between buyers and seller as to what a good or service is worth. This "collective intelligence" eventually arrives at a rational price which the seller is wiling to accept and the buyer is willing to pay. This is the best way to ensure the most availibilty of a service at the lowest possible price.

Government arbitrarily sets the price of a service and offers no alternative and no mechanism for market correction to the true price. Setting the price below the market value leads to shortages which is why the poor may have trouble finding a doctor who will accept medicaid.

A private insurance company paying you less than you want is not over-regulation but just the usual and normal operation of free markets. You want more, they want to give you less, they have a high volume of business to throw your way so they negotiate a discount.

You have a disconnect in your understanding of how governement works. In the case of capitalism, the contract is between the buyer and the seller both of whom have something of value they wish to exchange. In the case of governmental control, the contract is between the seller, the buyer, and the buyer's enforcer who can ram any price he wants down your throat. This is because the buyer wants somebody else to work and pay for the service and promises his vote to enforcer if he makes it happen.
 
By PBEA:
"This paragraph is mostly double-talk, we arent communicating effectively. If you believe that healthcare is "OVER regulated" then who is doing the OVER regulating? gov or freemarket? My answer is freemarket, and I further state that they do a piss poor job of it. My contention is that gov can (and will?) do a much better job of it. You feel what? That healthcare is in the current state because companies like wallfart are "adapting to an artificial market condition created by the government interfering in the free market" Do you mean that the taxes Walmart pay to subsidize medicaid (like we all do) justify the cost savings they get by not providing healthcare to a large segment of the local populace? Seems like a simple numbers game (which will cost more?) What if Medicaid did not exist? Do you think walleye would turn around and give healthcare to his workers? I think he would pocket that money as found gold, just like he does for any other "target of opportunity". I'm sure you believe that we should privatize public education, or the military, I mean why not, technically your beloved "free-market" will serve the most people right. I think not, it would only lead to the same haphazard approach as our current health system.

Comparing a monster conglomerate, like wally, to me is just apples and oranges. We are just not on the same ballfield. Wally employs like a hundred people per store (unless he's trying to dodge local laws) I employ a mere handful. Don't make another comparison to mom and pop, just cause wally puts em out business, doesnt mean he is in the same business class. He is not small business, no matter how many independent contractors he has doing his work (to whom he holds no obligation, including his legal share of the tax burden) You should try comparing wally to other companies that employ similar numbers, most of who are either unionized or already receive adequate benefits. Governmental protections do exist to try and limit labor abuses, but unions fill in the gaps. Why don't you try and tell some relatively unskilled journeyman teamster, that he does not deserve healthcare or any benefits. I'd like to see that, actually I wouldnt, you might have to visit P. Bear, MD ER resident"

My God, this is getting worse. Why does Walmart have an obligation that YOU don't have to its employees? Your employees need healthcare less? What do you tell them? I'll bet you don't tell them anything. Here is your salary, I expect a certain amount of work from you in return. What is this "business class" thing? Did you make that up? When you reach a magic number of employees you gain mystical obligations to be a mother figure to them. You are both businesses in a free market. Walmart has just managed to grow larger than you. At one time, they were also small. They just did such a good job that they were able to grow. Maybe you haven't.

With regards to government efficiency, I will ask you to show me a place that the government actually does an efficient job at anything. Don't tell me the VA. Every person I have ever known who has used the VA and every doctor who works there that I have spoken to disagrees with you. I agree that insurance is inefficient. There are all sorts of reasons for this. Many of them have to do with regulation, this ideal of medical egalitarianism that prevents people from being able to afford basic care so that everyone can afford a heart transplant, and the general licensure requirements of ANYTHING or ANYONE having anything to do with medical care.

I give up. We can all bow and bless the Unions and the pseudo-communist socialist state. The poor people are just too stupid to make decisions for themselves. Didn't you know? They need politicians and union bosses to make all of there contractual decisions for them. LISTEN, if no one would work for Walmart if they didn't offer Health Benefits, they would then offer them or go out of business. People CHOOSE to work for them. You keep stating that Walmart is "saving money" by not offering insurance. They are not saving money or witholding money. They are just not giving it. You have given no justifications for anything. Why do they OWE anyone this money?
 
You right wingers are all the same, your theories sound reasonable on paper, but in practice it's a freakin disaster. I'll try an example, to show the error in your ways. What if wally somehow managed to corner the market on ALL services (this is hypothetical I hope), and everybody works for wally (I cant bear the thought). You tell me, do we get health insurance from wally, or do we go on medicaid? Which is better? (for the people, not fargin wally). I'm actually afraid your going to say neither, that we don't deserve healthcare. Please don't because I would hate to "peg" you as a backwards neo-con again.
 
You right wingers are all the same, your theories sound reasonable on paper, but in practice it's a freakin disaster. I'll try an example, to show the error in your ways. What if wally somehow managed to corner the market on ALL services (this is hypothetical I hope), and everybody works for wally (I cant bear the thought). You tell me, do we get health insurance from wally, or do we go on medicaid? Which is better? (for the people, not fargin wally). I'm actually afraid your going to say neither, that we don't deserve healthcare. Please don't because I would hate to "peg" you as a backwards neo-con again.

You have already pegged me incorrectly as right-wing, might as well call me a neo-con while you're being inaccurate. I'm still waiting for answers to my previous questions. You can call me all sorts of things, but that doesn't create a reason why Walmart should have to give Health Insurance. It also doesn't give a reason why walk up clinics are bad. If you want to take business away from Walmart, provide the service better.
 
You right wingers are all the same, your theories sound reasonable on paper, but in practice it's a freakin disaster. I'll try an example, to show the error in your ways. What if wally somehow managed to corner the market on ALL services (this is hypothetical I hope), and everybody works for wally (I cant bear the thought). You tell me, do we get health insurance from wally, or do we go on medicaid? Which is better? (for the people, not fargin wally). I'm actually afraid your going to say neither, that we don't deserve healthcare. Please don't because I would hate to "peg" you as a backwards neo-con again.


Again you have it backwards. It's socialism and its extreme cousin communism that sound good on paper but end up as disasters, not capitalism.



And I wish you'd stop calling me a "neo-con." There is nothing "neo" about me. I am an old school conservative from way back before being a conservative was cool.
 
I say more power to 'em. Average people need a fast, low-cost "first line of defense" for minor problems, cuts and colds.

Yeah I, for one, have no problem with people taking this tiddly-winks crap somewhere other than an MDs door.

And it shouldn't cut into FP docs practices unless these centers somehow get the go ahead to starting functioning as primary care providers--ie managing chronic disease

they don't have prescribing power do they?
 
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