How do you prove you're a doctor?

[Hernandez]

Ok *******, when you provide a service I'll be happy to be the expert witness against you...even if its not malpractice cause then I can get paid by the lawyers and not risk being sued.

Current Concepts: Responding to Medical Events during Commercial Airline Flights

Gendreau, Mark A.; DeJohn D.O., M.P.H, Charles .

From the Department of Emergency Medicine, Lahey Clinic, Burlington, Mass. (M.A.G.); and the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute, Federal Aviation Administration, Oklahoma City (C.D.). Address reprint requests to Dr. Gendreau at the Department of Emergency Medicine, Lahey Clinic, 41 Mall Rd., Burlington, MA 01805, or at [email protected].​

I'm probably going to think these guys know what they're talking about.

Here's the law in texas:
The Texas Good Samaritan Law limits the civil liability of persons administering emergency care in good faith at the scene of an emergency or in a health care facility. This law limits the civil liability of these persons unless their actions are wilfully and wantonly negligent. This protection does not apply to care administered for or in expectation of remuneration, or by a person who was at the scene of the emergency because he or a person he represents as an agent was soliciting business or seeking to perform a service for remuneration. Also, the limited civil liability is not available for a person whose negligence was a producing cause of the emergency for which care is being administered.[35]

I hate to disagree with you, but there is no expectation of remuneration and I don't take a flight seeking to perform a service for remuneration. This is a semantic point, but unless you ask the flight crew if they are going to give you frequent flier miles first, you should be fine. But that being said, you can be sued for absolutely anything, but that doesn't mean they'll win.

Doesn't say jack about frequent flier miles not being remuneration. And it does say a lawyer can sue your ass and YOU must prove you are covered by the law...if you like those odds against a jury of your "peers" then be my guest.

Nor does it say that you can not be remunerated after the fact. EM physicians work in an ED with the expectation of remuneration, but physicians on a plane traveling do not do so with this expectation.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[f_w]

Ok *******,

The one who resorts to ad-hominem attacks tends to be wrong.

 

[f_w]

Again:

- frequent flyer miles are not payment but rather a promotional tool of individual airlines (consider looking up the conditions of use for your respective carrier. they are not negotiable and don't have a cash value. that is why we don't pay taxes on them).
- I don't perform a service in the expectation of getting paid.
- My companies malpractice policy carries a rider that covers 'incidental' professional services that I provide within the US.

Every day, I perform about 120 professional services that I potentially could be called upon to defend in court one day. I do what has to be done, if I worried about the court thing every time I put my signature under a report, I couldn't function.

And I think this discourse can do without the name calling. If someone is apt at legal research (and has access to WestLaw or something of that caliber), feel free to provide relevant precedent cases where the good samaritan law was penetrated based on frequent flyer miles, an upgrade or a thank-you card. If you can't provide that, maybe you should tone it down a bit.

 

[dynx]

Who rewards FF miles? Is it the person you "saved?" No, it's the airline. Payment would be if the person you saved gave you something of numerical value. They are not. The airline is giving you something for the inconvenience you had to undergo while on their flight.

Gee, hard to imagine this would be sooo hard to understand. And YOU called me the *******. Don't get all bitter because you foolishly gave up free FF miles. Hilarious...

Oh, I see, I didn't read the line in the law where it talked about who paid you. So since an insurance company pays you your fee when you see a patient its not remuneration? okay! not a hard concept.

 

[dynx]

Current Concepts: Responding to Medical Events during Commercial Airline Flights

Gendreau, Mark A.; DeJohn D.O., M.P.H, Charles .

From the Department of Emergency Medicine, Lahey Clinic, Burlington, Mass. (M.A.G.); and the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute, Federal Aviation Administration, Oklahoma City (C.D.). Address reprint requests to Dr. Gendreau at the Department of Emergency Medicine, Lahey Clinic, 41 Mall Rd., Burlington, MA 01805, or at [email protected].​

I'm probably going to think these guys know what they're talking about.

Is there some point here?

I hate to disagree with you, but there is no expectation of remuneration and I don't take a flight seeking to perform a service for remuneration. This is a semantic point, but unless you ask the flight crew if they are going to give you frequent flier miles first, you should be fine. But that being said, you can be sued for absolutely anything, but that doesn't mean they'll win.

That was a cut and paste of the law...not my opinion. Said "care administered for...OR...with the expectation of" not "and". So given that it is later stated that it is an affirmative defense means that lawsuits could reasonably be filed against you.

[
Nor does it say that you can not be remunerated after the fact. EM physicians work in an ED with the expectation of remuneration, but physicians on a plane traveling do not do so with this expectation.

Again, the expectation is only one component.

 

[Hernandez]

Is there some point here?

Obviously you didn't read my reply on page 1

This isn't so clear cut. A recent article Current Concepts: Responding to Medical Events during Commercial Airline Flights states that this is not considered compensation. They list this as being part of a law, but i can not find this notation in Public Law 105-137 which they attribute it to.

An important step that reduced physicians’ concern
about liability was taken in 1998, when the Aviation
Medical Assistance Act was signed into law.55,56 The
act provides limited “good Samaritan” protection to
any medically qualified passenger who provides medical
assistance aboard an aircraft.55 In addition to being
medically qualified, the assisting passenger must
be a volunteer, render care in good faith, and receive
no monetary compensation. Gifts in the form of travel
vouchers, wine, or seat upgrades are not considered
compensation. The assisting passenger must also render
medical care similar to the care that others with
similar training would provide under such circumstances.
Physicians should be aware of the provisions
of the Aviation Medical Assistance Act and recognize
its limitations.

 

[blanche]

Gifts in the form of travel vouchers, wine, or seat upgrades are not considered compensation. [/B]

wine?? and we've been bickering about travel vouchers? hot damn, i'm hoping they open up the mini cart next time.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

Oh, I see, I didn't read the line in the law where it talked about who paid you. So since an insurance company pays you your fee when you see a patient its not remuneration? okay! not a hard concept.

Yes, but the patient had a contract (policy) with said insurance company to make payment (possibly) for health care rendered...

The patron is on an airliner to travel from Point A to Point B; at no time does said patron contract or reasonably suggest that the airliner should pay for anything, let alone medical care, at any point in time...


All I can say is sure getting sued sucks as does losing everything we worked hard all our lifes for... but I sure will not pass up an opportunity to possibly save someones life in mid-air and certainly have the faith that my colleagues will not be so shallow as to pass up a similiar opportunity... Hippocrates people..

 

[c.bear]

What does everyone do if they are a resident and not yet state lisenced anywhere?

As a fourth yr med student, I waited as they asked for an MD approx 3 times. Never did they request other medical personal. I told the lady next to me, I was going to go see if they needed help from a med student if no one got up. The guy behind me overheard me and went (he did not want to go cause he was a pathologist).

 

[deleted109597]

What does everyone do if they are a resident and not yet state lisenced anywhere?

You have a limited license, and you are still a medical doctor. If they need to, they can talk to your program.

 

[Apollyon]

You have a limited license, and you are still a medical doctor. If they need to, they can talk to your program.

Not everywhere - about half the states (a little less, actually) have residents practice with a degree and the contract they give you (like New York - and, considering 1/6 of ALL residents in the US are trained in NYC, this is not insignifigant).

 

[loveumms]

This is all very interesting. I was actually part of a discussion as a medical student with a bunch of residents and a malpractice attorney. He told us that basically the Good Samaritan law can be circumvented if the doc/nurse/insert any other health care professional here does anything incorrectly. Does it happen often, no however, he said he had never seen a case but, it is still the way the law is written.

He gave us this very interesting example, which extends for any person regardless of profession (doc/bum off the street/ice cream man/ect).

You are walking around downtown inner harbor having lunch. You sit down on a bench and are eating your lunch when all of the sudden a man falls into the bay. You are watching him and realize he doesn’t know how to swim and he is screaming to you for help.

First, you could do nothing. Of course this is totally unethical but, this is the only way to protect yourself from a lawsuit. You never initiate a relationship with the drowning man hence you have no liability.

Second, you could throw him the life saver. You could save him and he might be so happy with you that he never dreams of suing you.

Third, you could throw him the life saver and accidentally hit him in the head (which shouldn’t cause any damage since it is made of a material similar to styrofoam). However, after you valiantly save him, he claims that you caused him ‘head trauma’ and decides to sue you. The attorney explained that as soon as you tried to save the man, you initiated a relationship that opens you up for a lawsuit, regardless of your intentions. He explained that the Good Samaritan law can be read similar to this and that it isn’t enough to save health care professionals from law suits.

 

[f_w]

He explained that the Good Samaritan law can be read similar to this and that it isn't enough to save health care professionals from law suits.

Could, should, possibly, maybe, theoretically......

Someone pull a relevant precedent case of WestLaw and post it here (relevant as in a physician who aided in a bona-fide emergency situation and was successfully sued under penetration of the applicable good samaritan law. not a case where someone tried to use the good samaritan law as a defense when he was sued by a deadbeat patient)

Until then, I'll do what I was trained to do and that is: assist if I am called upon (if need be, by jumping into the inner harbour).

 

[deleted109597]

Until then, I'll do what I was trained to do and that is: assist if I am called upon (if need be, by jumping into the inner harbour).

God, that would be like jumping into the East River or something. Don't know if I would be up for that. I might just grab a long stick.

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

God, that would be like jumping into the East River or something. Don't know if I would be up for that. I might just grab a long stick.

This...coming from the McNinja himself/herself

-PlAnEjaNe

 

[swimguy23]

I was swimming at my hometown pool a couple weeks ago and all the lifeguards there still know me from high school or they're siblings of my friends. While I was swimming both lifeguards get up, run to the office and then out of the pool. 2 seconds later one comes running back in over to my lane and asks me to come to the locker room.....first thought was someone had an MI and I was like ah crap.....so i get to the locker room and an elderly man had a syncopal episode, was vomiting, looked really pale, etc and had a bruise on his forehead from falling.

It was the first time I introduced myself as a "doctor" and it definitely felt weird and definitely felt like i was an imposter or something. Obviously I did only what I could.....take a quick history while i was examining him with basically no resources at all so i could talk to ems when they got there.

I know for me, that was completely reaction. It's not being holier art thou.....its doing what we've been trained to do.

Not once did I ever expect payment or anything at all. I received a thank you, which was probably one of the few ever so that was cool. After that I just went back to my lane and kept swimming. I understand people's hesistancy with litigation and everything but it almost seems to me that if you live in fear like that you're letting the (bad) lawyers or people win

 

[Mumpu]

All the litigation posturing aside, when push came to shove, how many people here would really idly stand by and watch a bystander do incorrect or inadequate CPR or other resuscitative measures and prevent completely avoidable mordibity/mortality? And how much damage do you think would (deservedly) occur to your reputation, license, and finances if it was ever discovered that you were in fact present at the scene and intentionally witheld help and medical expertise? (how discoverable is it? I bet a lot easier than you think). Conversely, every medical association and most decent common citizens and media would stand behind you if you were getting sued for rendering aid to the best of your ability given the resources and the circumstances. I'm willing to bet that there have been no breaches of the Good Samaritan law as long as no crazy or incorrect actions were undertaken within the scope of your training (i.e. not doing things that you should know not to do, like dragging around people with c-spine injuries without stabilizing the neck... I think there was a successful lawsuit because first responders paralyzed an accident victim by incorrectly moving them from the vehicle) -- no intelligent court would risk setting a precedent that would basically immediately destroy all good-faith first aid.

When I used to be a firefighter/EMT in Pennsylvania, the state law was that as a trained emergency responder you were obligated to stop at the scene of car accidents if no emergency personnel was there yet. Failure to stop, if discovered, was punishable by immediate and permanent revocation of your license.

No one is expecting a dermatologist to engange in a full-bore Cor 0 mid-air (although the latest revision of the ACLS is so easy, the caveman could learn it) but really, my MS3s can do "sick-not sick" and BLS with AED.

 

[kylek044]

DID ANYONE SEE THIS?

Doctors deliver baby on Delta flight

By GIOVANNA DELL'ORTO, Associated Press Writer Fri May 25, 7:09 PM ET

ATLANTA - Two doctors on a Delta Air Lines flight from Germany delivered a baby in the aisle of the plane and resuscitated him when he wasn't breathing, officials said.


Delta Flight 131 to Atlanta was over the Washington area when a woman about 32 to 36 weeks — or nine months — pregnant went into labor Wednesday afternoon, prompting an emergency stop in Charlotte, N.C., about nine hours into the flight.

Though the baby boy wasn't breathing when he was born, he was "like a normal newborn" by Friday, one of the doctors who helped deliver him said.

The baby was born in front of the first seats after first class, one of the roomiest aisles in a plane. Using a stethoscope that was part of medical equipment onboard, the doctors realized the baby had a very slow or arrested heartbeat as the woman was in labor.

"Delivering a baby in an aisle of a plane isn't an easy thing to do," one of the doctors, Dr. Robert Vincent, a pediatric cardiologist with Children's Healthcare of Atlanta, said Friday. "I didn't think the child would survive."

Vincent worked with Dr. Dieter K. Gunkel, an adult cardiologist from Savannah, Ga., to deliver the baby. When he was born, he was blue and wasn't breathing or moving. Vincent started chest compressions and Gunkel did mouth-to-mouth breathing until the boy "pinked up," Vincent said.

"We were flying by the seat of our pants," Vincent said, adding that he didn't even realize baby was a boy until his birth was announced to applauding passengers.

Vincent said the baby weighed about seven pounds. His name wasn't available.

The mother, whose identity was not released, was taken to a hospital with the baby. About an hour after the emergency landing, the flight continued to Atlanta, officials said.

"It was a heroic effort by our flight attendant crew and our customers on board who were fortunately doctors," said Delta spokeswoman Betsy Talton.

Doctors usually discourage pregnant women to fly at the ninth month, but Talton said Delta has no policy to deny boarding. Other airlines, including Lufthansa and Northwest Airlines, require a medical certificate for women who are at the 36th week of pregnancy.

 

[Testcase101]

There has been some good discussion on this topic, no need to repeat the evidence that counter your statement, but I have a few points to add.

1. In addition to state "Good Samaritan" laws, there is a federal law protecting individuals who provide medical assistance on an airplane. It was called the "Aviation Medical Assistance Act of 1998." There is no exclusion regarding payment for services.

2. It is important to keep in mind that we are discussing civil liability, and therefore cases are decided by a judge, not by a "jury of your peers."

 

[tibor75]

Could, should, possibly, maybe, theoretically......

Someone pull a relevant precedent case of WestLaw and post it here (relevant as in a physician who aided in a bona-fide emergency situation and was successfully sued under penetration of the applicable good samaritan law. not a case where someone tried to use the good samaritan law as a defense when he was sued by a deadbeat patient)

Until then, I'll do what I was trained to do and that is: assist if I am called upon (if need be, by jumping into the inner harbour).

agreed.

Being paranoid about being sued is no way to be a doctor or to live your life. Until a doctor is successfully sued, I'll continue to provide assistance anyway I can. If somebody wants to give me money, I'll say no. If the guy I 'save' is a bar owner and invites me for a free drink, I'll say "sure" and only a fool would consider that payment.